Proposal: Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament? [Now with a poll]

[FrameImperfect]

tl;dr yea to Custom Moves, nay to equipment.

 

[nintyplayer]

No, that isn't fair to the people not willing to spend 200+ hours trying to get that specific piece they need for a set. The whole point of a tournament is to see who the better player is, not who grinded the longest, or who got lucky and got good pieces easier.

I don't like how this community somehow has it in their heads (at least some people in the community) that extremely small boons to a character and slight variability in the kind of, say, Pikachu that you play against suddenly means that the worse player will win.
You wouldn't see this in Pokemon for a second. I might be playing against a Pokemon whose best stat is special defense, so I use a physical attack against it, only to learn that they've boosted physical defense. The best players will be able to work around any kind of surprise. Being good at smash means more than just memorizing how a certain character usually is affected by your attacks.
Fact is, it's part of the game. Deal with it.

With that being said, I support certain things and certain combinations being banned if they prove to be game-breaking. However, outright banning custom moves and equipment is sheer laziness and is absurd. Especially if the opponent is told exactly which custom equips and moves are being used by the player, there is literally NO aspect of "randomness" unless on a piece of equipment which provides an aspect of randomness. Those few individual pieces can be banned, certainly.

Or people could just focus on turning this game into Melee and allow the community to stagnate. It's the choice of the community.

 

[Untouch]

Well the twitch nintendo stream is trying this, lets see how it goes.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

I don't like how this community somehow has it in their heads (at least some people in the community) that extremely small boons to a character and slight variability in the kind of, say, Pikachu that you play against suddenly means that the worse player will win.
You wouldn't see this in Pokemon for a second. I might be playing against a Pokemon whose best stat is special defense, so I use a physical attack against it, only to learn that they've boosted physical defense. The best players will be able to work around any kind of surprise. Being good at smash means more than just memorizing how a certain character usually is affected by your attacks.
Fact is, it's part of the game. Deal with it.

With that being said, I support certain things and certain combinations being banned if they prove to be game-breaking. However, outright banning custom moves and equipment is sheer laziness and is absurd. Especially if the opponent is told exactly which custom equips and moves are being used by the player, there is literally NO aspect of "randomness" unless on a piece of equipment which provides an aspect of randomness. Those few individual pieces can be banned, certainly.

Or people could just focus on turning this game into Melee and allow the community to stagnate. It's the choice of the community.

No, This doesn't have anything to do with being surprised, it has to do with equal opportunity. It's impossible to realistically think everyone will have all of the pieces. And yes, there is an aspect of randomness. You tell me of a specific method to directly control which piece you get every time, and MAYBE it would make sense to have a place in a tourney.

"Being good at smash means more than just memorizing how a certain character usually is affected by your attacks.
Fact is, it's part of the game. Deal with it."

So basically by this you must support items and all stages for tourney play too because it's part of the game, huh?
I think i'm done here.

 

[nintyplayer]

No, This doesn't have anything to do with being surprised, it has to do with equal opportunity. It's impossible to realistically think everyone will have all of the pieces. And yes, there is an aspect of randomness. You tell me of a specific method to directly control which piece you get every time, and MAYBE it would make sense to have a place in a tourney.

"Being good at smash means more than just memorizing how a certain character usually is affected by your attacks.
Fact is, it's part of the game. Deal with it."

So basically by this you must support items and all stages for tourney play too because it's part of the game, huh?
I think i'm done here.

>This doesn't have anything to do with being surprised, it has to do with equal opportunity.
If I play a low-tier character against a high-tier character, it's not an equal chance of victory. I can close that gap, effectively balancing the match, through equipment. Granted, my opponent can also use equipment. However, what advantage does this give him? A slight boost to some aspect of the character? Nothing is game breaking with the equips and if you spent some time playing around with them you would know that.

