Proposal: Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament? [Now with a poll]

[B!squick]

Pretty sure you don't need one to have the other. The only correlation I'm aware of is the game.

 

[JFoldum]

That's Why people don't want to do it they are too worried about tier list. You don't need that with custom equipment I hate tier list as a whole Because you can wreck with someone low tier if you know how to play

 

[Unbounded]

I personally really want to see how an equipment metagame develops, but it's pretty evident that despite whether or not equipment meta actually will be balanced, a good chunk of the community is highly against it. We should at the very least still hold some side events or whatever with them though. Put them out in the wild and see how it goes.

 

[JFoldum]

Like I said I'm gonna help spread equipment and try to show these narrow minded smash players that this could bring in so much more to the game this could help keep smash 4 alive longer then any smash game.

 

[Roge9]

Couldn't you just make a side 3ds version tournament with customs allowed? People could just be responsible for their own 3ds and cartridge and I believe everything would be good to go. Didn't the official Nintendo tournament use custom moves with the 3ds version? How'd that go?

If the WiiU version is a pain to set up custom moves in, then that version should probably be avoided for these kinds of side tournaments.

 

[Shiznaz]

Custom moves don't harm the game at all. The first time you see the move in practice, you'll be able to prepare for it immediately after. People are already finding infinites with Rosalina, and we don't have "rules" against them anyway, so why not just bust the whole bag open?

The element of surprise has always existed in competitive games, and I firmly believe that Custom Moves should be allowed in tournaments.

Although it may be different in a fighting game, in a game like League of Legends, that I play, you go to a tournament EXPECTING to face each and every character, and if you don't, you get washed out by another player's incredible skill on an underplayed character. It's exciting.

If competitive players do NOT have that mindset, well then the game as vanilla is of a design that promotes a tier list. Custom Moves have the ability to create favorable matchups for each character, or say, a 50/50 for a character that may have a severe disadvantage. I believe that people should have to prepare for these matchups as they come, and it'll make the game way more interesting to watch, and learn.

I can already hear the screams of the casters when that Bowser Jr. Mega-Mechakoopa gets the KO because of it's huge explosion. The Jr. player pulling it out just when they need it. It's exciting, it doesn't hurt anything, and I believe we should stop being stubborn with our FD Fox only No items mentality. It's a new game, a new generation, we have the options, use them.

Equipment however is a whole different beast that should not be tinkered with. Adjusting the stats of characters can create really ridiculous combos and infinites that we have no way of controlling. Equipment will make these "equipment builds" the "best builds" for those characters, and essentially break the metagame open and we'll have another Meta Knight situation in terms of power.

There is always going to be a "best". So how about we prolong that day and create a competitive scene that can have blowouts because that Pac Man used a fruit you didn't expect.

 

[Shiznaz]

double posted pls delete

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

Equipment is kind of ludicrously unbalancing. Just for example, a ganondorf set I affectionately refer to as "turbodork" can run at nearly sonic levels of speed with +70~ish speed, with only a minor damage penalty offsetting this. It doesn't matter, of course, because Ganondork already has so much power that he can take a small hit, no problem. Also, BS like the death arrow will encourage an incredibly defensive and campy meta. Lord knows Smash tournaments are already infamous for running over time.

That's not even considering how many stupid specials there are. Spawn with a baseball bat? Heal 2% every 3 seconds for free? Faster dodge rolls, in a game where dodge rolling is already incredibly powerful? 1.3x running speed? 1.5x power on meteor smashes? Triple respawn invincibility? 1.3x power on vertical launches? 20% chance for 3x damage? They're incredibly obnoxious, power wise, and snap the balance in half.

To put the final nail in this coffin, "grinding it out" really isn't a solution. Not only are the stats and specials of equipment 100% RNG based, the dice are actively working against you due to how many probabilities there are. Not only do you need to get a wrench for a chance at equipment, you then need to get a peice of equipment over a hat, a outfit, or a custom move, and then it needs to be the right base type, and then it needs the right penalties, the right stat boosts, the right specials, and if even one of these isn't exactly top tier what you need, start from go.

Wow that is ridiculous. Not even sure why anyone is arguing after this post.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Wow that is ridiculous. Not even sure why anyone is arguing after this post.

Me neither, but I really hope it's gonna be better in the Wii U to unlock stuff (besides stages and characters).

 

[platomaker]

Again, you could very well make equipment a thing for some "gimmick" tournaments, much like brawl had mid tier tourneys. But if a certain group of people HATE TIER LISTS then think on the flipside- They WILL be a "correct" gear setup as well. Tier lists is to meta as the most broken equipment will be to meta too. The difference, is how accessible some gear is.

To compromise, you'd need to let the game be out for a few years where all pieces are probably in the hands of most players. Right now such a thing is unthinkable. I have a job ya know.

