Project Proposal: We can make custom moves fast, easy, and legal

Davis-Lightheart · Nov 26, 2014

I added a thread to the Pacman boards. Pfft, best of luck if that gets anything though.

Conda · Nov 26, 2014

If only sakurai let us modify custom moves in the Character Select Screen, this would all be remedied, right? We could kindly ask for this, it's a feature that would make all owners of the game happy. This may be a worthwhile community effort to spend time doing - a petition with a crapton of signatures would work.

Alongside this project, of course. Because this feature may not get brought from the 3ds to the wii u. In which case, a set of standard custom movesets and one "OPEN" layout for players to use if they need to edit a less standard custom moveset. This prevents people from mucking with the standard sets.

Davis-Lightheart · Nov 26, 2014

Instead of aiming at a person in Japan who listens more to the Japanese competitive community more than any foreign group, we should be focusing ourselves on our immediate surroundings.

It won't do to focus our efforts on an idea so fruitless, especially when all the supporters of this current movement are scattered like a bunch of lizards with their heads off, unsure of what to do. Right now, this movement actually needs a real head, and some backing, because otherwise, this mess isn't going anywhere. It certainly isn't right now.

Edit: Added a thread to the Bowser forum.

Raziek · Nov 27, 2014

Robin sets I would consider important:

2111
3111
3311
2311

Fortunately (?) Robin's customs for Elwind and Nosferatu are not exactly great, so you don't really need a ton of profiles for him/her.

I like this idea.

I have been going with the 'Bring your 3DS with customs or make a request to the TO ahead of time' route, but that option is significantly more feasible on a smaller scale.

They have been VERY popular here though, with 75% of the entrants at our last tournament using at least 1 custom.

Luco · Nov 27, 2014

Australia is very much hanging on the rest of the world. Right now we're going slightly against the grain and at locals we have customs legal (as we're only getting the wii U version tonight/tomorrow); however soon we're going to have to basically conform to make things easier on ourselves... and personally, i'd rather that was a customs-legal setting, so I fully support this project.

I have to go out but I'll prolly make a thread of some sort on the Ness boards when I get back and i'll let our skype group know too.

A BR (I don't know when that's being made for this game... hmm...) would definitely be handy in this instance, if a decision by a group of that sort was made to have customs legal I think TOs would just put up with it and do the work but because of the lack of that authority figure it's hard. So... We as a community have to be a movement that pushes this objective. WE have to be the ones that say 'customs add diversity to the game, there is no reason to include them and laziness is not an excuse - this allows our meta-game to advance.'

To be honest if you can get enough support for this it wouldn't be that hard to flip the switches and get most tournaments custom-legal again.

Some characters won't need 8 slots by the way. Characters like Ness for instance are mostly concerned with their default build, but 8 is good for characters like Palutena and Ike I think.

Tristan_win · Nov 27, 2014

Sheik will need

Default
2,2,1,1
1,2,1,1
1,2,2,1
2,2,2,1

That should cover the majority of Sheik players, everyone else that picks bouncing fish 2 or 3, needles 3, side B 1 or 3 and vanish 3 I think would know they are trying to think outside of the box.

Grenade 2 or the 'gravity grenade' is just overwhelming the best option as it guarantees combo's into usmash which is sheik strongest kill move. It's next to impossible to argue for something to be better when your playing a character who has trouble killing.

We might see BF 3 in the future but as of right now I think it's unpopular. BF1 with it's decent combo into ability and follow up is hard to argue against but BF 3 could be pick though due to it adding a insane power kill move to Sheik and give her increase ground mobility

edit: 116% in training mode on mario from the center of the stage, compare to her next best killer which is vanish at 138%

Edit2: Let me make a thread asking what people think.

Luco · Nov 27, 2014

Alright, i'm calling this the 'customs project'.

Easy, simple and quick, hey? I'll edit the link to our thread here once i've made it, but it could take a while for our custom sets to appear.

EDIT: here's the thread

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-customs-project-ness-edition.380063/#post-18070741

jmjb · Nov 27, 2014

custom characters need to save to their respective amiibo. there's no way to bring custom characters with you, and amiibo are the perfect way!

