Project M Social Thread

[GP&B]

 

[Shell]

The main thing I don't like about the armor is that it largely changes his gameplay. You guys said that you want to keep characters as close to Melee as possible, and buff bad characters so they're better without changing how they play. Giving armor on moves will definitely change how Bowser plays, and I think you've acknowledged that. Certain matchups against quick weak characters will now be played completely differently, with some former weaknesses not only removed, but actually turning into strengths for Bowser. So doesn't this go against your design philosophy?

In a way, Jiang's Bowser is actually much closer to Melee bowser than the Sped-Up Boozer in Brawl+. It maintains a focus on slower moves, but he now has the tools to actually use them (so long as you have the requisite skill). And, as others have stated, matchups with the lower tiers will change drastically in order to achieve balance.

Melee Boozer, as much as I love him, doesn't really have a lot of true strengths when you compare him to the top tiers... the closest being decent edgeguarding, which Sheik still does twice as well without any of his weaknesses. So, the strengths have to come from somewhere, and I think this has the potential to be much more interesting than balancing him by making his F-tilt kill at 90% or something.

And his Melee weaknesses are all still there. While his Up-B OoS was always **** (Invincible 1-5, I believe) he still falls prey to pressure. His moves still have high endlag. He still has few combo options. His recovery is still exceptionally easy to gimp horizontally due to the way it works with momentum and is completely vulnerable to spikes due to the utter lack of vertical movement. With his new size and Melee physics he's possibly the best combo bait in smash history.

Regardless, I admit I should not have approved this for exhibition so soon. We will take the constructive feedback that was given and refine the concept for presentation at a later date. As always, experiments which don't sit well with Melee playtesters are tweaked and if that still doesn't work, removed, regardless of the time spent on them. So far the response of the playtesters has been very positive, but, we will continue to closely monitor this work.

If anyone else has concise, constructive ideas on how they think Armor could work (armor just on shell rather than the whole body is good example) or if you absolutely must vent about how this will ruin the game () you may PM either Jiang or myself. Otherwise, I would like to conclude discussion of this build for now. Thank you.

You guys gotta recreate Bowser's Melee get up attack from 1-99%.

Also, will the claw hitbox on Bowser's side-b have a favorable angle for combos as a consolation for missing the grab hitbox?

And what are the plans for the throws from Bowser's Koopa Klaw?

Thx in advance.

Melee getup attack has been recreated, as shown in the videos.

Yes, claw box has KB similar to old Melee Klaw F-throw

I need to check on the current Klaw throw options.

Sooooooo, does yoshi's Fsmash and dash attack give him invulnerability on his head like back in the day?

Yes, I believe they're back. I'm pretty sure he also has inluvn on his head during U-smash and possibly a few other moves ala Melee. I can look into the specific frames and bones for you if you like.

 

[Revven]

I agree with this. And speaking of which, how are you guys at P:M coming along with the camera for melee maps and brawl neutrals like Smashville?

It's been said before, camera is still WIP but if you noticed at all in the latest videos (esp. DaShizWiz's videos) the camera zooms out faster, zooms in faster, and keeps up with the speed better.

 

[V-K]

I loved Melees Bowser more than Brawls but he shouldnt stay exactly like that.

Maybe a bit more damage and a bit less lag frames.

 

[Archangel]

@ FD

RAAAAAPPPPPEEE!!!!!!!!!


can't wait till this

Get at my DBZ References.

