Proposal: Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament? [Now with a poll]

[DatSmasher]

Custom moves is actually another thread.

Or equipment , my point is that everyone should just play in the tournaments they want to play in. The best way to do this imo is to just make tournaments with different rules, and at some point we'll see which is the "main" way of competitive smash 4.

 

[deepseadiva]

Or equipment , my point is that everyone should just play in the tournaments they want to play in. The best way to do this imo is to just make tournaments with different rules, and at some point we'll see which is the "main" way of competitive smash 4.

The discussion over the last four pages has been whether or not an equipment allowed tournament would be competitively viable.

Yes anyone can play what they want. There could be an "only smash balls allowed" metagame just as well.

The "fuss" has been 1) whether this version of the game tests skill and 2) whether anyone would actually want to play this seriously.

Basically no and no.

 

[Shack]

Sounds like everyone here should just host their own tourneys and see what the feedback is. Currently, custom moves are allowed in most and they should be until any of them are found to be broken.

Equipment will be tough to balance because some straight up give you items to start the match with. Also it will take a lot longer to set up on the Wii U version and a lot harder to make sure every system has the same equipment.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Or equipment , my point is that everyone should just play in the tournaments they want to play in. The best way to do this imo is to just make tournaments with different rules, and at some point we'll see which is the "main" way of competitive smash 4.

Nah, but that won't work. There is equipment that is ridiculously cheap or luck based, the Critical Hit modifiers being the most insane ones. This isn't an RPG like Pokemon where you can take your time and analyze your opponent's moveset, this is a fighting game that happens in real-time where each fraction of a second counts.

The critical hit is especially bad. Can you imagine if Peach pulled stitchface turnips, but the turnips themselves all looked the same?

I'm ok with custom moves, as long as we use custom moves and custom moves only.

 

[Captain Norris]

Link's Death Arrows are seriously a non-issue. It is on the same level as Warlock punch. It has an extremely long start up time and a predictable flight path.

You are assuming they are fully charged. they are still good with out the charge. :/

 

[Fortress]

(I JUST WOKE UP, SO PLEASE NOTE THAT WHEN I SAY 'ITEMS' I AM REFERRING TO CUSTOM EQUIPMENT, NOT IN-GAME SMASH ITEMS. MY BAD)

My opinion is kind of a mix of everybody's on here. If you're a TO, try new things, experiment, the game is still new just off the shelf, and nobody quite knows what to expect just yet. I'm personally running Mute City II, Arena Ferox, and Prism Tower at my tournament as the three counterpicks, something you wouldn't even consider in PM. Remember that in Melee, practically where the competitive scene for Smash as a whole started, they ran things like Peach's Castle in tournament settings. Feel free to experiment, but at the same time, keep it realistic, nobody wants a stage with a consistent walk off, or extremely active hazards.

As for items and move swaps, I think move swaps are totally fine. Adjust for your matchup, it's fair enough. If you're going to a tournament, you're basically expected to have everything unlocked and playable, at least for your own main (if you're not sharing your system for the tournament). For items, I think it's a bit different. Should be up to the TO, and personally I'd limit it to one item per-character so as to not make anything too crazy, and I would not recommend using anything that alters stats directly. Just having a character's speed change drastically or their power can completely alter the matchup, and in a much less consistent way than changing a move can. There are a million billion different alterations for stats, and it can be far too much to keep track of (this item increases speed by 20, this one by 22, this one by 23, this one by 24, and so on).

For items, I think there should be a list of a few items that TOs allow, and (again) none that directly alter stats so as to keep the experience consistent so that people don't need to adjust tournament-to-tournament.

 

[Wienn]

It's totally not fair those itens, if only they weren't that random.
http ://imageshack.com/a/img540/7213/S2wWmZ.jpg

I wish there was an easier way to change your custom moves. It's going to end it up that people might avoid it in tournaments because it's time consuming (or maybe not, Street Fighter IV is there to prove it - at least 1 extra minute every match to fix the controllers on the arcade stick). Palutena approves that, super sad her default set and being impossible to change it (considering her main gimmick in the game are her uniques 12 moves).

