Project M Social Thread

[Dingding123]

IMHO, anyone who thinks snake's melee attacks are weak misses his ridiculous Brawl melee attacks (at least somewhat).

His kill moves and gimp setups are his explosives; his melee attacks are meant to get people at high enough % and to keep them away for long enough so that he can set up his mines, throw grenades and follow up with melee attacks to finish them off, or drop or sticky C4.


/end snake rant
/start actual reason for posting

Apologies if this has all already been discussed before, but has messing with 2v2 gameplay ever been considered in Project M? I know you guys won't start working on it now or anytime soon (please get that patch ready for summer! :D ) but I've come up with a few ideas for 2v2 gameplay.

Friendly fire is a liiiiiiittle too extreme for 2v2. Having to sit back in a 2v1 and wait till your friend either finishes the remaining opponent off, gets KO'ed, or sends him/her/it/them flying your way in order to participate without potentially killing off your own teammate or helping them get combo'd is dull, and underutilizes the potential of 2v1. Consider the following:

-Melee attacks deal half damage and KB to allies.

-Projectiles either:
A.) Go through and do not affect your teammates unless an AOE hitbox comes from the projectiles hitting another target, or
B.) Only hit your teammates if they are currently attacking (In other words, they go through an ally that is dodging, has his/her/its/their shield up, standing still, jumping, walking or running).

This would make 2v1's a bit more one-sided, but not TOO one-sided. 2v1's and 3v1's with a handicap for the minority would be more balanced and more interesting.

Your thoughts? .-.

 

[leelue]

There's no such thing as fresh in p:m, yoshi

Also, the fact that snake's "kill" attacks aren't very strong is odd. brawl spoiled us, ha.

Snake has easily received the most negative of a response from the public, and the team should be aware by now. I'm sure they'll take steps to make him less shaky.

its not even like he's underplayed.


As for the 2v2 stuff
No. Friendly fire is necessary, and nobody is telling you not to communicate with your partner and work around each other rather than wait. It's a skill that we should want to foster.
Not only is winning a 2v1 hard enough as is, but having projectiles pass through would make some teams unfair beyond belief. Double falco? No thanks...

 

[ClinkStryphart]

diverting conversation away from lucario because I can't see it

so
has the issue that I pointed out on smashmods concerning sonic and the way that his homing attack will outright miss a standing captain falcon been addressed?

Didn't know there was an issue with falcon and sonic. but that part of Lucario on the stream from shanus should still be up. The recording was atleast yesterday and that was around 3AM when I watched it. I do have 1 issue though with Lucario from what Ive seen its a nice concept but the giant spirit bomb I wanna call it seems like it moves really slow is it because it has a ton of KO power or is it that slow due to it being still in a testing phase? Just wondering because it seems like characters with a reflect or absorb can easly block it. not 100% sure though. But regardless the rest of Lucario looks beast.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

There's no such thing as fresh in p:m, yoshi

Also, the fact that snake's "kill" attacks aren't very strong is odd. brawl spoiled us, ha.

Snake has easily received the most negative of a response from the public, and the team should be aware by now. I'm sure they'll take steps to make him less shaky.

its not even like he's underplayed.

I meant in terms of damage since we have damage decay now.

Relying exclusively on explosives for KOs is not going to work against many characters in the long run since I can see very easy counters coming up for things like the mine.

This does not sounds like a character that can keep up with the space animals, the emblem prince, or even the princesses.

I'm gonna wait for a bit and see if execution supports this(which I strongly believe it will).

Anyway, leave friendly fire as is.
Can you imagine laser spam without friendly fire??

>_<

 

[IYM!]

IMHO, anyone who thinks snake's melee attacks are weak misses his ridiculous Brawl melee attacks (at least somewhat).

that isnt my case, i dont like the ridiculous strenght than snake have in Brawl, but here in P:M he is too weak.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I'm positive the team knows this already and we should move on to another topic, but first:

the thought of no friendly fire in teams is LOL worthy. Double Falco laser/Samus missle spam - friendly fire = lolololool

I await the next blogpost, whenever it is.

 

[IYM!]

is good read that, i am not a Snake fan, but i would like see a balanced roster, that is all

 

[Dingding123]

As for the 2v2 stuff
No. Friendly fire is necessary, and nobody is telling you not to communicate with your partner and work around each other rather than wait. It's a skill that we should want to foster.
Not only is winning a 2v1 hard enough as is, but having projectiles pass through would make some teams unfair beyond belief. Double falco? No thanks...

