Proposal: Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament? [Now with a poll]

[RWB]

Guys let's think about it and I will take an example, let's take a shot to another game,
Pokémon. Eventually i will return to Smash but wait a little.
Competitive Pokémon.
People needs to rely in their strategies with the pokémon they battle, for example, their attacks and equipment not always the same from trainer to trainer, and more important, the natures and the individual vales from 'mon to 'mon varies, you must breed pokémons until you make the correct one, the train it the most efficient way.
Usually people uses same Pokémon species and that's cool but not great, the varieties creates an interesting battle, let me remind you (if you saw it) the god based Pachirisu from the last World Championship who left open wide mouths.

Let's take a look back at Smash, custom moves will make the battles interesting, but the equipment you get will not always be the same from player to player, it gives a random (but fixed min/max for negative and positive) stats and bonus effects, some bonus effects gives to the player negatives bonus, but their negative stats are not too hard,
regular bonus effects give to the player a new diversity, but at a cost, you will suffer more negative stats. yada yada yada. (i think all know that)

My point is equipment should be legal because it could be more interesting, it could have more strategic ways to play and it could be fun.

Seriously think about it :D

I can build a OHKO Counter Mac(that can also KO outside Counter with uncharged Smashes at 30%) with a very minor defense loss(-5%), and a speed nerf that Mac with his high speed doesn't really suffer much from.

 

[Jabejazz]

I don't understand.

All you have to do is convince your TO to allow customs/equipments for the first few weeklies, and see how it goes.
If it works, the TO can tell the others how well it goes.

It doesn't have to be something that is adopted on a large scale at first. Convincing us is completely useless.

 

[popsofctown]

I can build a OHKO Counter Mac(that can also KO outside Counter with uncharged Smashes at 30%) with a very minor defense loss(-5%), and a speed nerf that Mac with his high speed doesn't really suffer much from.

If you want to prove that characters with equipment can do really well against characters without equipment, you're going to have an easy time

 

[CosmicFuzz]

I'm all for custom moves, but equipment is far too much of a hassle without limits.

The fact that it randomly drops and the same item could have different properties (King's Cape +60 - 50 is a lot worse than King's Cape +59 - 34) could allow a significant advantage to one player that the other may not have.

If we do implement equipment, my belief is that it would have to have no effects involved and a max limit such as +20 in any one stat to create a balanced fight.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

Are people really going to host 3DS tournaments alongside Wii U tournaments?

The only way I could see anything like this happening is at like say an 1000+ person tournament, we can do like 3ds swiss rounds to make things easier and have a top like 128 bracket on console.

 

[RWB]

If you want to prove that characters with equipment can do really well against characters without equipment, you're going to have an easy time

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to point out that "But the power is balanced by being easy to kill" isn't true at all(unless we assume the opponent is going for an offensive build as well). You could probably find better versions of my items and end up with +in defense and the same atk.

 

[BassManX]

I'm all for custom moves, but equipment is far too much of a hassle without limits.

The fact that it randomly drops and the same item could have different properties (King's Cape +60 - 50 is a lot worse than King's Cape +59 - 34) could allow a significant advantage to one player that the other may not have.

If we do implement equipment, my belief is that it would have to have no effects involved and a max limit such as +20 in any one stat to create a balanced fight.

you're right, but, take note that rare equipment can give more than +60, the last time i saw a rare equipment gave +82 Spd and -50 Atk

 

[Jack Kieser]

If you want equipment tourneys try hosting them yourself, whether wifi or offline and see if there are significant amount of people actually interested in said tourneys. Most smash players aren't interested in them though (at least as I've seen so far), so it'd have to start as a cult hit type thing (if it even did). Maybe eventually more people would be interested in equipment tourneys. But the thing is, saying you're allowing equipment in a tourney is going to be off-putting to people that would usually join, so TOs may not want to take that risk. Most TOs most likely don't even like equipment, there's no incentive for them to host an equipment tourney.

I don't think equipment would work well in a tournament setting. RNG equipment that must be grinded for, and there are many imbalanced equipment. Crit equipment is extremely unfair (though hilarious). I would have to try it more, but from the games I've played equipment drastically effects the balance of smash even outside crits, and even the pace of a match. To see how well equipment would work you'd have to try to make an equipment scene. You need to show other people that equipment in a tourney can be fun and can work.

No. No. NO NO NO NO. This is not a good way to run a community. The fact of the matter is that some people want to play the game in a certain way competitively, but do not have the skill, capital, or time to run events of their own (that they shouldn't even enter anyway because MASSIVE conflict of interest if a TO enters his / her own event.

The fact of the matter is that it is the responsibility of TOs to cater to their communities, and if people want to play with equipment, their TO needs to run those events, and NEVER should tell players "go somewhere else, you're not welcome here." This was a MASSIVE problem with item play in Brawl. People WANTED to play with them. Enjoyed it. Would have paid to enter events. And there was even a cut and paste ruleset that TOs could use. But, because our TOs would rather ignore their own players when what they want contradicts the TOs beliefs, no TO would run the events. Ever. They were morally opposed to them, thinking they shouldn't exist.

This is equivalent in logic (though obviously not importance) to a white segregationist business owner telling black customers "hey, if you don't like my Blacks Only section, go make your own restaurant." Not only is that missing the point entirely, but it's the business owner's responsibility to cater to his customers, not the customer's responsibility to do something he doesn't want to do and might not even be able to do just because this one guy doesn't want to serve him.

We are a community, full stop. And that means our TOs cater to EVERY player. If there are enough people to run a bracket, run an event to support them. I don't care if you're a newbie or Xyro. You cater to your community. If there are 8 people in your community that want to play with equipment, run an 8 man equipment bracket. DO NOT tell your players to "go somewhere else" or "do it yourself".

 

[Blazing Ambition]

Eh, why not. Let's test em' out and see if they spice up the metagame. If not, take 'em out.

 

[BassManX]

No. No. NO NO NO NO. This is not a good way to run a community. The fact of the matter is that some people want to play the game in a certain way competitively, but do not have the skill, capital, or time to run events of their own (that they shouldn't even enter anyway because MASSIVE conflict of interest if a TO enters his / her own event.