 

[Kink-Link5]

All forms of grabs, Bowser's U-smash, Bowser's F-smash, Charizard's F-smash, Charizard's D-smash, Falcon's F-smash, Falcon's Standard B, DK's F-smash, DK's U-smash, DK's D-smash, DK's Standard B, Diddy's D-smash, Falco's F-smash, Fox's F-smash, Fox's U-smash, Ganon's U-tilt, Ganon's F-smash, Ganon's U-smash, Ganon's Dair, Ganon's Standard B, Ike's F-smash, Ike's U-smash, Ike's Standard B, Ike's Down-B, Ivysaur's F-smash, Ivysaur's U-smash, Jigglypuff's Down B, Jigglypuff's Up B, DeDeDe's F-smash, DeDeDe's D-smash, DeDeDe's Down B, Kirby's U-Smash, Kirby's Side B, Link's F-smash, Link's D-smash, Link's Dair, Link's Up-B, Lucario's F-smash, Lucario's U-smash, Lucario's D-smash, Lucario's Standard B, Lucario's Down B, Lucas's F-smash, Lucas's U-smash, Lucas's D-smash, Luigi's F-smash, Luigi's U-smash, Luigi's D-smash, Luigi's Side B, Luigi's Up B, Mario's F-smash, Mario's D-smash, Marth's F-smash, Marth's U-smash, Marth's Standard B, Marth's Down B, Metaknight's F-smash, Game and Watch's F-smash, Game and Watch's U-smash, Game and Watch's U-smash, Game and Watch's Side B, Game and Watch's Down B, Ness's F-smash, Ness's Standard B, Ness's Up-B, Olimar's F-smash, Olimar's U-smash, Olimar's D-smash, Peach's F-smash, Peach's U-smash, Peach's Down B, Pikachu's F-smash, Snake's F-smash, Squirtle's F-smash, YTLink's U-smash, Wario's F-smash, Wario's Down B, Wolf's Down B, Yoshi's F-smash, Yoshi's U-smash, Zelda's Standard B, and Zelda's Up B are all capable of beating out Bowser's 20% heavy armour.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Oshtoby]

Get at my DBZ References.

So, at 50% completion, it's far beyond all the competition, but by the time it gets to 100 % completion, something else will far surpass it?

/off-topic joke

 

[Sterowent]

was lurking around melee discussion, and a thread brought up a trophy that could have been a stage: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283753

have you asked the melee pros what kinds of stages they wished were available? just curious. i know most of you guys aren't stage directors, but aside from the important melee stages already being made (you're the best, gamewatching/frobro/mewtwo2000) what long lost or long sought after stages do players wish to see?

 

[GP&B]

I do believe all three Trophy Tussle stages are available with Brawl hacking.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

so will you take a new direction with bowser now that feedback has been very negative?
I'm REALLY losing faith in the project at this point and it's getting WAY out of hand. Taking this to 2.0 and continuing with your attitude toward feedback will lead to the downfall of this project. You need to keep it simple and keep it melee, nothing else. It's honestly getting ********.

 

[GPDP]

so will you take a new direction with bowser now that feedback has been very negative?
I'm REALLY losing faith in the project at this point and it's getting WAY out of hand. Taking this to 2.0 and continuing with your attitude toward feedback will lead to the downfall of this project. You need to keep it simple and keep it melee, nothing else. It's honestly getting ********.

cool story bro

They already said the Bowser stuff was pretty much Jiang's own thing. Let's drop it.

 

[94teen]

so will you take a new direction with bowser now that feedback has been very negative?
I'm REALLY losing faith in the project at this point and it's getting WAY out of hand. Taking this to 2.0 and continuing with your attitude toward feedback will lead to the downfall of this project. You need to keep it simple and keep it melee, nothing else. It's honestly getting ********.

I think that's going a bit far. Snake went through a lot of changes, and he seems like one of the most hyped characters. All of the things that have been publicly released have been positively received so far. I feel like it's unreasonable to expect every change to be awesome right away.

Super armor is an idea, and it's really interesting. I think it's unreasonable to judge it when none of us have played with it. Voicing concerns/asking questions to better understand how it works is fine, and helps move the project along in some way. Dismissing it out of hand is not constructive, as is the whole "Just make it melee" thing. That's just dumb.

