Proposal: Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament? [Now with a poll]

[Ganreizu]

I don't want to waste stupid amount of time playing a mode I don't like just for the sake of getting every custom move possible

Uh. You can farm all custom moves in a matter of a few hours with pause buffering in classic mode.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Uh. You can farm all custom moves in a matter of a few hours with pause buffering in classic mode.

That still depends on RNGesus liking you enough to give you actual customs instead of equipment or Mii outfits. I was doing the pause buffering while clearing Classic with everyone for the challenge door and out of 6-8 drops per run I was lucky to get 2-3 custom moves. A couple of times I got literally none, it was all equipment and cosmetics.

 

[OFY]

This entire conversation is similar to SFXT and the gems. Some tournaments allowed the default gems that came with the game, not the DLC ones. Most complained that gems were too time consuming to configure before a match which makes sense. I can see this being a problem with smash 4 because of the overwhelming amount of options for equipment. Other than that, I believe they should be allowed as a test to see what happens.

 

[Malex]

I'd be down for custom movesets for 3DS tournaments, but only if someone could just tell me how to grind for them effectively. I ahve so much more fun just playing Versus and Online as opposed to Classic or Smash Run, and I don't want to waste stupid amount of time playing a mode I don't like just for the sake of getting every custom move possible

Play a character you need custom moves for.
Play classing on 9.
Choose the Red Path.
Push "Home" during the roulette wheel to ensure you get custom parts. Keep an eye out for higher numbers too!!

I have only ever gotten less than 5 custom moves twice. The best I ever did was 10 custom moves.

 

[sushifreAk]

I'm all for custom moves. Why the hell not, right?

 

[KACHOW!!!]

I just hate the thought of loosing to something like that, or winning because of an item. In my experience, variability ruins the competitiveness of smash. I'm sure there's going to be tournaments that allow that stuff, but anything I do in NH, which is where I'm trying to set up a smash community, I'll probably try to not have that stuff. But I think the MII fighters are fine.

 

[Illuvial]

Play a character you need custom moves for.
Play classing on 9.
Choose the Red Path.
Push "Home" during the roulette wheel to ensure you get custom parts. Keep an eye out for higher numbers too!!

I have only ever gotten less than 5 custom moves twice. The best I ever did was 10 custom moves.

Oh cool, that sounds like it makes it all a lot easier. Thanks man!

Now the interesting thing will be finding out how TOs will allow customization. For the 3DS Version its as simple as just bringing your 3DS, but once the WiiU version comes out it may get a bit trickier. Sure you could assume the 3DS transfer would work, but what about those that don't have the 3DS version at that point? I guess we'd just let them customize movesets inbetween and before matches - obviously - but will we make customization a blind choice (as in other players can't see other players choose moves)?

I dunno, but I'm interested to see how Custom Movesets are implemented if they do become permanently legal

 

[S2]

I just hate the thought of loosing to something like that, or winning because of an item. In my experience, variability ruins the competitiveness of smash. I'm sure there's going to be tournaments that allow that stuff, but anything I do in NH, which is where I'm trying to set up a smash community, I'll probably try to not have that stuff. But I think the MII fighters are fine.

Agreed. Mii fighters and custom moves I think are valid for tournament consideration as they still give a level playing field to both players. A custom special for both Miis and the regular cast are always the same move, you can prepare for them through match-up knowledge and practice.

The issue with equipment is that it doesn't give a level playing field to all players, it favors those who have done the most grinding for the highest stat items. As we move forward and have tournaments on Wii U, players are going to unlock all of the characters and custom specials. I'm sure someone will even find a way to copy and move save files as well. There is no unlocking all equipment as they're stats are random and the supply is endless. Equipment favors players who own a 3DS and have spent the most time grinding.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

The important thing to consider is what the players want. We can debate whether equipment is able to be balanced or not till the next Smash Bros comes out...but what do the players think?

Personally, I don't want to partake in a tournament that uses equipment.

That's not to say that think they shouldn't happen, but I'd prefer to use my time elsewhere. My own feelings is that equipment takes away from having to balance your character's strengths and weaknesses, particularly when there are builds with straight positive boosts. That may or may not actually be true, of course, but it's not something that I want to deal with.

