Project M Social Thread

[Cubelarooso]

Really, the only thing I see wrong is that the animations don't match up, not with the actual length of the occupancy. As I said, the long occupancy is actually really fun (from the occupier's perspective). Thus, for me, the problem could be just as viably solved by changing the animations, rather than the occupancy. Although doing so could present a slew of other problems (with spacing or animation length, not to mention the difficulty of making the animations themselves), but none of them seem any worse than the potential problems coming from changing occupancy (player backlash, disrupted balance, and I don't even know how easy they are to edit). So, I have no real opinion on the subject, other than that it needs to look good and sensical.
Nevertheless, I'm interested in the discussion/argument/bawwing that will arise from this new capability. I always love a good dialectic, and observing the various methods by which different people choose to participate in it.

 

[Rikana]

Either what peef said or have it at 75%. Although Brawl's is a bit too short, but requires more skills to edge guard/hog, the length of the match seems to be stretched because some characters can keep coming back on stage. I like quick games (and I don't mean spacies matches, I meant if we can cut down the time of the matches in any way possible under logical reasoning), and I would assume many Melee vets would agree with this. I'm also not saying that ledge occupancy will completely change the game pace either because there will be characters that can still camp effectively in a Melee environment with or without the ledge occupancy being changed. For anyone that says that the animation doesn't match the ledge occupancy, you should understand that we have Melee as the foundation of this project. It never made sense in Melee, so why must it make sense in P:M?

Just don't confuse this with the pace of the game as that's completely different. The pace remains the same.

Edit: I think we should make a chart of pros and cons and just contribute to it so this discussion is much more organized.

Brawl Ledge Occupancy
Pros:
-requires more skills
-animation is matches with ledge occupancy

Pro/Con:
-characters can make it back more easily

Cons:
-possibly a lengthier game
-majority of melee vets are against it

Melee Ledge Occupancy
Pros:
-cuts down time length of each stock
-many melee vets are probably for it

Pro/Con:
-characters get gimped much more easily

Cons:
-animations don't match
-requires less skills​

 

[Haloedhero]

I think Melee ledge occupancy would be fine. If nothing else can be agreed upon, then making it Melee exact is the best compromise, even if it's not really a compromise.

However, I'm in favor of changing it from Melee, but I'm with Peef on the fact that, if anything needs changing from Melee, it should be limited to ledgerolls and some getup attacks. Like, just any of them that look ridiculous. Basically, I'd like it to visually make sense to the player whether or not the ledge can be grabbed.

Although, along the lines of ledge occupancy, would it be possible to allow tethers to grab the ledge even if someone else is on it? I'm not saying allow two people on the ledge at once like the Ice Climbers, but if you could hang from the ledge while someone else would be on it, it might be a good way to help tether recoveries if Melee tethers can't be implemented. I don't think it would be too unfair a way for tether recoveries to get around the one way they can really be edgeguarded, because the person on the ledge could just drop an aerial on the person hanging to either spike or send them under the stage.

Not saying it's a good idea, but I'm curious whether it's even possible/what other people think about it.

 

[Rikana]

Tethers are not able to grab the ledge if someone holds on to it at the moment. You would have to hit them off first then grab it with your tether.

 

[Haloedhero]

... Yeah, I know that, which is why I asked if it would be possible to change that...

 

[Rikana]

They mentioned it before. They can't do it at the moment. I believe its pretty much the same issue. You have to trick the game into thinking that no one is holding on the ledge. Unless.. they can can make the tethers have a super lingering hitbox that latches on right after they get hit. But I doubt they would do that.

 

[GP&B]

I want to believe, from a coding standpoint, that tethers can not be explicitly excluded from the ledge occupant rule.

 

[Haloedhero]

Ah, thank you. Didn't know it'd been covered before. Yeah, I thought about having tethers latch on after knocking someone else off, but I think that would be a little excessive.

 

[Ecks]

Way to go PMBR! But I thought you guys already decided to make LO be in between. To be honest both LOs are ******** in their own way. :/

And happy birthday Shagnus!

 

[PurDi]

@halo, I don't find that excessive at all. I'm all for tethers having a lasting hitbox AND being able to latch on afterwards. That's what normal recoveries do anyway, why make it harder for tethers?

Congrats on the find guys. I support anywhere from 50:50 to 75:25 melee:brawl for the occupancy though I do think ledgerolls should be adjusted appropriately.

Hopefully this can lead you guys closer to solving tethers as that is a large problem with some characters...

 

[rk-9000]

melee ledge occupancy sucked go 75/25

 

[Rikana]

I see no problem with tethers as long as they have an alternate way to recovery and if they have a strong on stage game.

 

[9Kplus1]

Hopefully this can lead you guys closer to solving tethers as that is a large problem with some characters...

... Who? Link and Samus are just fine, Toon Link is ****, and Ivysaur sucks offstage anyway. Zamus is the only character who would benefit greatly from a tether buff (lol if your talking about stage tethers).