Anyway, leave friendly fire as is.
Can you imagine laser spam without friendly fire??

>_<

I'm positive the team knows this already and we should move on to another topic, but first:

the thought of no friendly fire in teams is LOL worthy. Double Falco laser/Samus missle spam - friendly fire = lolololool

It's like you guys didn't even read my post. You just see "Friendly fire is a bit too extreme" and assume it means "Derp friendly fire should be removed, spam ftw", screw the rest of the post because I don't participate with this forum daily and move on with your assumptions.

Now I know why people are tired of checking up on this thread.

 

[Vigilante]

Friendly fire is fine as it is. The fun in Friendly Fire is that you have to actively work with your teamste and be mind*** of where he is. If you're good, you should not hit him much.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

What Vigilante said.

Not to mention that even with those "rules" you put up, laser spam can still happen.

 

[MonkUnit]

We're not touching Friendly Fire.

 

[IYM!]

asking for no friendly fire is like ask fo automatic L-cancel, seriously, I am not exagerating.

isnt just for prevent a without control double laser/missile/Bombs,boomerangs/pikmins/vegetables/or whatever projectile spaming.

is for evitate unfair tactics, locks and unbeateable duoble combos.
Can you imagine 2 pikachus spaming Uairs in Smash64?
Can you imagine being Shined by 2 fox at the same time in melee, or have to avoid a double Knee spaming?
can you imagine have to deal with 2 Matchtornados in Brawl, or have to deal with 4 snake granades?

this also give more strategy to the game, and obligate to the player to have skills in team work


that is why the friendly fire funtion is on, in team battles

 

[Onomanic]

I've played a couple of dubz friendlies and friendly fire is fine. It worked in Melee, why change it in PM? Just because something can be changed doesn't mean it should.

 

[leelue]

obv
I read what you said, the whole thing. friendly fire any other way would be bad.

 

[metroid1117]

He's not saying eliminate friendly fire, he's just talking about nerfing it. Either way, I'm strongly against changing the current system.

Apologies if this has all already been discussed before, but has messing with 2v2 gameplay ever been considered in Project M? I know you guys won't start working on it now or anytime soon (please get that patch ready for summer! :D ) but I've come up with a few ideas for 2v2 gameplay.

Friendly fire is a liiiiiiittle too extreme for 2v2. Having to sit back in a 2v1 and wait till your friend either finishes the remaining opponent off, gets KO'ed, or sends him/her/it/them flying your way in order to participate without potentially killing off your own teammate or helping them get combo'd is dull, and underutilizes the potential of 2v1.

The key aspect to 2v2, obviously, is the team chemistry between the teammates. If it's a 2v1, both players should be covering the remaining opponent's options by sandwiching them, not switching in 1v1s. Even if you and your teammate are on the same side as the opponent, the closest person can go for a grab and either hold them there for the other person or set up traps by forcing them to tech. Another basic way is to just wait for your opponent to hit your partner and then rush in with an attack of your own during the cool-down of your opponent's attack.

Consider the following:

-Melee attacks deal half damage and KB to allies.

-Projectiles either:
A.) Go through and do not affect your teammates unless an AOE hitbox comes from the projectiles hitting another target, or
B.) Only hit your teammates if they are currently attacking (In other words, they go through an ally that is dodging, has his/her/its/their shield up, standing still, jumping, walking or running).

This would make 2v1's a bit more one-sided, but not TOO one-sided. 2v1's and 3v1's with a handicap for the minority would be more balanced and more interesting.

I don't see how this would give a "handicap to the minority" considering that you're downplaying the risks of sloppy gameplay (i.e. having your hitboxes come in contact with your partner). I think it would make it even harder for the person without a teammate; since projectiles don't hit your ally if they're running (without an active hitbox), one person can just run in front of a Falco that's short-hopping lasers at the opponent. If the opponent jumps, the running ally can jump after them; if they shield or spot-dodge, the running ally gets a grab. This also decreases the incentive to properly space melee attacks to hit a grabbed opponent; if the attack has halved knockback and damage, there's very little reason not to hit both your partner and opponent unless your partner is at very high percents. In addition, according to your second case for projectiles, your partner cannot get hit by a projectile if they are simply grabbing an opponent but not doing grab attack; there would be absolutely no reason not to build up damage with projectiles (that don't have splash hitboxes) and then hit both players with a powerful attack (unless the projectile is sufficiently strong enough like Samus' charge beam or Lucario's Aura Sphere).