However, I think custom moves are very welcome since there are fewer variables involved and allow players to make their own preferred choices for a character, without completely changing the way they play. For example, my Ganondorf currently runs 2122, and I have to say it's my favorite version of Ganondorf I've ever used. I'd be really disappointed if I could use this in tournament. I think, however, there will be tournaments with and those without custom moves allowed.

Back to equipment, though, I think seeing those used in side events would be fine, and allow people a chance to play around with those without taking away from the main event. That's just my two cents, though.

 

[Blue Warrior]

Reading Page 2's aggressive debate over theorycrafting and semantics gives me the impression that people are forgetting that we don't need to decide right now what every tournament should use in its ruleset. We aren't operating under Unity ruleset or some other contrived community dictatorship, so people can make tournament rules to be whatever they want, without having to worry about causing some weird chain reaction across other tournaments, or something. If it works, people will come to tournaments that allow equipment. If it doesn't, the basic rules of supply and demand will fade them out of existence.

I personally think allowing equipments in tourney play isn't a good idea due to many of the reasons already mentioned. That doesn't mean you can't try it out and see if people like it anyway.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

I suppose you're right, Blue warrior, but then I think about whats going to happen to the meta with all this garbage added in, and I shudder. I'm only saying what I'm saying because I'm trying to convince as many people as humanly possible NOT to use/allow custom moves AND custom equipment in tourneys. I still stand by the argument that the fundamental rule of smash bros is that if you're remotely familiar with the game, you should be able to look at a character and know every possible move they could put out. This is important because so much of the game on a competitive level is based on that skill of knowing what a character can do, but not knowing everything a character can do just by looking at them sort of breaks the game. I think this because If i wanted to go win a tournament, what i would do is pick a single (maybe 2) custom move that I'd use for kills (not to build up % on my opponent, strictly kills to keep it fresh), then work my opponent until I use that kill move. If they have no idea what it is because its a custom move, then I might basically get a free kill for free, just because my opponent wouldn't know if i was going to use one of 3 or more moves. I think thats clearly a game breaking strategy that would give an unfair advantage to any player. You could say "well its fair because anyone could do it", but is it really even the same game if we all just go into a tourney with custom secret weapon moves? Should my opponent be allowed to choose custom moves, but I have to see what they've chosen before we fight? What happens when someone figures out how to break the game with that? I guess it would be balanced because we would ban anything too game breaking, but I just think its like a turd in the punchbowl of smash to have any real character variability. I think mii fighters custom options is all we should allow, because Mii fighter should be allowed as a character, and custom moves are inherent to the mii fighter.

 

[Malex]

I suppose you're right, Blue warrior, but then I think about whats going to happen to the meta with all this garbage added in, and I shudder. I'm only saying what I'm saying because I'm trying to convince as many people as humanly possible NOT to use/allow custom moves AND custom equipment in tourneys. I still stand by the argument that the fundamental rule of smash bros is that if you're remotely familiar with the game, you should be able to look at a character and know every possible move they could put out. This is important because so much of the game on a competitive level is based on that skill of knowing what a character can do, but not knowing everything a character can do just by looking at them sort of breaks the game. I think this because If i wanted to go win a tournament, what i would do is pick a single (maybe 2) custom move that I'd use for kills (not to build up % on my opponent, strictly kills to keep it fresh), then work my opponent until I use that kill move. If they have no idea what it is because its a custom move, then I might basically get a free kill for free, just because my opponent wouldn't know if i was going to use one of 3 or more moves. I think thats clearly a game breaking strategy that would give an unfair advantage to any player. You could say "well its fair because anyone could do it", but is it really even the same game if we all just go into a tourney with custom secret weapon moves? Should my opponent be allowed to choose custom moves, but I have to see what they've chosen before we fight? What happens when someone figures out how to break the game with that? I guess it would be balanced because we would ban anything too game breaking, but I just think its like a turd in the punchbowl of smash to have any real character variability. I think mii fighters custom options is all we should allow, because Mii fighter should be allowed as a character, and custom moves are inherent to the mii fighter.