>It's impossible to realistically think everyone will have all of the pieces
That's absolutely true, but does every Pokemon player have all 600+ Pokemon? The answer is, obviously, no. And what player honestly gets every single equitable item in the game? Very few. It would also give players an incentive to play the game more than just their main with no items on FD with 3 stocks at 8 minutes over and over and over again. What was that joke again? No items, Fox only, Final Destination? The joke is accurate, and that's disgusting.

>You tell me of a specific method...
While I'm sure there's some way to abuse the RNG of the game, I won't lie; there's probably no way to guarantee getting the equipment piece that you want. But what is so wrong with working with the tools that you're given? Why stop a player from building the character the way that they want?

>MAYBE it would make sense to have a place in a tourney
A good Smash player SHOULD not only be able to deal with these slight variations in their opponents, because honestly the character changes more from person-to-person than it possibly can from equipment piece to equipment piece, but also be capable of playing the game outside of strictly the competitive game just to enjoy it and unlock whatever the game throws at them while doing so. Is dealing with variations in playstyles and equipment pieces not also an aspect of measuring skill?

>You must support items
The absolute random generation of items makes them too unpredictable to allow in the game. The smash ball, on the other hand, should be perfectly acceptable and I see no reason why not to allow it in competitive play. Saying "Well, it's an item, and we've banned all other items, so we should ban it too" is bordering on logical fallacy.

>And all stages
I support all stages with a few exceptions. But lowering it down to 2-4 acceptable stages that people just pick between over and over again not only makes the game less enjoyable for everyone involved, it also allows the players to stagnate. Any stage which has an absolutely random mechanic (such as the random effects in the Wario level) should be banned. Any stage which has a few small but not game-breaking mechanics, such as that pretty little pink cloud Earthbound stage, should be allowed.

You seem to think that the only measure of skill is playing on FD between two players over and over. There is skill in avoiding stage obstacles and using them to your advantage as well, and you would do well to open your mind.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

About custom equipement....

I'm not saying I'm OK with it's use in tourneys (in fact, I am not), but I think we should at least give it a try. After all, you can't judge a meal without tasting it, right?

 

[SphericalCrusher]

Long story short, is because competitive Smash is all about skill... when you take another element like items it takes away from being fair and even.

 

[Venks]

>This doesn't have anything to do with being surprised, it has to do with equal opportunity.
If I play a low-tier character against a high-tier character, it's not an equal chance of victory. I can close that gap, effectively balancing the match, through equipment. Granted, my opponent can also use equipment. However, what advantage does this give him? A slight boost to some aspect of the character? Nothing is game breaking with the equips and if you spent some time playing around with them you would know that.

>It's impossible to realistically think everyone will have all of the pieces
That's absolutely true, but does every Pokemon player have all 600+ Pokemon? The answer is, obviously, no. And what player honestly gets every single equitable item in the game? Very few. It would also give players an incentive to play the game more than just their main with no items on FD with 3 stocks at 8 minutes over and over and over again. What was that joke again? No items, Fox only, Final Destination? The joke is accurate, and that's disgusting.

>You tell me of a specific method...
While I'm sure there's some way to abuse the RNG of the game, I won't lie; there's probably no way to guarantee getting the equipment piece that you want. But what is so wrong with working with the tools that you're given? Why stop a player from building the character the way that they want?

>MAYBE it would make sense to have a place in a tourney
A good Smash player SHOULD not only be able to deal with these slight variations in their opponents, because honestly the character changes more from person-to-person than it possibly can from equipment piece to equipment piece, but also be capable of playing the game outside of strictly the competitive game just to enjoy it and unlock whatever the game throws at them while doing so. Is dealing with variations in playstyles and equipment pieces not also an aspect of measuring skill?

>You must support items
The absolute random generation of items makes them too unpredictable to allow in the game. The smash ball, on the other hand, should be perfectly acceptable and I see no reason why not to allow it in competitive play. Saying "Well, it's an item, and we've banned all other items, so we should ban it too" is bordering on logical fallacy.

>And all stages
I support all stages with a few exceptions. But lowering it down to 2-4 acceptable stages that people just pick between over and over again not only makes the game less enjoyable for everyone involved, it also allows the players to stagnate. Any stage which has an absolutely random mechanic (such as the random effects in the Wario level) should be banned. Any stage which has a few small but not game-breaking mechanics, such as that pretty little pink cloud Earthbound stage, should be allowed.