 

[MonkUnit]

We're not touching Friendly Fire.

 

[IYM!]

He's not saying eliminate friendly fire, he's just talking about nerfing it. Either way, I'm strongly against changing the current system.

ah, that is diferent, i dont have problem of how Friendly fire (FF) is as it is now. but maybe would not be a bad idea nerf it.

but is P:M team opinion more important

 

[Flynn360]

lol 2v1 is what waiting is all about if FF is on u both cant just start attacking the same opponent u have no choice(or your partner) but to wait until they throw or hit back to you

what i am saying is Friendly Fire is as good as it is

 

[Flynn360]

how do u delete posts

 

[BinAly]

Pointless discussion, Monk already stated that Friendly Fire is out of their scope.

--

Any of you guys finding hard to get out of Shine with a BAir? I always end but Fairing the enemy. My timings must be really screwed up, but in Melee I found it easier to do.

 

[MonkUnit]

Could be hitlag.

 

[leelue]

flynn, I don't think that you can

 

[NeoZ]

Pointless discussion, Monk already stated that Friendly Fire is out of their scope.

--

Any of you guys finding hard to get out of Shine with a BAir? I always end but Fairing the enemy. My timings must be really screwed up, but in Melee I found it easier to do.

It's not really timing, you're turning around because you're tilting the stick to the sides while JCing the shine, I used to do it a lot, but it's not hard to fix with a bit of practice, try consciously moving it in a straighter path, it's not like there's much else you can do, other than JCing with the buttons instead of the control stick.

 

[Onomanic]

Wait, so the normal input for JC Shines is to jump with the control stick? That explains why JC shining is impossible for me.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So was any of this lucario stuff recorded?

 

[Vigilante]

It was saved, but I don't remember the stream name.

Just google Try hard troupe and you'll probably find it.

 

[kaizo13]

in the words of Sneak......Snake is fine. I can't stress enough how people were complaining that he was too good before they got their hands on him. good players make him look good......so get good.

and here's the Lucario footage, skip the first hour http://www.justin.tv/tryhardtroupe/b/284840114

 

[NeoZ]

Wait, so the normal input for JC Shines is to jump with the control stick? That explains why JC shining is impossible for me.

I've always been faster at JCing with the control stick, that's why I do it like that.
A lot of people do it as fast, if not faster, using the jump buttons, so you can do it whichever way feels more comfortable to you.

 

[Dingding123]

Friendly fire is fine as it is. The fun in Friendly Fire is that you have to actively work with your teamste and be mind*** of where he is. If you're good, you should not hit him much.

Thank you for reading the full post before responding. Good gravy.

Anyhoo, I totally agree that friendly fire is fine as it is, but tweaking it a bit can make it much more than just fine and make 2v2's not only more fun but truly, entirely different beasts than 1v1's, even moreso than they are already.

To further explain my reasoning behind why friendly fire deserves a few tweaks, I'll paint a scenario for anyone curious to read it which will compare playstyle with current Friendly Fire and FF + my ideas for tweaking (halved damage + KB + hitstun from melee attacks from teammates; projectiles don't hit teammates unless they are in the middle of attacking or falling after an airdodge or an upB upon contact with the projectile).

I've continually played plenty of Melee over the past 7 years, and have watched many, many 1v1's and 2v2's from Melee tournaments. I've also been told that I'm a pretty good writer. I feel that this is worth noting, considering I wouldn't want to read a crappy scenario that spawned from some angry teenager who plays mostly FPS games on the 360 either.

Sorry, but either bear with the length of this post or ignore and do not comment upon it, for this won't be short and there's no TL;DR.

Project: M 2v2 Tournament Match
Link and Ike vs. Falcon and Fox, Final Destination
Last Stock, mid %'s:
Everyone's positions is the same as the order of their names as shown above.


Friendly Fire:

Link full-hops and Nairs over Ike to protect him and himself from aerial attacks, and DI's backwards behind Ike as he is landing. Ike sits still, blocking. Falcon full-hops and fastfalls to scare the other team from the option of approaching, as Fox stays back and attempts to fire well-placed SH lasers under his teammate.