Nintendo would be able to appear to a more wider audience than just those looking for a tamagachi.

let me carry around my amiibo like a pokeball waiting to fight random trainers I find in ~~tall grass~~ at school, game shops, tourneys, and conventions.

I ReZo I · Nov 27, 2014

DeLux said:
Is praying that someone hacks the **** out of the game for an "unlock everything" code a constructive alternative?

If that happens in the next month, that would easily be our best bet. But even if that happens, this project still has value since it will still help speed up the character build process significantly.

This is our real only option to get this going. Being as knowledgeable as you are, and a Backroomer, you have the Connections to find a person/group that can create an "unlock all" and TOs can then just put it on an external HDD/Flash drive.

After this, we can then begin to work on creating a way to implement the custom move slots for each character.

If they can make Project M, they can do this with their hands tied behind their back.

I am currently finishing my computer programming degree, so I can help as much as possible.

If we are able to extract the save file to an external hdd/flash drive, we should be able to decompile it, edit what we need, and then recompile it.

Only downfall is if it is in Japanese, we will need someone fluent to translate lol

This is our best bet on getting this to the forefront, and now is the time to do it, I have tons of experience modding games across ask platforms, only no experience modding Nintendo systems/Games

Conda · Nov 27, 2014

I ReZo I said:
This is our real only option to get this going. Being as knowledgeable as you are, and a Backroomer, you have the Connections to find a person/group that can create an "unlock all" and TOs can then just put it on an external HDD/Flash drive.

After this, we can then begin to work on creating a way to implement the custom move slots for each character.

If they can make Project M, they can do this with their hands tied behind their back.

I am currently finishing my computer programming degree, so I can help as much as possible.

If we are able to extract the save file to an external hdd/flash drive, we should be able to decompile it, edit what we need, and then recompile it.

Only downfall is if it is in Japanese, we will need someone fluent to translate lol

This is our best bet on getting this to the forefront, and now is the time to do it, I have tons of experience modding games across ask platforms, only no experience modding Nintendo systems/Games

Not to mention game patches may break things, you can never depend on a modded game to work in an online infrastructure where patches happen.

guedes the brawler · Nov 27, 2014

jmjb said:
custom characters need to save to their respective amiibo. there's no way to bring custom characters with you, and amiibo are the perfect way!

Nintendo would be able to appear to a more wider audience than just those looking for a tamagachi.

let me carry around my amiibo like a pokeball waiting to fight random trainers I find in ~~tall grass~~ at school, game shops, tourneys, and conventions.

this would really work well on places like brazil where amiibo aren't cheap.

chipndip · Nov 27, 2014

Reading this thread, this is exactly why I was against custom moves in the competitive scene: It doesn't naturally fit. You're literally shoehorning them into a space where they aren't needed and just over-complicate proceedings. The fact that implementing custom moves needs separate threads and game plans just goes to show how out of place they are in a competitive setting.

Someone even suggested hacking. You're seriously turning to (technically) crime for the sake of custom moves? This seriously needs a good step back and a good looking at. People gripe over PM disrespecting work on the Smash series, and now we're turning to HACKING Smash's unlockables?

Raziek · Nov 27, 2014

chipndip said:
Reading this thread, this is exactly why I was against custom moves in the competitive scene: It doesn't naturally fit. You're literally shoehorning them into a space where they aren't needed and just over-complicate proceedings. The fact that implementing custom moves needs separate threads and game plans just goes to show how out of place they are in a competitive setting.

Someone even suggested hacking. You're seriously turning to (technically) crime for the sake of custom moves? This seriously needs a good step back and a good looking at. People gripe over PM disrespecting work on the Smash series, and now we're turning to HACKING Smash's unlockables?

They're in the game. That's plenty natural.

TLMSheikant · Nov 27, 2014

I think

needs these:

1. 2131
2. 1131
3. 2133
4. 2233
5. 2331
6. 2333

Upb 3 should probably always be used over the other 2. Mainly because of it's super armor in the rising slash part. It can save TL from a gimp and since it doesnt rise much until the super armor part, it makes it weird to gimp. Fire arrows are pretty cool but there's a set there with regular arrows if the TL player likes those. Both bomb 1 and bomb 3 are good and it depends on which one the TL player prefers. Before the BLC removal, I only would've considered dropping regular bombs in some matchups but now short-fuse bombs might even be better than bomb 1.