 

[Vanillascout]

I'd be perfectly fine with having customs-on tournaments alongside 'traditional' ones. There's obviously demand for customs-on tournaments, and part of the players interested in customs-on tournaments wouldn't go anywhere near traditional tournaments, and the other way around.

I'm personally interested in customs as well, it'd be nice to see what people can do with them.

It's totally not fair those itens, if only they weren't that random.
http ://imageshack.com/a/img540/7213/S2wWmZ.jpg

I wish there was an easier way to change your custom moves. It's going to end it up that people might avoid it in tournaments because it's time consuming (or maybe not, Street Fighter IV is there to prove it - at least 1 extra minute every match to fix the controllers on the arcade stick). Palutena approves that, super sad her default set and being impossible to change it (considering her main gimmick in the game are her uniques 12 moves).

You can make like 12 loadouts for each individual char, I really don't think there'd be much of a problem if players were required to have their loadouts ready at check-in.

 

[Garquille14]

The problem I see with equipment, even if everyone has 100% access to everything, is that how much attack and defense and speed you want is going to change against every character and every build they have. This could create a very time consuming counter-pick process in a scene that already has problems with time.

the metagame that would revolve equipment picking and counterpicking is just really dumb and time consuming

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I would say to allow things to be tested, but my initial opinion is:

Custom Moves: Yes
Equipment: No

Reasoning: I was making a Hank Hill Mii and gave him equipment...he got a home run bat. Meaning he can just run around and throw said bad, hit with said bat and K.O with said bat. That's not very balanced. A lot of the equipment is all over the board in regards to the drawbacks and positives.

With Custom Moves, it gives the player a different way to play and gives a different strategy. Equipment can make somebody overpowered depending on what you use.

That's just my two cents. I've not played a lot of competitive Smash (tournaments), but that's my stance on that.

Then again, testing needs to be done for any of this to be banned/not banned.

 

[DatSmasher]

The discussion over the last four pages has been whether or not an equipment allowed tournament would be competitively viable.

Yes anyone can play what they want. There could be an "only smash balls allowed" metagame just as well.

The "fuss" has been 1) whether this version of the game tests skill and 2) whether anyone would actually want to play this seriously.

Basically no and no.

1. Of course it tests skill. Maybe there's a little more luck involved, but there's still all the new things you can do with it. It may turn out there's actually more you can do this way, and bring more depth.

2. Well obviously some do. Openingspost is an example. Just that the mayority doesn't like it doesn't mean that no one wants to play it seriously.

 

[MagmarFire]

This may have been mentioned, but Extra Credits did an episode on randomness in e-sports. Considering equipment fits the random factor and is under scrutiny for that reason, I figure it's relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9ZI9kMsvRQ

While their round-robin solution may be logistically nightmarish, since there may not BE enough time to have a tournament run for months, it's still food for thought.

 

[rpgcaster]

Am cool with custom moves... and very much against equipment. The randomness of the equipment as mentioned is probably the greatest issue. I mean we can't guarantee equipment pieces because as far as I can tell there isn't a finite number to different possible equipment pieces. This means that if you pull some BS equipment piece no one else has, you have a massive advantage. On the flip side if you have nothing but crap... not much can be done.

On the custom moves side of things, it adds different ways for characters to play and can add some interesting variety to match ups in the game in general. In contrast to the equipment there is a set number of custom moves to grab so it's fine.

This may have been mentioned, but Extra Credits did an episode on randomness in e-sports. Considering equipment fits the random factor and is under scrutiny for that reason, I figure it's relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9ZI9kMsvRQ

While their round-robin solution may be logistically nightmarish, since there may not BE enough time to have a tournament run for months, it's still food for thought.

That was a nice watch but unlike the examples given, it's not like we're given random equipment to work with each match. If someone stuck with a stick verses someone with a sword... well they're stuck with the stick for the rest of that tourney. The luck and randomness isn't something that occurs within the scope of the competitive game in this case, but rather one that takes place out of it.

 

[Tristan_win]

I find it so strange how people think equipment should be allowed. I don't really care about stages, character match ups, rules, or whatever but the idea of having equipment as a standard I would fight to the end to make sure that doesn't happen. The only reason I haven't thrown down yet in this thread is because I don't see the need as thankfully I'm not alone with my thoughts about equipment.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Custom moves are okay, because they are still balanced: they have strengths, but also weaknesses, they also allows new strategies with the same character, which is nice and also allows the game to be a little more unpredictable, but nothing seems game-breaking or simply "broken".

