Project Proposal: We can make custom moves fast, easy, and legal

Amazing Ampharos

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#1
So, custom moves are a big problem we have to figure out awfully quickly. I've been talking to people and playing a whole lot these past few days, and here's basically what I'm seeing. Most people believe that custom moves are a promising system in terms of the gameplay, but the big problem is logistics. Very few have 3dses with everything unlocked, and most people have no real intention of doing the many hours of grinding to unlock Wii Us fully, especially TOs who own a lot of set-ups, and there's a big worry that solutions to this situation will just take too much precious tournament time to be viable as everyone has to go through the long process of setting up custom moves on a per character basis. Many players seem to believe that nationals won't solve these problems and will just ban custom moves and thus don't want to deal with customs on even a local level since they won't be legal at nationals. I'm here with the solution to the problems so they can be legal, but we as a community will have to do a bit of work getting it together.

@DeLux and I did some testing on the time tonight. Via stopwatch it took me 40 seconds to transfer custom moves for a character from a 3ds and only 20 seconds to build a new moveset from scratch with stuff already unlocked, and no, my menuing wasn't perfect or even close so this is the real time it would take for ordinary players. These are both fast and reasonable numbers, but we might be apprehensive about attaching this to every last set in a tournament and more critically we would need a fully unlocked 3ds for every set-up which would be very difficult to arrange. However, the Wii U has 10 slots for movesets, and these are stored once imported from 3ds indefinitely. I think the solution is in pre-loading these slots.

I propose we set aside the first 6/10 sets for the known most popular builds. It's just the nature of the balance of the game that a relatively small handful of custom builds will be used by the overwhelming majority of players. I propose a community project by which we decide on what the six best non-default builds for every character are on the basis of what would be popular to actually pick in a tournament. We can have each character board mull this over and decide on their character's top eight. Make all of these on a 3ds and before the tournament import them to every Wii U that will be used. Once these are in place which has to be done once ever, any player will be able to pick those common builds for a time cost of approximately 2 seconds (you just scroll down a list and click on which one you want). Slots 7 and 8 are left to 2222 and 3333 so moves can be explored more easily by all players in this early metagame. The last two slots are left free for players to import their own builds from their personal 3ds units if they want to be one of the odd ducks that doesn't prefer one of the mainstream builds though I would stress this will represent less than 1% of players. That 40 second loss to import is comparable to the time it takes to set up custom controls and a nametag, and it won't be one we eat very often.

Eventually this game will be hacked and we'll be able to unlock all custom moves automatically. I doubt it will even be that long; Dantarion is already rendering smash 3ds's files human readable, and Wii U hacking has progressed further than some might imagine (look up Mr. Bean's Mario Kart 8 hacks). When this happens, we'll be able to easily unlock all customs on all Wii Us and those odd ducks who don't like mainstream builds will take 20 seconds instead of 40 and will no longer be required to own a 3ds. That will be an improvement and it is inevitable that it will occur in the future so I believe we can not worry too much about the short term requirement for odd ducks who like strange builds to own (or borrow) a 3ds. That one facet of this is merely a temporary problem, and I don't think it's a terribly big one in the first place.

I believe this represents a complete solution to the logistical problems both in terms of move unlocking and in terms of set-up and selection time, and it scales indefinitely even to national scale events with ease (actually substantially faster to load up on each set-up than unlocking the characters and stages). We don't have a backroom so I'm not sure what powers that be we have around to help organize this project, but we should be able to get it done in a pretty big hurry and get things set up to actually use customs on a practical level without slowing down tournaments in any kind of way at all. If anyone sees any possible improvements to this proposal or has serious concerns, let's sort that out, and then once that's done, let's get cracking.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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#3
If you play a few hours each day and somewhat more on weekends but do have a life otherwise, it takes about two weeks of work to unlock a 3ds; I know this because that's how long it took me. My proposal is to do this once ever and use that one 3ds to set up every last Wii U from it. Importing a full character's 8 sets to Wii U takes 40 seconds if you only do one character, but it's probably only about 15 seconds for each additional character since the same 3ds will already be linked to the Wii U so fully setting up a Wii U from a 3ds should take 12-13 minutes of furious menu work and then it's done forever so even APEX would be able to get every set-up custom ready in a few hours.