The fact of the matter is that it is the responsibility of TOs to cater to their communities, and if people want to play with equipment, their TO needs to run those events, and NEVER should tell players "go somewhere else, you're not welcome here." This was a MASSIVE problem with item play in Brawl. People WANTED to play with them. Enjoyed it. Would have paid to enter events. And there was even a cut and paste ruleset that TOs could use. But, because our TOs would rather ignore their own players when what they want contradicts the TOs beliefs, no TO would run the events. Ever. They were morally opposed to them, thinking they shouldn't exist.

This is equivalent in logic (though obviously not importance) to a white segregationist business owner telling black customers "hey, if you don't like my Blacks Only section, go make your own restaurant." Not only is that missing the point entirely, but it's the business owner's responsibility to cater to his customers, not the customer's responsibility to do something he doesn't want to do and might not even be able to do just because this one guy doesn't want to serve him.

We are a community, full stop. And that means our TOs cater to EVERY player. If there are enough people to run a bracket, run an event to support them. I don't care if you're a newbie or Xyro. You cater to your community. If there are 8 people in your community that want to play with equipment, run an 8 man equipment bracket. DO NOT tell your players to "go somewhere else" or "do it yourself".

you know, you are right, this is a community , debates will born, but sometimes they will carry off the saddle, and this need to stop and rethink this in another time, we can always test it before it launch or spoil

By the way, what did you say about restaurants and Black only section? i live in México, and and i haven´t seen something like that before, that's horrible and racist to people. That exist over there?

 

[BassManX]

Eh, why not. Let's test em' out and see if they spice up the metagame. If not, take 'em out.

you stole the words from my mouth

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

We are a community, full stop. And that means our TOs cater to EVERY player. If there are enough people to run a bracket, run an event to support them. I don't care if you're a newbie or Xyro. You cater to your community. If there are 8 people in your community that want to play with equipment, run an 8 man equipment bracket. DO NOT tell your players to "go somewhere else" or "do it yourself".

Nope. Can't support this. I spent many years as a TO. Oftentimes, communities are small and resources are limited. Back in the days of Melee, people wanted all kinds of events (such as Low Tier). As a player, I've been told to "go somewhere else" and "do it myself". As a TO, I've told players to "do it themselves". The TO does not have some moral obligation to run every event imaginable. If you honestly believe what you're saying, become a TO and run all these events. Don't get mad when others don't follow. What you're proposing is quite unrealistic.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

No. No. NO NO NO NO. This is not a good way to run a community. The fact of the matter is that some people want to play the game in a certain way competitively, but do not have the skill, capital, or time to run events of their own (that they shouldn't even enter anyway because MASSIVE conflict of interest if a TO enters his / her own event.

The fact of the matter is that it is the responsibility of TOs to cater to their communities, and if people want to play with equipment, their TO needs to run those events, and NEVER should tell players "go somewhere else, you're not welcome here." This was a MASSIVE problem with item play in Brawl. People WANTED to play with them. Enjoyed it. Would have paid to enter events. And there was even a cut and paste ruleset that TOs could use. But, because our TOs would rather ignore their own players when what they want contradicts the TOs beliefs, no TO would run the events. Ever. They were morally opposed to them, thinking they shouldn't exist.

This is equivalent in logic (though obviously not importance) to a white segregationist business owner telling black customers "hey, if you don't like my Blacks Only section, go make your own restaurant." Not only is that missing the point entirely, but it's the business owner's responsibility to cater to his customers, not the customer's responsibility to do something he doesn't want to do and might not even be able to do just because this one guy doesn't want to serve him.

We are a community, full stop. And that means our TOs cater to EVERY player. If there are enough people to run a bracket, run an event to support them. I don't care if you're a newbie or Xyro. You cater to your community. If there are 8 people in your community that want to play with equipment, run an 8 man equipment bracket. DO NOT tell your players to "go somewhere else" or "do it yourself".

Not sure if you're paying attention to the poll, but the community appears to be saying "No" to equipment.

Arguing for equipment is a lost cause. It makes the match ups invariable, it allows absurd as all hell possibilities that make the game feel like you're playing Gameshark. It's almost offensive, in my opinion, that you'd actually push for such a thing to be legal, given that its legality would probably prove nearly as a catastrophic to the scene competitively as the rules for that Brawl EVO tournament we all know so well. Oh yeah, Brawl's last EVO. Not to mention the last EVO we would get to see Smash on the stage period until after years of effort from the ENTIRE community just to get Melee back on.

Equipment stands no chance. It isn't balanced. It wasn't made to be. It takes away the limitations the game applies to you and allows you to do absurd things that would only detract from any observation of skill in a match. End of story.

 

[Signia]

Guys let's think about it and I will take an example, let's take a shot to another game,
Pokémon. Eventually i will return to Smash but wait a little.
Competitive Pokémon.

NO

**** POKEMON

What is it with Smash players and pokemon lol

 

[Deleted member 245254]

NO

**** POKEMON

What is it with Smash players and pokemon lol

If you're a fan of Nintendo (most or all Smash players) then you're probably a vegetable if you don't know a lot about Pokemon.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Nope. Can't support this. I spent many years as a TO. Oftentimes, communities are small and resources are limited. Back in the days of Melee, people wanted all kinds of events (such as Low Tier). As a player, I've been told to "go somewhere else" and "do it myself". As a TO, I've told players to "do it themselves". The TO does not have some moral obligation to run every event imaginable. If you honestly believe what you're saying, become a TO and run all these events. Don't get mad when others don't follow. What you're proposing is quite unrealistic.

Yes, they DO have a moral obligation. You become a TO, you have an obligation to serve your community, considering, like you said, resources are limited and not everyone can do the job. TOs are literally the bedrock of the community; the worse our TOs are, the worse our community is. If you don't want that responsibility, don't become a TO.

You're literally trying to counter me by saying "I got treated like that", as if that somehow makes it ok. It wasn't ok when you were treated like that, and it's not ok when you treat others like that. If you want to be a TO, you serve your community. Period. You are the closest analogue we have to a "public servant". Act like it.

Also, I love that your response to "it's wrong to tell others to 'do it yourself' when you control the capital and have the capability" is "if you don't like it, do it yourself". >_> It's not like you're being asked to bend over backwards. You're already a TO. If a group of willing players comes to you and says "we'd like to play something", and you have the capability to run that event, and you don't, that makes you a bad TO. Period. And, if we want to grow, we need to foster as diverse and deep a community as we can, which WON'T happen if all the people who have the ability and setups necessary to run non-standard events refuse to do so simply because "eh, you're not the majority of players, so I honestly don't care".