Falcon jumps over Ike and into a FF'ing Link and knees him. Link blocks it in time and is pushed back from hitstun. Ike uses SHNair towards Fox to keep him from interfering, but Fox continues to SHlaser him.
Falcon runs back over to Ike and grabs him from behind while he is running towards Fox. Link SH's towards Ike and winds up a boomerang. Fox starts shooting grounded lasers at Ike.

Falcon pummels Ike once, then throws him backwards towards Link. Link throws his boomerang which collides into Ike. Fox stops shooting lasers after 3 shots, runs past Falcon and Uair's Ike. Ike is KO'ed.

Link then has a long 1v1 against the Fox as Falcon sits back and waits for an opportunity to attack without hitting his teammate.

Summary:
Link could not use projectiles if Ike was in front of him because of the risk of hitting him, and in order to allow Link to help him accomplish something Ike stays blocking in hopes of either grabbing, dodging or blocking Falcon and Fox's many approaches towards him or Falcon running into Link's Nair. Falcon and Fox safely overlooked any sort of "team synergy" Link and Ike tried to have and separated and overwelmed them with the raw speed and power of their aerial melee attacks. Fox and Falcon (especially Fox) are often picked for 2v2's in Melee tournaments for this very reasoning.


Friendly Fire Tweaked:

Link SH's as he winds up his boomerang and prepares to throw it downwards as Ike SHNairs in anticipation of Falcon's SH shenanigans. The SHNair catches Falcon in the middle of him preparing to Dair. Fox stays put, attempting to fire well-placed SH and grounded lasers.

Ike L-cancels and blocks when he hits the ground, so Link's 'rang through Ike's feet and then bounces off the ground and hits the Falcon as he is still in hitstun. Fox starts running forward, noticing that Falcon's the center of attention at the moment.

Fox runs past Ike who dodges and up to Link who anticipates the approach and uses his grounded UpB, which Fox blocks and follows up with a WD -> Usmash. Link is not KO'd, but sent flying upwards. Noticing that Falcon is still in hitstun, Ike tries to finish him off with a full-hop Fair OOS, but to no avail; Falcon DI's away from Ike after being hit by the boomerang just enough to avoid the follow-up, and is welcomed to the ground with an Ftilt which he techrolls through. Falcon is then behind the Ike as he is attacking, and turns and grabs him.

Falcon does a couple pummel attacks as Fox fires a volley of grounded lasers through Falcon and into Ike. Falcon then throws Ike backwards towards Fox, who stops firing lasers, reacts to Ike's DI and Usmashes him off the stage, getting a KO. Link FF's towards the Falcon after predicting Ike being thrown towards Fox and hits him with a Dair during the end of his throw animation, also KO'ing him.

The remaining Fox on the far-left portion and Link in the middle-right portion of the stage are left alone to dish it out in a heated 1v1.

Summary:
Link's projectiles could be and were safely used as Ike was in front of him for protection and exploiting openings. Thus, Ike was given many more safe options for blocking, grabbing, approaching and attacking. Falcon and Fox's tactics of dividing and conquering thus become unorthodox in comparison, but still remained viable, even though they required tradeoffs with the other team to work. Do note that Falcon was against throwing Ike upwards to collide with Link because neither of them would die, even if Ike was hit by the incoming Dair from Link, thank's to 1/2 damage, KB + Hitstun.

TL;DR(okay, I lied but NODRAWNOUTSCENARIO4U)
Notable changes From normal FF to FF + Tweaking:

-Projectiles are viable in many more situations, and thus so are characters with projectiles
-two separate 1v1's on larger stages and chaotic close-combat on smaller ones is less effective for both teams than a melee character with mid- to long-range support.
-2v1 scenarios will be much less clumsy and much more in favor for the team of 2
-Team synergy will be able to be implemented well in many ways more than just the Blitzkrieg team (Fox + Falcon).

Well, there you have it. Comment, criticize, etc. GoGoGo~

EDIT: ...oh, so FF is out of yall's scope and can't be tampered with?

Well then..... :V

 

[BinAly]

I've always been faster at JCing with the control stick, that's why I do it like that.
A lot of people do it as fast, if not faster, using the jump buttons, so you can do it whichever way feels more comfortable to you.

I'm using the 'X' button, always did that way. Usually, you can get used to placing your thumb on the two buttons at once, of maximum fastness.

I might be tilting the stick too early, gonna look into that. Thanks

 

[jahkzheng]

Falco is basically Fox, with slightly different physics.