If you want to actually unlock the moves on the Wii U itself such that custom moves can be used freely with no 3ds transfer, I do not believe the optimum farming algorithms have been worked out. I have about 120 custom moves on my personal Wii U from a few days of single player out of 376 to unlock, but since you can get duplicates, it's a really bottom heavy process to get those last few. I'd say it's probably going to be roughly comparable to the 3ds in the end, about 20 hours of work (VERY rough estimate, we can science this up a lot more if it's going to be a big point so please take it as a rough guess). I won't lie; it's not a fun grind, but it's pretty doable for one set-up. One of my driving motivations here is to cater to larger scale TOs who have many set-ups and probably not equally many volunteers to each take one set-up and get to grinding.
 

DunnoBro

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#5
A TO could also provide powersave stations for people to unlock all their customs on their 3ds to transfer to Wii u. Would need a pc/laptop, a $25 powersave, and about a minute to apply the code.

I'm also fairly certain most characters will only have a few competitive sets anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard to keep those popular sets there and things streamlined for the most part. We should probably consult character boards about those sets.

And while you're at it, people should also standardize the miis for heights and such.
 
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ChronoPenguin

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#6
You'd need a custom meta to really develop then.
I'm going to use Shulk as an example.
All 3 Neutral specials are currently considerable.
Im going to assume that Power Vision is our current desired Down special for now.

So X-X-X-3.
Back Slash and Back Slash charge are bother considerable.
Well now it's
1-1-X-3
2-1-X-3
3-1-X-3
1-3-X-3
2-3-X-3
3-3-X-3

Im currently at 6 slots.
Mighty Slash is unexplored for the most part so you'll have a split between the benefits of Air Slash vs Advancing Air Slash.
We've gone over 10 slots at this point.

Wii Fit trainer has similar levels of variability.

Mii Gunner has quite a bit of usable options, ignoring the size issue on top of that.

I dont think setting aside the most pop builds works, unless we're talking a small subset of characters this early on whom we are certain wont use X-set.
 
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#7
Im going to repost what I posted on facebook.

Kay, here I am making another argument to make Mii Fighters Legal.

What I suggest to change towards the rules.

-Ban All Unlockable custom moves
-Mii Fighters must be Guest Miis

What this essentially does is make Mii Fighters and Palutena's Customs legal, since they are available from the start and can be accessed in the custom menu screen, they can both be made in less than 1 minute on ANYONE'S WII U. ANYONES, they dont even have a mii.

The argument against this would be "Well, thats not fair if they have their customs and nobody else does!"

This is my counter argument.

As of right now the reason why Customs are banned is because they're impossible to have on all Wii us at a tournament. So just ban the unlockable ones. Palutena and Mii Fighters have unique customs that are just flat out different moves, and they're there from the start and take no time at all to make on the spot on ANYONE'S Wii U. That is why they should be allowed.

So with that out of the way, why should they still be banned? You're killing an entire character because the rest of the customs are hard to unlock. The worst part about it is that Mii Brawler could be viable too and fix the Diddy Kong problem.

If you guys still have a problem with the Piston Punch, just ban that. Ban that until its proven to not be broken. Just allow Mii Fighters and Palutena to use the rest of their customs. That would be nice. Thanks
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#9
You'd need a custom meta to really develop then.
I'm going to use Shulk as an example.
All 3 Neutral specials are currently considerable.
Im going to assume that Power Vision is our current desired Down special for now.

So X-X-X-3.
Back Slash and Back Slash charge are bother considerable.
Well now it's
1-1-X-3
2-1-X-3
3-1-X-3
1-3-X-3
2-3-X-3
3-3-X-3

Im currently at 6 slots.
Mighty Slash is unexplored for the most part so you'll have a split between the benefits of Air Slash vs Advancing Air Slash.
We've gone over 10 slots at this point.

Wii Fit trainer has similar levels of variability.

Mii Gunner has quite a bit of usable options, ignoring the size issue on top of that.

I dont think setting aside the most pop builds works, unless we're talking a small subset of characters this early on whom we are certain wont use X-set.
Mii Gunner doesn't matter because you can have more than 10 sets for Mii Fighters. 100% of Mii builds of any theoretical use would be pre-made with no numeric limit.