Deleted member · Nov 27, 2014

Just made a thread for this in the Toon Link forum. Personally, I just care that Toon Link gets 2121 (fire arrow, boomerang, sliding spin attack, bombs).
:170:

I ReZo I · Nov 27, 2014

Conda said:
Not to mention game patches may break things, you can never depend on a modded game to work in an online infrastructure where patches happen.

Like I had mentioned in the other thread, as well as this one, the game itself is not being modded. We are editing the already pre-existing save files that determine whether something is unlocked or not.

From a programming perspective, usually for setting up unlockables through achievements/random item drops, you would have the item/achievement set to a Boolean variable (true, false) or have it as an integer value and Compare it on a fixed update

For example:

isDuckHuntUnlocked = false; *or* 0;

After we go in and edit the save data it will look like this:

isDuckHuntUnlocked = true; *Or* 1;

*Or* is being used here to explain to you one of two Common practices.

In your own current save data, when you first put the brand new game in and played, your very own "isDuckHuntUnlocked" variable was initially set to false.

When you actually unlocked him on your own your "isDuckHuntUnlocked" variable was then set to true and it auto saved it, so that from now on, whenever you log in, your variable is set to true.

What we are trying to accomplish here is to take the save data, change all the "isDuckHuntUnlocked" , the ones for all the characters custom moves variables to true, etc.

Then, distribute that file to the TOs so that they can put it on a flash drive/external hdd and walk up to 1 of their competition Wii U's, copy/move file from flash drive and replace the old save data with the new save data. Rinse and repeat, everything is unlocked.

From a programmer standpoint, using boolean's or a set "0, 1" integer ratio to determine if something is unlocked is extremely easy. Doing anything more than that would actually put more unnecessary work on the programmer. Since they are likely strapped for time, they wouldn't dare waste time doing basic coding

Hopefully you now understand.

TL;DR
Essentially what we are doing is taking a 100% complete save file and putting it on multiple Wii U's for tournament organizers to be able to efficiently run a tournament.

FimPhym · Nov 27, 2014

Dedede is pretty awkward here. I've read what some off the dedede board regulars think of customs and it matched my opinion: dedede gets very little from customs. That said, the moves he can change are sort of based on preference and there's a lot of possible combinations of preferences.

For example, in slot one inhale or taste test are both fine choices and you want one set with storm for Rosalina if that move is as good vs luma as I've read. In slot two you want gordo or sometimes bouncing gordo. In slot three you usually want default, but rising dedede is a valid choice too. For slot four, all the jet hammers suck but you might conceivably want armour, dash or default each for hyper specific situations.

So trying to maximise the good options and ignoring the marginal jet hammers I think dedede looks something like

1) 3111
2) 1311
3) 3311
4) 1121
5) 3121
6) 1321
7) 3321
8) 2111

That covers most (all?) taste test/bouncing gordo/rising dedede combinations and leaves room for one anti Rosalina set at them end. I wonder if @Jabejazz or @

Smooth Criminal would agree. Thumbs up, or should we discuss this further on the dedede board?

Edit: also @

Lavani whose pool of knowledge seems endless.

Smooth Criminal · Nov 28, 2014

I would agree with those choices, but I think this is something we need to discuss over on the D3 boards.

Unless @

Lavani and @Jabejazz wanna weigh in now and speak for the less than 10 people that play this character. :v

Smooth Criminal

Jigglymaster · Nov 28, 2014

Mii Brawler is pretty much only
1122 or 1132, but idk about 1132 cause piston punch already causes enough problems.

Jiggs is 1111

Shulk is 1113

Ryu_Ken · Nov 28, 2014

Made a thread in the Link boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/top-8-max-custom-sets-for-link.380198/
There's been pretty decent activity there, so hopefully we'll get some submissions in.

Lavani · Nov 28, 2014

2121 (2123?) sounds better for the anti-Rosalina set to me, unless I'm missing something the default upB does in the matchup that isn't really gimmicky. Not sure how I feel about default Jet Hammer on every set, but they're all their own flavor of suck and I don't have any real input on the matter.