 

[Ecks]

Olimar and Ivy both are in desperate need of a good tether. They really, really, really need good tethers. (Or just a good recovery)

 

[Rikana]

I just think that they should make Ivy's upB into a non-tether upB. I mentioned it long ago. If they can make it like Diddy's recovery where its chargeable - a burst of pollen can come out of the bulb and send Ivy in a controlled direction. I mentioned some other ridiculous things too like you can charge it on stage just to be safe and it can be stored through shielding but that might be a bit too much.

I don't know about Oli though. I thought of the idea where he can suddenly be inside of a rocket ship and just blast off. But where he pulls out the rocket ship from, I wouldn't know. It would still make sense though if the animation is flawless. Snake pulls his things out of his *** and it still looks perfectly fine. Same with Diddy's jetpacks, etc.

 

[Ecks]

I'd rather they get changed too. Olimar could have something like Ice Climbers up b. Or maybe sacrificing Pikmins for extra jumps. As cute as his up b is with all his pikmin working together, that can stay in Brawl. This is Melee, this is survival of the fittest.

 

[Deleted member]

The reason I support full Melee ledge occupancy is because it allows for characters who have bad off stage games to be able to do something.

If the PM devs do decide to make it a non standardized global technique, then I don't see too many problems. Can be adjusted/balanced iteratively.

I can see things being potentially different and possibly irritating to Melee players against this.

Marth and Sheik's recoveries could get better as a result. Peach would get harder to edgeguard when she uses up-b to grab the ledge from below.

 

[9Kplus1]

I don't know... It just seems as if Homolimar doesn't really need that much of a recovery buff. With Whistle, he shouldn't have that much of a hard time getting back to the stage; maybe making the SA frames jump cancelable would fix his recovery problem (concequentially resulting in refreshing Oli's jump if the SA frames are used), but it's likely impossible / that I'm wrong. iirc, his Pikmin chain has a considerable hop when used with less Pikmin. Oh right, I forgot about the Pikmin footstool suggestion, which would be a great idea imo.

Ivy, as I'd suggested previously, should just have a beast stage game to make up for its **** recovery. Increasing its weight, the speed of Razor Leaf and giving it more options to get back on the stage safely just seems like a workable option. It doesn't really mess with Ivy's moveset or concept as a character and might stop complaints about its recovery has the metagame develops.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think that it does need to be toned down a little bit from Melee, but closer to the Melee duration than Brawl. Melee's does seem excessively long at times, like in Jigglypuff's 100% roll (IIRC that's the one) where she rolls up into a ball and onto the stage, but there's a point in the animation where she's literally not touching the ledge with any part of her body but it still counts as occupying it. lol. (As a Jigglypuff player I love abusing this though, hehe.) But in general, I can see how it needs to be shortened in some cases.

On the other hand though, occupying the ledge to edgeguard is a legitimate tactic in Melee that required at least a little bit of skill (think of most casual players who just hang on the ledge and then get hit by people's recoveries; if you're rolling to edgeguard then you're already "advanced"). That's why I think that it needs to be closer to Melee, since the project is aiming for "Melee-like" mechanics even if they're not exact copies of them. 75% does sound like a good average balance, but of course tweaking it on a per-animation basis is the best way to go (and something that I can't judge without playing the game).

 

[Rikana]

9kplus1: In other words, you're saying turn him into another Falco.

hotdogturtle: I don't think we need to tweak the animation to make it match the ledge occupancy. People were able to adapt to Melee's even with the desynched timing of the occupancy and animation. It just adds more work for the developers. If anything, have that at the bottom of the list so many of us can be happy with the results at least.

 

[Octorox]

I just think that they should make Ivy's upB into a non-tether upB. I mentioned it long ago. If they can make it like Diddy's recovery where its chargeable - a burst of pollen can come out of the bulb and send Ivy in a controlled direction. I mentioned some other ridiculous things too like you can charge it on stage just to be safe and it can be stored through shielding but that might be a bit too much.

I don't know about Oli though. I thought of the idea where he can suddenly be inside of a rocket ship and just blast off. But where he pulls out the rocket ship from, I wouldn't know. It would still make sense though if the animation is flawless. Snake pulls his things out of his *** and it still looks perfectly fine. Same with Diddy's jetpacks, etc.

Ivy could get a leaf copter like in Brawl- (although as an Up B rather than attached to Bullet Seed)

 

[Rikana]

Never seen leaf copter. Never looked into Brawl-. A video would help, if you don't mind.

 

[metroid1117]

First off, happy birthday Shanus! I hope you have an awesome day .

Secondly, like the majority of people seem to feel, I think Melee's ledge occupancy (LO) looks and seems silly for things like get-up attacks and rolls. For specificity, most get-up attacks have roughly 21 frames of invincibility under 100% and more than 36 frames of invincibility over 100% (this greatly varies between characters) while rolls have roughly 30 frames of invincibility under 100% and roughly 59 (!) frames of invincibility over 100%. Melee's LO counts the player as on the edge for all time they are invincible, so you can see how this seems ridiculous for rolls over 100%. (I'm not 100% sure, but I recall hearing that the game counts you as on the edge for as long as you are invincible; can someone confirm this?)

All frame data was taken from SDM's site.

Never seen leaf copter. Never looked into Brawl-. A video would help, if you don't mind.