The claim "players will not be able to know all possible moves an enemy can put out" is not affected by equipment or customs.

Scenario: "What if i put a kill move into a custom move slot? How would my opponent know?"

Your opponent knows that for that special, one of those moves is a kill option. If you haven't used that special for the entire match, and now he is at kill %, he should expect you to have that custom over anything else. Once you use the move once, he will know for sure which custom move you have, but until then he just needs to operate under the assumption that it is a kill move, because you haven't used it all so far in the match, and now he's at kill %.

Then it's OK for Mii's to have custom moves? Why wouldn't you force 1111 Mii's? Why aren't you concerned about people using their own Miis, where you won't know the height/weight!


Ultimately, there has been little to no evidence that equipment is unbalanced. There has been no evidence that custom moves are unbalanced. However, equipment should not be standard because of barrier to entry. Custom moves are fine (for now.)

 

[Gatoray]

I'd like to add something to the discussion. There is one major technicality of saying "let's allow custom moves but no equipment" or "let's allow just 1 smooth landing equipment". This technicality is that when you turn that custom move wrench on, you are automatically enabling everything related to customization whether you like it or not.

Thankfully, during a local match you are able to tell if and what kind of equipment your opponent is using (AFAIK), but you cannot tell during an online match. Therefore, allowing custom moves in online tournaments, even if they are legal, leaves the tournament wide open to cheaters that may slightly buff their stats with equipment to have an advantage.

Sure, online tournaments are less serious, so it makes more sense to me to just allow all customizations or allow no customizations, one or the other. Especially since both players automatically pick their characters and stages in a double-blind setting making counterpicking impossible without a method of communication outside of the game.

 

[elitex12]

I'd like to add something to the discussion. There is one major technicality of saying "let's allow custom moves but no equipment" or "let's allow just 1 smooth landing equipment". This technicality is that when you turn that custom move wrench on, you are automatically enabling everything related to customization whether you like it or not.

Thankfully, during a local match you are able to tell if and what kind of equipment your opponent is using (AFAIK), but you cannot tell during an online match. Therefore, allowing custom moves in online tournaments, even if they are legal, leaves the tournament wide open to cheaters that may slightly buff their stats with equipment to have an advantage.

Sure, online tournaments are less serious, so it makes more sense to me to just allow all customizations or allow no customizations, one or the other. Especially since both players automatically pick their characters and stages in a double-blind setting making counterpicking impossible without a method of communication outside of the game.

Well really, you could just make a custom character purely for the moveset and then not add any sort of equipment.

 

[Gatoray]

Well really, you could just make a custom character purely for the moveset and then not add any sort of equipment.

Yes, you can. But still, how do you enforce that online if you can't see if they have equipment on? That's my point.

 

[JoeTango]

I think we should allow customization for 3DS tournaments, but not Wii U. The Wii U game should be the one for the more serious competition and the 3DS game should be for something a little more casual. Still have all the rules as the Wii U version but just allow custom moves and equipment. Although thats just me, I know some people probably want to make the 3DS version just as competitive because of how much easier it is to run 3DS tournaments without the hassle of limited setups. While that is a fair point, it would be a ton of fun to allow full customization. And that is the most important thing about playing this game, having fun.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

Maybe JoeTango 's idea is best. I just think there should be a tournament competitive mode that doesn't allow that extra stuff. So if 3ds allowed custom moves and/or equipment, that might be balanced. I've also heard of the idea of making the fast land equipment manditory, and just have that piece of equipment on every player, that would be balanced too, unless we find out something gamebreaking later. I suppose its really going to be up to the people who host the tournaments, because if its your tourney you set the rules.

 

[Malex]

Maybe JoeTango 's idea is best. I just think there should be a tournament competitive mode that doesn't allow that extra stuff. So if 3ds allowed custom moves and/or equipment, that might be balanced. I've also heard of the idea of making the fast land equipment manditory, and just have that piece of equipment on every player, that would be balanced too, unless we find out something gamebreaking later. I suppose its really going to be up to the people who host the tournaments, because if its your tourney you set the rules.