Not sure if you're paying attention to the poll, but the community appears to be saying "No" to equipment.

Arguing for equipment is a lost cause. It makes the match ups invariable, it allows absurd as all hell possibilities that make the game feel like you're playing Gameshark. It's almost offensive, in my opinion, that you'd actually push for such a thing to be legal, given that its legality would probably prove nearly as a catastrophic to the scene competitively as the rules for that Brawl EVO tournament we all know so well. Oh yeah, Brawl's last EVO. Not to mention the last EVO we would get to see Smash on the stage period until after years of effort from the ENTIRE community just to get Melee back on.

Equipment stands no chance. It isn't balanced. It wasn't made to be. It takes away the limitations the game applies to you and allows you to do absurd things that would only detract from any observation of skill in a match. End of story.

Ok, multiple things.

One, no one is talking about a standard. We're talking about experimentation. Which, last time I checked, was the period of the game's life cycle we're in, the beginning experimental phase.

Two, I couldn't care less about the results of a poll online. If you're a TO and people in your community walk in your door and say "we have enough people for a bracket, we'd like to have an event", and it's feasible to do so, you are literally making our community worse by saying 'no'. What matters is not how many people respond to a poll in which way. What matters is what people actually want to play in real life.

Three, Brawl was kicked out of EVO because we were pissy. We knew the rules, Mr. Wizards rules and item sets were fair, we willingly entered the tournament, and when Ken didn't win like we all predicted (BECAUSE HE GOT OUTPLAYED) we all ******* and moaned like children and complained about the results. Brawl wasn't let back into EVO because we didn't deserve to be on their main stage, plain and simple.

Last, the issue here, like the OP tried to say (and correctly guessed would be ignored thanks to the added poll) was that this thread IS NOT about competitive standards, but about experimentation. If equipment is really so bad, then you have literally nothing to worry about; testing will reveal it to be bad in bracket. Or, is it that everyone is really just afraid that if we try testing it, you'll be proven wrong, we'll see there's nothing to worry about, people willgod forbid change their minds, and the status quo will change? How horrible.

 

[BassManX]

NO

**** POKEMON

What is it with Smash players and pokemon lol

I play Pokémon too, creating a competitive team is not easy i wanted to make a point taking that example of the difficulties to make a really good equipment set and breeding a perfect IV pokémon.
Another example if we make Full Atk Set giving 200+ the Def will cause trouble and it would be like in 1 Gen in pokémon a full wave of earthquakes and we hope we are faster, then people started to rethink strategies and eventually became the enormous thing that is now.
Of course we can try giving the players the liberty of making a full stat set, but all will become a rock paper scissors game.
I think that restrictions for equipment sets would fit nice if you think that people would make a full stat set

By the way cursing Pokémon won't give you any good in a Nintendo Fan-Forum

 

[BassManX]

Last, the issue here, like the OP tried to say (and correctly guessed would be ignored thanks to the added poll) was that this thread IS NOT about competitive standards, but about experimentation. If equipment is really so bad, then you have literally nothing to worry about; testing will reveal it to be bad in bracket. Or, is it that everyone is really just afraid that if we try testing it, you'll be proven wrong, we'll see there's nothing to worry about, people willgod forbid change their minds, and the status quo will change? How horrible.

Three, Brawl was kicked out of EVO because we were pissy. We knew the rules, Mr. Wizards rules and item sets were fair, we willingly entered the tournament, and when Ken didn't win like we all predicted (BECAUSE HE GOT OUTPLAYED) we all *****ed and moaned like children and complained about the results. Brawl wasn't let back into EVO because we didn't deserve to be on their main stage, plain and simple.

I think some type of test would make this more easy.
Let's train, get parts and build a set and test all, not only plain equipment but positive bonus and negative bonus effect equipment

Three, Brawl was kicked out of EVO because we were pissy. We knew the rules, Mr. Wizards rules and item sets were fair, we willingly entered the tournament, and when Ken didn't win like we all predicted (BECAUSE HE GOT OUTPLAYED) we all *****ed and moaned like children and complained about the results. Brawl wasn't let back into EVO because we didn't deserve to be on their main stage, plain and simple.

And correct me if i'm wrong. Thinking in that direction, well... Nintendo also wanted to take out Smash games from EVO, that behaviour was the last drop that made that happened

 

[OnettGirl]

We are a community, full stop. And that means our TOs cater to EVERY player. If there are enough people to run a bracket, run an event to support them. I don't care if you're a newbie or Xyro. You cater to your community. If there are 8 people in your community that want to play with equipment, run an 8 man equipment bracket. DO NOT tell your players to "go somewhere else" or "do it yourself".

The problem with that is that a TO can only do so much. When you go to sign up to a tournament that a TO is hosting you sign up under their rules and how they plan to run things.

So taking this argument and going back to restaurants say you have a group of 8 people and you walk into an italian place. But your group of 8 doesn't necessarily want pasta they just want the chicken breast that comes on top of the pasta. However, this restaurant isn't a chicken place, it's an italian restaurant. They aren't obligated to cater to your group by serving your small group of 8 the chicken breast. If you want chicken so bad go to the KFC that's just down the road, or go buy a chicken at your local Wal-Mart and make it yourself [or get one of those nice rotisserie chicken]. They can't necessarily tell you to go somewhere else, but they don't have to serve you.

If you want to have a tournament with equipment but you go to a tournament where they aren't using equipment they aren't obligated to suddenly make a small 8 man bracket for an equipment tournament, that's not what they are there for, they are there to run the tournament they set out to run and that you willingly signed up to. If TO's started catering to every player where would the line be drawn? You can't cater to everyone, if you do your original goal will be lost. There comes a point and time where you just have to do what you set out to do.

 

[Thegopher]

I am completely against equipment. As for custom moves I believe that we as a community should be picking and choosing a balanced set for each character consisting of custom moves/normal moves or even some characters without custom moves. then each character will have an agreed upon set of moves that will be tournament balanced. This would perhaps make the game like project m in a sense of a balancing act.