Lucario and Mewtwo just have 2 things in common.
1. Good rolls
2. Large circle projectile

Otherwise nothing is identical. I mean, Mewtwo has almost no range and Lucario is the epitome of it.

An old post but...

Imo, if Mewtwo is ever done, he should have appropriate range. I know I've discussed Mewtwo ideas in the past, but I'm not gonna dig that all up. In any case, Mewtwo should still be as big and as he was and nearly as floaty as he was, if not the same. But should be buffed with more range on his moves and a safer or altered side B/down B that could be used to start combos/strings more reliably. Even just a greater grab range would make him quite scary.

 

[Archangel]

An old post but...

Imo, if Mewtwo is ever done, he should have appropriate range. I know I've discussed Mewtwo ideas in the past, but I'm not gonna dig that all up. In any case, Mewtwo should still be as big and as he was and nearly as floaty as he was, if not the same. But should be buffed with more range on his moves and a safer or altered side B/down B that could be used to start combos/strings more reliably. Even just a greater grab range would make him quite scary.

I think Mew2 should have a long grab range. Psychic grab range like Marths or slightly longer...that would ****!

 

[IYM!]

Mewtwo need:

A longer range grab
More Kill power
More resistance
A faster Dair
and a Side B than reflect "real" projectiles

 

[Vigilante]

To be fair, friendly fire modifications that people are talking about seem to just be stuff to make it more Newbie friendly. I don't really care much for it. The current friendly fire works just as well, and if anything, encourages not using the other as a meat shield.

 

[The_Guide]

I know that this isn't likely to happen, but could you guys put "Hey, Listen!!!!!" over Link's side taunt? Think of the children taunt canceling shenanigans.

A man can dream.

 

[Onomanic]

I know that this isn't likely to happen, but could you guys put "Hey, Listen!!!!!" over Link's side taunt? Think of the children taunt canceling shenanigans.

A man can dream.

I second that notion. Link's taunt cancel is kinda lame as it is.

 

[Slashy]

Mewtwo need:

A longer range grab
More Kill power
More resistance
A faster Dair
and a Side B than reflect "real" projectiles

Mewtwo's confusion should cause tripping, that would make more sense than spinning around.

 

[Dingding123]

He's not saying eliminate friendly fire, he's just talking about nerfing it. Either way, I'm strongly against changing the current system.

The key aspect to 2v2, obviously, is the team chemistry between the teammates. If it's a 2v1, both players should be covering the remaining opponent's options by sandwiching them, not switching in 1v1s. Even if you and your teammate are on the same side as the opponent, the closest person can go for a grab and either hold them there for the other person or set up traps by forcing them to tech. Another basic way is to just wait for your opponent to hit your partner and then rush in with an attack of your own during the cool-down of your opponent's attack.

I don't see how this would give a "handicap to the minority" considering that you're downplaying the risks of sloppy gameplay (i.e. having your hitboxes come in contact with your partner). I think it would make it even harder for the person without a teammate; since projectiles don't hit your ally if they're running (without an active hitbox), one person can just run in front of a Falco that's short-hopping lasers at the opponent. If the opponent jumps, the running ally can jump after them; if they shield or spot-dodge, the running ally gets a grab. This also decreases the incentive to properly space melee attacks to hit a grabbed opponent; if the attack has halved knockback and damage, there's very little reason not to hit both your partner and opponent unless your partner is at very high percents. In addition, according to your second case for projectiles, your partner cannot get hit by a projectile if they are simply grabbing an opponent but not doing grab attack; there would be absolutely no reason not to build up damage with projectiles (that don't have splash hitboxes) and then hit both players with a powerful attack (unless the projectile is sufficiently strong enough like Samus' charge beam or Lucario's Aura Sphere).

Oh, trust me, I know sloppy gameplay all too well. Some of my friends make me cringe when I watch them play. I also know 2v1 techchases, follow-ups and covering. Hitting your partner can be done simply by misreading what he was doing. Also, building up damage with projectiles on a grabbed opponent seems pretty fair, no?

 

[MonkUnit]

As stated before. We're not going to touch Friendly Fire. We never said we could or could not mess with it at all. It's fine as is.

/discussion

 

[Zef]

So, I have a few questions regarding recent breakthroughs.
Will Landing Detection be inside the characters .pac file and will DI be a code or is it something bigger than that?