Proposal: Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament? [Now with a poll]

[Gamut]

I voted for custom moves only. Here's why equipment shouldn't be allowed. www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7AI2YqikC8 +Launcher/+Crits equipment pair.

 

[Random4811]

This is ISP all over again, and I won't have any part of it. If you haven't learned your lesson from 2008, then you won't learn it now.

Also, this. Just because you're salty that the inane ISP rule set didnt work out how you had hoped doesnt mean TO's that dont let everyone sodomize them and dictate how their tournaments are run are bad TOs. Sometimes, community organizers are terrible TOs because they try to represent everybody and end up not giving anyone a good experience, and sometimes people with true competitive play in mind make the best of TOs.

 

[Jack Kieser]

ITT:

* People who think that minorities don't matter because they are minorities
* People who think that getting some friends together to play Smash is the same as being a TO (and holds the same responsibilities)
* People who think that TO'ing is so easy, anyone can do it!
* People who think that, if you aren't playing what everyone else is, you go somewhere else
* People who think that the ability to play alternate forms of Smash competitively in the same space as everyone else in their community and not be segregated is "preferential treatment"
* People who think that, if your version of Smash isn't what everyone else is playing, it isn't a part of the competitive community
* People who think its ok that TOs treat players of non-standard or experimental rulesets as second-class citizens

 

[Eji1700]

There's two real issues, balance and TO, with a side issue of mii's being caught up in this.

Balance:
Custom moves seem completely fine. I've yet to see anything earth shattering or mind blowing, and I think given that there's no extremely obvious "screw you" stuff, it would be worth a shot.

Equipment on the other hand has a LOT of potential for just silly stuff, and should likely be banned on this capacity alone. There's so many random and overly powerful effects that just bring all sorts of nastiness.

Tournament organizing:

Customs- We'd need a very simple and set ruleset for this, although cloned saves should help. The only difficult issue becomes how you enforce movesets if/how they lock, or are you allowed counterpicking your moves after every match, and how much time can this waste? Time is a real issue for these things and while the system is surprisingly smooth, it's going to be less smooth if we have 15 different players mulling over their special move choices everytime someone counterpicks them. I think it can, and should be done, but we might just want to only allow initial customization before the match, and on loss, and then lock it. That way we don't wind up wasting too much time on a useless screen.

Equipment- Again, i feel like this is just a nightmare waiting to happen. Even the "landing lag gone" only stuff is somewhat hard to quickly identify, as having any equipment, even balanced, changes the equip circle from white to multicolor(or a specific one). Maybe if down the road someone can come up with a very solid ruleset that's easy to apply and enforce we can try it(if it's got enough benefits), but right now I think custom moves bring a much better reward/hassle ratio than equipment is going to.

Side question- mii's
If we're doing cloned saves, one mii of each class with neutral weight, height, and clothing(unless that doesn't matter, testing could be done, but it's not like it's important), and players can only change moves. Should be easy to enforce as mii sizes can't be quickly changed in game, and equipment has the previous easy to see circle. It helps that none of the mii's look like top tier material.

 

[Thinkaman]

ITT:

* People who think that minorities don't matter because they are minorities
* People who think that getting some friends together to play Smash is the same as being a TO (and holds the same responsibilities)
* People who think that TO'ing is so easy, anyone can do it!
* People who think that, if you aren't playing what everyone else is, you go somewhere else
* People who think that the ability to play alternate forms of Smash competitively in the same space as everyone else in their community and not be segregated is "preferential treatment"
* People who think that, if your version of Smash isn't what everyone else is playing, it isn't a part of the competitive community
* People who think its ok that TOs treat players of non-standard or experimental rulesets as second-class citizens

I feel like Jack's key point that TOs accept a community responsibility is important. I think this also applies not just to TOs, but all community pillars.

What Jack took offense to was the notion that we should tell people who want a different ruleset to hit the road and not come back. This is an attitude that has slowly creeped into our community and affected the tone of conversation. It's not something anyone says explicitly, but an undercurrent of multiple voices summed together.

I'm guilty of this as much as anyone. When a new player whines at an event about Team Attack being on, it's tempting to call him an ignorant casual or tell him to go host his own tourney if he wants to john so much. But that's not how a healthy community is built.