 

[Jack Kieser]

The problem with that is that a TO can only do so much. When you go to sign up to a tournament that a TO is hosting you sign up under their rules and how they plan to run things.

Absolutely. I'll continue in the next section, but suffice it to say here that this assumes "within reason" and "TO is capable" as premises; "ought" implies "can", after all.

So taking this argument and going back to restaurants say you have a group of 8 people and you walk into an italian place. But your group of 8 doesn't necessarily want pasta they just want the chicken breast that comes on top of the pasta. However, this restaurant isn't a chicken place, it's an italian restaurant. They aren't obligated to cater to your group by serving your small group of 8 the chicken breast. If you want chicken so bad go to the KFC that's just down the road, or go buy a chicken at your local Wal-Mart and make it yourself [or get one of those nice rotisserie chicken]. They can't necessarily tell you to go somewhere else, but they don't have to serve you.

If you want to have a tournament with equipment but you go to a tournament where they aren't using equipment they aren't obligated to suddenly make a small 8 man bracket for an equipment tournament, that's not what they are there for, they are there to run the tournament they set out to run and that you willingly signed up to. If TO's started catering to every player where would the line be drawn? You can't cater to everyone, if you do your original goal will be lost. There comes a point and time where you just have to do what you set out to do.

I should be more clear: when I say "players walk in", I absolutely do not mean that the TO drops everything he / she is doing to cater. That would be ridiculous and asinine. What I mean is, if a group of players comes to a TO, either at an event or at a Smashfest, and says "hey, we have enough players to do a full equipment bracket and would like to start fostering an equipment metagame in our community", then the TO has a responsibility to oblige, not necessarily at that moment, but in the future and on a reasonable timescale. I assume that the TO will operate in good faith and not say "maybe next week" every single week until they go away.

Yes, the restaurant metaphor breaks down because restaurants are not required to cater to every single thing. But, I think a more apt metaphor would be new dishes vs substitutions. Is a chef required to sub out peanuts to accommodate a patron with an allergy? Not necessarily, but not to do so means you're a bad person, a bad chef, and possibly a bad restauranteur. Ordering a meal that the chef doesn't make is more akin to asking a TO to run Street Fighter instead of Smash, which is silly. But, running a different form of Smash, one that requires no special setups or special equipment (other than what's on the fighters!), and only takes marginally more effort? That seems more than reasonable, especially if players show there's a local community for it.

 

[Sarix]

The problem I find with equipment is if we take away the effects and focus on raw number gains, we still currently have no way to gauge the actual gain for characters beyond player observation. Without concrete data to make correlations on how much each stat point effects a character overall there's simply too many unknown variables that would prevent us from reaching an objective conclusion on whether or not equipment is harmful or not.

If we do dredge up this data though, we would be able to determine stat ranges that would allow for a reasonable range of customization on characters without warping character identity and the game as a whole; that or we find the stats just completely warp game balance even in minor amounts.

If equipment turns out to be manageable within fair stat ranges then Smash would be able to experience customization similar to Dissidia's equipment system (if you can call that a fighting game) without making player skill a weaker factor.

My point however is that we first need objective measuring sticks via game data to determine anything about how much a character gains from equipment before implementing it into a tournament setting.

 

[BassManX]

The problem I find with equipment is if we take away the effects and focus on raw number gains, we still currently have no way to gauge the actual gain for characters beyond player observation. Without concrete data to make correlations on how much each stat point effects a character overall there's simply too many unknown variables that would prevent us from reaching an objective conclusion on whether or not equipment is harmful or not.

If we do dredge up this data though, we would be able to determine stat ranges that would allow for a reasonable range of customization on characters without warping character identity and the game as a whole; that or we find the stats just completely warp game balance even in minor amounts.

If equipment turns out to be manageable within fair stat ranges then Smash would be able to experience customization similar to Dissidia's equipment system (if you can call that a fighting game) without making player skill a weaker factor.

My point however is that we first need objective measuring sticks via game data to determine anything about how much a character gains from equipment before implementing it into a tournament setting.

This is the only thing we need to do, experimentation. After this, all will be set to a simple rule: use or not to use

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Yes, they DO have a moral obligation. You become a TO, you have an obligation to serve your community, considering, like you said, resources are limited and not everyone can do the job. TOs are literally the bedrock of the community; the worse our TOs are, the worse our community is. If you don't want that responsibility, don't become a TO.

You're literally trying to counter me by saying "I got treated like that", as if that somehow makes it ok. It wasn't ok when you were treated like that, and it's not ok when you treat others like that. If you want to be a TO, you serve your community. Period. You are the closest analogue we have to a "public servant". Act like it.

Also, I love that your response to "it's wrong to tell others to 'do it yourself' when you control the capital and have the capability" is "if you don't like it, do it yourself". >_> It's not like you're being asked to bend over backwards. You're already a TO. If a group of willing players comes to you and says "we'd like to play something", and you have the capability to run that event, and you don't, that makes you a bad TO. Period. And, if we want to grow, we need to foster as diverse and deep a community as we can, which WON'T happen if all the people who have the ability and setups necessary to run non-standard events refuse to do so simply because "eh, you're not the majority of players, so I honestly don't care".

I have no moral obligation to do anything. I can host an all items tournament followed by a darts competition if I want to. It is in my best interest to prioritize the most popular formats to cater to the largest number of fans, but that's not what we're talking about. You are telling me that if 8 people want to do a side event I supposedly have to endorse that. You have fun with that. I ran tournaments for years. I collaborated with many other TOs. None of them subscriber to your "serve or die" mantra.

I didn't reject side events because "I got treated like that"; I rejected side events because I only had the time and energy for the standard formats. I brought up that "I got treated like that" because I was emphasizing that other TOs feel the same way. We're certainly not going to grow with people like you going commanding that TOs do as you say. If you wanna host a particular format, you make it happen. I've done that before: organized a sub-event while the TO ran the main event. I've never once resented the primary TO for not running it himself.

If a group of willing players comes to me and says "we'd like to play something", and I have the capability to run that event, and I don't, that's my own decision. I don't subscribe to the Jack Kieser Standard of TO Quality, so I don't really care what you think. I've had many people tell me I run tournaments well, so I have nothing to defend.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

This is the only thing we need to do, experimentation. After this, all will be set to a simple rule: use or not to use

There's plenty of experimentation. The whole world has the game, and most people nearly unanimously agree that equipment stands a snowballs chance in hell at being legal.

