Project Proposal: We can make custom moves fast, easy, and legal

[chaosmasterro]

To get people interested in allowing customs for tournaments, people should reward those who took the time out to unlock them with things like a no entry fee. This will promote people in using customs and an incentive to unlock them faster.

 

[DunnoBro]

I dunno if TOs can keep doin that tho lol

We should definitely start pushing for sides at the very least though. If we have default vs customs, the more worthy meta will survive.

 

[popsofctown]

This is a pretty good point. Given how popular the "suggest custom moves for each character" thread was for a while, maybe a similar "suggest custom sets for tourneys" thread could work out too? Then after that sets can be pruned and added based on usage.

Sounds like a ****ty thread some tool came up with.


Unfortunately the more the movement is perceived as populist in nature, the more likely it is to be resisted. For mostly this reason and also to keep the signal to noise ratio better on the selection process, I think a backroom type council ought to create it. Their recommendations can change later. A decent criteria for changing the recommendations might be that if someone wins a (minimum_size) tourney with a set they had to bring from DS because it wasn't suggested, then it trumps in over a recommendation that hasn't repped any wins.

 

[_Malal]

To get people interested in allowing customs for tournaments, people should reward those who took the time out to unlock them with things like a no entry fee. This will promote people in using customs and an incentive to unlock them faster.

Double the venue fee waiver, clearly.

Bring your wii with all customs unlocked and we'll pay you!*

* after signing an agreement your wii will be available for use until the end of the tournament regardless of time.


I am actually worried due to the retail value of a WiiU people will be less encouraged to bring their setups to tournaments, I remember Wiis were fairly inexpensive during brawl's heydey. WiiU's + Adapter + Non-piritable game equals... A heavier financial investment.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea, not to mention if they have games installed on their hard drive.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sounds like a ****ty thread some tool came up with.


Unfortunately the more the movement is perceived as populist in nature, the more likely it is to be resisted. For mostly this reason and also to keep the signal to noise ratio better on the selection process, I think a backroom type council ought to create it. Their recommendations can change later. A decent criteria for changing the recommendations might be that if someone wins a (minimum_size) tourney with a set they had to bring from DS because it wasn't suggested, then it trumps in over a recommendation that hasn't repped any wins.

A backroom style council would be useful for organization and to make final calls on what to include in the event of disagreements, but I do think engaging the community for ideas here would be most efficient since honestly it's pretty hard to go through the vast amount of stuff in the game like that and probably about half of the character boards are organized enough to be useful and helpful within a short time span. Engage the community to make it easier to make good decisions and rely on a BRish group to make said decisions in the end; we don't need some sort of populist vs elitist confrontation here since this system stands to benefit everyone and everyone can work together. Said BR style council would also be very efficient to reconvene if its membership began to perceive that the standards needed updating which will probably happen at least once as the metagame evolves.

The bigger question here is how do we even form a BR style council without a BR? I don't know how that's going to happen; I don't really see people getting the ball rolling on my authority as a long term prolific poster on smashboards. We need some kind of an authority structure here; the mechanisms are not very clear right now.

 

[popsofctown]

You're not really disagreeing with me here. Of course such a council would want to gather info from the community at large.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think he's referring to the fact back rooms have a history of making their own decisions and ignoring the community voice at times.

 

[popsofctown]

I think he's referring to the fact back rooms have a history of making their own decisions and ignoring the community voice at times.

Oh. Historically I think that had to do with Melee traditionalism and picking suggest custom movesets can't be very affected by that.

 

[san.]

I do know it was slightly annoying having to fight against a piston punch spamming Mii Brawler when I could only use the defaults on my character in tournament. There's no reason to deny the Mii when they're readily available, but through that logic, the opponent should be able to bring his custom character if he has the means available to him.

For players that:

• Are heavily reliant on customs
• Have no 3DS/setup available to them for customs

I think there should be customs requests for people who meet both of the above requirements. For large tournaments where pools are decided ahead of time, you can match the desired customs with the pool, which will probably take a few minutes each. I don't think this number will be very high and problems are easily resolved. The worst case is that the player doesn't get the customs he wants, which is identical to defaults only.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Oh. Historically I think that had to do with Melee traditionalism and picking suggest custom movesets can't be very affected by that.

"We suggest 1111 as the best custom moveset for all characters."

Complete hyperbole and strawman, yes, but I'd greatly prefer transparency and the ability to have my voice heard.

 

[popsofctown]

"We suggest 1111 as the best custom moveset for all characters."

Complete hyperbole and strawman, yes, but I'd greatly prefer transparency and the ability to have my voice heard.

