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Project M Social Thread

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I'd agree Zelda is underwhelming in her ability to camp and force bad approaches or to put people in unfavorable positions.

It would be incredible if Zelda could choose between using both the instant explosion from vBrawl/Melee and the delayed Din's Fire. That'd be potent as hell.

I'd say Snake has this inability to camp and pressure to a degree as well, but Snake can get out of pressure by using his nice dash attack. Maybe if he proves underwhelming in balance phase, somebody could revamp his side-b like make it a gas cartridge pistol that shoots a tranquilizer dart or something.


What is the new technique with Nayru's Love?

Can I get a description in more detail of it?
 

MonkUnit

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What is the new technique with Nayru's Love?

Can I get a description in more detail of it?
Nayru's Love has a ground cancel, meaning that if you land on the ground with the aerial Nayru's Love at the right time(near the end of the move) you go straight to wait1. This helps in combos so you can do NL -> dash attack or something. :p

EDIT: @Cory, we can't make din's fire be like that. We can't make tilt sideB be vBrawl and smash sideB be PM sideB.
 

Vigilante

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Guys, you do realize that defense does not necessarily mean camping, right? A defensive game can also be a counter game. One that capitalizes on punishing hasty approaches.
 

CORY

wut
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Oh, either way, I don't think that is possible. I am not a coder but I do know of some limitations lol. I think that the smash vs tilt is something that is controlled by samus' .rel file?
i'm just being goofy, anyway. though snake basically having a hado as overb would be neat.
 
D

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Nayru's Love has a ground cancel, meaning that if you land on the ground with the aerial Nayru's Love at the right time(near the end of the move) you go straight to wait1. This helps in combos so you can do NL -> dash attack or something. :p
Seems situational because Nayru's make her extremely floaty. Maybe she can use it to land on platforms like shines.

So a short hop to Nayru's to dash attack or some other follow up?

Sounds kinda good to stop aerial approaches and punish in theory. Fast characters may still be able to get an opening, but I gotta try it.

If you could fastfall out of Nayru's, holy crap.
 

Thunderhorse+

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Dhalsim from Street Fighter is a good defensive character. Granted, he sucks at dealing with pressure.
That is a facet of having a good overall defense. A good defensive character will not only have ways to force approaches and punish mistakes, but they're also marked by their ability to deal with pressure and reset their position to a neutral or advantageous position. Characters with only one of those aspects have a decent defense game; characters with all of them are truly great. For example, Hazama from BlazBlue is extremely good at zoning and forcing approaches with his Ouroboros chains, but once you get in up close he has no ways to relieve pressure other than basic defensive mechanics or having to burn half his meter. He is not, in my mind, a truly great defensive character. Nu on the other hand can zone as well as Hazama with her swords, but also has Act Parser, which is not only a DP but can wallbounce in order to start combos (putting her from a potentially disadvantageous position into an advantageous one). If we want to go with your Street Fighter example, Sagat can zone extremely well with his Tiger Shots but unlike Dhalsim he has Tiger Uppercut, and we all know what kind of an advantageous position you can be when you hit with that (EX. cancel -> Ultra).

To tie it all back in, Zelda's ability to get out of pressure is actually pretty amazing. Now I know you've been going on about her shield grab sucking. And your right, it's still pretty donkey balls. But there's more to relieving pressure out of shield (or out of anywhere for that matter) than just shield grabbing. Now, pardon me for being presumptuous, but you strike me as an avid Brawl player by virtue of you liking BBrawl the best out of the mods. And unlike most people will tell you here, that's fine. There's no problem with that. I was an avid Brawl player myself once upon a time. But as a Brawl player, it also makes sense that you don't value anything more than shield grabs when you're getting pressured, cause really what else do you need when shield stun is so low? Maybe an UpB peppered in there if you're a Metaknight or Marth, but that's about it. So allow me to drop some knowledge.

As others in this thread has mentioned, neutral B is good. Really good. And not even just OoS. It's extremely useful for breaking combos and is almost as much of a "get out of combo for free" card as Luigi's nair. You can even do it far in advance from when you need to and it'll work due to its long invulnerability time. UpB I haven't tested myself, but in theory it should be very good so long as the hitbox comes out at a decent time. And I've played Ryoko enough times to know that Bair and Fair OoS is a deadly way to relieve pressure. They are deceptively quick and getting hit by one of those will definitely put the aggressor in a disadvantageous position (read: down a stock). Know what else is good for resetting positions? Din' Fire. Yep, I know you've been on a tirade about this, saying that it' much more useful for approaching than defending. And you're right in the sense that Zelda can approach with it - she would have exactly 0 approach game without it. But if you plant a Din's in front of you ahead of time and you get grabbed, what's going to happen? The Dins will explode and either the grab is broken or the opponent cannot follow up...in both cases resetting you from a disadvantageous position to a neutral position.

Being able to break immediate pressure and reset positions is almost as important to good defensive play as being able to zone and throw around projectiles. Zelda has a ton of those options and they should not be neglected or marginalized.
 