(Hint : none)

 

[Balgorxz]

lol at these people think all equipment should be banned because most of them are imbalanced, we don't need all the equipments only the good ones.
Smooth Lander,Hard Braker and Glider make the gameplay so much better I can see them being in tournaments with special rules in the future, the best way to balance this is just give a range where these can be used without being gamebreaker, for example having +0 attack and +5 it's barely noticeable and won't change a thing, so probably having a range between -10 and +10 of each stat won't affect gameplay.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Eh, why not. Let's test em' out and see if they spice up the metagame. If not, take 'em out.

No way, man! They might be bad, and if they're bad, then we risk... uh... stuff!

 

[Thor]

The game has little icons displayed on character portraits when customizations are on, indicating if they have any equipment/items on. It's otherwise a neutral/grey colour. I'm not sure if this covers 100% of everything, but I think it may.

This is displayed to all players.

From my understanding, you can TECHNICALLY have equipment on and still a grey color, but that would mean ALL of your stats are zero or negative. I do NOT know if passives show up with this though.

At most this means some sneaky jerk could put on a bunch of easy powershield/fast shield regen stuff and hope no one notices (IF the opponent didn't notice the obscenely good powershielding as not having perfect timing) or alter jump height slightly, but I think it would be rather easy to detect while playing (Ex: I hit you with a shield breaker and 3 seconds later you have a full shield... no. How can you powershield all these Megaman pellets...? etc.).

They could be really strict about enforcement too - you know the rules, if you break it once by accident or otherwise, pay the price, since you had a ridiculously large amount of time beforehand (and ten slots) to make sure you had a version of your character with correct specials and no equipment (it's for this reason that I have all my number 1 slots on my characters [even those I don't use] with no equipment [and until I unlock all custom specials, no custom specials either] - that way if I want to play without equipment I know that custom #1 [or default] is ALWAYS acceptable - I'm just being prepared in advance).

Guys let's think about it and I will take an example, let's take a shot to another game,
Pokémon. Eventually i will return to Smash but wait a little.
Competitive Pokémon.
People needs to rely in their strategies with the pokémon they battle, for example, their attacks and equipment not always the same from trainer to trainer, and more important, the natures and the individual vales from 'mon to 'mon varies, you must breed pokémons until you make the correct one, the train it the most efficient way.
Usually people uses same Pokémon species and that's cool but not great, the varieties creates an interesting battle, let me remind you (if you saw it) the god based Pachirisu from the last World Championship who left open wide mouths.

Let's take a look back at Smash, custom moves will make the battles interesting, but the equipment you get will not always be the same from player to player, it gives a random (but fixed min/max for negative and positive) stats and bonus effects, some bonus effects gives to the player negatives bonus, but their negative stats are not too hard,
regular bonus effects give to the player a new diversity, but at a cost, you will suffer more negative stats. yada yada yada. (i think all know that)

My point is equipment should be legal because it could be more interesting, it could have more strategic ways to play and it could be fun.

Seriously think about it :D

Pokémon equipment [items] is standardized and RNG doesn't affect the stats of equipment. There are known tricks for breeding high IV Pokémon (and save-scumming can save time, plus it's not that hard to hatch eggs with a bike, and you don't need nearly as many tries for a good version of a Pokémon with the right parents as you do for equipment) and you can reset EVs rather easily in the new ones.

That Pachirisu was built by abusing the RNG (which we currently can't do in Smash) to shortcut the way to a good Pachirisu and EV tricks were used to make it a cakewalk for a competitive player - the only way we'd have would be hours and hours of grinding, and often no progress made even in 4 or 5 hour sessions [I still have zero smooth-landing equipment. ZERO! I already made the "Game is on for 20 hours" goal too.]. They aren't equivalent.

Also are you saying you want to see me time someone out by gimping once and running away forever as Puff with a bunch of speed boosts and 6% passive heals?

EDIT: Thanks to a mod for fixing the split post thing.

you know, you are right, this is a community , debates will born, but sometimes they will carry off the saddle, and this need to stop and rethink this in another time, we can always test it before it launch or spoil

By the way, what did you say about restaurants and Black only section? i live in México, and and i haven´t seen something like that before, that's horrible and racist to people. That exist over there?

In the past yes, though nothing of the sort (publicly - I suppose there may be underground bigotry in some small area) exists now. The Civil Rights movement led to legislation that outlawed this type of discrimination that used to be widespread in the United States of America.

lol at these people think all equipment should be banned because most of them are imbalanced, we don't need all the equipments only the good ones.
Smooth Lander,Hard Braker and Glider make the gameplay so much better I can see them being in tournaments with special rules in the future, the best way to balance this is just give a range where these can be used without being gamebreaker, for example having +0 attack and +5 it's barely noticeable and won't change a thing, so probably having a range between -10 and +10 of each stat won't affect gameplay.

Someone elsewhere made a post on the Smash community's obsession with speed... that is probably relevant to this... but too lazy to link it.

Also ick no - that means my +20 Glider equipment is banned so now I have to grind for one with a lower stat boost. I don't have Smooth Lander either, so I have to get one AND pray that it's low enough stats [with baselines that may vary area to area]? Gross... now that guy who got lucky and got one with +10 attack his first run through classic will be more prepared and better off than I for a tournament next week if in these 10 days I can't grind out a Glider with lower stats and a Smooth Lander that fits restrictions.

If we implement this idea anyway, I don't think "good" should not be the defining criteria - I think if we allow some abilities we should allow some equips that have better stats but negative effects (i.e. the shield degenerators could be allowed for a bigger stat boost, so that you can tradeoff between more general speed via a negative passive effect or going for the glider, for instance, if you have both within tournament restrictions).

