Project M Social Thread

[BAD]

Evidence plz, how do you know?

In Brawl, Wario is top tier. I am sure you guys didn't need to give Wario a whole new moveset to make him viable in Melee. in Brawl, Wario is very defensive and maybe that is why you guys changed him so much? If so, I think that is kind of biased how you guys try to make everyone in the game offensive without having defensive characters.

 

[ds22]

In Brawl, Wario is top tier. I am sure you guys didn't need to give Wario a whole new moveset to make him viable in Melee. in Brawl, Wario is very defensive and maybe that is why you guys changed him so much? If so, I think that is kind of biased how you guys try to make everyone in the game offensive without having defensive characters.

*facepalm*

 

[Zef]

o lawd this thread lol

 

[stingers]

BAD, I agree with a lot of what you said. The developers are ripping out the soul of Smash by removing all of these little things that make the game what it is. Sometimes, giving the player too much control over things limits what they can effectively do, because they're too busy keeping track of everything to act on it. Misfires every 5th side B sounds cool in theory, but in practice it would just get in the way as players struggle to figure out whether it was their 3rd or 4th side B they just used and whether or not it's safe to go for their cool Side B gimmick combos that this was supposed to encourage.

This project DOES have real double standards and the things they change, and everyone acknowledges that. For example, leaving in Luigi's dj -> down b rise, but removing GaW's Parachute. Both characters had lackluster recoveries in melee and would have both benefitted from the Brawl buffs they received, but one was taken away and one was kept. Why? Who knows. Simple developer bias, possibly resulting from lack of clear direction from those in charge, or no actual mission statement existing (Is it Melee 2.0? The OP itself says contrasting things).

The reality of it is, the developers are making it up as they go along as much as the Brawl+ team did (not a surprise as many of the same developers occupy both teams), but this team just took a step in the right direction by not giving out copies to the public every time they did it. Lack of transparency is a double-edged sword however, as it allows for contradictions to go unchecked due to the bias of the developing team and the cult following from most posters in this thread. Those that disagree with what changes they are making are less likely to check the thread for the still WIP game, a problem that would be avoided with public playtesting. Similarly, those that stick around through it are more likely to respond positively to whatever changes they see. That's simply the dangers of closed testing like this, and in such cases (as you would see from professional development teams), it is in the best interests of the developers to create a product for the masses, not themselves.

Sadly, makeshift teams filled with hobbyists working on a Wii game hack aren't really ready to treat their creations with professionalism quite yet. This is what leads to them treating all criticisms so personally (why do you think they label everyone who disagrees with them as a troll)? Their effort is certainly respectable however, nobody is denying that. It's simply a mix of lack of experience, shortsightedness, and bias from the developers that led to what we have now. Whether or not it'll all work out in the end, remains to be seen.

 

[The King Of Hearts]

<3333 King of Hearts. The exact same kind of response I would have made before I decided to just be a troll.

Ah to bad troll is a troll.... Ignores logic and goes on ranting. Warning people... it will feed off your negative comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg

If you dont like the changes troll then change the characters yourself or place in a PSA. It wont be tournament legal but it will give you comfort <3

 

[NinjaFoxX]

cant call it Project M forever now can we?.

/useless

anywho, lool personal prefrence, can ness/lucas jump as high as yoshi so their recoveries wont suck?
they should make waveshining easier, just so people can pick up fox better
Dedede should gets jiggz moveset.

8===============D

 

[Shell]

BAD, I agree with a lot of what you said. The developers are ripping out the soul of Smash by removing all of these little things that make the game what it is. Sometimes, giving the player too much control over things limits what they can effectively do, because they're too busy keeping track of everything to act on it. Misfires every 5th side B sounds cool in theory, but in practice it would just get in the way as players struggle to figure out whether it was their 3rd or 4th side B they just used and whether or not it's safe to go for their cool Side B gimmick combos that this was supposed to encourage.

If we wanted to, this would be solved very easily -- on the 4th side-b use, show a small flash, while on the 5th use you get the full green overlay and large flash. Or you could make it a flash that scales evenly from rotations 1-4, increasing in size or something. Not hard to do.

I left this out right now since I thought it diminished the new emphasis on player skill in using Side-B at the correct time and keeping track of where you are in the rotation. But it that's what everyone wanted, it could be done.

And I wouldn't say that side-b kills are gimmicky by any standard.

This project DOES have real double standards and the things they change, and everyone acknowledges that. For example, leaving in Luigi's dj -> down b rise, but removing GaW's Parachute. Both characters had lackluster recoveries in melee and would have both benefitted from the Brawl buffs they received, but one was taken away and one was kept. Why? Who knows. Simple developer bias, possibly resulting from lack of clear direction from those in charge, or no actual mission statement existing (Is it Melee 2.0? The OP itself says contrasting things).