I mean, really, what if they come up with something similar to melee shines? Something that adds all kinds of depth to the character's metagame, but requires some exploration and experimentation before it's really understood? Are we just going to dismiss it because "it's not melee" or it "seems like a bad idea" when we haven't played with it at all? I feel like it's safe to assume that they know what they're doing.


tl;dr - I don't think feedback was negative for the most part, just skeptical. It's something reasonably innovative that's hard to judge without extensive playtesting, and so people are uncomfortable with the idea.

Most of the ideas that get published from the Back Room are awesome, so I feel like it's reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt in most cases. The finished product will be awesome, so is there really a need to bash them for testing interesting and unique things in the meantime?

 

[OverLade]

Everyone needs to chill out.

This game plays AMAZINGLY right now, and don't let one or two little lapses in direction or new ideas get to you. We want to make sure that this game has viability for characters that didn't stand a chance in melee.

For example, Ganondorf's Brawl side B is a wonderful addition that complements the melee character and expands on his game. Giving Bowser super armor may seem a bit extreme, but we're simply looking to expand on the characters strengths while keeping their melee fundamentals enjoyable.

Don't be so quick to judge, especially after just a few videos.

 

[GP&B]

Every time someone treats something from this project as final, many facepalms will be had.

I thought everyone understood that the developers for this aren't stupid.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

yeah i realize that wasn't official but the idea that you'd release it to the public seems odd. Another thing mentioned was heavily nerfing bowsers up b. That's bowsers ace, it's like taking the shines away from the spacies.
also at the end of the day these developers are just normal people with coding experience, having unwavering faith in what they will do isn't always the best thing. You have to stand up when you don't agree with changes, like with those bowser changes.

 

[shanus]

so will you take a new direction with bowser now that feedback has been very negative?
I'm REALLY losing faith in the project at this point and it's getting WAY out of hand. Taking this to 2.0 and continuing with your attitude toward feedback will lead to the downfall of this project. You need to keep it simple and keep it melee, nothing else. It's honestly getting ********.

If your going to be so close-minded to the development of this project in its alpha stage, i recommend you leave this thread till the beta is released.

 

[Sneak8288]

If the person vs badguy adapted to the fact that moves had super armor people wouldn't think it was over powered. Its only as good as people make it. Same with snake. Time and time again people see my videos and think he's broken but then try snake and says he sucks and blah blah. I bet over half of the people complain about bowser SA wouldn't even be able to put it to good use anyway. I dare any one to spam a SAed move vs my spacies and see how much damage they take. All the opponent has to do is bait it.

 

[Shadic]

so will you take a new direction with bowser now that feedback has been very negative?
I'm REALLY losing faith in the project at this point and it's getting WAY out of hand. Taking this to 2.0 and continuing with your attitude toward feedback will lead to the downfall of this project. You need to keep it simple and keep it melee, nothing else. It's honestly getting ********.

Except all feedback from skilled Melee tournament players has been positive for the Bowser build, IIRC correctly. Three people endlessly complaining in this thread is nothing compared to that.

And, you know, read SHeLL's post. And not to mention this game is set to improve on Melee, not keep everything 100%. You like, like what was said in the second post of this thread. Just because we're not matching your delusions doesn't mean everybody looking forward to the game is jumping ship all of the sudden.

nother thing mentioned was heavily nerfing bowsers up b. That's bowsers ace, it's like taking the shines away from the spacies.

I'm curious where that was mentioned. Also, Bowser's UpB has invincibility. Compare that to the super/heavy armor you're complaining so much about and it's ridiculous.

 

[GP&B]

also at the end of the day these developers are just normal people with coding experience, having unwavering faith in what they will do isn't always the best thing. You have to stand up when you don't agree with changes, like with those bowser changes.