On the timetable this thing ought to be on there is hardly any time for popular feedback. I'm all for transparency though.

The fact that tournament results can disprove aspects of the list makes it more robust than unpopular BR driven stagelists.

 

[DunnoBro]

I have zero experience against the piston punch and can find little information on the validity or lack thereof in it. Is it something to be prepared to ban?

 

[popsofctown]

you know how as fox against jiggs you die if you DI upthrow wrong?
it's like that. But on jiggs.

 

[san.]

I have zero experience against the piston punch and can find little information on the validity or lack thereof in it. Is it something to be prepared to ban?

Nah, I was just salty I couldn't use my customs.

 

[Cornstalk]

As far as getting unlocks, I just made a post about an almost effort free way to do it with Smash Tour here.

Basically, you can leave smash tour running in the background while you do other things not on the Wii U. Every 20-30 minutes, you get free stuff that sometimes gives customs. The only thing that hangs it up is Home Run contest or Target Blast, which just need you to hit a button on the tablet so you can fail out. That's the extent of the babysitting it needs.


While I haven't tried it yet, Trophy Rush was the fastest and most reliable way to get customs by playing the character you needed the customs for on 3DS. So if this is still true on Wii U, you can do other things around the house while checking on Smash Tour periodically, then use the gold you get from that to fill in the gaps through trophy rush.

I have my smash tour grinding as I'm posting this.

 

[guedes the brawler]

IF tourneys had an Online registration people could request their custom move sets before the torunament even begins. though i dont know how you guys handle toruneys, it's probably a "local IRL registration" so it has it's drawbacks...

 

[cardboardowl]

I'm a nobody but im totally behind this. customs would help this game immensly and these all sound like viable options.

Tbh I feel like most systems will get **** unlocked eventually. I haven't spent much time unlocking, only about 2 hours, but i got a good chunk of that stuff done.

 

[popsofctown]

Inaction could be costly

 

[DunnoBro]

Inaction could be costly

Both costly and unnecessary. In both threads I made (1 2) The general consensus seems to be that the usable sets fall well short of 8 slots. Even considering counters, and gimmick sets.

It might be an issue on some characters, and I'm only speaking anecdotally, not reflecting off this pathetic sample size, but I doubt this will even be as much of an issue as control schemes after people get used to it.

Furthermore, I do believe the custom acquisition system can be automated. Only tested 2 longest length smash tours last night (all I had time for) but I set a gcn controller with a turbo setting on the A button. It completed smash tour, got me customs, and re-entered tour to do it all again.

I left it running while I'm at work today. Will check the results when I get home before going to Xanadu :^)

 

[BrimeZ]

Its absolutely outrageous that custom move sets (no equipment) is not going to allowed at the beginning of Smash U's life span. I personally find it insulting that people want to narrow down the meta game early on in Smash 4's career.

A lot of people spent a lot of time unlocking and learning customs(no of which are broken). Just because [Insert Random top Melee player here] didn't bother to get the 3ds version of smash and/or [Insert Random top Melee player here] didn't bother trying to unlock or try customs and feels he has a lower chance of winning money at a tournament doesn't mean customs should be banned
That's like saying a certain character in Melee should be banned because an Out of State [Insert Random top Melee player here] goes a tournament out of his region and has to play a bunch of mid tier heroes. Or banning characters in PM because [Insert Random top Melee player here] doesn't know the match up. If you iliterate in a Match up, even if its custom moves in Smash 4, its entirely your fault

 

[Makkun]

Why bring Melee into this at all?

Even though I didn't buy the 3DS version and I don't have most of the unlocks, I still think we should try using customs in tournaments before ruling them out. I have barely seen any, so I don't know if any of them are broken or not. I also don't think they should be ruled out just 'cause some people haven't unlocked them yet (how is this even considered unfair? I've known people who hadn't unlocked FD in Melee but they didn't cry about playing on that stage). I think the real issue is finding a good way to do this in a timely manner. I think this thread has proven there are decently quick ways to set up customs, but the real issue is going to be national tournaments. I can see a lot of issues there.

Is it confirmed that save files can be transferred between Wii Us? I don't really even know how mine works. I haven't tried anything like that. It wouldn't be hard to transfer this data to a Wii U being used in tournament.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i started one of these in the
Jr boards.

and ugh, the brazilian scen is made from so many stubborn mules. and to think i was happy this hell-hole had a competitive scene.

i envy you americans so much.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

The thing that the custom moveset movement needs is a strong, and organized collective, and Blimey if I see any of it from anyone. This movement just seems dead as dirt. And in the case of something game changing like custom moves, it has a big uphill battle to face against those who want to casually brush them aside.