 

[Kinslayer]

That's Why people don't want to do it they are too worried about tier list. You don't need that with custom equipment I hate tier list as a whole Because you can wreck with someone low tier if you know how to play

Nothing to do with tier list. The reason it is a stupid idea is for the Sake of balance and the lack of ability to adaquately prepare against certain builds, or the potiential to create broken builds of characters.

 

[Rakurai]

Some equipment abilities really are just too strong, and don't require a gimmicky setup like the one that Link was using, as well.

IE, the Moon Launcher ability multiplies the power and damage of anything that launches at around a 30 degree angle or steeper by 1.3 times, which applies to a ridiculous number of moves.

Pretty much all of the attack/defense multipliers can be rather broken, especially if you stack them from different abilities, as they apparently stack multiplicatively in that case, rather then additively.

 

[JFoldum]

Well when someone finally plays me and shows me how broke this equipment is I'm gonna continue my case.

 

[ShredPix]

Nothing to do with tier list. The reason it is a stupid idea is for the Sake of balance and the lack of ability to adequately prepare against certain builds, or the potential to create broken builds of characters.

Potential. None of the customs moves shown (all shown courtesy on NinjaLink) have proven to be broken. Some are better than others, but that is how things are with most tings, like how certain characters are better than others. And as for preparation, it lies solely on you as you must learn who you will fight against.That's like complaining about how you didn't know how to fight a Melee Fox when you did no examination of the character in recorded matches. You must learn about your character and other characters to succeed, and this is not that large of an expansion.

 

[Kinslayer]

Potential. None of the customs moves shown (all shown courtesy on NinjaLink) have proven to be broken. Some are better than others, but that is how things are with most tings, like how certain characters are better than others. And as for preparation, it lies solely on you as you must learn who you will fight against.That's like complaining about how you didn't know how to fight a Melee Fox when you did no examination of the character in recorded matches. You must learn about your character and other characters to succeed, and this is not that large of an expansion.

You know how absurd that sounds? Trying to compare not knowing a match up due to laziness vs not knowing one because the set isn't widely used or isnt avaliable to practice against/with. melee fox has the same move set every copy of the game. His b works the same way for everyone, side b, and so on and so forth and when you unlocked fox you had access to the same stuff everyone else has. At most all you needed to do was find a fox player and play matches with him or learn him yourself. Now you are asking to spend plenty of extra time unlocking everyone's moves, setting them, and with it, or finding someone competent with the same set. Which drastically shrinks the pool of avaliable candidates to train with.

that example is terrible absolutely terrible.lol

 

[Kinslayer]

Well when someone finally plays me and shows me how broke this equipment is I'm gonna continue my case.

You've made no case, everything you've said has been absolutely dumb. For example

Everyone should post their items online when they sign up for a tournament. Making it seem as if when you post it everyone will automatically manifest all the items in their bag and will be able to make it work or will have a friends who runs the setup to perfection!

 

[N-TG]

Competitive fighting games demand a level playing field.

We cannot abide randomly generate stat modifications, full stop.

This only is my main reason for not allowing custom Equipment and Moves in tournaments. On the other hand I see that this is an opportunity to have a different way for tournaments. Like card games that have different tournaments with different sets of cards that are allowed or banned, we can have the same tournaments for Smash:

1) The "For Glory" style, no custom moves and no equipment
2) One with only Custom move sets and no equipment
3) One full on custom moves and equipment.

After that there can be variations for stages and style of equipment etc etc. But still I, personally, don't think I'll never allow or will use equipment because it adds a major random effect on the game, because there are limitless combos that you can create that can be downright broken or ruin the game for the other person.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Does no one remember how well custom stages caught on in competitive Brawl?

 

[platomaker]

Couldn't do custom stages with friends online. No standard either. Custom moves are different in that regard.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

1) The "For Glory" style, no custom moves and no equipment
2) One with only Custom move sets and no equipment
3) One full on custom moves and equipment.

You know, that just might work, and for those who don't want equipement when participating in a tourney, then just don't sign in that tournament, no need to rage on Smashboards.

 

[N-TG]

You know, that just might work, and for those who don't want equipement when participating in a tourney, then just don't sign in that tournament, no need to rage on Smashboards.

Yeah, just find some cool names and spread them around. People will start using them. It may cause a split between the communities though

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Couldn't do custom stages with friends online. No standard either. Custom moves are different in that regard.

Brawl online wasn't even really a thing. It was awful. Even with all the in-person events going on, custom stages did not catch on. Project M and its carefully crafted stages caught on before the custom stage nonsense.