You seem to think that the only measure of skill is playing on FD between two players over and over. There is skill in avoiding stage obstacles and using them to your advantage as well, and you would do well to open your mind.

I like equipment and I have a few loadouts that I enjoy on a few characters. Though my preferred playstyle would probably destroy the enjoyment of Smash 4 for a lot of people. I like to play Little Mac with all +atk equipment.
I wear three Super Brawn Badges and have +113 Attack and -67 Defense.

My multi-hit jab combo does 31% damage. That is really crazy safe, huge damage. My KO Punch can now also KO medium weight characters as low as 10%. My down tilt does 13% damage with this build. So ideally I can land a KO, wait out my opponent's invulnerability, and then down-tilt combo into the KO Punch. 0 to death in two hits.

You might think I won't have the KO Punch that often, but I'll actually be getting it faster than normal. The guage is built based on damage dealt and damage received. My attacks are dealing x2 damage and I'm taking an extra x1.5 damage so I indeed get the KO Punch much faster than normal.

You might think of my reduced defense as a trade off for my insane power, but really it comes with some strong benefits. First off Little Mac has super armor so he can take hits without flinching at all. -Def does not effect Little Mac as much as it does other characters.
More importantly it becomes a lot harder to combo Little Mac. Sheik and Ness can both combo Little Mac off of the stage when he's at low percents, but thanks to the minus defense Little Mac takes increased damage and knock back and so the same combos that would take him off the stage under 20% no longer work.

If I'm against anyone who has increased defense to try and counter my attack they take a hit to speed. Essentially I'll be able to get in and space all of my attacks exactly how I want. I think a better counter would be someone also going all attack. But that'll basically make the game two-his per stock.

I think equipment is really fun and will be using it at a tournament next week, but I definitely do not think it should take the main stage. It changes the way the game is played drastically. It's not really what I would want to see at EVO.

 

[Attila_]

You won't be using it a tournament next week because that tournament will have equipment banned

 

[Thor]

I don't like how this community somehow has it in their heads (at least some people in the community) that extremely small boons to a character and slight variability in the kind of, say, Pikachu that you play against suddenly means that the worse player will win.
You wouldn't see this in Pokemon for a second. I might be playing against a Pokemon whose best stat is special defense, so I use a physical attack against it, only to learn that they've boosted physical defense. The best players will be able to work around any kind of surprise. Being good at smash means more than just memorizing how a certain character usually is affected by your attacks.
Fact is, it's part of the game. Deal with it.

With that being said, I support certain things and certain combinations being banned if they prove to be game-breaking. However, outright banning custom moves and equipment is sheer laziness and is absurd. Especially if the opponent is told exactly which custom equips and moves are being used by the player, there is literally NO aspect of "randomness" unless on a piece of equipment which provides an aspect of randomness. Those few individual pieces can be banned, certainly.

Or people could just focus on turning this game into Melee and allow the community to stagnate. It's the choice of the community.

Did you not read my build idea on the previous page? I suggest you do so.

Then you'd have to ban like every special effect, since many special effects can be abused in some way like that, and even regular abilities like just attack up (so unless you want to play OHKO dittos with Ganondorf vs Ganondorf [you can build a Ganondorf that WILL OHKO with any move except MAYBE jab], equipment is a bad idea).

 

[BSP]

I think custom moves should be allowed once every single one is unlocked. It's a daunting task, yes, but I'm sure we'll come up with some way to get them all extremely quickly, or Nintendo might do a patch or something to speed it up.

If Venks' post is accurate, equipment sounds silly and dangerous.

 

[Tylerblake478]

I've been trying to unlock all the custom moves and it is a daunting task. All the equipment would be even more troublesome. From what I've seen these custom aspects do not change the game enough to be worth the effort. I appreciate the little bit of depth they could add, but right now the trade off of trying to regulate this and the small diversity it adds is not worth the trouble.