Custom equipements, however, have the ability to increase your character overall stats with little to no consequences with their default metagame. In other words, ceratin characters will become "broken" with thew proper equipement. Heck, Brawl's Broken Knight will be nothing compared to what you could do with custom equipement. So, it should be banned.

 

[MagmarFire]

That was a nice watch but unlike the examples given, it's not like we're given random equipment to work with each match. If someone stuck with a stick verses someone with a sword... well they're stuck with the stick for the rest of that tourney. The luck and randomness isn't something that occurs within the scope of the competitive game in this case, but rather one that takes place out of it.

Hmm! Very fair point. Being stuck with something for an entire tournament would be akin to getting a bad role in a single match that determines the outcome of that same tournament.

I do argue, however, that randomness that lies outside of a tournament environment still yet affects the outcome of random elements and events in said environment and should still be considered. An RNG that gets its seed set by another RNG is still at the mercy of the outcome of the latter, to use a computer science example. Of course, considering every variable would probably be far too expensive, but the fact that these variables exists means that the outcomes of even the most regulated tournament environments don't exist in a vacuum.

Not that I'm saying many argue against that, mind, and to be fair, what I'm saying may not even be strictly relevant. So I'll concede, then.

 

[Count Bleck]

You know, I don't know why people are bringing Equipment that allows items up at all. Those equipment pieces are obvious day 1 bans due to items not bing used in a standard tourney set.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You know, I don't know why people are bringing Equipment that allows items up at all. Those equipment pieces are obvious day 1 bans due to items not bing used in a standard tourney set.

I don't really expect equipment to end up being mainstream legal (although side events for funsies are plausible), and I don't have enough of a stake to really argue for or against it in the first place, but if equipment is allowed I'd fully expect it to be restricted to pieces with no extra effects added, just raw +/- stat boosts. Seems a lot simpler than worrying about the balance of getting a free item on spawn, or healing 2% every few seconds, and so forth.

 

[B!squick]

The turn out for a tourny with equipment will be slim to none. Until something game breaking turns up in custom moves (quite possible) there's a chance for that. I mean, MKX is going to have something very similar. I think using the extra time afforded us by the game being portable is better spent on swiss rounds than squeezing in a custom moves and/or equipment tourny though.

I don't go to tournys though, so this doesn't really make a difference either way to me.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to point out that equipment that lets you spawn with items wont give you said item if items are set to off, making them worthless.

 

[JML]

Unfortunately I have a job and a significant other, and a social life. I have time to hone my skills, I don't have time to play with the RNG gods just to be on an level playing field. I imagine many other smashboarders are in the same boat as me.

Maybe if I was still in grade school with endless free time, it would be a different story. Especially because "OMGZ P0KEM0N $UPER $MASH BRAHS RPGZZZ!" is what every 10 year old is probably thinking.

But to each his/her own. Some people just like anchovies on their pizza (meh).
But as long as there is a large enough "no equips" camp for me to play with, I'm a happy camper.

This thread feels like Melee Vs. Brawl.

 

[ZombieBran]

Even ignoring the awful randomness of equipment and the logistical nightmare they'll be for setting up; I find the stat boosts equips give to be absolutely disgusting.

I don't imagine many people would attend equipment tourneys. It's farm or die to a Sheik who hits like a Warlock Punch with every move. Who wants that?

 

[ChikoLad]

Just going to throw this out there:

People are saying "equipment that gives you items are day 1 ban".

But the reason items were banned in tournaments was because of the random factor.

However, this isn't an issue with equipment that gives you items, as your opponent will see the item as soon as the match begins, and can prepare for it, and once you throw it away, it's gone. And if showing your opponent your custom loadout is a thing, then that's even more warning.

So I don't think even that should be something we should write off so soon.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It's farm or die to a Sheik who hits like a Warlock Punch with every move. Who wants that?