 

[popsofctown]

At most all you needed to do was find a fox player and play matches with him or learn him yourself. Now you are asking to spend plenty of extra time unlocking everyone's moves, setting them, and with it, or finding someone competent with the same set. Which drastically shrinks the pool of avaliable candidates to train with.

that example is terrible absolutely terrible.lol

With melee, at most, you have to find a fox player. Your own words.
In smash 4, at most, you have to find a fox player who has fox's custom specials. Which is exactly the same as finding a fox player, because if you main fox or secondary fox, you're going to have taken the hour and a half needed to unlock his custom specials..

So yeah, it's a fair comparison.

 

[platomaker]

Brawl online wasn't even really a thing. It was awful. Even with all the in-person events going on, custom stages did not catch on. Project M and its carefully crafted stages caught on before the custom stage nonsense.

Yes, you're right about custom stages not catching on. Because they were not competitive: Final D already existed, smashville and battlefield, why even replace it? Custom stages were for casual play, and even then it was limited. Now that smash 4 has a final D mode for every stage, you can finally 'enjoy the full soundtrack of the game'- the only saving grace of custom stages from brawl.

Unlike custom stages, custom MOVES will catch on, since they change how a character is played and can alter how well they compete. The two subjects "custom stages" and "custom moves" are like night and day in this aspect. You have your gameplan, your strategy, and you can potentially come across any number of moves. Another way to look at it, its as if a number of characters really are different characters altogether. To discourage that is to discourage the use of more characters.

Those are my thoughts on it.

 

[JFoldum]

Kinslayer
So when you play me then you can say something untill then your words have no place here because obviously your too stupid to understand anything. Or you just suck and your scared for the meta to change. If your good you can beat someone with equipment as a default fighter you just suck. And untill you prove otherwise dont direct your words to me

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Yes, you're right about custom stages not catching on. Because they were not competitive: Final D already existed, smashville and battlefield, why even replace it? Custom stages were for casual play, and even then it was limited. Now that smash 4 has a final D mode for every stage, you can finally 'enjoy the full soundtrack of the game'- the only saving grace of custom stages from brawl.

Unlike custom stages, custom MOVES will catch on, since they change how a character is played and can alter how well they compete. The two subjects "custom stages" and "custom moves" are like night and day in this aspect. You have your gameplan, your strategy, and you can potentially come across any number of moves. Another way to look at it, its as if a number of characters really are different characters altogether. To discourage that is to discourage the use of more characters.

Those are my thoughts on it.

I was there. There was a ton of excitement about the prospect of being able to make hazard-free competitive stages. Many Melee players dreamed of a layout identical to Pokemon Stadium without the transformations. The stage builder allowed for that. It wasn't defective. It worked fine. It would have been perfectly reasonable to ask everyone to have Official Tournament Stage Set 2.1 on their machines before coming to the tournament.

I find it hilarious now that you have to delete all custom stages to boot up Project M. Poetic.

 

[Kinslayer]

Kinslayer
So when you play me then you can say something untill then your words have no place here because obviously your too stupid to understand anything. Or you just suck and your scared for the meta to change. If your good you can beat someone with equipment as a default fighter you just suck. And untill you prove otherwise dont direct your words to me

You're an idiot. You don't understand how inconvenient a format like this would be for most players. Until you actual enter a major in any game and get some recognition in any community shut up with your ignorant uninformed opinions. You obviously DONT have any idea of what it takes To maintain a competitive community.

 

[Themandme]

My Dr Mario can do 43 damage with one Up custom 3
Equipment needs a ban

 

[platomaker]

Hey guys, you won't accomplish anything by attacking each other, remember we're debating about "what" is right, not "who". Let the evidence stand for itself. I champion custom moves for that reason, there's a character I like using for custom moves, not that its overpowered, but definitely plays differently. If I had to return to the default it forces me to use/ignore moves I literally do not want to use.

So lets get out of the hypothetical for a moment and use a real example; lets examine falco for the next few responses. Since chain grabbing is illegal (became extinct before illegal), we find ourselves at a loss with what to do with him. The same gameplay could be done with more finesse (see: carpal tunnel), but then examine his alternate attacks- namely his laser:

He has one laser that functions as a push
You can only shoot one at a time

With this, you can discourage a lot of ledgegame, and when coupled with his improved recovery options- he can become a character that excels at interception. I'm sure other examples can be found, this is just one impression that got me thinking to support custom moves.

 

[north-note]

I tested mac with offense only at 90 atk on level 7 and 8 CPU, he's broken, but not unbeatable. since increasing attack decrease defenses, mac KO more easily. the game turn into high speed gamble that mac could easily lose or easily win depending on how fast you play. the high speed kirby can easily beat him.
the custom move can turn the game melee like.
with equipment on, the tier can turns into rock paper scissor instead. speed beat attack, attack beat defense, and defense beat speed.
any one who have something against custom move should try playing with them on once. it's really fun.
p.s. has anyone seen the official nintendo match yet, they allowed custom move.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Are people really going to host 3DS tournaments alongside Wii U tournaments?