And as popsofctown said, the longer custom moves remain unused in the tourney scene, the worse its chances get as people get more used to fighting only the defaults. Time is of the essence.

For starters, why not do some talking with the guys who run Clashtournaments? They seem to be willing to use Customs and they have a following too. There just needs to be a loud and strong collective of people with influence here to lead this thing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ DunnoBro I just made a similar thread on the Rosalina forum, hopefully we can get some stuff going on soon.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Puerto Rico plans to use Apex rules no matter what. I imagine other regions do that too to prepare for Apex. If Apex ends up banning customs and miis, I'm afraid they'll never see the light of day again (except as a side event maybe) in a ton of places...

 

[Nintendrone]

This movement needs to happen right away. I'd be OK with any method to get these accepted, be it by pestering TOs, creating an active support group, or making the people around here form a BR. We need to get busy sooner rather than later.

The danger of forming a BR to be an authority on the matter is that we likely have little control over who gets in, which might lead to an awkward situation where the BR makes rash decisions that it won't back off from to save face.

I'll try to contribute in ways I can, even if it's as simple as me bugging TOs running locals I go to and bringing a transfer setup.

 

[popsofctown]

A BR that creates custom move set recommendations is different from one that makes other kind of recommendations. It really should be less controversial and more about getting something on the ground.

I would nominate someone like Delux to do it and anyone he invited to join him would be fine. Even if he was like super unfair to everyone's input and the list is super skewed. Even with horrible skew it would probably have the #1 optimal list somewhere in the 8 for every character and would be very serviceable.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Personally, I think this project is pretty disjointed and unorganized, but I did my part trying to help here, and here.

I still feel like this idea is not being sold to the right people.

 

[I ReZo I]

But how do you know what custom setups are the most tourney viable without using the customs in tourney in the first place?

Which came first, tha chicken or the egg or the egg or the chicken or the chicken or the egg.......


A preliminary, crappy, inaccurate, imperfect list needs to come out immediately to get this adopted so it can improve from there.

I feel more than Comfortable that the backroomers and the pros can put together a list of tournament viable custom movesets for every character, even if it is only changing 1 move to compensate for what the character falls short at with the default, while some characters may even have all of theirs changed.

The only real issue is getting them motivated/wanting to do it.

Who better to ask than the current top tournament players? Especially if it is for their main character and for counterpicks as well, they know the current meta better than most of us

 

[DeLux]

I feel more than Comfortable that the backroomers and the pros can put together a list of tournament viable custom movesets for every character, even if it is only changing 1 move to compensate for what the character falls short at with the default, while some characters may even have all of theirs changed.

The only real issue is getting them motivated/wanting to do it.

Who better to ask than the current top tournament players? Especially if it is for their main character and for counterpicks as well, they know the current meta better than most of us

The unfortunate aspect is that most of the current "top" players of the game (ie people that were top players from previous games) are arrogantly scrubby in the context that if they lose to some sort of "gimmick", they have almost immediately assumed the tactic is overpowered rather than accepting the loss coming from a lack of knowledge about the game resulting from the disparity of play time in the new game.


I'll post about this the ZSS and Diddy subforums I mod and sticky it. I will be honest, from a hosting perspective, I probably prefer customs off at the moment for logistics reasons. But as a player, if we ban customs because we're scrubby as a community, that's a freaking tragedy. I'm reminded of Henry Ford talking about pushing cars at their inception, the masses screamed that they would rather just have a faster horse. But if you look at the cars today and how advanced they are, the fact is that a horse is still a horse.

I hope the only reason the community isn't ready for customs is because the infrastructure isn't in place yet. But I honestly fear that while the logistics should be the ONLY thing that matters, the scrubby mentality will prevail as a reason to just give up on finding a logistical solution.

TLDR - When Sakurai gives you a car, you get a license and learn to drive.

 

[popsofctown]

Do you have a constructive alternative @ DeLux ?

 

[Bedoop]

The unfortunate aspect is that most of the current "top" players of the game (ie people that were top players from previous games) are arrogantly scrubby in the context that if they lose to some sort of "gimmick", they have almost immediately assumed the tactic is overpowered rather than accepting the loss coming from a lack of knowledge about the game resulting from the disparity of play time in the new game.

*STARES AT MEW2KING*

 

[DeLux]

Do you have a constructive alternative @ DeLux ?

Is praying that someone hacks the **** out of the game for an "unlock everything" code a constructive alternative?

If that happens in the next month, that would easily be our best bet. But even if that happens, this project still has value since it will still help speed up the character build process significantly.

 

[Bedoop]

Is praying that someone hacks the **** out of the game for an "unlock everything" code a constructive alternative?