Jack isn't saying that TOs have an obligation to host a separate event for every person who walks in the door and thinks we should be playing Coin Battle. (Because that's obviously insane) Jack is saying that we shouldn't tar and feather them.

 

[popsofctown]

He is saying that we have an obligation to every 8 people who walk in the door and wants to play coin battle..

I think my post might have started this chain, but I mainly meant an online friend code tournament to build interest in Gatoray's format. That's actually kind of different from the moral responsibility of the people with the resources to run meatworld tournaments and etc.

 

[ChikoLad]

I voted "Allow Both", but that's vague:

I believe having traditional tournaments should remain, and only custom moves should be in them.

HOWEVER, I wanna see "Totally Custom" tournaments be their OWN thing. Separate from regular tournaments (though both could be run in the same building).

Mainly because the two types of play appeal to two different crowds, and some of us (like myself) find both styles extremely appealing.

Also, Nintendo themselves seem to want us to do custom tournaments, so why not? Anything to keep them on our side.

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Has their been any 3ds tournaments registered with customs yet? If their has it would be a huge breakthrough for smash tournaments.

 

[ChikoLad]

Has their been any 3ds tournaments registered with customs yet? If their has it would be a huge breakthrough for smash tournaments.

Other than the recent Open Tournament hosted by Nintendo, none that I am aware of.

 

[Thinkaman]

I thought the CT events did?

 

[Jack Kieser]

I feel like Jack's key point that TOs accept a community responsibility is important. I think this also applies not just to TOs, but all community pillars.

What Jack took offense to was the notion that we should tell people who want a different ruleset to hit the road and not come back. This is an attitude that has slowly creeped into our community and affected the tone of conversation. It's not something anyone says explicitly, but an undercurrent of multiple voices summed together.

I'm guilty of this as much as anyone. When a new player whines at an event about Team Attack being on, it's tempting to call him an ignorant casual or tell him to go host his own tourney if he wants to john so much. But that's not how a healthy community is built.

Jack isn't saying that TOs have an obligation to host a separate event for every person who walks in the door and thinks we should be playing Coin Battle. (Because that's obviously insane) Jack is saying that we shouldn't tar and feather them.

Thank you. This mindset of "we do things one way and one way only, and everyone else can go **** themselves" is seriously NOT a healthy way to run a community, and I'm honestly disheartened that our TOs, the people we trust with the reigns of all of our local, regional, and national events (for-money tournament or Smashfest) honestly think this way.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I have a couple ideas for a limited introduction of custom equips in Wii U tourneys specifically:

1. In a couple years when we get a definitive tier list and knowledge of each matchup, we can allow low/bottom tier characters to use equips in unfavorable matchups to even the odds
2. Present a limited number of equips with various favorable effects where the stat boost/drop ratio is even or close to it. By controlling the usable pool of equips on the TO's wii u, it might be possible to balance them
3. Require both players to have the exact same equips in all matches, eliminating any possible unfair advantages

None of this can be done on 3DSs but when the Wii U version comes out and becomes tourney standard, it might be feasable to tame the beast that is custom equips

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Id like for their to be more tournaments like those in the future.

 

[teluoborg]

I say let December come.
Make Custom OFF the standard for Wii U, and Custom ON the standard for 3DS.

OFF on Wii U because of how impractical customs would be to put in place and how it's gonna be the version everyone will play.
ON on 3DS since everyone is bringing his own save of the game.

People that want the good ol normal meta will go for the Wii U tourney, people that want that CRAZY CUSTOM EXPERIENCE will attend the 3DS one.

And the best thing is : both tournaments can be held at the same time in the same place and with the same players.

Tell me this isn't the best solution. Give me a reason why we shouldn't do both when Nintendo gave us the possibility.

 

[popsofctown]

One way you could run a tournament would be to have everyone play Smash Run 2 or 3 times at the beginning, then play the tournament using only equipments they unlocked in those Smash Run runs. Would be kind of like limited in MTG.

Removes the need to play the game for 999 hours before the tournament in order to unlock the best of the best of best equipments.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Holy crap, @ popsofctown , Smash Run drafting sounds like it'd be really fun. :D I am totally behind this idea.

