Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[Indigo Jeans]

No, I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding. standardtoaster, we were talking about how in Brawl (not sure if it happens in melee as well), if you hit someone while they're charging a smash, your attack's knockback is increased by 20%. However, this doesn't apply to ness's up/down smashes.

 

[standardtoaster]

Ok. Now I understand. Very strange it doesn't happen on up/down smash. O_o

 

[Two-Ell]

Okay so I wasn't sure if I should make a thread of this because I usually have doubts about work I do. I didn't want to make a thread about all this and end up being embarrassed from learning this is commonly known

How familiar are you all with the Slow-Dash? Basically it's a slower version of a character's dash(by slower I mean both the animation and distance covered opposed to normal). It's something that's actually known by Peaches although not purposely done. The usual way a Peach main encounters it is from failing to perform a bonewalk(if you don't know what bone walking is. It's canceling the end frames of Peach's foxtrot with a turnip pull for a forward slide during the pull animation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogQymEkTeqc&#t=8s)

Peach mains usually don't pay much attention to it considering Peach runs pretty slowly(I've known about it for the longest time from when I was learning bonewalking). Razmakazi came up to me though and asked how to perform it. I learned the input pretty easily and taught him how to do it. He mentioned that while he probably may not make use of it with Peach he wanted to learn it for his other secondaries. He told me he's seen MikeHAZE use it in matches as a mind game.

That led me to wanting to mess around with it using different characters. I know this isn't something major, but it's become pretty interesting to me. It's one of those things people may overlook, but may actually make some interesting applications to gameplay if it was given a bit of attention.

To describe this a bit more a character's slow-run is roughly about the same speed as their walk. It also shares a property of walking in which you can actually control how slow the character runs. Aside from the speed it shares the same properties as a normal dash. You can dash attack or DAC into Usmash(or gatling smash ala Falco/Snake). You can also just shield during the slow run and even dash again out of shield with your normal run if you prefer. Imagine Falco/Snake/Sheik DACUS'ing you out of what basically is a walk, but looks like a run.

I made some videos of different characters doing a normal dash back and forth over FD. Then I perform their slow-dash(I kinda may mess up a few times, but I'm sure you can tell when I've done it right). Some character's slow dashes are pretty noticeable. I also do Falco and Snake's DAC out of it as well.

Now, I apologize for the quality of the videos. I was a bit hasty and just kind of slapped them together. I will gladly upload the replay files so you can try viewing for yourself on your wii. Here are the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsKo4MXD0Ak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzHDcM2kiGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MISaPQK4Sw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlenZyynvgw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzVfR86faA8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJjoH9kMlzc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEy6gCsxYjM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T90TVAN8gc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McLX8uulius

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFp-osyzUCs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP9Uy_MqXqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkjSO7NyBI #2

I made a second sonic video because I wanted to give attention to a peculiar slide sonic does during an incomplete slow-run. I let him reach the end frames of the foxtrot(where the character begins to stop and return to their neutral/standing animation), but I don't push forward enough for him to enter the slow-run. He does a sliding version of his end foxtrot(different from the skid characters do when you stop during the dash).

Oh and I suppose I'll describe the input. It's quite difficult to do the first time, but once you done it. It will seem pretty simple. It's only a matter of getting used to the timing for the char you're using. Each vid I did was made with no practice with the specific character in it. Now I learned this with Peach at normal game speed in training mode, but it might be a bit different with other characters.

What you want to do is initiate a foxtrot with the character. The window for the entire input is essentially the length of time you see the smoke at the characters feet when they start their dash. When the foxtrot is initiated you will let the analog stick drift back to it's neutral position(or at least let it move back enough so that it passes threshold of the game recognizing it as no longer being tilted).When the dash smoke is in full bloom(the character is beginning to stop in place) lightly tilt the stick forward again. They should be continuing their run at a slow speed just as they appear to begin stopping(you'll see the stopping animation flash by for a small fraction of a second in some characters).


My apologies if all this was for something you guys may already know about. It was a nice/fun thing to explore for me and I wanted to bring it here on the chance it wasn't generally known. I'm sorry if this needs it's own thread. Let me know if I should make one and I'll clear out this post and create a thread for it.