• If it is balanced in 3DS, we can expect it to be balanced in WiiU. So if custom moves + equipment is balanced on 3DS, it should be balanced on Wii U too. (This is a reasonable expectation, but may ultimately prove not to be true. Need more info on Wii U)

• Requiring Smooth Lander would be an absolute logistical nightmare.
  • How would you handle different smooth lander stat adjustments?
  • What if a player doesn't want to have smooth lander enabled for some reason?
  • What if a player can't unlock a smoother lander piece of equipment?

I think we should allow customization for 3DS tournaments, but not Wii U. The Wii U game should be the one for the more serious competition and the 3DS game should be for something a little more casual. Still have all the rules as the Wii U version but just allow custom moves and equipment. Although thats just me, I know some people probably want to make the 3DS version just as competitive because of how much easier it is to run 3DS tournaments without the hassle of limited setups. While that is a fair point, it would be a ton of fun to allow full customization. And that is the most important thing about playing this game, having fun.

Why should the Wii U game be "more serious" than the 3DS game?

Playing the game is about having fun. Tournaments are not for fun. The purpose of a tournament is to identify and reward skilled players. Some people think tournaments are fun.​

 

[KACHOW!!!]

Malex, I agree with your first point, about how if it's balanced on 3ds, we might expect it to be balanced on wii u, but only time will tell that.

The smooth lander thing I don't think would be too dificult, given that everyone interested in high level competitive play would probably have no problem sinking that amount of hours.

The only way we could tell how to handle smooth lander adjustments is trial by fire. I guess the community should decide which is more balanced. That being said, I haven't even unlocked the smooth lander, I've just heard about it, so its not like i even know how it really functions in the game, I've just heard that it opens up a lot of new options for tourney play.

Why should the 3ds be considered "more serious" than the 3ds game?
Well, the game is basically a system destroyer for one. But for the most part, because of the c stick. That and the fact that, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it really terrible when you're trying to have a bunch of wireless signals all in the same area? I'm not sure if it does cause problems, but I'm pretty sure it is difficult, if you where to have say 20 +3ds's running in the same local area.

I guess we just differ in our opinions of fun, and being that opinions are subjective, thats fine. I personally find the idea of getting good and becoming the best really fun, sort of like the Ash Catch'em of smash playing. But overall, you make some great points Malex.

Also, if I could have it anyway I wanted it, I would ban all custom moves, custom equipment, and anything variable besides mii fighters.

 

[Lozjam]

Malex, I agree with your first point, about how if it's balanced on 3ds, we might expect it to be balanced on wii u, but only time will tell that.

The smooth lander thing I don't think would be too dificult, given that everyone interested in high level competitive play would probably have no problem sinking that amount of hours.

The only way we could tell how to handle smooth lander adjustments is trial by fire. I guess the community should decide which is more balanced. That being said, I haven't even unlocked the smooth lander, I've just heard about it, so its not like i even know how it really functions in the game, I've just heard that it opens up a lot of new options for tourney play.

Why should the 3ds be considered "more serious" than the 3ds game?
Well, the game is basically a system destroyer for one. But for the most part, because of the c stick. That and the fact that, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it really terrible when you're trying to have a bunch of wireless signals all in the same area? I'm not sure if it does cause problems, but I'm pretty sure it is difficult, if you where to have say 20 +3ds's running in the same local area.

I guess we just differ in our opinions of fun, and being that opinions are subjective, thats fine. I personally find the idea of getting good and becoming the best really fun, sort of like the Ash Catch'em of smash playing. But overall, you make some great points Malex.

Also, if I could have it anyway I wanted it, I would ban all custom moves, custom equipment, and anything variable besides mii fighters.

Banning custom moves literally unbalances the game. Characters that would be considered low tier would stay that way. Do you want an unbalanced game like Melee and Brawl? Custom moves gives almost every character more variety and viability. Why would you want to take away a balanced game? That's sort of like telling a Shulk main not to use his neutral b.