 

[Doroco]

We can host tournaments without custom moves, the nintendo can have them with, we'll see what looks better/we prefer/ whatever else

 

[B!squick]

Bowser can recover from a Bowser-cide with Flying Fortress (2) and equipment.

gg equipment viability

 

[Captain Norris]

I just hosted a tournament with custom moves allowed, but not equipment. Overall, it was great. I wish our streamer had actually shown up so we could get some footage, but nothing stood out as overpowered. In fact, there were some pretty neat mind games with toon link and big bombs and fire arrows. Those huge explosions make it hard to see.

 

[WabbitSeason]

Yes to custom moves.

No to equipment. The sheer grind you have to go through to get equipment is absurd. There's no real reason to pursue using equipment simply because custom moves are good enough and that it takes hundreds of hours to get a big collection.

 

[Comorant]

Lets put aside how BS the RNG element of "Well this +55/-38 Legendary Sword is cool, but its not as good as the -65/-30 Legendary Sword" on Equipment is for a moment and look at one of the major dealbreakers behind it being part of the competitive scene.

The Perks. Seriously some of these Perks are insane and generally not going to make for fun matches. Look at some of them.

Safe Respawner: Gives you 7 Seconds of Invulnerability when Respawning.

Auto-Healer: Heal 2% Each second

Shield Reflector: Reflect some damage at your opponent.

Healing Shield: Recover Health when successfully blocking.

The potential for campy and stall centric builds is going to result in some massively long matches.

 

[JFoldum]

I have made custom builds and I have been able to beat them with my main default there is nothing bad about equipment and not using it is a disrepect to the creator of the game he gives us something new and we just toss it Without even trying it out sad.

 

[CoeusFreeze]

I feel I should throw my hat into the ring, given the nature of this argument.

Custom movesets and stats have been attempted in other fighting games (most notably Street Fighter EX 3's custom characters and Street Fighter X Tekken's gem system), and the effects on the tournament scene have been disastrous. It is borderline impossible to test for all of the game-breaking possibilities that could result from such measures, and Sakurai himself has stated that many of the custom moves had no balancing checks implemented. The same principle applies to equipment. A durable or defensive character who has a large speed investment could utterly shatter the balance of the cast in the right hands.

Where everything available from the beginning, I might be okay with this, but having the items be unlocked at random with no way to obtain specific badges or moves (at least let us buy some in exchange for coins or something) means that developing your character into how you want them becomes a crapshoot. Add in the hassle of having every contestant taking time to customize their character between bouts and one should realize how impractical this system would be in official matches.

A system rather similar to the one you are discussing has ultimately ruined great fighters in the past, and for fear of history repeating itself I advise against utilizing the character customizations in competitive play. There would be too much hassle involved in implementing it.

 

[Venks]

You won't be using it a tournament next week because that tournament will have equipment banned

Ah I meant the more casual friendly tournament at Swanston Street on Friday. They want to try out equipment.

As for the Couch Warriors tournament have the rules been finalized yet? If so where can I find them?
Also what about custom moves? I asked on the FB page and someone said they wouldn't be in, but if both players agreed then it was fine?
I just want to know if I should be practicing my custom moves or not.

 

[Gerpington]

I have made custom builds and I have been able to beat them with my main default there is nothing bad about equipment and not using it is a disrepect to the creator of the game he gives us something new and we just toss it Without even trying it out sad.

*stares at the stage list for brawl and melee tournaments*

Your arguement is invalid, or would you rather all matches be held on Hyrule temple/wario ware?

 

[JFoldum]

Why would all matches have to be there we use some stages and not others Why can't we use some equipment and not others. Characters could benefit from using equipment and No one wants to even try it That's stupid this isn't street fighter this is smash bros a whole different fighting system a whole different game and we are able to have a whole new way to play. I am going to take advantage of what we were given and try to spread customs around its no reason it shouldnt even be tried out

 

[Kinslayer]

Custom moves would be absurd in tournament because no one would beable to adaquately prepare for character match ups because no one would be aware of what anyone else was running.