 

[Signia]

I play Pokémon too, creating a competitive team is not easy i wanted to make a point taking that example of the difficulties to make a really good equipment set and breeding a perfect IV pokémon.
Another example if we make Full Atk Set giving 200+ the Def will cause trouble and it would be like in 1 Gen in pokémon a full wave of earthquakes and we hope we are faster, then people started to rethink strategies and eventually became the enormous thing that is now.
Of course we can try giving the players the liberty of making a full stat set, but all will become a rock paper scissors game.
I think that restrictions for equipment sets would fit nice if you think that people would make a full stat set

By the way cursing Pokémon won't give you any good in a Nintendo Fan-Forum

Yeah but we have no reason to believe it will result in an interesting metagame. Pokemon is the same way and requires a shocking amount of player-made rules abstractions to be interesting. Whatever, I was done with this thread a while ago. If you can tolerate Pokemon despite all it's flaws, you'll tolerate anything.

If you're a fan of Nintendo (most or all Smash players) then you're probably a vegetable if you don't know a lot about Pokemon.

I do know about it, that's how I know how terrible it is.

Don't random critical hit me bro

 

[Random4811]

Custom moves- yes. None of them, as far as I've heard, are game breaking. Infact, so far they all seem very balanced. It adds a new level of depth to character selection, counter picks, and general gameplay. At the same time, it doesnt change so much that you're playing an almost entirely different game, like equipment.

Equipment- no. Not only do certain characters really become op after a simple equipment change (ganondorf, focus on power and defence, get rid of his arbitrary speed and he's a nightmare. Several streamers have hosted online tourneys that allow equipment, and the biggest thing they found is power ganon is deadly ganon. This is why many have already switched off of equipment.), but it entirely changes the way that the game plays out. Say you use a piece of vampire or auto heal equipment. Suddenly, you're 10 times harder to K.O., because every time your opponent racks some damage up on you, you heal regen it while you retaliate. Then the whole meta of the game becomes everybody having the same equipment effects- because they're the only viable ones against themselves- and matches last much longer, games are one sided dependent on who has the golden gear set, and who has spent more time trying to grind for decent equipment.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah but we have no reason to believe it will result in an interesting metagame. Pokemon is the same way and requires a shocking amount of player-made rules abstractions to be interesting. Whatever, I was done with this thread a while ago. If you can tolerate Pokemon despite all it's flaws, you'll tolerate anything.

Yes, because we don't have stock counts, time limits, banned stages, neutral stages, counterpick stages, Dave's Stupid Rule, item bans, double blind picks, Gentleman's Clause, CP procedures and orders, port priority, suicide clauses, alternate time out rules, ledge grab limits, infinite limits, and banned characters. Face it, we're NOT a simple game to play. We also require, as you put it, " a shocking amount of player-made rules abstractions to be interesting".

I do know about it, that's how I know how terrible it is.

Don't random critical hit me bro

Shell Armor, bro. >_>

 

[Signia]

Yes, because we don't have stock counts, time limits, banned stages, neutral stages, counterpick stages, Dave's Stupid Rule, item bans, double blind picks, Gentleman's Clause, CP procedures and orders, port priority, suicide clauses, alternate time out rules, ledge grab limits, infinite limits, and banned characters. Face it, we're NOT a simple game to play. We also require, as you put it, " a shocking amount of player-made rules abstractions to be interesting".

That doesn't justify adding even more. Unless that and the grinding is really really worth the depth you get in return. But I'll await your testing.

 

[Random4811]

No. No. NO NO NO NO. This is not a good way to run a community. The fact of the matter is that some people want to play the game in a certain way competitively, but do not have the skill, capital, or time to run events of their own (that they shouldn't even enter anyway because MASSIVE conflict of interest if a TO enters his / her own event.

The fact of the matter is that it is the responsibility of TOs to cater to their communities, and if people want to play with equipment, their TO needs to run those events, and NEVER should tell players "go somewhere else, you're not welcome here." This was a MASSIVE problem with item play in Brawl. People WANTED to play with them. Enjoyed it. Would have paid to enter events. And there was even a cut and paste ruleset that TOs could use. But, because our TOs would rather ignore their own players when what they want contradicts the TOs beliefs, no TO would run the events. Ever. They were morally opposed to them, thinking they shouldn't exist.

This is equivalent in logic (though obviously not importance) to a white segregationist business owner telling black customers "hey, if you don't like my Blacks Only section, go make your own restaurant." Not only is that missing the point entirely, but it's the business owner's responsibility to cater to his customers, not the customer's responsibility to do something he doesn't want to do and might not even be able to do just because this one guy doesn't want to serve him.

We are a community, full stop. And that means our TOs cater to EVERY player. If there are enough people to run a bracket, run an event to support them. I don't care if you're a newbie or Xyro. You cater to your community. If there are 8 people in your community that want to play with equipment, run an 8 man equipment bracket. DO NOT tell your players to "go somewhere else" or "do it yourself".

You're majorly over-reacting. One guy with a capture card 3ds, or a dazzle/happauge/elGato when the Wii U version is released could host a twitch tourney, from his living room for FREE, charge an entry fee for it, and do equipment tourneys to test the waters, instead of making TO's waste hundreds of dollars to secure venues and pay for food and such, just so that a minority of players can have equipment. You can't physically cater to everyone. Honestly, the majority is more often than not going to be more faithful than the minority. If there ARE enough players to constitute a full on TO with the less favorable rules, then they CAN set up their own Tourneys's. Like I said, an online Tourney is FREE to set up for the host. If they wanted the IRL Tourney, then they can deal with setting it up. They'll likely realize why no tourneys support their favored rule sets.

I mean, if I were to gather a band of trolls to lobby a TO to make Smash Potato an event, should they listen to us? No. No they shouldnt. They're going to be at a loss. That is what self entitled players fail to understand. Tourneys's cost a lot of money to make, and (looking at it from a local standpoint) if the majority of the core community of their TO doesnt support this new gamemode, then the TO is at a loss next time they organize, because you can bet some of their top players are going to seek an experiance that better suits them, and the more casual equipment lobbyists that it may or may not attract with this new game mode likely won't be as consistent as the more serious players. The gimmick may bring in a few inconsistent players, but the likelyhood of a large community of these players coming to Tourneys's to continue paying to get in when they could have a very simular experience for free from their couch is low. The reason we don't like items in Tourneys? Say that you pay the entry fee, make it to the finals, and are doing really well. Suddenly, your opponent gets the home run bat, K.O's you and takes away your lead, and then a bomb-omb drops from the sky and you lose. You had total advantage over your opponent, in a itemless match, you would have won. Instead, you wasted your money and your time to lose to a random bomb. The salt you generate from that match will likely prevent you from coming to another item tourney/bracket, and you'll shift back twoards regular tourneys/brackets. Fast forward a year or two, and the item tourney

 

[Jiggly]

Custom moves are obviously okay. Most are worse than their neutral counterparts, and the others aren't better, just situational at different areas.
Equipment is a touchy subject, but I'm in support of it atm. I feel like equipment was sakurai's way of giving us our Melee speed and L canceling, and it doesn't seem OP. Some do spawn items, but these aren't random and game such as having items turned on. Peach could spawn beam swords in PM, and ZSS spawned with armor pieces in brawl, and they were allowed. People bring up that you can create a full speed ganondorf, or a max power sonic, but it all seems fair due to the drawbacks. I understand if equipment Is banned, but I feel we as a community should allow them until something is proven broken.