 

[Malex]

Malex, I agree with your first point, about how if it's balanced on 3ds, we might expect it to be balanced on wii u, but only time will tell that.

The smooth lander thing I don't think would be too dificult, given that everyone interested in high level competitive play would probably have no problem sinking that amount of hours.

The only way we could tell how to handle smooth lander adjustments is trial by fire. I guess the community should decide which is more balanced. That being said, I haven't even unlocked the smooth lander, I've just heard about it, so its not like i even know how it really functions in the game, I've just heard that it opens up a lot of new options for tourney play.

Actually, this appears to be very difficult. For instance, you are going to require all players to obtain "smooth lander." But all of them will have different stats. Which stats will be allowed? Any as long as it's only 1 piece? Then you have to farm even MORE so you can get the best "Smooth Lander" equipment you can find. Perhaps stats that fall into a range of values? Well, now you STILL have to farm more because anything outside the range is useless. Maybe you can use any piece of as long as you bring the values to within a certain range using other equipment? Well, now you have to farm THREE pieces of equipment that balance out, which is even worse than the other scenarios.

You need...
To obtain a "smooth lander equipment"
that is useable on that character
that has stats that are legal
that has stats that are optimal

Keep in mind that the first step "obtaining a smooth lander equipment" is already extremely time consuming and completely reliant on RNG.

So, any rules set that requires "equipment X" will absolutely not work. There are only two possible scenarios. "All equipment a player has." or "No equipment." If we allow equipment, it will be necessary to farm gear to maximize advantages and minimize disadvantages. This isn't to say that equipment-play itself is unbalanced, just that it is "unfair" for players who haven't obtained as much equipment. The "unfair"-ness here is that each player in a fighting game has the same resources. (They can choose from the same characters / moves.) When you add equipment, each player won't have access to the same equipment, and therefore, one of them will have an advantage in more resources.

Why should the 3ds be considered "more serious" than the 3ds game?
Well, the game is basically a system destroyer for one. But for the most part, because of the c stick. That and the fact that, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it really terrible when you're trying to have a bunch of wireless signals all in the same area? I'm not sure if it does cause problems, but I'm pretty sure it is difficult, if you where to have say 20 +3ds's running in the same local area.

I guess we just differ in our opinions of fun, and being that opinions are subjective, thats fine. I personally find the idea of getting good and becoming the best really fun, sort of like the Ash Catch'em of smash playing. But overall, you make some great points Malex.

Also, if I could have it anyway I wanted it, I would ban all custom moves, custom equipment, and anything variable besides mii fighters.

• Game destroys system
  • Players have the ability to input highly technical commands without destroying their systems. It may be difficult, but it is true. This is this hilarious, but it should not impact our opinion of the game itself.
    
  • If a player did break his 3DS during a match, I would not stop fighting him, and expect to be awarded the point. (Same goes for if I break my own 3DS)
• No C-stick
  • New 3DS has a C-stick
  • C-stick not required for a game to be taken seriously
• Wireless signals in the same area
  • If this were an issue, I think that it could be meaningfully impacted by walking across the room.

I have fun in many different ways. One of them is participating in tournaments, but the main "goal" of a tournament is not for everyone to have fun. Unless it's a children's sport's league, I suppose.

Banning custom moves literally unbalances the game. Characters that would be considered low tier would stay that way. Do you want an unbalanced game like Melee and Brawl? Custom moves gives almost every character more variety and viability. Why would you want to take away a balanced game? That's sort of like telling a Shulk main not to use his neutral b.

Excluding custom moves doesn't make the game unbalanced necessarily. You say, "Characters that would be considered low tier would stay that way." Well, tiers are determined by tournament results. So, with customs or without them, there will be a low tier. So what have the customs really accomplished in this regard other than choosing Character X over Character Y?

Also, without tournament data, we can't really say for sure if customs vs no customs are balanced. We can say customs add variability, and variability allows characters to be viable in more match ups, but it also leads the risk of allows characters to shut down ones they otherwise couldn't. So, it is kind of a two-edged sword.