As per the others, I know full well there are more than 8 hypothetically usable builds for some characters (though this is distinctly NOT true for many others!). I do not believe, however, that the 9th best overall combination and worse are likely to be chosen very often in practice even on a diverse character like Shulk. It would be on the Shulk board to examine Shulk's match-ups and figure the eight most commonly useful combinations that would allow Shulk players as often as possible to just pick one of those eight and thus be able to pick their custom moves very quickly. Shulk players who wanted to use the others would have to bring a 3ds with the alternate builds ready, and in the situations they want to use these non-top 8 builds, they could take the 40 seconds to import into the two slots left free explicitly for that kind of situation. This is a whole lot more efficient than having everyone build from scratch or import all of the time, and it's a lot better than just banning the customization system because of usability issues. In the event the metagame develops and it is decided the current top 8 builds are out of date, it is not exactly hard to replace them with more current builds that represent the current metagame.
 
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#12
Not gonna lie though, unlocking content on the WiiU version is way way way easier than on the 3DS.
...er, how? Classic mode takes longer to complete and has fewer rounds, Smash tour lasts more than twice the lenght of any smash run with disproprotional rewards, Special Orders are unreliable and cRazy's is dangerous, the 8 custom moves form challenges ought to be harder to get in the u version too.

i am just not seeing it.
 

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#13
All Star on hard gives 8 custom bags, which is nice.

Edit:
I'm about halfway done with Classic and All Star, and I'm at 241/376. (64%) At this rate I expect to hit around ~310 by the time I finish.
 
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#14
All Star on hard gives 8 custom bags, which is nice.

Edit:
I'm about halfway done with Classic and All Star, and I'm at 241/376. (64%) At this rate I expect to hit around ~310 by the time I finish.

Yeah. All Star on Hard is pretty legit if you're using Bowser. Such a tank and one/two FSmashes will net you the kills every time.
 

Red Ryu

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#15
...er, how? Classic mode takes longer to complete and has fewer rounds, Smash tour lasts more than twice the lenght of any smash run with disproprotional rewards, Special Orders are unreliable and cRazy's is dangerous, the 8 custom moves form challenges ought to be harder to get in the u version too.

i am just not seeing it.
Crazy Orders are actually pretty reliable and easy to unlock stuff. Need coins and tickets though is the is the issue.

Still Classic mode, while taking long at higher difficulty, it still turning out a lot more faster this time around.

Where the 8 customs are on the list? idk, I'm not looking into that til I figure out how to consistently win on 9.0 difficulty which with Master Fortress this is by far the hardest in the series for an of game boss.
 

Thinkaman

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#16
I beat 9.0 with Charizard first try! </brag>

I think Ganon is easiest though. Falcon a close second.

Been doing most on 7.5 though, less stressful and no real chance of losing.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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#19
...er, how? Classic mode takes longer to complete and has fewer rounds, Smash tour lasts more than twice the lenght of any smash run with disproprotional rewards, Special Orders are unreliable and cRazy's is dangerous, the 8 custom moves form challenges ought to be harder to get in the u version too.

i am just not seeing it.
play trophy rush

pick palutena

spam heavenly light

enjoy your free custom moves
 

Pazzo.

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#20
Alright, if we're going to go ahead with this, we need individual moveset discussions on each character thread.

@ Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos - If you want any help on organizing movesets or discussions, let me know.
 

Untouch

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#21
Why doesn't someone just create a savefile with each possible moveset combination possible and then TOs can download it?

Would that work?
 

Thinkaman

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#24
Afraid not. Wii U saves don't work like Wii saves :(
Brawl saves couldn't transfer either.

Imo for unlocking the ideal endgoal is hacking the WiiU save file format:
  1. Backup the save file to a USB drive
  2. On a PC, run a one-button program that decrypts the file, edits to unlock everything, and re-encrypt/saves
  3. Move edited backup back to system
Here's the kicker: People would still have to make profiles. While we should still one day do this to easily allow alternative sets to be made, a 3DS transfer solution is actually faster since it pre-makes every popular set.
 

chaosmasterro

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#29
Then they can make it on that WiiU.