 

[Lukingordex]

Tell me this isn't the best solution. Give me a reason why we shouldn't do both when Nintendo gave us the possibility.

Because custom equipment is dumb, no matter if it's in the 3ds or the Wii U version.

It's really impressive how Sakurai is skilled at trolling TOs, I'm trying to organize a online 3ds tournament with custom moves allowed and equipment banned but I'm having a serious trouble because it's not possible to know if someone is using equipment or not at online matches.

 

[popsofctown]

Holy crap, @ popsofctown , Smash Run drafting sounds like it'd be really fun. :D I am totally behind this idea.

Well I certainly would expect it to be. Would be crazy when you randomly get a strong equipment for a character you rarely play and try to play smooth lander Pikachu for the first time in tournament

Thought about making a separate thread for the idea, but that blows up in my face sometimes.

 

[Random4811]

This is ISP all over again, and I won't have any part of it. If you haven't learned your lesson from 2008, then you won't learn it now.

Also, this. Just because you're salty that the inane ISP rule set didnt work out how you had hoped doesnt mean TO's that dont let everyone sodomize them and dictate how their tournaments are run are bad TOs. Sometimes, community organizers are terrible TOs because they try to represent everybody and end up not giving anyone a good experience, and sometimes people with true competitive play in mind make the best of TOs.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well I certainly would expect it to be. Would be crazy when you randomly get a strong equipment for a character you rarely play and try to play smooth lander Pikachu for the first time in tournament

Thought about making a separate thread for the idea, but that blows up in my face sometimes.

Trust me on this: making a thread, especially in Competitive, about making a ruleset for alternate play only results in flames and pain. >_> If you do it, do it in Social, or pray to god that SamuraiPanda takes the thread under his wing.

 

[ぱみゅ]

i've been skimming through this thread and I don't remember who said it, but the Chicken Breast Analogy was simply terrible.

As a Gastronomer myself, i know that when a group of customers walks in, you must serve WHAT THEY WANT.
If they want to pay $20 and ask for no pasta instead of going KFC and pay $10 to eat just the same thing, it's their problem.
Our job as service providers is to serve them.

Another point to note is that Jack was called to host Tournaments himself, and when he said he has everyone shruged off said achievent . What's the point of the argument then?

Your view of the role is incredibly narrow and closed minded.

I found this one statement incredibly ironic. Someone wanting to try something different from the standard to be called close-minded...

He is saying that we have an obligation to every 8 people who walk in the door and wants to play coin battle..

If your community has 20 people, 8 wanting to have coin battles would be fair.


I mean, I have never understood why everyone wants to play only the standard 8and while we're at it, why having a set-on-stone standard and not a flexible set of rule recommendations). Never 2 or 1 stocked matches, never items, never non-common stages. Everything has to be what everyone else plays, and not what others (emphasis on the plural) may want to play, even if it's not for a long while.h(eck, it could be a couple games only and people still act abrassive against it).


Now, back to the topic please.

 

[Doval]

The problem I find with equipment is if we take away the effects and focus on raw number gains, we still currently have no way to gauge the actual gain for characters beyond player observation. Without concrete data to make correlations on how much each stat point effects a character overall there's simply too many unknown variables that would prevent us from reaching an objective conclusion on whether or not equipment is harmful or not.

If we do dredge up this data though, we would be able to determine stat ranges that would allow for a reasonable range of customization on characters without warping character identity and the game as a whole; that or we find the stats just completely warp game balance even in minor amounts.

If equipment turns out to be manageable within fair stat ranges then Smash would be able to experience customization similar to Dissidia's equipment system (if you can call that a fighting game) without making player skill a weaker factor.

My point however is that we first need objective measuring sticks via game data to determine anything about how much a character gains from equipment before implementing it into a tournament setting.

There's already some numbers for Attack in this thread. Although I haven't tested Speed thoroughly, it seems to follow roughly the same pattern of heavy diminishing returns past 100, because jumping height for 180 Speed isn't considerably higher than 100 Speed.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I found this one statement incredibly ironic. Someone wanting to try something different from the standard to be called close-minded...

I don't oppose side events. I don't care what events people run. I oppose the fixed definition that a TO absolutely positively must be a people-pleaser and do as the players demand.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't oppose side events. I don't care what events people run. I oppose the fixed definition that a TO absolutely positively must be a people-pleaser and do as the players demand.

