Project M Social Thread

[Shell]

If anyone starts another L-canceling debate here I will smite them.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Wavebuster]

The crux of my arguement was that edgehogging in Melee was an entirely no risk and straightforward action: but you only get the option to do it when you have a positional advantage and properly read your oponent's recovery options (so it could actually work).

What good reason is there for it to be more complicated than grabbing the edge and pressing L? The other method arbitrarily makes the action more compicated and riskier.

As with some others here, I'd much rather see the rolling ledge occupancy window reduced slightly from Melee as more reasonable method of adding necessary skill. That way you're still given all the same advantages as in Melee (a good thing), only with somewhat stricter timing, and still with none of the downsides/complications of the ledge grab method.

I don't see any logic in going further than that just for 'skill'-sake.

The thing is, the ledge grab method is still retardedly effective even with Melee's high occupancy. My point was that people who have complained about this refuse to learn how to edgehog this way to realize how effective it is. If done correctly, you can maintain invulnerability without being attackable through ledge regrabs. It's really not that complicated after you play it that way for a while. I see no sense in giving more advantage when this powerful mechanic exists in the game and fills the gap ledge occupancy left behind.

To even out the playing out the playing field between the characters, I find it a better option to reduce the effectiveness of free, easy edgehogs than it is to give the ease of doing this to everyone as that would just make games silly. Not all characters have the moves and flow to force enemies to the edge and off the edge so easily, as seen in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpbCBT1TGdg

 

[Haloedhero]

Jackpot, silentdoom is a member of the PMBR and had permission from shanus to use it.

...

Not to mention that the concept of OHC doesn't belong to the P:M team, and Sdoom, or any competent PSAer, for that matter, could have coded it himself if he wanted. (And I believe, in fact, that he did, since it's not exactly the same.)

But I digress. I'm very much for adjusting LO on a per move basis. Keeping it melee exact would be silly. It is the way it is in melee because that's how the game was made, so our choices were to use it to our advantage or stupidly ignore a tactic that was effective.

However, P:M has no such problem. We don't have to just accept that it is what it is and use it or get left in the dust. We have the opportunity to adjust it. Yet, I still think it needs very little change from Melee. In the case of some moves that get a little bit ridiculous in terms of LO, why would we leave it like melee when it shouldn't have even been like that in melee? However, where there's no problem with the way a move was in melee, why not leave it exact?

Tl;dr:
This melee, brawl, or somewhere in between question shouldn't even be considered on a general basis, but on a per move basis. It'll take way longer, but it is the right way to do it.

 

[Strong Badam]

When in a position where pressing R would kill him in Melee it won't kill him in Project Melee. That is enough to not only increase the length of games but it also can potentially change overall outcomes.

So like if an attack would have killed DK in Melee but it doesn't in PM because his Up-B is improved, does that make the game worse?

 

[Crispy4001]

The thing is, the ledge grab method is still retardedly effective even with Melee's high occupancy. My point was that people who have complained about this refuse to learn how to edgehog this way to realize how effective it is. If done correctly, you can maintain invulnerability without being attackable through ledge regrabs. It's really not that complicated after you play it that way for a while. I see no sense in giving more advantage when this powerful mechanic exists in the game and fills the gap ledge occupancy left behind.

What's wrong with having both? If it's more effective to do that than to try for a rolling edgehog with slightly reduced LO (from Melee), that would be the best of both worlds.

Melee vets would still get to play with the same approach and tactics with more appropriate timings, while people who want go about it a differently have a potentially superior, more difficult to perform option.

To even out the playing out the playing field between the characters, I find it a better option to reduce the effectiveness of free, easy edgehogs than it is to give the ease of doing this to everyone as that would just make games silly. Not all characters have the moves and flow to force enemies to the edge and off the edge so easily, as seen in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpbCBT1TGdg

If someone has the skill to pull off the grabbing ledge-hog consistently enough to fill "the gap ledge occupancy left behind," it would still essentially be a free, easy kill for them.

The same character balance issues would exist if what you said in the first bit I quoted is supposed to make sense.