Thanks for your guys' time

 

[Pikabunz]

I'm sure it's commonly known. I always use the slow run to treadmill on the edge as a taunt. :D

 

[Two-Ell]

Oh okay I see. I wasn't sure if other characters would happen by it. I feel bad for writing all of that now lol.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is going to be kind of vague, and perhaps even incorrect, but, please bear with me.

Using Sheik's F-Smash at the edge of a stage can move her further forward than she would normally be able to walk/run/roll to. If I'm not mistaken, that state of being closer to the edge than normal can be held (probably by crouching or not moving; I don't have a Wii to test this with right now).

I was just wondering about that...How would it affect, say, a buffered Dash Attack or DACUS toward the edge? Do other characters have moves that cause a similar effect?

While it probably wouldn't go anywhere even if other characters could do it, the possibilities seem quite useful. Maybe an easier way to do the DK Up-B invincibility trick? Being able to Baton Pass with Pokémon Trainer on any stage?

I can't remember if aerials can "clank" with and cancel grounded moves (though I know that the aerial animation would keep going), but perhaps a Dash Attack in such a situation would neutralize the hitbox on an aerial, push you off the stage, and allow you to punish?

 

[MonkUnit]

Baton Pass?

 

[Two-Ell]

Down B

I never knew PTs called it that though.

 

[Pikabunz]

I think it's switching without the lag.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think it's switching without the lag.

This. Some people call it Zero Switching.

 

[MonkUnit]

That is incredibly silly.

 

[Kinzer]

I can't remember if aerials can "clank" with and cancel grounded moves (though I know that the aerial animation would keep going), but perhaps a Dash Attack in such a situation would neutralize the hitbox on an aerial, push you off the stage, and allow you to punish?

At the very least, there are some aerials that strangely enough can clank with things they would not normally. Zero Suit's Nair is the biggest example I can think of right now. I imagine you could use that as a base to make attempts to find out what you're looking for... Maybe(?).

 

[T-block]

It's not any sillier than Bonewalking or other names like that >=(

Baton Passing or Zero Switching is the AT where the next pokemon emerges from a non-grounded pokeball. This can occur from a platform disappearing from underneath you, or from being on the back edge of a moving platform.

 

[MonkUnit]

At least it isn't as silly as Peach players "wisping." It's just an auto cancel fair.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I like naming my character's moves after pokemon moves, too

gyro is gyro ball

laser is zap cannon

rotor arm is splash

 

[T-block]

Actually, we have a lot of silly awesome names for Squirtle's stuff too.

Like... a simple jump out of a pivot is called shellslinging =D

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Like... a simple jump out of a pivot is called shellslinging =D

I didn't know that. I've always said "jumping out of a shellshift."

 

[Kinzer]

At least it isn't as silly as Peach players "wisping." It's just an auto cancel fair.

I think you mean "wasping."

And you people should take at Sonic's alphabet soup sometime too. We have a stage-specific tech that's just basically wall-jumping off the diamond in the mid-underside of the stage.

It's about as long as the first four words of this sentence, spaces included.

 

[MonkUnit]

Yeah, I meant wasping.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

nah, I think calling roflcopter splash beats out anything you guys have

except maybe double team being a taunt, though that's backwards

 

[DeLux]

You guys could be like the ICs and name everything you discover after yourself


Like Lux Desyncs 1/2 and Hylian Desync

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I tried doing that in my yoshi djc glitch thread, and I got chopped up pretty badly by leaf

boy, did I learn my lesson

 

[T-block]

I didn't know that. I've always said "jumping out of a shellshift."

Nobody really uses it. I think we should start. It's a cute term =x

You guys could be like the ICs and name everything you discover after yourself


Like Lux Desyncs 1/2 and Hylian Desync

It's been established that when I discover an AT we're calling it T-bagging.