Foldum, yes people would be better with items, but again no one would be able to prepare for everyone's item setups. You wouldn't know what you were fighting until you get into a match and that would be an issue. Also, some characters would be absolutely absurd with items because they would mitigate their main weaknesses.

 

[Gerpington]

Why would all matches have to be there we use some stages and not others Why can't we use some equipment and not others. Characters could benefit from using equipment and No one wants to even try it That's stupid this isn't street fighter this is smash bros a whole different fighting system a whole different game and we are able to have a whole new way to play. I am going to take advantage of what we were given and try to spread customs around its no reason it shouldnt even be tried out

Custom moves aren't really in question anymore. Most people like them.

But the equipment isn't balanced and forcing it into tournaments will just make them way too long or over in 10 seconds. We don't want either of these things to happen. Maybe side events or what not can use them but I do not see them as a worthy addition to big tournaments and I'm sure most TOs agree.

I'd like to point out a majority of people for equipment have only been here a month or two.

Just pointing that out.

 

[JFoldum]

what how do you sound we have the internet all we have to do is make people post what build they will be using before the tournament. And if you cant deal with custom equipment you cant be too good at vanilla no matter what you have on a match should never end in 10 seconds.

 

[Gerpington]

what how do you sound we have the internet all we have to do is make people post what build they will be using before the tournament

Most smash tournaments are in person...and for money.

 

[Kinslayer]

Custom moves aren't really in question anymore. Most people like them.

But the equipment isn't balanced and forcing it into tournaments will just make them way too long or over in 10 seconds. We don't want either of these things to happen. Maybe side events or what not can use them but I do not see them as a worthy addition to big tournaments and I'm sure most TOs agree.

Doesn't matter what most people like, it's what benefits the game most and what is most productive to creating a competitive environment. Just because individuals like it doesn't mean it is suitable for tournament play.

 

[Gerpington]

Doesn't matter what most people like, it's what benefits the game most and what is most productive to creating a competitive environment. Just because individuals like it doesn't mean it is suitable for tournament play.

And what I'm saying is most experienced players don't think it will be.

 

[JFoldum]

Most smash tournaments are in person...and for money.

So you can't hop on the net for a few minutes see what builds people have and then go to a tournament ok. And if the tournament is for money don't use custom equipment I feel like that takes away so much creativity and deeper feel to the game but whatever

 

[Kinslayer]

what how do you sound we have the internet all we have to do is make people post what build they will be using before the tournament. And if you cant deal with custom equipment you cant be too good at vanilla no matter what you have on a match should never end in 10 seconds.

Incorrect a lot of matches can end really fast if Mac for example gets even more power and can accelerate the rate ko punch kills at.

Also, most tournaments are in person which are the ones I assume wen re discussing. So posting build on the net doesn't help. Also even if you do post builds how will you train against those builds? By trying to have someone make the exact same build that's cool and all but what if that person or the group you're searching in DONT have the items to make that build or can't play properly with that build? You can't get sufficent experience that way.

 

[Kinslayer]

So you can't hop on the net for a few minutes see what builds people have and then go to a tournament ok. And if the tournament is for money don't use custom equipment I feel like that takes away so much creativity and deeper feel to the game but whatever

Same thing with SFxT tournaments and gems. Terrible system to enhance characters with external stat boost. Only difference is these boost don't expire and don't have activation requirements so they are even more insane. Let's not forget that altering characters will also alter match ups drastically. So you want someones to relarn their character before every event they attempt to play in just so you can use items in tourney play?

 

[JFoldum]

Why try to train against the build you supposed to train to counter the build if Mac had a build that made him that strong of course his defense is suffering so count with speed and defense it's not hard

 

[Kinslayer]

Why try to train against the build you supposed to train to counter the build if Mac had a build that made him that strong of course his defense is suffering so count with speed and defense it's not hard

That doesn't counter.... Mac has enough SPEED AND ARMOR to somewhat mirage the lowering of his defense.