 

[elitex12]

Actually, this appears to be very difficult. For instance, you are going to require all players to obtain "smooth lander." But all of them will have different stats. Which stats will be allowed? Any as long as it's only 1 piece? Then you have to farm even MORE so you can get the best "Smooth Lander" equipment you can find. Perhaps stats that fall into a range of values? Well, now you STILL have to farm more because anything outside the range is useless. Maybe you can use any piece of as long as you bring the values to within a certain range using other equipment? Well, now you have to farm THREE pieces of equipment that balance out, which is even worse than the other scenarios.

You need...
To obtain a "smooth lander equipment"
that is useable on that character
that has stats that are legal
that has stats that are optimal

Keep in mind that the first step "obtaining a smooth lander equipment" is already extremely time consuming and completely reliant on RNG.

So, any rules set that requires "equipment X" will absolutely not work. There are only two possible scenarios. "All equipment a player has." or "No equipment." If we allow equipment, it will be necessary to farm gear to maximize advantages and minimize disadvantages. This isn't to say that equipment-play itself is unbalanced, just that it is "unfair" for players who haven't obtained as much equipment. The "unfair"-ness here is that each player in a fighting game has the same resources. (They can choose from the same characters / moves.) When you add equipment, each player won't have access to the same equipment, and therefore, one of them will have an advantage in more resources.

• Game destroys system
  • Players have the ability to input highly technical commands without destroying their systems. It may be difficult, but it is true. This is this hilarious, but it should not impact our opinion of the game itself.
    
  • If a player did break his 3DS during a match, I would not stop fighting him, and expect to be awarded the point. (Same goes for if I break my own 3DS)
• No C-stick
  • New 3DS has a C-stick
  • C-stick not required for a game to be taken seriously
• Wireless signals in the same area
  • If this were an issue, I think that it could be meaningfully impacted by walking across the room.

I have fun in many different ways. One of them is participating in tournaments, but the main "goal" of a tournament is not for everyone to have fun. Unless it's a children's sport's league, I suppose.



Excluding custom moves doesn't make the game unbalanced necessarily. You say, "Characters that would be considered low tier would stay that way." Well, tiers are determined by tournament results. So, with customs or without them, there will be a low tier. So what have the customs really accomplished in this regard other than choosing Character X over Character Y?

Also, without tournament data, we can't really say for sure if customs vs no customs are balanced. We can say customs add variability, and variability allows characters to be viable in more match ups, but it also leads the risk of allows characters to shut down ones they otherwise couldn't. So, it is kind of a two-edged sword.

I say just keep the custom moves and say "No Equipment." Thats a solution for local tourneys, for online tourneys though I could see just sticking with the default characters due to the fact that it won't show the stats in online mode.

 

[Malex]

I say just keep the custom moves and say "No Equipment." Thats a solution for local tourneys, for online tourneys though I could see just sticking with the default characters due to the fact that it won't show the stats in online mode.

I'm confused. You say "no equipment," then go on to say that stats aren't shown. In online mode, doesn't the little icon next to the character display if there are stat adjustments? Unless you mean to say that you can't see custom moves.

In which case... who cares? There is zero - very little advantage in having the "hidden information" of your custom moves.

 

[elitex12]

I'm confused. You say "no equipment," then go on to say that stats aren't shown. In online mode, doesn't the little icon next to the character display if there are stat adjustments? Unless you mean to say that you can't see custom moves.

In which case... who cares? There is zero - very little advantage in having the "hidden information" of your custom moves.

I truthfully haven't really played online mode with customization on. Most of my friends I play with online like having the default moves only (they're weird about that), so I don't know if it does or does not show your exact stats in online mode. If it does then the whole thing with no stat altering equipment would apply like in Local Tourneys, but allow you to still use custom moves to your hearts content. I could care less if custom moves were able to be seen though, it makes matches more interesting and keeps you guessing the opponents moves.

 

[rhysmorgan]

I honestly don't ever see equipment pieces being legal. its allowing a character to possibly have an unfair advantage against another and with how many there are its just too random to what every system would get and it would get ridiculous.