 

[MonkUnit]

Aren't most ATs just abusing Brawl's glitchy coding?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

that's what pretty much all ATs are lol

 

[Remzi]

Okay so I wasn't sure if I should make a thread of this because I usually have doubts about work I do. I didn't want to make a thread about all this and end up being embarrassed from learning this is commonly known

How familiar are you all with the Slow-Dash? Basically it's a slower version of a character's dash(by slower I mean both the animation and distance covered opposed to normal). It's something that's actually known by Peaches although not purposely done. The usual way a Peach main encounters it is from failing to perform a bonewalk(if you don't know what bone walking is. It's canceling the end frames of Peach's foxtrot with a turnip pull for a forward slide during the pull animation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogQymEkTeqc&#t=8s)

Peach mains usually don't pay much attention to it considering Peach runs pretty slowly(I've known about it for the longest time from when I was learning bonewalking). Razmakazi came up to me though and asked how to perform it. I learned the input pretty easily and taught him how to do it. He mentioned that while he probably may not make use of it with Peach he wanted to learn it for his other secondaries. He told me he's seen MikeHAZE use it in matches as a mind game.

That led me to wanting to mess around with it using different characters. I know this isn't something major, but it's become pretty interesting to me. It's one of those things people may overlook, but may actually make some interesting applications to gameplay if it was given a bit of attention.

To describe this a bit more a character's slow-run is roughly about the same speed as their walk. It also shares a property of walking in which you can actually control how slow the character runs. Aside from the speed it shares the same properties as a normal dash. You can dash attack or DAC into Usmash(or gatling smash ala Falco/Snake). You can also just shield during the slow run and even dash again out of shield with your normal run if you prefer. Imagine Falco/Snake/Sheik DACUS'ing you out of what basically is a walk, but looks like a run.

I made some videos of different characters doing a normal dash back and forth over FD. Then I perform their slow-dash(I kinda may mess up a few times, but I'm sure you can tell when I've done it right). Some character's slow dashes are pretty noticeable. I also do Falco and Snake's DAC out of it as well.

Now, I apologize for the quality of the videos. I was a bit hasty and just kind of slapped them together. I will gladly upload the replay files so you can try viewing for yourself on your wii. Here are the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsKo4MXD0Ak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzHDcM2kiGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MISaPQK4Sw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlenZyynvgw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzVfR86faA8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJjoH9kMlzc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEy6gCsxYjM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T90TVAN8gc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McLX8uulius

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFp-osyzUCs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP9Uy_MqXqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkjSO7NyBI #2

I made a second sonic video because I wanted to give attention to a peculiar slide sonic does during an incomplete slow-run. I let him reach the end frames of the foxtrot(where the character begins to stop and return to their neutral/standing animation), but I don't push forward enough for him to enter the slow-run. He does a sliding version of his end foxtrot(different from the skid characters do when you stop during the dash).

Oh and I suppose I'll describe the input. It's quite difficult to do the first time, but once you done it. It will seem pretty simple. It's only a matter of getting used to the timing for the char you're using. Each vid I did was made with no practice with the specific character in it. Now I learned this with Peach at normal game speed in training mode, but it might be a bit different with other characters.

What you want to do is initiate a foxtrot with the character. The window for the entire input is essentially the length of time you see the smoke at the characters feet when they start their dash. When the foxtrot is initiated you will let the analog stick drift back to it's neutral position(or at least let it move back enough so that it passes threshold of the game recognizing it as no longer being tilted).When the dash smoke is in full bloom(the character is beginning to stop in place) lightly tilt the stick forward again. They should be continuing their run at a slow speed just as they appear to begin stopping(you'll see the stopping animation flash by for a small fraction of a second in some characters).


My apologies if all this was for something you guys may already know about. It was a nice/fun thing to explore for me and I wanted to bring it here on the chance it wasn't generally known. I'm sorry if this needs it's own thread. Let me know if I should make one and I'll clear out this post and create a thread for it.

Thanks for your guys' time

I did a write-up on this and a few other things a couple years back:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207061

 

[Exdeath]

Why do so many meaty attacks automatically get power shielded by a spot dodge/landing air dodge?

I'm guessing that the Z-Axis is involved.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Meaty?