That's because you're looking at it in a very black-and-white fashion.
TOs must listen to their community in order to improve their events. But you can't please everyone. In both short or large scales.
You can't just allow items if one person likes them. You can't add Hyrule Temple because two kids like to bounce on it.
BUT
If you have some spare time and setups, you can allow people to play in them, whatever rules or setups they want.
Please note that "spare time" could also apply to certain scenarios where you run weekly events and everyone's been playing the same all the time and some look like they need a refreshing pause from those rigid "standard" rules, there will be more events later.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Sorry for the derail, @ ぱみゅ . I still don't agree with using (prematurely, I might add) poll results from this thread to argue that, hey, a majority of players don't want X, so if ANY players want it, go somewhere else, you're not welcome here and we refuse to hold events for you in the same space as us, but I suppose that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, it's kinda related to the topic, but the debate got pretty steamy for a poll.
I think it's a philosophical thing that deserves discussion, but let's not forget the point of this thread. k?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Of course. Again, my apologies. Thanks for the course correction.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

If you have some spare time and setups, you can allow people to play in them, whatever rules or setups they want.
Please note that "spare time" could also apply to certain scenarios where you run weekly events and everyone's been playing the same all the time and some look like they need a refreshing pause from those rigid "standard" rules, there will be more events later.

But this isn't what was being argued. According to JK's definition, I have to wholeheartedly embrace/endorse whatever stupid format players want to play, which apparently includes setting up the bracket, running the event, and acting like I'm happy about it.

I don't have a problem with players running sub-events and using spare setups. I don't particularly have any control over it as far as 3DS units are concerned. I'll just be straight, though: if I host a 3DS event ever, I won't be hosting an equipment event.

 

[WinterShorts]

I'd assume maybe they'd have certain rules for different tournaments. I don't know, 1 tournament that tries custom moves only, a tournamen that allows both, a tournamet that allows equipment only, wtc.

But personally, custom moves are fine, equipments I believe many consider a little broken.

 

[Jack Kieser]

But this isn't what was being argued. According to JK's definition, I have to wholeheartedly embrace/endorse whatever stupid format players want to play...

First of all, yes, you DO have to endorse what your community wants, as long as it's not creating a conflict of interest. Players saying they want an equipment event is ok, players determining ban lists is wrong (because they can just advocate for bans that make them win more, not ones that are actually good choices). Second, stupid, because you say it is? Like @ ぱみゅ said, if you have players who want to play, why go out of your way to exclude them? Yes, if it's day of, say 'next time, so we can plan for you'. But, to NEVER do alternate formats, even if your players say they want it? Because YOU think it's stupid? What would it take for you to run equipment events? 10% of your players? 20%? 50%? Oh, wait...

...which apparently includes setting up the bracket, running the event, and acting like I'm happy about it.

I don't have a problem with players running sub-events and using spare setups. I don't particularly have any control over it as far as 3DS units are concerned. I'll just be straight, though: if I host a 3DS event ever, I won't be hosting an equipment event.

Apparently, it doesn't matter how many, because you NEVER under any circumstances will hold equipment events. I feel sorry for our players, or rather, for the players who aren't just like the majority. I won't lie, if I was in your region, liked equipment play, and read your posts, I'd never come to your events for fear of everyone treating me like **** and calling me a scrub, and having the TO join in on the fun. Not a single bit of your posting history on this matter convinces me that you have anyone's interests in mind other than people who play your version of standard Smash, and I hope to god that most TOs aren't like that, because if they are, our scene is screwed.

This is the problem with the whole "I'm ok with OTHERS doing it, but I won't" mindset when it's held by the people with power: that mindset is only ok if a few people hold it, but once EVERYONE starts acting like that, all the sudden we find that nothing gets done. I hate to make the analogy again, but if it was ok for restaurant owners to use that excuse for running things, black people still wouldn't be sitting at counters in America.

 

[RWB]

Actually, Jack... that's not a very solid comparison.

It's more like someone hosting a professional tennis tournament, and then someone shows up and demand that they also host a Badminton tournament, just because a few tennis players want to play badminton.

Your comparison borders on offensive.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Actually, Jack... that's not a very solid comparison.