... Also, pardon any ignorance here, but couldn't ledge re-grabbing be used to stall? I know vBrawl has those issues - just want an explanation as to what makes P:M different in that.

 

[Wavebuster]

... Also, pardon any ignorance here, but couldn't ledge re-grabbing be used to stall? I know vBrawl has those issues - just want an explanation as to what makes P:M different in that.

Currently, nothing. Which is why I don't think touching ledge occupancy is a good idea at all as the first go-to option.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Project M doesn't give you 5 hours of invincibility when you touch the ledge.

 

[Crispy4001]

Project M doesn't give you 5 hours of invincibility when you touch the ledge.

Meaning you can't maintain invulerability, right? That would imply ledge re-grabbing is invulnerability with spurts of vulnerability. Or is it that someone has to grab your ledge from you to stop your shenanigans?

Currently, nothing. Which is why I don't think touching ledge occupancy is a good idea at all as the first go-to option.

I do agree that you wouldn't want to change ledge occupancy to address stalling. But rolling/attacking ledge occupacy really has no relevance to that.

 

[Strong Badam]

ledge invinc is the same as in melee, where ledge stalling is possible but not to the extent of Brawl.

 

[Wavebuster]

Couple things about that are 1. you can let go of the edge much faster in PM than Brawl and 2. large Brawl like ledge grab ranges are still present.

As far as the earlier points, I don't mind edgehogging taking more skill, even if it ultimately gains the same results. Also, what happens right now with a timed ledge grab is the 30 frames invul you get for grabbing the edge, then the 20+ you get for climbing. That's how much ledge occupancy you have. However, because of large ledge grab ranges out of special fall, the 20+ frames for climbing may not matter. Your best method to edgehog at the time being is to counter the enemy's UpB entirely with the ledge grab invulnerability and stay on as they fall.

 

[Strong Badam]

ledge invinc is 37 frames

 

[Wavebuster]

I do agree that you wouldn't want to change ledge occupancy to address stalling. But rolling/attacking ledge occupacy really has no relevance to that.

I mentioned that because the easier "planking" in PM right now thanks to ledge grab ranges compounded with Melee's occupancy would actually make the edge game even sillier than it was in Melee. There are multiple factors in how the edgehog game as a whole works, and ledge occupancy is far from the single most definitive factor but is always the first to be blamed.

-thanks for the correction, SB

 

[Cero]

How do people feel about the fact that character's can grab the ledge backwards out of special fall?

 

[Archangel]

As far as I know it only effects Mario. Everyone else shouldn't really be effected at all. In fact there were times were people would UpB backwards by mistake and die via silliness...that shouldn't happen now at least.

 

[I R MarF]

I've always been for removing reverse ledge grab box's on select characters, and removing all reverse ledge grab box's on air dodge. However, I am not sure if this is possible, or will even happen when it is.

 

[GHNeko]

1. I support matching <99 LO rolls/get up to >100. If not that, than what we have now is okay with me.

I've always felt that Melee's LO was very braindead, at least specfically ledge rolls and certain get ups.

2. Why should some characters be allowed to grab backwards at apex of special fall, but not others?

 

[SHOTTYGURU]

So has anyone here besides PMBR members went back to melee after playing the demo for so long? Melee feels so wierd to me now i guess because PM seems more smooth idk :/

 

[Archangel]

editing LO to be significantly shorter goes against the goal of the project which is to get the melee feel. It's no different from deciding you want to take all spikes out of the game and replace them with meteors because you've always felt spiking was brain dead and meteors add an element of skill. True or not is irrelevant. What matters is that you first get the melee feel. I say set timing to melee's and let people test for themselves in demo v2. If enough people say the timing is too much then change it.

 

[Evil Peach]

Spam Arrows, ledge occupancy, by itself, is not the single most defining factor in the edgehogging game right now, or difficulty thereof. Not even in the demo which you have access to, thus this should be something you are able to notice.

Let me think off the top of my head what is different from Melee and PM that might hold any significance...