I would like to point out that we've kept GW's ability to act out of his Up-B, which is still a significant recovery buff.

Luigi hasn't received nearly as much attention as GW yet, so there's still a chance that Down-B could be tweaked. As it is, though, while both characters did have mediocre recoveries in Melee, the rest of the character aspects are pretty different, so I don't know that you can compare apples directly to oranges like that.

The reality of it is, the developers are making it up as they go along as much as the Brawl+ team did (not a surprise as many of the same developers occupy both teams), but this team just took a step in the right direction by not giving out copies to the public every time they did it. Lack of transparency is a double-edged sword however, as it allows for contradictions to go unchecked due to the bias of the developing team and the cult following from most posters in this thread. Those that disagree with what changes they are making are less likely to check the thread for the still WIP game, a problem that would be avoided with public playtesting. Similarly, those that stick around through it are more likely to respond positively to whatever changes they see. That's simply the dangers of closed testing like this, and in such cases (as you would see from professional development teams), it is in the best interests of the developers to create a product for the masses, not themselves.

Sadly, makeshift teams filled with hobbyists working on a Wii game hack aren't really ready to treat their creations with professionalism quite yet. This is what leads to them treating all criticisms so personally (why do you think they label everyone who disagrees with them as a troll)? Their effort is certainly respectable however, nobody is denying that. It's simply a mix of lack of experience, shortsightedness, and bias from the developers that led to what we have now. Whether or not it'll all work out in the end, remains to be seen.

I don't think the comparison to the B+ development is fair at all. B+ had at least 2-3 identity crises, whereas we've had a much more consistent vision over the last year. Internal bias in any team larger than an individual is inevitable, but we do a decent enough job at reviewing each others work to balance out bias and listening to the community.

Stingers, it's obvious from the very loaded manner in which you describe our cumulative work as 'what we have now' that you're dissatisfied with the project. Perhaps this isn't the project for you.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sounds like good plans to me.

BTW, Pichu was confirmed to be a joke character a while ago.

Evidence, please?

Objection!

Every claim needs an evidence!

btw, can you show me the source?

^This^.

I can't seem to find that article where he states that Pichu is a joke character.....

Then it doesn't exist.

I should note that in Pichu's trophy it says that he is better suited to handicap matches.

You may INTERPRET this as saying Pichu is an intentionally bad (joke) character, but it is most likely referring to the actual Handicap option setting, which strengthens characters if they are at high percent.

How is Mewtwo a joke character if Pichu is? I can kind of see Roy, seeing as he is a clone, but Mewtwo? Besides being low tier there's nothing that makes him a joke character.

I didn't call Roy/Mewtwo joke characters, I called them "jokes of a character". At high level play, Mewtwo, Roy and Pichu are all almost equally terrible, yet for some reason Pichu is considered un-salvageably bad, while Roy and Mewtwo can just be buffed to make fine inclusions.

 

[shanus]

BAD, I agree with a lot of what you said. The developers are ripping out the soul of Smash by removing all of these little things that make the game what it is. Sometimes, giving the player too much control over things limits what they can effectively do, because they're too busy keeping track of everything to act on it. Misfires every 5th side B sounds cool in theory, but in practice it would just get in the way as players struggle to figure out whether it was their 3rd or 4th side B they just used and whether or not it's safe to go for their cool Side B gimmick combos that this was supposed to encourage.

This project DOES have real double standards and the things they change, and everyone acknowledges that. For example, leaving in Luigi's dj -> down b rise, but removing GaW's Parachute. Both characters had lackluster recoveries in melee and would have both benefitted from the Brawl buffs they received, but one was taken away and one was kept. Why? Who knows. Simple developer bias, possibly resulting from lack of clear direction from those in charge, or no actual mission statement existing (Is it Melee 2.0? The OP itself says contrasting things).

The reality of it is, the developers are making it up as they go along as much as the Brawl+ team did (not a surprise as many of the same developers occupy both teams), but this team just took a step in the right direction by not giving out copies to the public every time they did it. Lack of transparency is a double-edged sword however, as it allows for contradictions to go unchecked due to the bias of the developing team and the cult following from most posters in this thread. Those that disagree with what changes they are making are less likely to check the thread for the still WIP game, a problem that would be avoided with public playtesting. Similarly, those that stick around through it are more likely to respond positively to whatever changes they see. That's simply the dangers of closed testing like this, and in such cases (as you would see from professional development teams), it is in the best interests of the developers to create a product for the masses, not themselves.