I agree that we should discuss this on the Dedede boards.

Reaperfan · Nov 28, 2014

My ideal dream for custom moves would be a situation where someone somewhere unlocks all the custom moves, then uploads their save file as an SD card download online. You want all the custom moves, then all you have to do is download that save data.

Mind you I'm not even sure if that's possible or if it would be considered "hacking" but stil...would save alot of time.

Terotrous · Nov 28, 2014

I don't think it's necessary to predetermine the best sets, particularly considering that's an exercise that could take weeks or months. If you're a TO running such a tournament, just ask your players to request their sets before you have the event and create them. It's more important to just get some custom tournaments running right now because the custom meta needs more exposuire.

QuickLava · Nov 28, 2014

Hey all. I decided I'd just pop in real quick to voice my support for this project, and I decided I'd try to help somehow. I notice we don't really have a set name for what we're doing here, nor do we have any real logo to use. So, I went and whipped up a little something to try to make us look a little more organized. Introducing for the first time on the Interwebs, "Amazing Ampharos' Custom Movement"!

Amazing Ampharos · Nov 28, 2014

Haha, that's some graphic, but this isn't about me. It's about doing something to help the community play the best game it can.

While this topic has been buzzing and many of you have been going out and getting to work, I've been working hard on the back-end getting this arranged as an official project (with Thinkaman's help, likely to no one's great surprise). What that basically means is that we're going to have improved visibility versus what we would have otherwise and likely some back-end help organizing stuff; these things are important to seeing this succeed as a truly useful resource. I have an OP drafted for any forum that has yet to make such a topic (which is most of them I think?), and I'll be thinking how to integrate those topics that are already rolling. It will probably take me a few more hours to get things fully set, but things are moving along at a good clip and we're in a good position to have something usable for TOs ASAP.

ParanoidDrone · Nov 28, 2014

Amazing Ampharos said:
Haha, that's some graphic, but this isn't about me. It's about doing something to help the community play the best game it can.

While this topic has been buzzing and many of you have been going out and getting to work, I've been working hard on the back-end getting this arranged as an official project (with Thinkaman's help, likely to no one's great surprise). What that basically means is that we're going to have improved visibility versus what we would have otherwise and likely some back-end help organizing stuff; these things are important to seeing this succeed as a truly useful resource. I have an OP drafted for any forum that has yet to make such a topic (which is most of them I think?), and I'll be thinking how to integrate those topics that are already rolling. It will probably take me a few more hours to get things fully set, but things are moving along at a good clip and we're in a good position to have something usable for TOs ASAP.

Good to hear there's progress, I have faith in you and Thinkaman.

In other news, the Rosalina topic officially has more than 8 suggested sets so I plan to let it go a few more days so it'll still be visible over the weekend then make a poll. Is it possible for a poll to limit people to a specific-but-still-more-than-one number of choices?

NairWizard · Nov 28, 2014

It's very important that each character board actually responds. Some boards have little activity or are incentivized to not respond due to weak customs or general resistance to customs.

For customs to have a chance, the response must happen quickly. So please, if you make a thread about this topic for your board, suggest 8 custom sets yourself in the OP. If no one responds to the thread by a certain deadline, then those 8 sets will be the sets used for that character until further notice. This maneuver incentivizes people to actually make some choices to get the optimal custom loadout for their characters (instead of potentially suboptimal ones).

Ryu_Ken · Nov 28, 2014

The Link thread may take a while before we start polling because the custom meta is extremely diverse as we're finding out. 1211 and 2213 are pretty common sets, but someone used 2233 in such a way it sparked interest.

Berserker. · Nov 28, 2014

Thread about Shulk customs/custom moveset project: http://smashboards.com/threads/shul...ard-custom-moveset-project-discussion.375050/

Raziek · Nov 28, 2014

Robin's is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/common-custom-special-presets-survey.380329/

NairWizard · Nov 28, 2014

I put threads in the Pikachu and Palutena boards. Will update with our decisions once we've made them.

QuickLava · Nov 29, 2014

Amazing Ampharos said:
Haha, that's some graphic, but this isn't about me. It's about doing something to help the community play the best game it can.