Meteors uncancelable until frame 16 (most meteor canceling is irrelevant now)
Directional FSmash input after charge frame instead of initial input (better than Melee imo)
Powershield gives no shield push (all characters can reliably counter out of a PS instead of just a few)
RAR aerials
Glide tossing
Near instant dash attacks with C-stick <3
B-reversals (aka manual B-sticking)
Ledge jumps having much better IASA (they're actually a viable option and not a mistake to use)
Reverse edge grabs out of special fall (fine concept but range is too large)
No phantom hits (don't care either way since phantom hits happened for a reason)
A much expanded, rebalanced roster compared to Melee. Do not underestimate what kind of effect learning all these new matchups can have on people who are already comfortably winning money in Melee.

I care not for what we receive as long as the result is playable and everything has merit. This might seem revolutionary to some, but low ledge occupancy has merit when you look at the big picture as for how edgehogging works. The "nothing has to change" mindset never would have borne PM in the first place.

 

[Archangel]

Spam Arrows, ledge occupancy, by itself, is not the single most defining factor in the edgehogging game right now, or difficulty thereof. Not even in the demo which you have access to, thus this should be something you are able to notice.

Let me think off the top of my head what is different from Melee and PM that might hold any significance...

Meteors uncancelable until frame 16 (most meteor canceling is irrelevant now)
Directional FSmash input after charge frame instead of initial input (better than Melee imo)
Powershield gives no shield push (all characters can reliably counter out of a PS instead of just a few)
RAR aerials
Near instant dash attacks with C-stick <3
Reverse edge grabs out of special fall (fine concept but range is too large)
No phantom hits (don't care either way since phantom hits happened for a reason)
A much expanded, rebalanced roster compared to Melee. Do not underestimate what kind of effect learning all these new matchups can have on people who are already comfortably winning money in Melee.

I care not for what we receive as long as the result is playable and everything has merit. This might seem revolutionary to some, but low ledge occupancy has merit when you look at the big picture as for how edgehogging works. The "nothing has to change" mindset never would have borne PM in the first place.

This is a good post and I agree with it but not everything that is different is an improvement. I hated the demo for a variety of reasons but most of all people kept surviving when they should have been dead. I didn't realize how much I hated it mainly because LD was a bigger distraction. If you are going to shorten the LO timing then the invincible timing should be increase for every frame of LO is decreased. What about LO is broken? roll ups at 100% and higher you could argue some take too long. Aside from that anyone else who dies from a roll up should be dead.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm just a random Brawl player but imo you should have Melee ledge occupancy, it's stupid but it's one of the game's defining aspects and without it, Project M wouldn't feel like Melee imo.

Maybe nerf DK's or something, because his is ridiculous lol, having it standardised could work.

 

[Jonas]

I don't think it'll change anything dramatically, it'll just make it look less dumb when the edgehogger rolls 9 billion frames early.

 

[Yeroc]

If you are going to shorten the LO timing then the invincible timing should be increase for every frame of LO is decreased.

Haha, no. It's already nearly broken as is.

It's already a foregone conclusion that the end result will be somewhere between Brawl and Melee. Most everyone agrees that Melee was too much, Brawl was too little. The question here is how much reduction should there be.

 

[Juushichi]

Why in the hell would you nerf previously bad characters' recoveries? That seems entirely counterproductive to what this game is trying to do.

Characters aren't dying as fast as they used to and that's for multitudes of reasons. Buffed recoveries, LO, special fall grab changes and the changed dynamic of edgeguarding. ****, the fact that the characters themselves are better should inherently mean that they're harder to lock down like that.

This shouldn't be surprising or hard to conceptualize.

 

[humble]

By the way, insofar as ledge camping shenanigans go, I'd personally like to see invincibility staling; that is, with each successive ledge grab, your invincibility frames diminish, until you touch the ground once more.

 

[ValTroX]

By the way, insofar as ledge camping shenanigans go, I'd personally like to see invincibility staling; that is, with each successive ledge grab, your invincibility frames diminish, until you touch the ground once more.