 

[iVoltage]

I don't know everyone else's opinions, but I think that they should not be legal for major tours. Equipment is just broken, I honestly have no clue why people think it even has a remote chance to be legal. Custom moves COULD be legal but it would be confusing for the players/ TO's. Only time will tell i suppose.

 

[platomaker]

I tested mac with offense only at 90 atk on level 7 and 8 CPU, he's broken, but not unbeatable. since increasing attack decrease defenses, mac KO more easily. the game turn into high speed gamble that mac could easily lose or easily win depending on how fast you play. the high speed kirby can easily beat him.
the custom move can turn the game melee like.
with equipment on, the tier can turns into rock paper scissor instead. speed beat attack, attack beat defense, and defense beat speed.
any one who have something against custom move should try playing with them on once. it's really fun.
p.s. has anyone seen the official nintendo match yet, they allowed custom move.

How would custom moves make the game more melee like?
Everything you mentioned referred to equipment and NOT CUSTOM MOVES. The only argument you made that has some merit is that "the official nintendo match.... allowed custom move(s)"

Let's indulge the innocence of equipment since we're here. Before anything else, I'd like to say I'm against it, but lets explore it. If equipment were only limited to stat changes- even though some are hard to find- then why not? sure, let that slide. But then what about the other ones? The auto healing, low gravity, and what not? Where would you draw the line of what is acceptable? Clearly there are more choices possible than we're aware of.

In conclusion: I don't feel like sorting through that #$%^, so save the effort and simply keep all characters at "factory statistics". The moves are still standardized so let them be used.

 

[north-note]

How would custom moves make the game more melee like?
Everything you mentioned referred to equipment and NOT CUSTOM MOVES. The only argument you made that has some merit is that "the official nintendo match.... allowed custom move(s)"

Let's indulge the innocence of equipment since we're here. Before anything else, I'd like to say I'm against it, but lets explore it. If equipment were only limited to stat changes- even though some are hard to find- then why not? sure, let that slide. But then what about the other ones? The auto healing, low gravity, and what not? Where would you draw the line of what is acceptable? Clearly there are more choices possible than we're aware of.

In conclusion: I don't feel like sorting through that #$%^, so save the effort and simply keep all characters at "factory statistics". The moves are still standardized so let them be used.

oops, my bad. didn't double check my post. yes i was referring to equipment not custom move. equipment could make the game melee-like. sorry. and we should try playing the match with custom on, it really fun.

 

[RWB]

I've tested playing with an all offense Mac. I don't even have that good equipment, and I can OHKO with any smash, and my counter does 60% damage in response to medium power attacks, and OHKOs most characters as well.

 

[Nebulax]

Equipment might be alright if it was balanced. The problem lies in the fact that every debuff is usually half as prominent as the buff that comes with it. It is easy to create a character with the same balance of stats but with higher stats overall. How is that fair? For equipment to be usable, for every stat point you gain, you would really have to lose at least one stat point as well. As it is, not only are characters with equipment always better than vanilla ones, but there are other imbalances. For one, having maxed out attack definitely shines as more effective then upping the other stats. The metagame would become a mess of Little Macs and Bowsers doing 50% damage with an uncharged smash attack. Many characters would OHKO everything. And for gaining such ridiculous attributes, they would only lose a very small amount of another stat. See where I'm coming from?

 

[Unbounded]

I've tested playing with an all offense Mac. I don't even have that good equipment, and I can OHKO with any smash, and my counter does 60% damage in response to medium power attacks, and OHKOs most characters as well.

How low was your defense?

It seems like it'd be an all-or-nothing gamble since if they just countered you'd be dead and if they threw you you'd also be done for.

 

[DavemanCozy]

For the record, there are a total of 81 combinations for each fighter that you can make with their special moves. That might be a large number, but at least we can see a limit to it. Honestly, you just need to learn 2 extra moves for each fighter. I don't see that as a straining task.

With equipment, however, there are waaay too many combinations you can make. You can't expect someone to be prepared for all that.

 

[RWB]

How low was your defense?

It seems like it'd be an all-or-nothing gamble since if they just countered you'd be dead and if they threw you you'd also be done for.

Rechecking my stats, and it wasn't even an all out offensive Mac.

+102 atk, -6 def, -41 speed.

I wasn't really being sent flying any worse than usual due to my +60 defense badge. The speed loss didn't phase me either.

I think I might have overstated my smashes, but they did kill at less than 25%.

The counter just killed outright.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Although im late to the party i belive that custom moves should be allowed. NOT BADGES. These humpers can deal 70 damage with ine move. Holy crap