While this topic has been buzzing and many of you have been going out and getting to work, I've been working hard on the back-end getting this arranged as an official project (with Thinkaman's help, likely to no one's great surprise). What that basically means is that we're going to have improved visibility versus what we would have otherwise and likely some back-end help organizing stuff; these things are important to seeing this succeed as a truly useful resource. I have an OP drafted for any forum that has yet to make such a topic (which is most of them I think?), and I'll be thinking how to integrate those topics that are already rolling. It will probably take me a few more hours to get things fully set, but things are moving along at a good clip and we're in a good position to have something usable for TOs ASAP.

While it may not necessarily be about you, we will be needing a figurehead of sorts. A leader. Considering this whole thing is your idea, I feel it's only right that it be you. Even if you'd rather not be considered the boss here, I think it could really help our cause if we do have one. I mean McDonald's wouldn't be McDonald's without Ronald McDonald right? I'd also like to note that the graphic isn't just meant to sit there, it's meant to be a sort of Support Signature. It'll help us get the word out even when we aren't talking specifically about the project.

Amazing Ampharos · Nov 29, 2014

Whew, every topic now exists. Making this many topics took me forever, and I want to make it clear that I didn't mean to come off as crabby that you were narrowly beating me to the punch SolidSense and was posting in jest about it (we had a bit of a misunderstanding on that point). That being said, it's done, and here's an index of every topic for those who want a quick reference:

As per the concern of less helpful or active character boards, we have back-up plans in place to fill in the slots for those characters as needed. Of course, character boards that are active and contribute lots of ideas will be the easiest to get a really quality result for so I definitely encourage everyone to contribute insofar as you are able, but it's not the end of the world if we have a few holes before it's done as we're ready to handle that.

As per the graphic, don't get me wrong. It's hilarious and kinda flattering to see the glorious face of my old turtle represented like that (one of these days I'm going to change my avatar to some really spammable Rosalina move; perhaps if customs become a solid national standard, it will be Shooting Star Bit). I don't have any major objection to you using my likeness (or my turtle's likeness) if you believe it will do some good, but for my part, I'm going to be focusing on the project and the community is all I'm saying.

ParanoidDrone · Nov 29, 2014

Amazing Ampharos said:
(one of these days I'm going to change my avatar to some really spammable Rosalina move; perhaps if customs become a solid national standard, it will be Shooting Star Bit)

Or "Luma Lasers" as some commentators like to call them.

Although if you ask me it should be the Sassalina taunt.

chipndip · Nov 29, 2014

Raziek said:
They're in the game. That's plenty natural.

Well, so are items, and those are....banned. >_>

Point is that just because it's in the game, doesn't mean it's exactly the greatest option for competitive play. Ensuring them being available as a standard takes a lot of extra effort for "meh" payout. If it was a natural fit, we wouldn't have to make threads or "project proposals" on how to implement them to begin with.

Amazing Ampharos · Nov 29, 2014

chipndip said:
Well, so are items, and those are....banned. >_>

Point is that just because it's in the game, doesn't mean it's exactly the greatest option for competitive play. Ensuring them being available as a standard takes a lot of extra effort for "meh" payout. If it was a natural fit, we wouldn't have to make threads or "project proposals" on how to implement them to begin with.

This is all back-end work; it's not work for players who don't like doing work or for TOs. This amount of work should really not be an argument against it because of that. The core issue here isn't that using customs itself really causes problems (quite a few tournaments are already running them and doing fine), but we'd like to save time (even without this, the time is reasonable, but why not save most of the time if you can do so?) and further accomdate TOs who can't unlock the customs on every Wii U and players who don't own the 3ds version but at least have common custom move preferences. The pay-out is a game that is radically more diverse and more balanced; it's such a huge, compelling pay-off that even if the custom move system were ten times as hard to work with as it actually is I'd be wanting to support it.

The more general truth is that smash doesn't have natural rules for tournament play at all. Stage striking is a player creation. Legal stage policies are arbitrary. Using stock mode instead of time mode is a design choice by the community. Stock count and time limit is really arbitrary. We turn items off, team attack on, tell people which order they pick characters based on who won the last game, don't allow infinite stalling tactics, and don't count the results of sudden death and instead pick winners based on our own home rules. Custom moves are fully congruent with everything we've done so far and are going to continue doing in the future. 88% of the community wants to use them as well so I feel pretty good about doing my part to make it as practical as possible.