Or if you get hit, then I would go with that idea

 

[Rikana]

I like the invincibility stale idea. It sounds complicated to code though. In terms of its effectiveness to ledge hog, it won't do anything since someone can simply waveland to get back on instantly. But, if someone were to ledge camp, as you mentioned, they wouldn't have too much time before they start feeling the pressure.

 

[jalued]

Haha, no. It's already nearly broken as is.

It's already a foregone conclusion that the end result will be somewhere between Brawl and Melee. Most everyone agrees that Melee was too much, Brawl was too little. The question here is how much reduction should there be.

what he said^

I don't want games to be too drawn out though, which i still fear a reduced LO (from melee) will do

 

[PEEF!]

Haha, no. It's already nearly broken as is.

It's already a foregone conclusion that the end result will be somewhere between Brawl and Melee. Most everyone agrees that Melee was too much, Brawl was too little. The question here is how much reduction should there be.

I don't like claims like this. Several of the members think Melee ledge occupancy is just fine in Project: M.

 

[Deleted member]

Why should some characters be allowed to grab backwards at apex of special fall, but not others?

Recoveries should be inherently limited on a case by case basis.

Selectively apply tweaks to characters that actually need them. Like ****ty crappy characters who suck at recovering or can't recover in a versatile manner.

Characters who define Melee need little to no changes. The few changes implemented should hold good purpose.

If you implement this, you can keep these techniques but not **** things over for all the characters.

 

[Stevo]

I think what the PMBR really wants is a discussion for or against Melee Ledge occupancy

Arguments for melee LO

1. It is what we are used to
2. Game length will stay closer to the quick feel of melee.
3. Some recoveries will be buffed/nerfed based on a different LO

Validation/Rebuttal of Arguments for melee LO

1. I think this is a somewhat valid argument given the length of time melee has been out and the fact that the main intented audience are people that like the feel of melee. This is somewhat refuted by the fact that Project M, despite being modeled after melee, is in fact a new game, and will play differently no matter what. Also, change can be good and there are improvements that can be made on melee.

I think you are excluding some important but sutble arguments for Melee LO:

1: Keeping it allows us to edgehog the same way we did in Melee, instead of having to edgehog like we are playing Brawl. <<<This is important.

2: More likely to attract Melee players by principle.

3: The project can claim faithful adherence to core accepted Melee mechanics.

2. I have a harder time agreeing with this argument, as I would rather a skill intensive exciting game of melee than worry about how fast it is done. What people really like about melee's game length is the large swings in momentum that getting fast kills can lead to. I feel that more skill intensive ledgeguarding can lead to these large swings regardless and that they might even be more entertaining in the end and more demoralizing for your opponent. If it is from time constraints, play with 3 stocks only. Nothing says you have to stick with 4 stocks Bo3 if you don’t want to.

3. Except for a few top tier melee characters, we are going to have a brand new set of recoveries and recovery options, so to sit there and say so-and-so will be able to recover a better because of this just seems ridiculous. One thing to note is that in general recoveries will be successful a little more often, but this leads into more options for both players, and I think this ties directly into the “games will take longer” argument.


Arguments against melee Ledge Occupancy

1. Tether recoveries, in their current state, would be a lot worse with melee ledge occupancy.
2. Melee LO does not test the player’s skill as much and simplifies some edge guarding situations where other options would have worked also.
3. Melee LO does not make sense visually a lot of the time.

Validation/Rebuttal of Arguments for melee LO

1. This seems like a valid concern if tether recoveries are never changed. At the moment you can say throw a projectile at the ledge to clear it for a tether recovery, but with Melee LO you could ledge roll and occupy the ledge often long enough to dodge the projectile and cancel their recovery.

2. This also seems like a valid argument. We want skill intensive awesomeness. What is better than pressing a button to kill someone? Killing someone with style. The problem here is you could say it was the other players fault for getting into a bad situation where he could be killed with a ledge roll. This is true, but most characters have great edge guarding options that will punish them in that situation almost as easily and will still grant you one of their stocks if applied properly.