I don't have a video, but if it's like how it was in the older builds, Ivysaur basically floats in the air (like Peach's float) while you press B repeatedly during an aerial Bullet Seed.

 

[hotdogturtle]

hotdogturtle: I don't think we need to tweak the animation to make it match the ledge occupancy. People were able to adapt to Melee's even with the desynched timing of the occupancy and animation. It just adds more work for the developers. If anything, have that at the bottom of the list so many of us can be happy with the results at least.

The blogpost itself already said that they were planning on adjusting it per move. I was just agreeing with that.

 

[Rikana]

I must have missed that. My mistake.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I don't necessarily mind the desynched animations, but the arguments stand that it doesn't make much logical sense (even in the SSB universe), and that it's somewhat overpowered for some of the longer animations. I think that those arguments are completely valid, and now that the PMBR has the actual power to fix it, doing so might help add to the "professionalism" and presentation of the game, without having to remove or destroy the whole mechanic.

 

[ValTroX]

I think the ONLY possible thing that I could support be toned down a bit is rolling off the ledge, and some getup attacks. I think it is essential that all of the other occupancies, especially standup occupancies stay the same as Melee.

Agreed Peef, I don't even mind getup attacks, but everyone just hogs with roll anyway(safety+time).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, my major beef with Melee LO is basically rolling from the edge as well. It's just... dumb.

 

[Rikana]

I'm just very anxious to see it on stream. If they're doing animation alterations along with it, that would be amazing. But, I'd much rather have them put in the frame adjustments for ledge occupancy first and just show the audience through live stream on how it worked out. This will make the viewers more excited knowing that it works out very nicely and the animation to go along with it is on its way.

 

[hotdogturtle]

The way I understood the blogpost was that they can set the occupancy frames to however long or short they want, so I'm guessing that they're first going to try to match the frames with the length of the animations, and then adjust the duration from there. They probably won't have to change the actual animations. But then again I could be wrong.

 

[standardtoaster]

First off, happy birthday Shanus! I hope you have an awesome day .

Secondly, like the majority of people seem to feel, I think Melee's ledge occupancy (LO) looks and seems silly for things like get-up attacks and rolls. For specificity, most get-up attacks have roughly 21 frames of invincibility under 100% and more than 36 frames of invincibility over 100% (this greatly varies between characters) while rolls have roughly 30 frames of invincibility under 100% and roughly 59 (!) frames of invincibility over 100%. Melee's LO counts the player as on the edge for all time they are invincible, so you can see how this seems ridiculous for rolls over 100%. (I'm not 100% sure, but I recall hearing that the game counts you as on the edge for as long as you are invincible; can someone confirm this?

In melee, you are occupying the ledge for however long the animation lasts, not the amount of invincibility frames.

 

[Octorox]

First off, happy birthday Shanus! I hope you have an awesome day .

I don't have a video, but if it's like how it was in the older builds, Ivysaur basically floats in the air (like Peach's float) while you press B repeatedly during an aerial Bullet Seed.

That's basically it but he floats vertically as well as horizontally and it's due to his leaves spinning. As an Up B i definitely see it more as a quicker vertical move that ends in special fall and not like how it is in Brawl-

 

[Rikana]

Our new code will allow us to set explicit frames of ledge occupancy untied from the animation itself

I think it would be easier to adjust the frames to see how it plays in game before altering animations. I'm sure that's the order that they're gonna be approaching this new code.

 

[standardtoaster]

There's no need to change ledge animations at all. The code just allows us to set however long we want the ledge to be occupied by each character individually.

 

[Rikana]

That's what I thought. Animations can be worried about later! Did you guys start messing with it yet?

 

[jalued]

There's no need to change ledge animations at all. The code just allows us to set however long we want the ledge to be occupied by each character individually.

how long ago did you discover this code btw? just curious

 

[9Kplus1]

9kplus1: In other words, you're saying turn him into another Falco.

No, actually. Speeding up Razor Leaf would give Ivy another option for approaching and clearing the ledge with, rather than great stage control. Its pressure game shouldn't be as intense as Falco's, either. That logic can be applied to my suggestions for Ivy, granted, but it's definitely not what I was aiming for. "Ivysaur should be able to manuver across the stage both quickly and safely while remaining grounded most of the time", is what I was poking at. Ivysaur shouldn't be able to determime how fast a player can move with its projectile - which also gives it a frame advantage - or be a combo-happy glass cannon, so to speak 9.9

 

[Rikana]

I meant beast on stage game and poor recovery.

 

[9Kplus1]

I meant beast on stage game and poor recovery.

<.< >.>
... "yeah" then. I honestly don't know what Ivysaur could be doing offstage that wouldn't look awkward / not up to par with Melee physics. Iunno if it was kept, but Dair recovery sounds legit enough, as does the leaf-copter idea.

 

[Demon-oni]

Honestly, I'm in favor of keeping everything Melee except the ledge roll where I'll agree with the 75/25. It would speed up the game quite a bit, and still wouldn't feel like they have years of LO time. Melee Kirby's >100% ledge roll could kill anyone with the amount of time it takes i swear