But that could lead to the Wii U being Brick'd with that newfangled Device that Nintendo implemented. :\

 

[Loki]

I am in favor of them and we´ll be hosting a local tourney this January. I plan on allowing custom moves so in order to properly control them, I plan on using the following format:

1.- Pre-registration
Prior to the tournament, players will be able to confirm their participation to the tournament. During this time, they will also be allowed to ask for a pre-set to be done. This preset will contain their nick, the character(s) and the customs they intend to use. This way I can save in the console before the tourney, saving lots of time beforehand.
2.- Registration
An hour before the tourney, I will be taking last hour registrations. People will also be allowed to come with their 3DS and save their intended-to-be-used customs. This way we avoid having to cut games continuity for the sake of editing characters and more. This will be restrained to the time we have between the event opening (because it will be hosted at an otaku festival) and the tournament starting.
3.- Post-registration
Once the tournament starts, no one will be allowed to edit characters. If they didn´t register a custom set on the allowed times (pre-reg and reg) then they´ll have to use the stock move-set for the rest of the tournament.

Also, a few other rules that I might include are:
a) A max of two (possibly 3?) custom sets per player, distribuited among as many characters. No two sets per character, only two per player. I want people to structure their customs sets wisely to answer weaknesses on their playstiles, not to counter everything.
b) Not taking other people custom sets. This kind of goes hand-in-hand with "a". Allowing people to pick other people made sets kind of nullifies "a". The only moment this rule would be skippable is when two players register the same custom-set for the same character. This is easy to keep track off because I will have in paper everyone´s registered sets.

This is kind of still in the rough, but I am really looking forward to see what kind of results and data this throws in. What do you guys say about this? Would you suggest me something, put or remove a rule?, You think this will work out or not? Im looking forward for opinions on this.

 

[guedes the brawler]

yeah, thi sis going slow. the jr boards so far have given me only a single reply. sorry, guys, i tried...

 

[popsofctown]

I am in favor of them and we´ll be hosting a local tourney this January. I plan on allowing custom moves so in order to properly control them, I plan on using the following format:

1.- Pre-registration
Prior to the tournament, players will be able to confirm their participation to the tournament. During this time, they will also be allowed to ask for a pre-set to be done. This preset will contain their nick, the character(s) and the customs they intend to use. This way I can save in the console before the tourney, saving lots of time beforehand.
2.- Registration
An hour before the tourney, I will be taking last hour registrations. People will also be allowed to come with their 3DS and save their intended-to-be-used customs. This way we avoid having to cut games continuity for the sake of editing characters and more. This will be restrained to the time we have between the event opening (because it will be hosted at an otaku festival) and the tournament starting.
3.- Post-registration
Once the tournament starts, no one will be allowed to edit characters. If they didn´t register a custom set on the allowed times (pre-reg and reg) then they´ll have to use the stock move-set for the rest of the tournament.

Also, a few other rules that I might include are:
a) A max of two (possibly 3?) custom sets per player, distribuited among as many characters. No two sets per character, only two per player. I want people to structure their customs sets wisely to answer weaknesses on their playstiles, not to counter everything.
b) Not taking other people custom sets. This kind of goes hand-in-hand with "a". Allowing people to pick other people made sets kind of nullifies "a". The only moment this rule would be skippable is when two players register the same custom-set for the same character. This is easy to keep track off because I will have in paper everyone´s registered sets.

This is kind of still in the rough, but I am really looking forward to see what kind of results and data this throws in. What do you guys say about this? Would you suggest me something, put or remove a rule?, You think this will work out or not? Im looking forward for opinions on this.

Restricting sets for logistical reasons is fine, but restricting people's ability to use sets because you don't want them to "counter everything" is a poor philosophy.

The character specific boards activity level is garbage. I emphasize again that someone with some kind of nominal amount of authority needs to just generate a crude list as a version 1.0 and refine from there.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Restricting sets for logistical reasons is fine, but restricting people's ability to use sets because you don't want them to "counter everything" is a poor philosophy.

The character specific boards activity level is garbage. I emphasize again that someone with some kind of nominal amount of authority needs to just generate a crude list as a version 1.0 and refine from there.

I've just been keeping a list of sets as they're mentioned in the OP for the thread I made and we're already at 9 so I'll have to make a poll. Probably over the weekend. Then again, the Rosalina forums are pretty active so I doubt we're the norm.

 

[Thinkaman]

Dumping pre-constructed sets from a 3DS is still the fastest way to make a Wii U tourney ready, regardless of unlocking.

Unlocking moves on the WiiU itself only speeds up making fresh, non-standard sets and only slightly.