My guess is that it's because the inputs for the dodge are actually done a tiny bit apart, so that a shield is input and actively blocks the attack, but you see a dodge. I've done that a couple of times. The only move that I know of that goes into the z-axis when executed is charizard's nair, because the flame on his tail actually lies on the z-axis.

 

[Toomai]

The only move that I know of that goes into the z-axis

Every hitbox in the game goes into the third axis simply by being spheres with non-zero radii. Collision detection is not flattened to just the playable plane, despite many attacks (and quite a few hurtboxes) being designed as if it were.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Okay, I should've worded that better. I'm aware that hitboxes in Brawl are actually three dimensional spheres, so what I meant to say is that the center of chairzard's nair seems to be in the Z-axis.

 

[T-block]

What do you mean by "in the z-axis"? You probably mean to say that it has a non-zero z-axis coordinate.

And yes, the flame on Charizard's tail moves off the standard plane. There are a few others though - Bowser's side-b, for example.

Can we add a term for the "standard plane" to the STL? Not sure what we would call it though.

 

[Toomai]

And yes, the flame on Charizard's tail moves off the standard plane. There are a few others though - Bowser's side-b, for example.

Just to be clear, it's only the animation that causes this. The hitboxes themselves aren't moved sideways.

Also, I don't see anything here that moves outside the playable plane:

Bowser SpecialSCatch:
Grab: bone 0, position [0,8,20]
Grab: bone 0, position [0,8,11]
SSE hitbox: bone 0, position [0,9,25]
SSE hitbox: bone 0, position [0,9,17]
SSE hitbox: bone 0, position [0,9,10]

Bowser SpecialSAirCatch:
Grab: bone 0, position [0,8,18]
Grab: bone 0, position [0,8,11]
Grab: bone 0, position [0,8,6]
SSE hitbox: bone 0, position [0,9,23]
SSE hitbox: bone 0, position [0,9,14]

 

[T-block]

But you can see it with Charizard's n-air?

I could have sworn that Bowser's side-b goes z-axis. It was neat because if he is facing one way his claw goes into the TV so he can grab people there, but if he is facing the other way, the claw comes out of the TV.

@.@

 

[MonkUnit]

Technically, all moves go into the Z axis. No move has one bone that is Z: 0 the entirety of the move.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

what about hitboxes that are attached to bone 0?

 

[Exdeath]

Can someone actually answer my question?

For an example of what I'm talking about, why is it that [Insert Character] can air dodge into an active G&W Fsmash and power shield it? I've noticed that it's more likely to happen with smaller characters.

 

[Toomai]

No move has one bone that is Z: 0 the entirety of the move.

Wrong. There's a vast amount of hitboxes attached to bones that don't animate (especially bone 0, TopN).

For an example of what I'm talking about, why is it that [Insert Character] can air dodge into an active G&W Fsmash and power shield it? I've noticed that it's more likely to happen with smaller characters.

Maybe they air dodged so close to the ground that, by the time their shield comes up and gets hit, they're still within the powershield window.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

A) They landed just outside of range but their shield is still in range so that they can power sheild
B) They contort when they land (in the animation) so the hitbox does not touch them until their buffered shield comes up
C) It's not an extended hitbox so it doesn't break through their vulnerability while landing

 

[Indigo Jeans]

GaW's FSmash is extended. :S Like, reaaaaally extended.

Toomai: well, I'll take your word for it then. I guess I just suck at knowing nair's hitbox

Though I distinctly remember there being a thread about charizard's nair, and how the active hitbox lies almost entirely in the z-axis (read: doesn't just spill into the z-axis, but its coordinates lie mainly in there, rather than in the "standard plane". good enough wording for you? ). I'll check the hitbox properties tomorrow though, just to make sure.

Xdeath you never explained what you meant by "meaty" moves...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Xdeath you never explained what you meant by "meaty" moves...

Fighting game term for timing an attack that has a hitbox that can hit on multiple frames so that the end portion of it hits. It's used to make attacks unavoidable (by overlapping a character before they can do anything if they're, say, getting up from the ledge) and to give greater frame advantage in general.