It's gonna hurt so good! :D

Jokes aside (if that was actually one), that is seriously broken and I really don't want to see any of it in OFFICIAL tournaments. If it's just for fun, then I guess it could be okay (unless it's broken of course)

 

[Veggi]

Has anyone found out how to start a match with items equipped while items are turned off? Whenever I have custom equipment on that says I'll start with an item, it only works when I have the items turned on.

 

[north-note]

in my opinion, i consider custom move "something like "unlock-able" part of the character and don't need to be banned. as everyone can access it. not allowing them is like not allowing unlock-able character in the tournament.

On the equipment part, it's too random and unpredictable as there are no known factor on how to obtain, so I understand why does people want them banned and I can accept that. however, equipment allow our dream character, or something close to it, to be possible. it's like you can tweak the character to be more ideal.(anyone frustrated from kirby's delayed attack anyone?)
to be honest, I actually wish we can use equipment in tournament.
you know, we could have 3 different kind of tournament, the classic competitive tournament, the free custom move tournament(custom move only) and dream character tournament( all custom allowed)
and if we are going to have restriction on equipment then my suggestion would be:
-no item equipment
-special ability that are deemed broken should banned(e.g. perfect barrier explosion, 2% healing per second)
- the total equipment stat change(including negative) should not exceed 70(the number may change based on average total stat change)
side note: attack stat do influence the outcome on life or death situation,as it influence knock back and damage dealt.
low attack stat do result make it harder to KO your opponent even at high percentage, which can result in your defeat. I learnt this the hard way as Kirby where I focus on speed and defense at cost of attack. oh, you should be able to turn off item by pressing x button on equipment before equipping them

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

in my opinion, i consider custom move "something like "unlock-able" part of the character and don't need to be banned. as everyone can access it. not allowing them is like not allowing unlock-able character in the tournament.

On the equipment part, it's too random and unpredictable as there are no known factor on how to obtain, so I understand why does people want them banned and I can accept that. however, equipment allow our dream character, or something close to it, to be possible. it's like you can tweak the character to be more ideal.(anyone frustrated from kirby's delayed attack anyone?)
to be honest, I actually wish we can use equipment in tournament.
you know, we could have 3 different kind of tournament, the classic competitive tournament, the free custom move tournament(custom move only) and dream character tournament( all custom allowed)
and if we are going to have restriction on equipment then my suggestion would be:
-no item equipment
-special ability that are deemed broken should banned(e.g. perfect barrier explosion, 2% healing per second)
- the total equipment stat change(including negative) should not exceed 70(the number may change based on average total stat change)
side note: attack stat do influence the outcome on life or death situation,as it influence knock back and damage dealt.
low attack stat do result make it harder to KO your opponent even at high percentage, which can result in your defeat. I learnt this the hard way as Kirby where I focus on speed and defense at cost of attack. oh, you should be able to turn off item by pressing x button on equipment before equipping them

This. It seriously seems like a great idea for the tournament scene, and you actually changed my mind, but for only, literally, one second.

 

[Gerpington]

Why is this still being argued.

Custom moves: Yes.

Custom equipment: Why? Like seriously why do people want these.

 

[SmashBro99]

Why is this still being argued.

Custom moves: Yes.

Custom equipment: Why? Like seriously why do people want these.

Basically this.

Custom moves are cool, and I don't see any as being "broken" so allowing some customization of JUST specials is just fine.

Equipment changing characters stats...is totally different, I don't get why anyone supports these at all.

 

[Gerpington]

Basically this.

Custom moves are cool, and I don't see any as being "broken" so allowing some customization of JUST specials is just fine.

Equipment changing characters stats...is totally different, I don't get why anyone supports these at all.

Bowser's dash grab though....that scares me. Only custom move that kind of scares me though.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Bowser's dash grab though....that scares me. Only custom move that kind of scares me though.

BWAHAHAHA!!! >:-)

It is, in a way, a very powerful punisher, and airborne Bowser-cide is even scarier when he dashes towards you in mid-air.

 

[Gerpington]

BWAHAHAHA!!! >:-)

It is, in a way, a very powerful punisher, and airborne Bowser-cide is even scarier when he dashes towards you in mid-air.

Very much so yes. Especially when that which suicides is that which is considered the winner.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Very much so yes. Especially when that which suicides is that which is considered the winner.