Sadly, makeshift teams filled with hobbyists working on a Wii game hack aren't really ready to treat their creations with professionalism quite yet. This is what leads to them treating all criticisms so personally (why do you think they label everyone who disagrees with them as a troll)? Their effort is certainly respectable however, nobody is denying that. It's simply a mix of lack of experience, shortsightedness, and bias from the developers that led to what we have now. Whether or not it'll all work out in the end, remains to be seen.

This was a pretty surprising post, so I feel I need to respond:

Regarding your contrasting example of luigi to GaW. You know as well as I know that the buffs GaW received in transition to PM far outweigh Luigi's, partly because GaW's performance flaws were significantly more impactful in melee, as by the additional fact that GaW has been worked on significantly more in our current timeline (luigi needs work still).

To detail examples:
- Giving GaW the ability to L-cancel altogether completely shifts his position on the melee tier list in that it rejiggers approach options, combo options, shield pressure options, etc in favor of his melee counterpart
- He received a significantly improved shield size to model ratio.
- Received all-around improvements to most aerials and smashes, return of his dtilt among multiple other improvements.
- Received a nerf to his brawl recovery (but buff to his melee version)

Now I ask you: Does GaW also need an insane recovery (that also had invuln, a good disjointed hitbox, and huge horizontal potential)? No way. His range, disjointedness, ability to combo, and overall pressure (and antipressure) game is so vastly improved it was pretty damn stupid to see what nair could do in combination with his upB chute (and I have first hand experience with these early builds, whereas I know you do not).

I fail to see how altering the green missile is at all translatable argument given the breadth of changes to GaW's which supports the removal of his upB chute, aside from the fact that I believe you yourself played GaW and ROB in brawl and have significant bias yourself (maybe its you who has the bias in this scenario?).


Now regarding the rest of your reply criticizing our team:

Can you have done what we have accomplished? Obviously we have our flaws (a few short-tempered posters to add), but the team puts in significant hours to turn out what is a pretty damn good product. There will be obvious sample bias regarding character design, but how can there be no design bias when trying to create a game? The direction (or mission statement) you choose to begin with is biases how characters should be played, so I fail to see how we can at all take a completely unbiased approach to Project M unless we directly translated every feature and character at a 1:1 ratio from melee. This would ignore balance, and leave low tiers as just that, low tiers.

So, is your end suggestion that we remove any form of creativity from our final product? Do you want for a clone of melee exactly with completely unaltered brawl characters or melee characters?

I doubt it.

I'd like to see your suggestions on how to avoid bias in character development and design, because even the best companies in the business (i.e. Blizzard) have apparent issues even avoiding it in their product (see MMM balance for a while in SC2). Furthermore, with your suggestions, I challenge you to do a better job than we have now. Build your own team and do this from scratch, and come to me a year from now. If not, I would put a foot in my mouth and call it a day.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I just wasted my whole morning delving through this thread…
It looks like ya'll are now talking about Luigi's Misfire. Whatever you plan to do, please make the explosion as big as it is in Melee. In Brawl, I often can't even tell whether he did it or not.

 

[stingers]

I don't think the comparison to the B+ development is fair at all. B+ had at least 2-3 identity crises, whereas we've had a much more consistent vision over the last year.

What is the consistent vision that you've had over the last year?

Stingers, it's obvious from the very loaded manner in which you describe our cumulative work as 'what we have now' that you're dissatisfied with the project. Perhaps this isn't the project for you.

This is basically calling me a troll. If you can't handle dissenting opinions, then that's your own problem. You shouldn't assume things about things I haven't said anything about based on them.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

BAD, I agree with a lot of what you said. The developers are ripping out the soul of Smash by removing all of these little things that make the game what it is. Sometimes, giving the player too much control over things limits what they can effectively do, because they're too busy keeping track of everything to act on it. Misfires every 5th side B sounds cool in theory, but in practice it would just get in the way as players struggle to figure out whether it was their 3rd or 4th side B they just used and whether or not it's safe to go for their cool Side B gimmick combos that this was supposed to encourage.

This project DOES have real double standards and the things they change, and everyone acknowledges that. For example, leaving in Luigi's dj -> down b rise, but removing GaW's Parachute. Both characters had lackluster recoveries in melee and would have both benefitted from the Brawl buffs they received, but one was taken away and one was kept. Why? Who knows. Simple developer bias, possibly resulting from lack of clear direction from those in charge, or no actual mission statement existing (Is it Melee 2.0? The OP itself says contrasting things).