It's more like someone hosting a professional tennis tournament, and then someone shows up and demand that they also host a Badminton tournament, just because a few tennis players want to play badminton.

Your comparison borders on offensive.

No, that's a terrible analogy. It would be as if someone was holding amateur tennis competitions for their city, and a group of players asked if next time they could use a court for an event where tennis scoring was different, and were told to go to another city because their city didn't allow courts to be used if the scoring is different. Smash with equipment isn't a different game entirely, it's a different format of the same game how is this so controversial

And, I used the analogy I did because I view a TO with the ability and resources to serve the community not doing so not for a practical reason but because he thinks the way they play "is stupid" to be a form of discrimination.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

First of all, yes, you DO have to endorse what your community wants, as long as it's not creating a conflict of interest.

Or else what? You'll tell on me? You went about this discussion all wrong. It's fine to suggest that "the best way to build a community is to do X, Y, and Z, and to do otherwise is much less effective". It's completely different to storm in and yell that anyone has to do this or that. You've completely undermined your own points.

Players saying they want an equipment event is ok, players determining ban lists is wrong (because they can just advocate for bans that make them win more, not ones that are actually good choices). Second, stupid, because you say it is? Like @ ぱみゅ said, if you have players who want to play, why go out of your way to exclude them? Yes, if it's day of, say 'next time, so we can plan for you'. But, to NEVER do alternate formats, even if your players say they want it? Because YOU think it's stupid? What would it take for you to run equipment events? 10% of your players? 20%? 50%? Oh, wait...

The last couple tournaments I hosted were Melee only. I left all the Brawl and PM players out in the cold. U mad bro?

Apparently, it doesn't matter how many, because you NEVER under any circumstances will hold equipment events. I feel sorry for our players, or rather, for the players who aren't just like the majority. I won't lie, if I was in your region, liked equipment play, and read your posts, I'd never come to your events for fear of everyone treating me like **** and calling me a scrub, and having the TO join in on the fun. Not a single bit of your posting history on this matter convinces me that you have anyone's interests in mind other than people who play your version of standard Smash, and I hope to god that most TOs aren't like that, because if they are, our scene is screwed.

I'm not treating anyone like that. I'm allowed to think the format is stupid. I don't call people scrubs and mock them for liking it. I just disagree about its merits. Are you sure you're not confusing tournaments with smashfests? The way you're talking suggests you are. Tournaments strive to adhere toward "standard Smash" because that's what the whole world plays. We want to get better as a community to eventually travel and compete in other places upholding the same standard.

You can act like the sky is falling all you want. Too bad it doesn't jive with reality. Why hasn't the community collapsed yet? Because I'm the only TO of my kind? I've been to dozens of tournaments in multiple states. They all ran "boring standard format". If equipment tournaments caught on and became the norm, either I'd get on board or quit. That doesn't mean I have to be the one facilitating that format at the start.

This is the problem with the whole "I'm ok with OTHERS doing it, but I won't" mindset when it's held by the people with power: that mindset is only ok if a few people hold it, but once EVERYONE starts acting like that, all the sudden we find that nothing gets done. I hate to make the analogy again, but if it was ok for restaurant owners to use that excuse for running things, black people still wouldn't be sitting at counters in America.

. . .

You didn't just say that, did you? Me choosing not to host equipment events is the equivalent of racism? Good grief.

No, that's a terrible analogy. It would be as if someone was holding amateur tennis competitions for their city, and a group of players asked if next time they could use a court for an event where tennis scoring was different, and were told to go to another city because their city didn't allow courts to be used if the scoring is different. Smash with equipment isn't a different game entirely, it's a different format of the same game how is this so controversial

And, I used the analogy I did because I view a TO with the ability and resources to serve the community not doing so not for a practical reason but because he thinks the way they play "is stupid" to be a form of discrimination.

And yet, we stopped allowing item events a long time ago. Where is the outrage? The "discrimination" has been going on a long time. I also have discrimination against Pokemon, Street Fighter, Quake, and DOTA 2. If I want to host an FFA-only tournament (no standard format), I will. If no one comes, then it's on me to make the format more appealing. If tons of people come, they play by my rules because they knew what they were getting into.