If it's not unlocked, they can transfer it from a 3DS. It doesn't have to be their 3DS, any in the venue works.
Great! I'm 100% behind this. I really want to see customs in competitive smash. I was I playing with some friends who recently wanted to get competitive in smash who thought having customs in competitive smash would make the scene a lot more enjoyable.
 

DunnoBro

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#30
Brawl saves couldn't transfer either.

Imo for unlocking the ideal endgoal is hacking the WiiU save file format:
  1. Backup the save file to a USB drive
  2. On a PC, run a one-button program that decrypts the file, edits to unlock everything, and re-encrypt/saves
  3. Move edited backup back to system
Here's the kicker: People would still have to make profiles. While we should still one day do this to easily allow alternative sets to be made, a 3DS transfer solution is actually faster since it pre-makes every popular set.
When brawl came out there was homebrew that easily let you do it iirc.

But yea, I think the 3ds route is best for now. As a special boost on this idea, even if most people haven't unlocked all customs on their own 3ds, with the 8 sets if they find their set is missing, it's very feasible for at least their set to exist and be able to transfer from their 3ds.

Also, for md/va, xanadu, etc, at least, I'll start bringing my laptop and powersave to unlock customs on all their 3ds so they can set up other wii us easily. I think TOs should offer entry fee waving or maybe byes(if smallish tourney) in exchange for arriving early and setting Wii Us up with all the customs. Just one fully unlocked 3ds and dedicated customs player can do a lot for an area I think.

Also, a thought. How do we deal with counter customs? Because while generally there are probably 1-2 best sets for characters to fight against the entire cast as a whole, there's also customs that specifically help in certain matchups too. How do we address this? Ideally counter customs should be allowed but then the 8 slots become tighter I think. Though still, most characters are still at 1-2 optimum game 1 sets and then maybe 1-2 more counter sets. (Which could be someone else's optimum)

Ex. Rosalina's gpull is amazing generally but worthless against falcon, metaknight, etc. So she'd probably use something else, just cause.

On the topic of custom sets, I think we've theorized enough and we should all get the ball rolling ourselves with characters we understand. I'll start threads in Duck hunt and sonic on the topic of the 8 custom sets to include. I think the template should go something like...

Thread Title: Submit your entry for the Top 8 Custom Sets of [Insert Character Here]
As part of an ongoing project to push customs into the competitive scene, we're seeking the 8 most popular/competitive sets of each character to apply to every tournament wii u to streamline the custom character selection.

Please provide a set, an explanation of it, and any other comments you'd like to include.
Note: Sets dedicated to countering certain characters are more than welcome. Especially for characters who function differently, or poorly against certain characters who otherwise perform well under default specials. Gimmicky, glitchy, or combinations just otherwise worth mentioning are welcome as well.

If there are more than 8 sets posted, we will have a poll to determine their popularity. This is more about time constraints and not forcing too many people to upload their own customs, not just competitive viability.

Please use this template for submitting sets at the top of your post:
1111 (A default set)
1231 (Custom set with default neutral special, and down special)

It's an interesting enough discussion and debate topic on it's own I think, without it being about whose set is actually best. So hopefully they'll be rather popular, I'd recommend uploading your personal favorite customs/sets to get the discussion going.
 
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Thinkaman

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#32
or maybe byes(if smallish tourney)
Whoa, hold the phone chief. What the hell???


Anyway, 8 slots is more than enough for the vast majority of the cast.

Many characters will only run 1-2 sets in 1v1. A few will run around 4.

Some characters will have ~2-4 sets plus a "vs Rosalina" combination. Little Mac is possible too, but I can't think of any cases.
 

DunnoBro

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#33
I'm talkin like locals when people are still mostly having fun with customs and not super serious yet. Probably still too much though, yea. Guess it's out now I can't TO for ****.

But yea, 8 slots should be enough for the vast vast majority. Especially once things solidify and people gravitate towards more successful/efficient sets if there's any doubt which customs go best together.
 

chaosmasterro

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#34
Also, a thought. How do we deal with counter customs? Because while generally there are probably 1-2 best sets for characters to fight against the entire cast as a whole, there's also customs that specifically help in certain matchups too. How do we address this? Ideally counter customs should be allowed but then the 8 slots become tighter I think. Though still, most characters are still at 1-2 optimum game 1 sets and then maybe 1-2 more counter sets. (Which could be someone else's optimum)

Ex. Rosalina's gpull is amazing generally but worthless against falcon, metaknight, etc. So she'd probably use something else, just cause.