Also if you're running speed and def your sttack suffers which mitigates some of the def lowering Mac had in the first place

 

[JFoldum]

Ok you make a Mac build like that and play me with it.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I read... most... of this thread. Forgive me if someone basically said this already.

We are at an interesting junction as a smash community. All fighters in all smash games have been presented "as is". Even players who do not own the game/console/controller can visit a friend and start learning how to play/compete. All knowledge about controlling characters and fighting against characters was 100% transferable. It was all useful knowledge.

Suddenly, we are able to modify our characters. This breaks that universal compatibility I just described. Characters control differently based on configuration, and fighting those characters will be substantially more complex due to all these unknown factors. Going beyond all the fighting of whether this is balanced/fair/awesome/whatever... is it worth it? Is this what we want in competition? In a 3DS tournament, everyone has their own copy of Sm4sh. They all have their own stuff setup ahead of time. Does this mean 3DS tournaments would be run differently than Wii U tournaments? In traditional smash events, I just carry my controller from console to console.

I echo many in this thread that custom moves are fine. For every special move that can be swapped out, there is both an increase and decrease in complexity. Yes, the matchups are more complicated, but once a special move is exposed, it confirms that the alternatives will never be used that match. I think this is a reasonable degree of new features that everyone can have unlocked before an event.

Equipment, though? Why are people entertaining this idea? Even if it is determined that they are completely balanced, easy to farm, etc. the spike in complexity and setup for people entering the scene is obscene. I can no longer tell newb to "pick Lucina and abuse this approach". I have to tell the newb to "farm for gear of at least this caliber". I really don't want the community to head that direction. Vanilla fighters should be viable. A player who has zero custom moves unlocked still has a fighting chance; a player who has no equipment unlocked will be obliterated.

Coming back to Wii U (assuming it has the same custom moves + equipment aspect), am I even allowed to bring my Wii U if I don't have all the custom moves unlocked? What if I have only most of them unlocked? Won't that screw with players who depend on certain configurations being available? Coming back to 3DS, is it reasonable that the prereq to competition is that the players unlock that much stuff? The steps to unlock all characters/stages have always been fairly light. Playing Classic over and over just to farm this stuff is a whole new level of stupid, IMHO.

 

[B!squick]

I think the custom moves and whatnot are exclusive to the 3DS, BuzzSaw.

Bottom line, no one is going to host equipment tournaments and too few people would even play in them. Though I'm more than happy to take your money with Bowser-cides Klaw Freebies.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think the custom moves and whatnot are exclusive to the 3DS, BuzzSaw.

Bottom line, no one is going to host equipment tournaments and too few people would even play in them. Though I'm more than happy to take your money with Bowser-cides Klaw Freebies.

Custom moves are in the WiiU version; this is where they were originally revealed, and the guide to them on the official site is WiiU screenshots.

What remains to be seen is how easily the 3DS unlocks can transfer to the WiiU. It has been strongly implied that they do, but specifics remains to be seen.

 

[platomaker]

My two cents? Wait until there's a tier list before divulging any sort of rule sets for equipment. As of now, they shouldn't be allowed and custom characters should fight without crazy modifications- since they aren't standardized as custom moves are. The argument for custom moves are similar to pokemon- you COULD have any combination of moves but are limited to only FOUR. Chances are you already know what they will be, per character, by the time this game hits three years old.

If you MUST have a tourney with equipment, then you can make it a specialized tournament similar to how some brawl tournaments only allowed mid-tier characters. Personally, if it really does come to that then I think by referring to the future tier list you could plot out what characters could use and what would definitely be banned from use. (I.E. no improved jumping for little mac, because screw that guy).

p.s. that last bit was a joke of sorts.

 

[B!squick]

Oh. Well what about equipment on the WiiU?

And what does a tier list have to do with rule sets? O.o

 

[Gerpington]

Oh. Well what about equipment on the WiiU?

And what does a tier list have to do with rule sets? O.o

If you are not aware of the correlation between the two then why are you in this thread?