The reality of it is, the developers are making it up as they go along as much as the Brawl+ team did (not a surprise as many of the same developers occupy both teams), but this team just took a step in the right direction by not giving out copies to the public every time they did it. Lack of transparency is a double-edged sword however, as it allows for contradictions to go unchecked due to the bias of the developing team and the cult following from most posters in this thread. Those that disagree with what changes they are making are less likely to check the thread for the still WIP game, a problem that would be avoided with public playtesting. Similarly, those that stick around through it are more likely to respond positively to whatever changes they see. That's simply the dangers of closed testing like this, and in such cases (as you would see from professional development teams), it is in the best interests of the developers to create a product for the masses, not themselves.

Sadly, makeshift teams filled with hobbyists working on a Wii game hack aren't really ready to treat their creations with professionalism quite yet. This is what leads to them treating all criticisms so personally (why do you think they label everyone who disagrees with them as a troll)? Their effort is certainly respectable however, nobody is denying that. It's simply a mix of lack of experience, shortsightedness, and bias from the developers that led to what we have now. Whether or not it'll all work out in the end, remains to be seen.

Thank you for your interest in Project M.

Because we are a conglomerate of many different members from many diverse backgrounds, your statement about ripping the 'soul' out of Smash Brothers cannot be addressed at this time. The concept of a soul, while fascinating, is very subjective in nature and is out of the scope of what we intend to do with Project M-- philosophers and scientists throughout history have debated the subject extensively, to this day there are debates as to whether or not animals, plants or even humans possess a soul; it would be erroneous to try to connect such a abstract idea to our video game mod. Because we at the Project M team wish to stay a secular establishment, we cannot properly gauge and report on the amount of soul we've removed from Smash Brothers.

If you are interested in learning more about differing views of what comprises a 'soul', we would recommend reading the works of Rene Descartes, Aristotle or consulting your local religious facility.

 

[Sora-kun]

I'm ashamed of myself for even responding..

That's because you take the majority of your fans decisions and implement them in the game. If everybody complained how you changed Falco's DownB to the one in Melee, even you developers would change it due to your fans.

Think about, no one would play your game if you didn't take the majority of your fans requests since this is after all, a fan made game.

Like hell they would. Wtf are you talking about?

In Brawl, Wario is top tier. I am sure you guys didn't need to give Wario a whole new moveset to make him viable in Melee. in Brawl, Wario is very defensive and maybe that is why you guys changed him so much? If so, I think that is kind of biased how you guys try to make everyone in the game offensive without having defensive characters.

So..... you propose they keep a character that won by air camping and timing people out the same to make the game more fun and fast paced?... Are you serious? I'm more ashamed for even responding to this now.

Go play Brawl+ dude.

Neither was your post.

I understand the bigger changes being made to turn Brawl into a Melee clone. Changing randomness of moves is unnecessary however, which is what I am trying to point out.

Also, WTF is up with you people thinking I want to change the direction of this project. I never posted:

"I WANT THIS **** CHANGED NOW!!!! CHANGE THIS **** OR I WILL NOT PLAY!!! I DEMAND IT!!!!"

All I did was post a complaint and you people went ape-**** and think I want to take control of this project. Let's get some things straight since you people like to assume things about me:

1. I am not trying to "change" or "demand" that you make this game the way I want it.
2. I was only making a complaint out of concern that you guys were changing some characters that didn't need to be changed (Wario).


Seriously, you guys get upset like I insulted your religion or ***** your family. Next time I won't post any complaints I have about your game since you guys are incapable of handling criticism.

Uh.. so now after making ludicrous claims and us responding to you like you're a troll you think we're just picking on you then? Amazing.

Btw, you DID twist the FAQ.
It says
"is Brawl+ melee 2.0?
No."


Last I checked this wasn't Brawl+.
They're keeping top tiers the way they were in melee because they worked. They were good in Melee and they want the rest of the characters to be at their level. So why the hell would they take some of the horrible Brawl movesets and try to get them back up to how they were in Melee? It wouldn't accomplish much more than likely.


And Falco's Brawl reflector is **** <_<

-done with this-

 

[SothE700k]

This is basically calling me a troll. If you can't handle dissenting opinions, then that's your own problem. You shouldn't assume things about things I haven't said anything about based on them.

Uhm, that's just saying you shouldn't bother watching the project then because it's not in your tastes. Not calling you a troll.

 

[Zef]

are people really ****ing arguing barwl shine vs melee shine

 

[NinjaFoxX]

of course not, just one brawl scrub that is afraid of change and has no idea what hes talking about.

 

[FireBall Stars]

I predict at least more 5 or 6 pages of this discussion.

I may be wrong...