3. This isn’t a major issue, as people got used to melee like it was nothing. There is a very minor concern with new players and people who didn’t play melee, but overall this is a non-issue. There IS something to be said about things being somewhat intuitive, though, but this game is balanced highly for the competitive aspect, and not necessarily for casuals. (who will enjoy it regardless, based on experiences I’ve had with melee)

for now, in my mind, based on these presented arguments, I would have to lean towards non-melee ledge occupancy. As to how close to melee, I would have to have access to the game and the new characters and everything the PMBR has access to in order to know. If I was to guess, I would say that half as much to 3/4 as much as melee is probably a good guess.

 

[PEEF!]

I think you are excluding some important but sutble arguments for Melee LO:

1: Keeping it allows us to edgehog the same way we did in Melee, instead of having to edgehog like we are playing Brawl. <<<This is important.

2: More likely to attract Melee players by principle.

3: The project can claim faithful adherence to core accepted Melee mechanics.

 

[Dan_X]

Dan! <3 How's your art doing?


You should also watch some of the char demo vids on the projectmelee channel.

Hey toaster! How have you been? How has your coding been? Getting better and better I suspect? :D

My art is coming along excellently, thank you! I'm going to art school for 3d animation and modeling soon!

 

[Stevo]

I think you are excluding some important but sutble arguments for Melee LO:

1: Keeping it allows us to edgehog the same way we did in Melee, instead of having to edgehog like we are playing Brawl. <<<This is important.

2: More likely to attract Melee players by principle.

3: The project can claim faithful adherence to core accepted Melee mechanics.

I think those all go under "it is what we are used to". But these are good validations of that point.

also, #2 can also steer brawl players away potentially. (arguing whether or not that is a good thing is another argument on its own lol)

 

[Shadic]

So has anyone here besides PMBR members went back to melee after playing the demo for so long? Melee feels so wierd to me now i guess because PM seems more smooth idk :/

Playing the demo and going back to Melee is nothing like playing the current developer build and going back to Melee.

I play several Melee characters far better now due to how much time I spend in Project M.

 

[Mono.]

As said, I'm sure many people are used to it but deep down I don't think alot of people like seeing their characters miss a ledge despite it clearly being unoccupied.

Might as well hold food out of reach of a starving kid.

 

[PEEF!]

I switch with 0 problem whatsoever.

 

[Stevo]

actually peef, if you change your second point to

More likely to attract Competitive players by principle

then I think that is actually a good argument in itself. However, I am not certain enough about the demographics of people interested in Project M to be able to really argue on that point.

 

[drsusredfish]

For anyone that's still wondering what Ivy's helicopter recovery looks like in Brawl-, here's a vid of it in action.

She could also move around on the ground, too.

I don't think that either animation should be as long as it is if seriously considered for PM, but that's just one man's opinion.

my only problem with this is my ivysaur can use fly? Does ivysaur, in the pokemon games, have any moves that look like this?

 

[Haloedhero]

Brawl's ledge occupancy was definitely too little. However, I think the argument to make it Melee exact just because Melee players will want it that way is crazy. Let's look at other things from Melee:

L cancel: like it or not, l cancel adds skill to the game. Its opponents say it's an unnecessary and trivial skill, but there's no doubt it makes the game harder.

Wavedash: While wavedash makes some things easier, doing it properly takes skill. Wavedashing makes the game harder.

Romoval of auto sweetspot: makes the game harder. I don't think there's any argument there.

Proper Hitstun: Makes the game harder, whether on the defender to avoid combos or the attacker to create combos. Adds depth; adds difficulty.

Full melee ledge occupancy: Makes edgeguarding MUCH easier in some cases. True, that obviously means that it makes recovering harder, but all of the techniques listed above make the game harder in general on offense AND defense. Full melee ledge occupancy, in some cases, makes recovery more difficult without adding difficulty on the part of the edge guarder as well.

In short, I believe this still supports my original belief that an across the board decision should be avoided, and ledge occupancy should be increased on a move by move basis with a careful eye on not making it easy, but not making it farther off from Melee than it needs to be.