Customs I don't see a problem with. Lets see how far we can break a character with custom moves

But that character won't have an unfair advantage, because the opponent will also be able to create custom character builds.

 

[Blue Warrior]

I think custom moves are potentially really great for competitive play. Some characters that have glaring flaws with default settings become a lot better when you allow them to equip a custom move that is well designed. While it's possible that a god tier character could become even stronger with a custom move, tournament organizers could potentially blacklist certain moves as a way of regulating character balance, so I think having custom moves available ultimately works in the tournament's favor. I think the key objective here should be to get as many characters relevant as possible at the top level without reducing the accessibility or skill-indexing of the tournament gameplay, and I don't think custom moves are grindy or variable enough to be disruptive.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

But that character won't have an unfair advantage, because the opponent will also be able to create custom character builds.

The main fear about other characters having custom moves is that the game would be too unbalanced is that one move in particular on a specific character might be too powerful, and in a situation like that, we might all have to play the same character if we wanted to be competitive.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

My previous years with pokemon spark up with this discussion. I agree with the proposal, this is something entirely new, what could ALL this potential meta game defining stuff be and will it go undiscovered? We can't know how potentially cool things these items can bring to the game. Even looking back at the pokemon model, before doing stuff like breeding for IV was time consuming grunt work, then people figured out the RNG and now a highly competitive metagame can thrive. There is the casual appeal that the series inherently provides as a whole and with all these new interesting mechanics, it can interest new players into the competitive scene once they see how efficiently equipment and effects can be used. If things become too overcentralizing, we just have to have a good way to do suspect tests and proper banning. Because these are just little optional things, we can do sweep bans, not just metaknights can't use this effect,this effect or this effect. In addition to that, because it's not banning characters all together, the community as a whole will be more open to banning things because its not just banning an overcentralizing character, and keeps those who are ban happy at bay while the meta continues to develop (Look at metaknight's history in brawl).

I can see how people can argue the "we want to keep with nintendo thing" but who says there can't be two different meta games for this game? Why can't there be a 'for glory' meta, a nintendo tournament meta, a wifi tournament meta (we can even do leagues like starcraft or lol), and an in person meta, all with little variations that players can quickly switch to (Like Final Destination Only, or Equipment Allowed, or More/Less Stocks). The possibilities are endless and can appeal to different players. The important thing for the growth of this game as a whole is to appeal to players looking for different experiences and can find engaging meta in those experiences. I will again reference pokemon, which has tiers that ban certain pokemon, they have different types of battles like singles, doubles, rotation, triples, all with thriving meta games and their own sub-meta games that have a huge player base (Like VGC double or Smogon Doubles). If we want to be a big e-sport, we can look at it from the angle of just getting the name out there, different leagues and tournaments aren't a bad thing.

 

[Captain Norris]

The main fear about other characters having custom moves is that the game would be too unbalanced is that one move in particular on a specific character might be too powerful, and in a situation like that, we might all have to play the same character if we wanted to be competitive.

Like Link and his custom arrows with the equipment.

 

[Count Bleck]

Simple solution with equipment:

* Set a stat range that all players must abide by.

* Limit what kind of equipment can be used in competitive play

* Make it so that only one type of equipment can be used per person. As in, no Bowers with double or triple attack buffs.

Even at +60 attack, attacks get buffed by only 10%. I think it would be a waste to completely ignore the features equipment can bring. I vote that it should at least be tested and observed in a tournament format.

Link to Equipment discussion thread. And the Equipment Math thread. For easy access to the info we know about equipment.

 

[deepseadiva]

Omfg I totally lost it at "death arrow"

xD

 

[RWB]

The Pokemon item comparison doesn't even make sense, since those have set effects, rather than randomized stats.

 

[rhysmorgan]

But Pokémon themselves have randomised stats in regards to their Individual Values.
Stats are not something you get to see either, whereas I think most people are suggesting that you should be allowed to see equipment before a set.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I'm all for custom moves, but not down for the custom items.

Simply put, the combinations you can make can drastically change the strategies employed against certain characters. With custom moves, you only introduce 2 more options per special move that you would need to watch out for. It may be a lot of data to memorize, but it's doable. But with custom equipment? The boundaries are close to non-existent.