 

[BAD]

BAD, I agree with a lot of what you said. The developers are ripping out the soul of Smash by removing all of these little things that make the game what it is. Sometimes, giving the player too much control over things limits what they can effectively do, because they're too busy keeping track of everything to act on it. Misfires every 5th side B sounds cool in theory, but in practice it would just get in the way as players struggle to figure out whether it was their 3rd or 4th side B they just used and whether or not it's safe to go for their cool Side B gimmick combos that this was supposed to encourage.

This project DOES have real double standards and the things they change, and everyone acknowledges that. For example, leaving in Luigi's dj -> down b rise, but removing GaW's Parachute. Both characters had lackluster recoveries in melee and would have both benefitted from the Brawl buffs they received, but one was taken away and one was kept. Why? Who knows. Simple developer bias, possibly resulting from lack of clear direction from those in charge, or no actual mission statement existing (Is it Melee 2.0? The OP itself says contrasting things).

The reality of it is, the developers are making it up as they go along as much as the Brawl+ team did (not a surprise as many of the same developers occupy both teams), but this team just took a step in the right direction by not giving out copies to the public every time they did it. Lack of transparency is a double-edged sword however, as it allows for contradictions to go unchecked due to the bias of the developing team and the cult following from most posters in this thread. Those that disagree with what changes they are making are less likely to check the thread for the still WIP game, a problem that would be avoided with public playtesting. Similarly, those that stick around through it are more likely to respond positively to whatever changes they see. That's simply the dangers of closed testing like this, and in such cases (as you would see from professional development teams), it is in the best interests of the developers to create a product for the masses, not themselves.

Sadly, makeshift teams filled with hobbyists working on a Wii game hack aren't really ready to treat their creations with professionalism quite yet. This is what leads to them treating all criticisms so personally (why do you think they label everyone who disagrees with them as a troll)? Their effort is certainly respectable however, nobody is denying that. It's simply a mix of lack of experience, shortsightedness, and bias from the developers that led to what we have now. Whether or not it'll all work out in the end, remains to be seen.

THANK YOU!!! That's exactly what I am trying to point out.

 

[NxtGenFalco93]

Ill TRY to get this back on topic

I made a really detailed post ages ago about how to make Pichu viable as well, I'll try and dig it up...

EDIT: Here it is: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11511492&postcount=17946

i agreed with this being a new pichu and was gonna dig it up if they ever mentioned the clone engine doing better...

roy and mew2 are awful (just like pichu) at high levels, but no charecter (IMO) is beyond saving. and on the aspect of roy i think if he is made he should get the reverse tippers the old B+ roy used (changed to fit this tho)

and luigi getting a less random side b would be nice to see, but im against the flash cuz it would require some more thinking during the game to keep up with it...

also +1 to figuring out an official name for Project:M... i mean, i dont think it should still be called a 'project' when its finished. (Personally want the name to be ssb mild skirmish )

EDIT: lol at jiang that post made me laugh

 

[Darkshooter]

 

[stingers]

stuff

I did not play GaW in Brawl. I did play ROB however =] I don't think that has anything to do with this. Believe me, I am anything but biased when I discuss game design. I strive for balance, in all areas.

Also, if you think that current GaW is on the level of Melee top tiers (NOT in relation to GaW's matchup with them, but in relation to GaW's ability's vs. the cast), then you are severely mistaken =/

I honestly don't appreciate the jabs at my character though. It's quite disrespectful. Aren't you the project head? Lack of professionalism was one of my key points, and you just supported that fully. I think someone in your position should try and have a clearer head in regards to how they respond to others. Public relations is one of the most important, if not the most important aspects of a business. And what are businesses after? Success, monetary success that is, but success nonetheless. If you're after success, I suggest you follow the same policies.

Also, I give nothing but respect towards the development team, which I also said in my post, and you also made it out to be that I'm insulting them somehow? If you consider dissatisfaction with the work that you guys have done to be insulting, then you are ANOTHER prime example of the "inability to handle dissenting opinions" that I've been talking about for the past ~6 months. It's always been clear that it runs throughout the team, but, once again, the project head should try and keep a clearer head.

Now, if you want my ideas to avoid specific kinds of character bias, it would be to establish leaders for certain sections of the game and have meetings between the leaders to decide in what direction they should move. Leaders only. Leaders should be chosen on merit. This way, you have those who hold the clearest and the BEST ideas for balance, redesign, and any other areas you wish to cover collaborating on something that can truly be called a great product. Leaving it to the Link main to totally redesign Link, for example, will not end with the optimal product. This is NOT saying that he will be "biased" to the point of breaking the character, because I believe that certain types of people will genuinely try to balance their characters. The thing is, the "bias" they hold is in regards to their view of the character: it's limited. Also, I'm NOT saying that calling in "experts" of the character is a bad idea, on the contrary it's a very good one. Leaving them to their own devices, however, is not.