 

[BassManX]

Pokémon equipment [items] is standardized and RNG doesn't affect the stats of equipment. There are known tricks for breeding high IV Pokémon (and save-scumming can save time, plus it's not that hard to hatch eggs with a bike, and you don't need nearly as many tries for a good version of a Pokémon with the right parents as you do for equipment) and you can reset EVs rather easily in the new ones.

That Pachirisu was built by abusing the RNG (which we currently can't do in Smash) to shortcut the way to a good Pachirisu and EV tricks were used to make it a cakewalk for a competitive player - the only way we'd have would be hours and hours of grinding, and often no progress made even in 4 or 5 hour sessions [I still have zero smooth-landing equipment. ZERO! I already made the "Game is on for 20 hours" goal too.]. They aren't equivalent.

You are completely right

Only to correct something, i was comparing SSB equipment with the IV's, not the equipment in Pokémon
By the way I'm one who grinds in Pokémon and do this stuff the hard way, i don't know how to abuse on the RNG, i keep breeding and looking for the correct IV's hatching again, again & again with no results sometimes

Returning to the point, it was only a comparision, i take long gameplays even with no results in both Smash and Pokémon, and i keep getting nothing sometimes, but sometimes i get something interesting like a 5-6 perfect IV 'mon, or even some equipment with not a lot of negative drawback (but 'mon without the nature i want and the equip with a trully negative bonus)

 

[Random4811]

Yes, they DO have a moral obligation. You become a TO, you have an obligation to serve your community, considering, like you said, resources are limited and not everyone can do the job. TOs are literally the bedrock of the community; the worse our TOs are, the worse our community is. If you don't want that responsibility, don't become a TO.

You're literally trying to counter me by saying "I got treated like that", as if that somehow makes it ok. It wasn't ok when you were treated like that, and it's not ok when you treat others like that. If you want to be a TO, you serve your community. Period. You are the closest analogue we have to a "public servant". Act like it.

Also, I love that your response to "it's wrong to tell others to 'do it yourself' when you control the capital and have the capability" is "if you don't like it, do it yourself". >_> It's not like you're being asked to bend over backwards. You're already a TO. If a group of willing players comes to you and says "we'd like to play something", and you have the capability to run that event, and you don't, that makes you a bad TO. Period. And, if we want to grow, we need to foster as diverse and deep a community as we can, which WON'T happen if all the people who have the ability and setups necessary to run non-standard events refuse to do so simply because "eh, you're not the majority of players, so I honestly don't care".

You know, if you feel so strongly about this, maybe, just maybe, you should actually try being a TO so you know what it is like before telling other TO's how to run their ****. Because you know what? When you make an event like a tournament, you schedule things. You rent a venue. You get commentators. You have everything set up and scheduled for the event. If you don't plan to run a side event at all because you wont have time or manpower, and suddenly a group large enough to fill a bracket comes up and asks to play equipment, and you say no, are you a bad guy? No. No you arent. However, if one of that group asks before the event (with fair notice) to host a side event in your venue during your tourney, that is a much more understandable scenario. If you say no without a reason,though; YOU ARE STILL IN THE RIGHT. How, you may be thinking? They didn't pay for the venue. They didn't set up the event, and you don't want their side event to detract from your event, and you dont want to deal with the hassle of figuring up how much they'll owe you for running their stuff in your space during your time frame. Its understandable. As a TO, you arent obligated to cater to every player group that runs your way. It will require a considerable amount of extra effort to do what you propose every TO should do. A TO's obligation is to their tournament and its community, not to the entire Smash community. Despite what you may think, the TO organized this tournament to cater to their target player base, and not every schmuck that walks in the doors. If they try to cater to every small group of players, they're going to stretch themselves thin with side events and detract from the overall experience. The best thing that these groups can do IS to host their own events.

 

[Thor]

BassManX, my sister (who actually plays Pokémon and tries to breed good teams and whatnot) told me that if you breed a Pokémon as one of the parents with the right conditions (I think gender matters, as do some other things, but I didn't pay much attention to details when she told me) and it has perfect IVs or near perfect, the offspring gets perfect IVs everywhere or in most stats, and she has a Ditto for that (worked to breed into it apparently). She read online or heard elsewhere and she's never (in breeding a lot of Pokémon since then) ever had a hatched Pokémon who deviated from that, and as a result she was able to construct a team she wanted to test much faster than she had thought possible prior to learning this RNG-fixing technique.

This is related because if we could "breed" equipment, manipulating the game to produce stats and/or abilities output, I would be much less opposed to the idea of equipment as long as the mechanics were made very clear and listed/placed on SWF and people were readily directed to them - and even then, I'd still probably want certain special effects gone (sorry, but passive heal shouldn't be legal in singles. The stupidity of playing catch with Sonic or Jiggs or Wario or some other very mobile character, while they constantly heal, is simply too dang high [like Fox Temple in Melee, except here they can actually even survive getting hit as long as it doesn't KO them and STILL not have to approach as long as they have tied stocks and the opponent has more than 0% on them, barring a very low amount of time left in the match]).

However, having no currently known ways to manipulate the equipment one is given, and having people like myself who still lack abilities most people would want legal (I lack smooth landing, I know a person who says he hasn't found a single piece of hard breaker gear at last check), I think it is not wise to host tournaments where equipment is legal at the main event.