Good thing I'm a Bowser main in that game! >:-)

 

[Gerpington]

Good thing I'm a Bowser main in that game! >:-)

Rosalina side custom 3 spamming against you it is.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Rosalina side custom 3 spamming against you it is.

Spamming will lead you to defeat.

 

[Thor]

If equipment becomes an actual thing, and no bans, my goal is to get a Jigglypuff with triple passive heals, then for every match I gimp them once then run like hell for however long the match is (it's more like air camping, but whatever).

And even if I get hit, as long as it doesn't KO, healing 6% periodically will fix that rather quickly : P

Shenanigans like this idea are why I think custom equipment will be banned. It could be cool/amusing for some battles (imagine Lucario with three of the "trade-off attack buff" - 90% start each stock and do like 1.5X damage on top of aura), but my idea above is the kind of thing people would HATE to watch (how would you like to see someone ditto my Puff when we each use the same build?)

 

[Gerpington]

If equipment becomes an actual thing, and no bans, my goal is to get a Jigglypuff with triple passive heals, then for every match I gimp them once then run like hell for however long the match is (it's more like air camping, but whatever).

And even if I get hit, as long as it doesn't KO, healing 6% periodically will fix that rather quickly : P

Shenanigans like this idea are why I think custom equipment will be banned. It could be cool/amusing for some battles (imagine Lucario with three of the "trade-off attack buff" - 90% start each stock and do like 1.5X damage on top of aura), but my idea above is the kind of thing people would HATE to watch (how would you like to see someone ditto my Puff when we each use the same build?)

encouraging camping is not a thing that we should.

 

[Thor]

encouraging camping is not a thing that we should.

Last I checked, when I enter a tournament I play to win the game. I think this tactic would be highly effective, which is why I would do it, at least until someone found an answer.

I'm citing this primarily as a reason why I think custom equipment would be banned anyway, but if it's not, I'll do this at least once to see how well it works (if I can find another passive heal item at some point - got one early on but not any others [or any other super specials ones, really] since).

 

[Gerpington]

Last I checked, when I enter a tournament I play to win the game. I think this tactic would be highly effective, which is why I would do it, at least until someone found an answer.

I'm citing this primarily as a reason why I think custom equipment would be banned anyway, but if it's not, I'll do this at least once to see how well it works (if I can find another passive heal item at some point - got one early on but not any others [or any other super specials ones, really] since).

I am aware. That's why I'm saying this is a prime example of why equips shouldn't be allowed.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

As a TO equipment is never ever going to be allowed. Having limits on it seems like a solution, but it's not. The people calling for limits on equipment rather than outright bans probably aren't even TOs. A requirement of X boost with Z loss would take forever to regulate and monitor at the beginning of a tournament (I assume we check when people register), and I know that I and my entrants dont want to stand around waiting for 30+ 3DSs to be checked for all the possible equipment builds, 9 since that's how many custom builds you can have, just so that Billy can feel like his 30 hours of grinding was not in vain.

Seriously tournaments already take a long time. Why
add more with the cluster**** that is equipment? Not to generalize, but I'll hazard a guess that in addition to not being TOs a sizeable fraction of the people calling for equipment have never gone to competivite smash tournies either.


Just my $.02

Tl;Dr: Custom moves? Sure why not. Equipment? Not at any event I host bub.

 

[Gerpington]

As a TO equipment is never ever going to be allowed. Having limits on it seems like a solution, but it's not. The people calling for limits on equipment rather than outright bans probably aren't even TOs. A requirement of X boost with Z loss would take forever to regulate and monitor at the beginning of a tournament (I assume we check when people register), and I know that I and my entrants dont want to stand around waiting for 30+ 3DSs to be checked for all the possible equipment builds, 9 since that's how many custom builds you can have, just so that Billy can feel like his 30 hours of grinding was not in vain.

Seriously tournaments already take a long time. Why
add more with the cluster**** that is equipment? Not to generalize, but I'll hazard a guess that in addition to not being TOs a sizeable fraction of the people calling for equipment have never gone to competivite smash tournies either.


Just my $.02

Tl;Dr: Custom moves? Sure why not. Equipment? Not at any event I host bub.

*a competitive anything ever