So if you actually wanted my opinion (lol), now you have it.

 

[BAD]

I'd like to see your suggestions on how to avoid bias in character development and design, because even the best companies in the business (i.e. Blizzard) have apparent issues even avoiding it in their product (see MMM balance for a while in SC2). Furthermore, with your suggestions, I challenge you to do a better job than we have now. Build your own team and do this from scratch, and come to me a year from now. If not, I would put a foot in my mouth and call it a day.

LOL, look at this dude. You developers are so unprofessional. My god. That's like sending a letter to Nintendo about a complaint you had with a game and them sending you back a letter telling you to put a foot in your mouth and STFU.

LOLOLOLOL/

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why are you guys arguing this anyway?

The game will turn out amazing even with any problems the development team may have.

And it's obvious they aren't going to change the way they've been doing things for a year now...

 

[Blarg I'm Dead]

In Brawl, Wario is top tier. I am sure you guys didn't need to give Wario a whole new moveset to make him viable in Melee. in Brawl, Wario is very defensive and maybe that is why you guys changed him so much? If so, I think that is kind of biased how you guys try to make everyone in the game offensive without having defensive characters.

You clearly don't have an idea of what you're talking about. The developers have said countless times that for the most part brawl characters won't fit well in a melee environment due to a variety of things.

They aren't trying to make a pure offensive game...

People call you a troll because you deny and ignore any logical arguments and if you didn't ignore or deny what was said you twist it into something they didn't say, much like a troll. You seem incapable of understanding even the most basic logic.

Thank you for your interest in Project M.

Because we are a conglomerate of many different members from many diverse backgrounds, your statement about ripping the 'soul' out of Smash Brothers cannot be addressed at this time. The concept of a soul, while fascinating, is very subjective in nature and is out of the scope of what we intend to do with Project M-- philosophers and scientists throughout history have debated the subject extensively, to this day there are debates as to whether or not animals, plants or even humans possess a soul; it would be erroneous to try to connect such a abstract idea to our video game mod. Because we at the Project M team wish to stay a secular establishment, we cannot properly gauge and report on the amount of soul we've removed from Smash Brothers.

If you are interested in learning more about differing views of what comprises a 'soul', we would recommend reading the works of Rene Descartes, Aristotle or consulting your local religious facility.

lols.

I'm ashamed of myself for even responding..

So..... you propose they have a character that won by air camping and timing people out the same to make the game more fun and fast paced?... Are you serious? I'm more ashamed for even responding to this now.

Uh.. so now after making ludicrous claims and us responding to you like you're a troll you think we're just picking on you then? Amazing.

Btw, you DID twist the FAQ.
It says
"is Brawl+ melee 2.0?
No."


Last I checked this wasn't Brawl+.
They're keeping top tiers the way they were in melee because they worked. They were good in Melee and they want the rest of the characters to be at their level. So why the hell would they take some of the horrible Brawl movesets and try to get them back up to how they were in Melee? It wouldn't accomplish much more than likely.


And Falco's Brawl reflector is **** <_<

-done with this-

Dot. I'm not sure how people don't understand why the top characters in melee aren't being changed.

Even more so I'm not sure why people think Melee 2.0 = Melee 1.0 GC from 2001 = Melee clone. Pure stupidity.

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure the phrase "Melee 2.0" means Melee core components/physics with an improvement (like the many characters getting buffs/moves tweaked), hence the 2.0.

 

[stingers]

And it's obvious they aren't going to change the way they've been doing things for a year now...

Those that take risks are always those that succeed.

And since there's no money in this, a little bit of success means nothing, so playing it safe is pointless.

 

[Dantarion]

LOL, look at this dude. You developers are so unprofessional. My god. That's like sending a letter to Nintendo about a complaint you had with a game and them sending you back a letter telling you to put a foot in your mouth and STFU.

LOLOLOLOL/

You want us to be professional? Start paying us, we will form a company, and we will hire a PR team to review all public responses to anything posted by the community.

It will be awesome, just like all the feedback we got about Brawl during its development.
Oh wait, thats right, Nintendo didnt do that, Nintendo chose the option where they just DIDNT talk about Brawl till it was pretty much done, and then didnt take any input from anywhere about anything.

That is professional, and that is how professionals work. Welcome to the world of indie game development, where we do what we want because we can, and we talk about our game with the people we think will want to play it.