 

[Malex]

I think custom moves are potentially really great for competitive play. Some characters that have glaring flaws with default settings become a lot better when you allow them to equip a custom move that is well designed. While it's possible that a god tier character could become even stronger with a custom move, tournament organizers could potentially blacklist certain moves as a way of regulating character balance, so I think having custom moves available ultimately works in the tournament's favor. I think the key objective here should be to get as many characters relevant as possible at the top level without reducing the accessibility or skill-indexing of the tournament gameplay, and I don't think custom moves are grindy or variable enough to be disruptive.

We shouldn't be balancing the game on a character level basis. If something is OP (akuma from SFT2 level OP) then we ban it, if not, we don't ban it. So, blacklisting moves for character balance would be a terrible idea and there would be riots in the streets. Imagine going to tournament to find that the TOs arbitrarily banned moves they felt were "too good."

The main fear about other characters having custom moves is that the game would be too unbalanced is that one move in particular on a specific character might be too powerful, and in a situation like that, we might all have to play the same character if we wanted to be competitive.

If there is a custom move that forces players to use it or they can't win, then we can ban the custom move. This doesn't seem to be the case and we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

Simple solution with equipment:

* Set a stat range that all players must abide by.

* Limit what kind of equipment can be used in competitive play

* Make it so that only one type of equipment can be used per person. As in, no Bowers with double or triple attack buffs.

Even at +60 attack, attacks get buffed by only 10%. I think it would be a waste to completely ignore the features equipment can bring. I vote that it should at least be tested and observed in a tournament format.

Link to Equipment discussion thread. And the Equipment Math thread. For easy access to the info we know about equipment.

-I think setting a stat range is a pointless endeavor, the game already penalizes you for trying to obtain a very high stat.

-Limiting equipment creates an even higher entry barrier, because you have to farm them and now some of them are useless.

-Players are already penalized for stacking equipment (with diminishing returns). So, why limit it this way? It doesn't reduce the entry barrier because you will still be grinding for the three best pieces of equipment.

+60 attacks get buffed by +37%.
While I agree that equipment may be balanced, the barrier to entry is really high.

Omfg I totally lost it at "death arrow"

xD

Like Link and his custom arrows with the equipment.

Link's Death Arrows are seriously a non-issue. It is on the same level as Warlock punch. It has an extremely long start up time and a predictable flight path.

 

[deepseadiva]

Regardless of the fact no one actually wants to play this seriously:

This really seems like it leads down the path to degeneracy. This "whole new world" metagame probably only leads to Flying Sonic vs Flying Jigglypuff Stall-a-thon. I don't believe in the fantasy that this will be PokéSmash with exciting back and forth stat changes and move sets to counter and recounter the meta... this kinda thing will dissolve into one character, with one abusable moveset. That's the effect of polarization.

Not that anyone can tell you what to do. But the popularity of this might be like five actual people. I'll rent the ball pit.

 

[popsofctown]

So, if you have a tournament, and you have time for a main event and a low tier tournament or a main event and an equipment tournament, which one would you rather run? Open question.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Why is Pokemon being brought up here as a an argument for custom moves?

Pokemon is in an entirely different game genre from Smash Bros. Simply put, an RPG != a fighting game.

Sorry to sound harsh, but it's that simple: in a Pokemon match, you have all the time in the world to do what you want to do (or if you play VGC or some other format, you have a 15 min. timer). In Smash, every second matters, you can't possibly memorize all the values for the perfect speed / power / defense set that you and your opponent equip, and you don't have enough time to fully adjust to every little tweak that your opponent throws at you. You do a lot more in a match of smash: worry about execution, frame data, hitboxes, etc. In Pokemon, all you worry about is the other set and picking the right move for that turn. Smash =/= Pokemon.

 

[DatSmasher]

2 metagames. 1 with custom moves and one without. what's the fuss about?

 

[deepseadiva]

2 metagames. 1 with custom moves and one without. what's the fuss about?

Custom moves is actually another thread.