That's tricky because I want to say a player doesn't need to announce their custom moveset in terms of counterpicking and will take some time to explain it to someone and choose a character to counter pick that set.
However I feel certain people may feel cheated or complain because they didn't know what the other person was bringing.
 
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#35
I'm fairly new to competitive smash, but even I can realize that customs will help diversify the game, so I'm fine with getting them in any way possible. This seems to be the best idea I've seen. I'd like to suggest that if the Wii U version is the faster grind at getting these customs, the 3ds could simple be a way to transfer from 1 Wii U to another. Basically, if it takes longer to get all customs on the 3ds, just unlock it all on the Wii U, and transfer the 8 meta customs with the 3ds. No need to unlock anything on the 3ds.

What to do with counter picks and characters with over 8 good combinations can probably be discussed on character threads after we start talking specifics. Who knows, maybe it won't be much of a problem?
 

DunnoBro

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#36
That's tricky because I want to say a player doesn't need to announce their custom moveset in terms of counterpicking and will take some time to explain it to someone and choose a character to counter pick that set.
However I feel certain people may feel cheated or complain because they didn't know what the other person was bringing.
That's a good point.

Personally, I think custom counters should have the effect of counterpicks though. Where they know right away what they do or don't have to deal with. I think players should have a right to know exactly what set their opponent is using, even during counters.

The main stigma against customs beyond logistics is the surprise factor and difficulty training for custom matchups. Custom countermatchups will be even more awkward, and I think some customs might be counters for those easy kills/hard counters and not just "I can use this and can't use what i had before"

What about you guys?
 
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popsofctown

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#38
But how do you know what custom setups are the most tourney viable without using the customs in tourney in the first place?

Which came first, tha chicken or the egg or the egg or the chicken or the chicken or the egg.......


A preliminary, crappy, inaccurate, imperfect list needs to come out immediately to get this adopted so it can improve from there. A council of players need to pump out all 400 recommendations as a launch list.

There should be no wait for it, no maybe six months from now when people are actually active on the Olimar boards, no bada dada nada. It needs to be done yesterday or the customless comfort snowball will be unstoppable.


edit: really, really though, don't wait on the character boards. Characters with poor customization can just not give feedback to improve the odds of a customless landscape. Even if it's not a deliberate goal, that dynamic is kind of there.
 
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Flamecircle

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#39
But how do you know what custom setups are the most tourney viable without using the customs in tourney in the first place?

Which came first, tha chicken or the egg or the egg or the chicken or the chicken or the egg.......


A preliminary, crappy, inaccurate, imperfect list needs to come out immediately to get this adopted so it can improve from there. A council of players need to pump out all 400 recommendations as a launch list.

There should be no wait for it, no maybe six months from now when people are actually active on the Olimar boards, no bada dada nada. It needs to be done yesterday or the customless comfort snowball will be unstoppable.


edit: really, really though, don't wait on the character boards. Characters with poor customization can just not give feedback to improve the odds of a customless landscape. Even if it's not a deliberate goal, that dynamic is kind of there.
This is a pretty good point. Given how popular the "suggest custom moves for each character" thread was for a while, maybe a similar "suggest custom sets for tourneys" thread could work out too? Then after that sets can be pruned and added based on usage.
 
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#40
But how do you know what custom setups are the most tourney viable without using the customs in tourney in the first place?

Which came first, tha chicken or the egg or the egg or the chicken or the chicken or the egg.......


A preliminary, crappy, inaccurate, imperfect list needs to come out immediately to get this adopted so it can improve from there. A council of players need to pump out all 400 recommendations as a launch list.

There should be no wait for it, no maybe six months from now when people are actually active on the Olimar boards, no bada dada nada. It needs to be done yesterday or the customless comfort snowball will be unstoppable.


edit: really, really though, don't wait on the character boards. Characters with poor customization can just not give feedback to improve the odds of a customless landscape. Even if it's not a deliberate goal, that dynamic is kind of there.
I have to agree that this needs to be created soon. Customs are being banned frequently, and the more we wait the more tourneys will ban them.
 
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