 

[Zef]

y does he think hes funny

 

[Frogles]

stingers and his new boyfriend make the worst posts.

 

[Slashy]

Three questions:

Why was the FLUDD removed?
How is Aura not competitive?
Is Sonic getting a more original moveset?

We should make a list of titles, then let the PMBR vote on which should be the final name for the project.

I vote Super Smash Bros. Melee 2.

 

[BAD]

Why are you guys arguing this anyway?

We just don't like how certain characters are getting completely overhauled like Wario when we are used to his playstyle in Brawl. It's cool if you guys want to use the Melee engine, but to completely change a character and certain aspects of the game like randomness I think is going a bit overboard. That's all I'm saying.

The game will turn out amazing even with any problems the development team may have.

And it's obvious they aren't going to change the way they've been doing things for a year now...

We know our complaining won't change anything and yes this game may turn out amazing, but this won't be Melee 2.0. This game will be a completely different Smash game of it's own with all of the changes this game is getting.

 

[stingers]

You want us to be professional? Start paying us, we will form a company, and we will hire a PR team to review all public responses to anything posted by the community.

It will be awesome, just like all the feedback we got about Brawl during its development.
Oh wait, thats right, Nintendo didnt do that, Nintendo chose the option where they just DIDNT talk about Brawl till it was pretty much done, and then didnt take any input from anywhere about anything.

That is professional, and that is how professionals work. Welcome to the world of indie game development, where we do what we want because we can, and we talk about our game with the people we think will want to play it.

You are aware of the huge double standard in this post right? Being an awesome coder doesn't excuse you from being a lackluster human being. At least be internally consistent if you're going to put yourself on as the face of this project.

 

[shanus]

I did not play GaW in Brawl. I did play ROB however =] I don't think that has anything to do with this. Believe me, I am anything but biased when I discuss game design. I strive for balance, in all areas.

Also, if you think that current GaW is on the level of Melee top tiers (NOT in relation to GaW's matchup with them, but in relation to GaW's ability's vs. the cast), then you are severely mistaken =/

I honestly don't appreciate the jabs at my character though. It's quite disrespectful. Aren't you the project head? Lack of professionalism was one of my key points, and you just supported that fully. I think someone in your position should try and have a clearer head in regards to how they respond to others. Public relations is one of the most important, if not the most important aspects of a business. And what are businesses after? Success, monetary success that is, but success nonetheless. If you're after success, I suggest you follow the same policies.

Also, I give nothing but respect towards the development team, which I also said in my post, and you also made it out to be that I'm insulting them somehow? If you consider dissatisfaction with the work that you guys have done to be insulting, then you are ANOTHER prime example of the "inability to handle dissenting opinions" that I've been talking about for the past ~6 months. It's always been clear that it runs throughout the team, but, once again, the project head should try and keep a clearer head.

Now, if you want my ideas to avoid specific kinds of character bias, it would be to establish leaders for certain sections of the game and have meetings between the leaders to decide in what direction they should move. Leaders only. Leaders should be chosen on merit. This way, you have those who hold the clearest and the BEST ideas for balance, redesign, and any other areas you wish to cover collaborating on something that can truly be called a great product. Leaving it to the Link main to totally redesign Link, for example, will not end with the optimal product. This is NOT saying that he will be "biased" to the point of breaking the character, because I believe that certain types of people will genuinely try to balance their characters. The thing is, the "bias" they hold is in regards to their view of the character: it's limited. Also, I'm NOT saying that calling in "experts" of the character is a bad idea, on the contrary it's a very good one. Leaving them to their own devices, however, is not.

So if you actually wanted my opinion (lol), now you have it.

I don't see where in my post I took a stab at your character. If I did somehow construe this, then I apologize.

Regarding GaW's balance: I can't claim any character is balanced. Nor do I want to. I think we've made that pretty public opinion at this point that our internal testing is too limited to make any significant balance decisions at this stage in the project.

Regarding the rest of your post:

The reason I took a sarcastic tone is because you took a stab at the word bias. I feel that given the nature of a video game, bias is unavoidable, even with endless funding. Hence why I posted a question which truthfully has no answer to you, because I wanted you to strengthen my point (which you did, because in the end result - you didn't really post any true answer on how to avoid bias). The point is the structure to running this team and building this game has been ever-changing, and is in effect, incredibly difficult (because we aren't professionals!). It's easy to take on the eyes of a (no-offense as you do not have visibility into our irc or back room) ignorant observer and critique where structural flaws are because you don't understand the dynamic of why they happen and how difficult of an issue it is to correcting them.