That said, if someone wants to host both equipment-legal and equipment-banned, go nuts. I personally place priority to no-equipment tournaments because they are more accessible and people are less likely to feel lamed out by equipment shenanigans [how much would you want to enter a tournament again if your first experience was getting timed out by a constantly healing Jigglypuff? That would try anyone...], which is why I argue that the standard should be equipment-banned if TOs are holding only one Smash 4 3DS singles event at a tournament.

 

[Jack Kieser]

You know, if you feel so strongly about this, maybe, just maybe, you should actually try being a TO so you know what it is like before telling other TO's how to run their ****. Because you know what? When you make an event like a tournament, you schedule things. You rent a venue. You get commentators. You have everything set up and scheduled for the event. If you don't plan to run a side event at all because you wont have time or manpower, and suddenly a group large enough to fill a bracket comes up and asks to play equipment, and you say no, are you a bad guy? No. No you arent. However, if one of that group asks before the event (with fair notice) to host a side event in your venue during your tourney, that is a much more understandable scenario. If you say no without a reason,though; YOU ARE STILL IN THE RIGHT. How, you may be thinking? They didn't pay for the venue. They didn't set up the event, and you don't want their side event to detract from your event, and you dont want to deal with the hassle of figuring up how much they'll owe you for running their stuff in your space during your time frame. Its understandable. As a TO, you arent obligated to cater to every player group that runs your way. It will require a considerable amount of extra effort to do what you propose every TO should do. A TO's obligation is to their tournament and its community, not to the entire Smash community. Despite what you may think, the TO organized this tournament to cater to their target player base, and not every schmuck that walks in the doors. If they try to cater to every small group of players, they're going to stretch themselves thin with side events and detract from the overall experience. The best thing that these groups can do IS to host their own events.

I have been a TO and I've run both local and regional events, back when I lived in Texas. That's how I know that it's not that hard to set aside a few setups for a side event at a local or regional event, as long as you plan right.

I'm not going to bash my head against a wall on this. The fact of the matter is that some small time Twitch streamer or guy and his friends do not have the same obligation to their community that a large-scale, established, capitalized TO has. If you are a big enough deal to call yourself a Tournament Organizer, you are, effectively, a community organizer. You are a pillar of Smash, as a whole. And, if you think it's ok for our best and most capable TOs to ignore their own communities because they honestly don't give a **** about anyone who isn't M2K or Zero, and that this fact makes them good pillars for our community capable of helping us foster a deep, rich, broad, and inclusive competitive scene, nothing I can say here will convince you.

This is ISP all over again, and I won't have any part of it. If you haven't learned your lesson from 2008, then you won't learn it now.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I have been a TO and I've run both local and regional events, back when I lived in Texas. That's how I know that it's not that hard to set aside a few setups for a side event at a local or regional event, as long as you plan right.

I'm not going to bash my head against a wall on this. The fact of the matter is that some small time Twitch streamer or guy and his friends do not have the same obligation to their community that a large-scale, established, capitalized TO has. If you are a big enough deal to call yourself a Tournament Organizer, you are, effectively, a community organizer. You are a pillar of Smash, as a whole. And, if you think it's ok for our best and most capable TOs to ignore their own communities because they honestly don't give a **** about anyone who isn't M2K or Zero, and that this fact makes them good pillars for our community capable of helping us foster a deep, rich, broad, and inclusive competitive scene, nothing I can say here will convince you.

This is ISP all over again, and I won't have any part of it. If you haven't learned your lesson from 2008, then you won't learn it now.

So go on running tournaments the way you like to. The fact that not everyone treats the responsibility the same as you do does not make everyone else a bad TO. Your view of the role is incredibly narrow and closed minded. Plenty of TOs across the country run tournaments not your way and maintain a healthy community. Not all TOs are community organizers. I've been to fantastic tournaments that were run by game store employees, and I've been to terrible tournaments run by "community organizers". Stop acting like you hold the key to a healthy and flourishing smash community.

 

[Random4811]

I have been a TO and I've run both local and regional events, back when I lived in Texas. That's how I know that it's not that hard to set aside a few setups for a side event at a local or regional event, as long as you plan right.

I'm not going to bash my head against a wall on this. The fact of the matter is that some small time Twitch streamer or guy and his friends do not have the same obligation to their community that a large-scale, established, capitalized TO has. If you are a big enough deal to call yourself a Tournament Organizer, you are, effectively, a community organizer. You are a pillar of Smash, as a whole. And, if you think it's ok for our best and most capable TOs to ignore their own communities because they honestly don't give a **** about anyone who isn't M2K or Zero, and that this fact makes them good pillars for our community capable of helping us foster a deep, rich, broad, and inclusive competitive scene, nothing I can say here will convince you.

This is ISP all over again, and I won't have any part of it. If you haven't learned your lesson from 2008, then you won't learn it now.

Being a TO isnt a big deal. Anyone can be a TO. I could go out and organize a tournament around the nearest competitive scene. Thats the thing that you seem to have the biggest logic fault with. now you've switched to talking more about a seasoned, high caliber TO. Even then, your point doesnt withstand. The twitch streamer and the hosts of regional or national tournaments have the same obligation to their community. They are there to cater to the people attending their tournament. Not bill and his friends that show up and want to play Smash Run, or equipment games. I think the idea that these minorities vying for these side events are the communities of the TOs is inaccurate, unless they directly facilitate those side events and make your tournaments with them in mind. If not, your community is the community the tournament is aimed at. A minority of players does not represent the entire community. If they are interested in competitive play and also this more casual play, then they have options available to them. They can either accept the fact that they arent entitled to any special treatment by TOs and enjoy the event presented to them, or they can not ask the same TO's over and over again and try to find other TOs that might bend to their will, or they can organize their own event to host their game. Honestly, equipment and items dont make for deep, rich, broad competitive play. They make for casual play. Equipment more so than items, because certain items are much less cheap and instant wins than others- and much less broken than equipment sets. Trying to mix competitive play with casual play doesnt really work well. The two dont translate into eachother. The reason that nothing you say will convince me is because you make no valid points. Nothing you've said in terms of how TOs should run tournaments are plausible or make much sense, nor does your odd sense of community help anything. Honestly, I dont consider the guys who show up to complain about my events part of my community. Because they arent. They are part of their own communities, showing up in mine to try to get me to serve their goals.