Vigilante

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Although I knew most of what you said, Thunderhorse, I learned a few things, and I'll try to apply them. Thanks for the in depth post, even if it wasn't directed at me.
 

shanus

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a2z's semantics means nothing. Fact of the matter is end of story, most characters WILL approach Zelda due to dins, as if you don't your inherently adding risk to be hit by dins. If you try and camp her with projectiles, GC naryu's is a safe counter. This in itself is defensive, case closed.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Let me make something really clear here: When we say everyone's hitboxes match Melee, they match Melee there's no ifs, ands, or buts unless the animation itself is hindering that experience for you (which is usually aesthetic) or the animation completely changes how the hitboxes work (like Marth's moves as we said did need animation changes to match his hitboxes, and not even his are completely accurate yet).
Ganondorf's Up Smash... so the animation must be throwing me off, or...?
 

GPDP

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I must be the only one who doesn't get thrown off by animations. Guess that must be because I only put hundreds of hours into Melee as opposed to thousands.
 

Revven

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I was just checking because you said:
Doesn't really apply to Ganondorf's Usmash as it's pretty much a perfect animation afaik. The only reason you'd be thrown off by it animation wise would be because of Brawl's model. Otherwise, the hitboxes and timings match perfectly, as I recall Magus420 even went through it himself to make sure.
 

Xebenkeck

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Idon't think i ever got this answered, but you guys used parts of docs f-air for mario, did you guys use anything else of doc's? Like his nair or something, cause doc by all means was superior to mario. The reason i mention nair is because docs was unique in that it got stronger the longer it was out, oppose to most sex kicks which diminish in strength the longer their out. Or was everything else marios.
 

Strong Badam

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a lot of Doc stuff was given to Mario. nair is one of the things that wasn't, though.
here's what's docs
dair
bair
part of fair
dsmash
usmash
ftilt
 

GP&B

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Beyond Doc-related additions, I do believe Mario's FSmash was made stronger and Fireballs have a higher arc and movement speed, right?
 

Master WGS

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What about Mario's fair? I notice it doesn't always spike anymore...

Also, weird thing - Every so often (usually on 2v2s) it won't let me record replays. It's kinda uncommon, but it happened a few times to my friends and I last night. Question mark?
 

Supreme Dirt

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What about Mario's fair? I notice it doesn't always spike anymore...

Also, weird thing - Every so often (usually on 2v2s) it won't let me record replays. It's kinda uncommon, but it happened a few times to my friends and I last night. Question mark?
At first it's doc as he moves his fist outwards.

Then as he brings it down, it's Mario's spike.


Also, after a certain amount of inputs Brawl just simply stops recording inputs, so there's no point in the infinite replay code allowing you to record them.
 

kaizo13

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i played alot of Mario in Melee (not so much Doc)........i understand Doc may have a handful of superior aspects, but that's alot of Doc moves on Mario:M

but about the fireballs.....yes the pill arc ***** in terms of being able to hit with it. but it also lost the ability to be able to intercept quickly at long distances. (which was my main use) you also get almost no distance trying to offstage gimp, since pill arc relies on having to bounce for distance.

i mean looks at short hop fireballs in melee, you could keep a safe distance and still be able to connect a hit since mario keeps a decent amount of momentum out of jumps. i could go into a list of why i personally prefer mario fireballs but

idk maybe a nice medium would satisfy both Mario and Doc players?
 

Scufo

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Maybe I'm just horribly misinformed but was the spike on Mario's fair ever useful?

Doc's just seems straight up superior.

edit: and by spike I mean meteor. y'know.
 

IYM!

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a lot of Doc stuff was given to Mario. nair is one of the things that wasn't, though.
here's what's docs
dair
bair
part of fair
dsmash
usmash
ftilt
Usmash of Doc Mario?, but Mario'sUsmash is stronger :ohwell:.

Maybe I'm just horribly misinformed but was the spike on Mario's fair ever useful?

Doc's just seems straight up superior.

edit: and by spike I mean meteor. y'know.
i am agree, Marios Fair are predictable if both moves would a meteor, i mean, you can prepare yourself to do a meteor cancel.

Doc Fair is stronger an hit hard at all the moment, give that move a meteor part dont is agood idea imo.

No, pills are 1000x more useful than Mario's fireballs.
pills are better, its zig-zag trayectory create a mini wall, than is harder to pass throug,

maybe will be a good idea keep the Doc's pills trayectory and the Fireballs range (Fireballs can cover more horizontal distance than pills)
 

Sneak8288

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Lol this thread kills me, i don't understand how most people have never played this game anywhere close to high level and or have explored fully all of the options for multiple situations or even have the creativity to create new techniques and have the nerve to complain about certain moves. Like the ganon arguement lmfao. Obviously shows how bad a certain person using ganon must be at the game because ganon has plenty of tools to kill spacies easily. I wish people will get good and find ways around things instead of crying for change. Snakes side-b is fine also and its super good vs any recovery that comes from below stage. The next time someone wants to post about something needing to be changed or buffed or made better or worse, take a moment and tap into the creative side of your brain and find a use for it or try to find a way around something you can't overcome. Please leave the salt out of your opinion of character development
 

GHNeko

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Sneak is the best poster on this page and for the next 10 pages (40ppp)


I say the next 10 pages, because no one (other than Magus, Dant, or Shanus, maybe PW) will say something that will top how **** Sneak's post is.


Get better ******s.
 
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