In reality, we have a makeshift team of people the age of 15-25 using their either very little to abundant free time to make a product. Demanding bias-aversion, structured support, a perfect hierarchy, and meeting deadlines (for characters they may or may not wish to work on) is a lot to ask of someones hobby with no financial incentive.

With that said, we have formulated a structure which is not ideal, but the point is that it works. We can't always have unbiased leaders based on merit few and far between, because in reality, coding project m requires significant time investment in not only knowing the game, but knowing coding, balance, and a half-hearted understanding of game design. This is partly the nature of what resources we have available, and I don't think you'll find any "smash developer" programmers majors graduating from college any time soon.

Obviously you bring out fair points, but at the same time, its unrealistic. The fact is, many, many people, have enjoyed the project we have made thus far. We do hate negative feedback, but we do take it seriously. I don't think any single person on the team likes reading that a part of our hard work was not enjoyed. But we do listen to it, nonetheless, but we also have to do it through a filter. Not everyone's posts are equal, and thats due to bias on both their end, and ours as well. However, some people on this team have tempers. I generally try and tell them to stop posting, but its just in somebody's personal nature to be defensive. I'm sure you are as well, as many of your posts have been in the past. Demanding perfect PR is difficult, but its part of the reason we try to keep this product behind closed doors until we feel satisfied with the product.

I don't really know where I'm going with this anymore, but I need to get back to work.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

also +1 to figuring out an official name for Project:M... i mean, i dont think it should still be called a 'project' when its finished. (Personally want the name to be ssb mild skirmish

Why don't we just call it Melee 2?

Those that take risks are always those that succeed.

And since there's no money in this, a little bit of success means nothing, so playing it safe is pointless.

It's already going fine. There is no need to change it up.

We just don't like how certain characters are getting completely overhauled like Wario when we are used to his playstyle in Brawl. It's cool if you guys want to use the Melee engine, but to completely change a character and certain aspects of the game like randomness I think is going a bit overboard. That's all I'm saying.

We know our complaining won't change anything and yes this game may turn out amazing, but this won't be Melee 2.0. This game will be a completely different Smash game of it's own with all of the changes this game is getting.

If you admit that complaining won't change anything, let me ask you again: "Why are you still arguing this?"

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

You guys do realize that, assuming BAD actually is a troll and not just a guy with 30 posts and some pretty impressive ignorance (likely), he's already pretty much accomplished every troll's purpose.

This thread is completely derailed and focused on him, and has been so for the past two or three pages.


Just so I'm not a complete hypocrite, I noticed Ness seems to be bouncing off of PK Thunder2 less. Did anything actually change, or am I just seeing things?

 

[Slashy]

Super Smash Bros. Melee 2 has 2 votes

 

[BAD]

You want us to be professional? Start paying us, we will form a company, and we will hire a PR team to review all public responses to anything posted by the community.

It will be awesome, just like all the feedback we got about Brawl during its development.
Oh wait, thats right, Nintendo didnt do that, Nintendo chose the option where they just DIDNT talk about Brawl till it was pretty much done, and then didnt take any input from anywhere about anything.

That is professional, and that is how professionals work. Welcome to the world of indie game development, where we do what we want because we can, and we talk about our game with the people we think will want to play it.

At least stop being ***-holes to people that have concerns for the game you are making. You insulting us proves that you guys are not open to criticism to your game and will only drive us away. The fact that we are even concerned about your game shows that we have interest in it. Don't treat us as the enemy and tell us to put our foot in out mouths.

Seriously, WTF?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

At least stop being ***-holes to people that have concerns for the game you are making. You insulting us proves that you guys are not open to criticism to your game and will only drive us away. The fact that we are even concerned about your game shows that we have interest in it. Don't treat us as the enemy and tell us to put our foot in out mouths.

Seriously, WTF?

No one cares.

The development team are perfectly in their right to ignore your opinion and treat you like trash. What are you going to do about it?

Not download their free-ware mod? Yeah, that'll show 'em!

 

[Slashy]

I do like that this project leaves in some user friendly options seen from Brawl+.

-Automatic L-Canceling (optional, not hardcoded into the PACs, from what I heard)
-Buffer
-Backwards ledge-grabbing
-Tether recoveries snap to ledge (or so I heard)

Tell me if I am wrong on any of these.

 

[FrozenHobo]

 

[MonkUnit]

Optional Auto L Canceling would probably have to be an ASM code, and even then it would just be easier to remove the L cancel code and use the automatic L cancel code that B+ used.
Buffer will be optional. Although, 0 buffer is the tourney rule.
You cannot grab the ledge backwards unless you are in special fall.
Tether recoveries still act like brawl tethers.