Regardless, it's not controversial. Go ahead. Host it. Your attitude of "I don't wanna host it, but my TO has to" is detrimental to only yourself. People who know me know that I'm a pretty reasonable guy. If I were still an active TO and a substantial number of players wanted to do an equipment event, I'd probably make room for one, but it would have nothing to do with my "moral obligation". I wouldn't do it because I "have to" as you so like to put it. I'd do it because I want to. You've just driven the discussion in a direction where TOs must fit one mold else the community will crash.

 

[EraOfGames]

Maybe this is a matter of difference of beliefs, but personally I do not think TOs have an obligation to host equipment tourneys. That is on them, they are the ones putting in time and effort in organizing the event. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any equipment tourneys though, but it's up to each TO whether they want to or not and they shouldn't feel forced to.

I suppose equipment could work, or at least tried, as a side event, though I think at least a standard ruleset should be made/proposed first by equipment fans in friendlies, with bans and/or limits on certain equipment. Also, it should be asked beforehand if there are actual willing participants for equipment tourneys. I'm not saying it will happen, but it's possible nearly no one would be interested in them in certain areas. I could be wrong about that though. It's just that, not only does equipment seem to be unpopular (at least at first glance), it's something you have invest a lot of time in single player to get ideal equipment. In some ways, an equipment tournament is even less enticing than an item tournament, something even casual players could enjoy, but equipment doesn't necessarily cater to casual players nor most competitive players.

 

[Jabejazz]

First of all, yes, you DO have to endorse what your community wants

Assuming you're a Smash 4 TO, and your community predominantly wants to play with equipment, you don't "have" to endorse it, but it is indeed preferable to your community, as you please the majority. Otherwise, I'd base my decisions on pro-rata.

I'm personally against equipment, however, the Smash community has the weird habit of instantly banning anything that is (read seems) out of the ordinary. Most of us know the logical outcome of including equipment in tournaments, but it still deserves testing.

Regardless, allowing equipment is an evolving process; if it happens, it's not gonna be on a large scale..

 

[RenyNoise]

I'm really happy people here are down for using Custom moves, that gives characters who got hit with heavy nerfs like Falco some more options, and atleast a chance to be played well in Tournaments with a little tweaking.

 

[Conda]

Not sure why this thread's still open, it's 9 pages of people agreeing on banning equipment (as we have known for a long time before this thread) but allowing custom moves (same as above).

 

[teluoborg]

Yes but how do you enforce it ?
I'm speaking of practicality here : say you want to hold a custom moves only tournament, how do you make sure nobody is using some slightly improving equipment ? There are no simple way to do it as you can turn item offs, or simply ask players to not play on some stages.

 

[EraOfGames]

Yes but how do you enforce it ?
I'm speaking of practicality here : say you want to hold a custom moves only tournament, how do you make sure nobody is using some slightly improving equipment ? There are no simple way to do it as you can turn item offs, or simply ask players to not play on some stages.

For equipment in general, there is an equipment wheel on the Character Select Screen that tells you if they have any positive stats from it. I do not know if this shows up for 3DS local. For equipment with smaller effects, that does now show up on the CSS like most equipment does, it would be a bit harder to restrict assuming it shows no colors on the equipment wheel. I've heard people talking about this but I haven't seen it; do these "invisible" equipment actually exist? If it does, you could require players to save replays of their matches for evidence and only review if needed, as the effects of equipment are something you can observe.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

For equipment in general, there is an equipment wheel on the Character Select Screen that tells you if they have any positive stats from it. I do not know if this shows up for 3DS local. For equipment with smaller effects, that does now show up on the CSS like most equipment does, it would be a bit harder to restrict assuming it shows no colors on the equipment wheel. I've heard people talking about this but I haven't seen it; do these "invisible" equipment actually exist? If it does, you could require players to save replays of their matches for evidence and only review if needed, as the effects of equipment are something you can observe.

The circle shows no stat gains if you manage an all-negative setup, which could be achieved by having 3 pieces of equipment with greater stat drawbacks than gains in favor of a specialized bonus like easier perfect shielding. That would possibly slip by unless you actually look at the character setup.

I think a lot of these issues will vanish on the Wii U since everyone will be looking at the same screen, making it harder to pull off any subterfuge.