I ReZo I · Nov 29, 2014

Amazing Ampharos said:
Whew, every topic now exists. Making this many topics took me forever, and I want to make it clear that I didn't mean to come off as crabby that you were narrowly beating me to the punch SolidSense and was posting in jest about it (we had a bit of a misunderstanding on that point). That being said, it's done, and here's an index of every topic for those who want a quick reference:

As per the concern of less helpful or active character boards, we have back-up plans in place to fill in the slots for those characters as needed. Of course, character boards that are active and contribute lots of ideas will be the easiest to get a really quality result for so I definitely encourage everyone to contribute insofar as you are able, but it's not the end of the world if we have a few holes before it's done as we're ready to handle that.

As per the graphic, don't get me wrong. It's hilarious and kinda flattering to see the glorious face of my old turtle represented like that (one of these days I'm going to change my avatar to some really spammable Rosalina move; perhaps if customs become a solid national standard, it will be Shooting Star Bit). I don't have any major objection to you using my likeness (or my turtle's likeness) if you believe it will do some good, but for my part, I'm going to be focusing on the project and the community is all I'm saying.

Please update the front page with the links so that it will be seen by everyone upon first entry :D

Also, if you could add the name of the character beside the hyperlink, it would be very helpful to all the new people that pull up this post so they get a better understanding

Kinda like this for example:

Bowser - [Insert Link Here]

Bowser JR - [Insert Link Here]

Obviously you can read the end of the url, just trying to be helpful to the new people so they don't get turned off by a wall of text

I'll be creating a post about editing the save data when I have the chance, and then discussing ideas on how to transfer file over, reauthorize it, decompile, decrypt, recompile, re-encrypt etc.

It's already been done on Mario kart 8, so I know it's possible

Z1GMA · Nov 29, 2014

Aoi Inu said:
Not gonna lie though, unlocking content on the WiiU version is way way way easier than on the 3DS.

I unlocked Custom Moves really fast by playing Smash Run on 3DS. Unlocking them on WiiU takes like forever for me, though.

popsofctown · Nov 29, 2014

Should Mii Fighters really get the same approach as the other characters? The idea is to anticipate the sets people will want but Mii Fighter custom specials are so carefully balanced that it's pretty hard to anticipate people's wants, especially for the underdeveloped metagames of Gunner and Swordfighter. But then on top of that even if you guess right on someone's custom special wants, the weight might not be right. Even as an initial setup cost that sets a wii for life, I'm not sure putting 1213 min weight min height gunner on a wii is worth the hopes that someone will show up wanting to use that set.

I think that instead the setup time devoted to those characters should be spent on creating mii with certain preset height/weight parameters and named after their parameters. Then those can be used as a base to create a fighter on a wii at game-time at a tournament, or during pre-reg. If you just don't delete such setups, over time eventually you'll get all the most popular setups frequently available.

ParanoidDrone · Nov 29, 2014

popsofctown said:
Should Mii Fighters really get the same approach as the other characters? The idea is to anticipate the sets people will want but Mii Fighter custom specials are so carefully balanced that it's pretty hard to anticipate people's wants, especially for the underdeveloped metagames of Gunner and Swordfighter. But then on top of that even if you guess right on someone's custom special wants, the weight might not be right. Even as an initial setup cost that sets a wii for life, I'm not sure putting 1213 min weight min height gunner on a wii is worth the hopes that someone will show up wanting to use that set.

I think that instead the setup time devoted to those characters should be spent on creating mii with certain preset height/weight parameters and named after their parameters. Then those can be used as a base to create a fighter on a wii at game-time at a tournament, or during pre-reg. If you just don't delete such setups, over time eventually you'll get all the most popular setups frequently available.

As far as I know, you can create an indefinite number of Miis (storage space notwithstanding I guess, like that will ever be a problem nowadays) so it should be possible to just make a Mii for every possible set and call it a day. A huge pain in the ass, but still.

Project Proposal: We can make custom moves fast, easy, and legal

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