The thing is, even for normal people they sure as hell have proven over and over that they know precisely what they're doing; they even have the following of a number of high and top level players helping out to prove it. It has given them a lot of credibility and it's what makes a lot of people very faithful to the project efforts yet still capable of giving reasonable feedback compared to well, you and stingers.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

We actually nerfed his up b drastically. Melee bowser had very few options to work with other then edgeguarding, and up b was his ace defense attack/finisher, koing at around 90-120 depending on the weight of the character. It was nerfed because bowser doesnt need to rely on this single move anymore. It only does 11 damage and cannot ko til 140-150.

this is why i brought up the up-b
i have faith in the project but the bowser stuff was ridiculous and terrible and others in the thread agreed

 

[GP&B]

No one agreed that the Bowser build was terrible. There was skepticism over the idea, but it was mostly stingers being overly vocal as usual.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

your name is ICHIGOBLEACH.

 

[Archangel]

@ICHIGOBLEACH

You make it sound much worse than it is. You've never even seen bowser in Project M LOL. Trust me I played lots of matches at the APEX set up and he's very very far from broken. Also melee is not simple at all. It's one of the deepest most complex games ever put together in terms of fighting games. If anything the only drawback to melee is only about 7 or 8 characters get to enjoy high level competition and the cool technical stuff. Everyone in Melee that is "Simple" Sucks. That being more then half of the cast including bowser. Armor doesn't Buff Bowser to the point of being better then everyone by any means. He's very much ****-able still however it gives him a fighting chance and forces people to be have to create opportunities vs him. Think of it as Bowser the feared boss from all Mario games. Thats the kind of bowser that should be in a melee game instead of the bottom tier version that currently exists.

All in all if you haven't played the game yet just be patient. Trust in your fellow melee players and please stop with the overly dramatic posts. From my experience fighting against him I'd say he's tougher but still closer to the bottom end overall.

 

[OverLade]

Who are the people in this thread compared to melee pros?

There will be no issue about bowser being too good, he probably wont even be high tier. It's the same way when brawl came out people though ike was broken. Things like that are adapted to very quickly, but the idea is to give bowser a solid mix up game to fight back against characters that would potentially **** him. Giving him heavy armor and super armor will definitely give the character safer options. Once match of one falco player getting ***** doesn't mean anything. We don't even have proof that the heavy armor helps bowser enough to make him viable yet...so chill out and hold out.

Speaking of, NEW SNAKE AND MK VIDS FROM MOTHER****ING HALZY HIMSELF COMIN AT YOU LIVE AND DIRECT.

We'll go through them and selectively find some good ones for the public

 

[GP&B]

And I'd like to restate what shanus said about this build not even being approved yet. It was a side project used to find any gems amidst it that would prove useful in a more PMBR-accepted setup for Bowser.

Think of it exactly like Snake's development, except that Jiang released info a bit too early to receive definite feedback (meaning that no solid theories could really be formed about the results of this build).

 

[I R MarF]

The thing is, even for normal people they sure as hell have proven over and over that they know precisely what they're doing; they even have the following of a number of high and top level players helping out to prove it. It has given them a lot of credibility and it's what makes a lot of people very faithful to the project efforts yet still capable of giving reasonable feedback compared to well, you and stingers.

I am starting to get under the impression they are actually the same person. Their ideals are way too similar.

Also, on a side note what changes are you giving Pit? Do you think his arrows in conjunction with his multiple jumps might make him too good at gimping or do you think it won't matter?

 

[shanus]

We don't want to discredit jiangs work, its just that its likely going to change and become significantly more refined with time.

 

[GP&B]

I might have messed up the context of the posts describing how Jiang went to create a test build, but it really comes down to the obvious fact that everything is subject to change anyways.

 

[Archangel]

on a side note what changes are you giving Pit? Do you think his arrows in conjunction with his multiple jumps mkight make him too good at gimping or do you think it won't matter?

I used pit in like 5 or 6 Matches. He's about as good as Melee's young link if he had wings. He's got alot of potential though. Mainly do to his projectile game and his ability to reflect other projectiles. However something about it doesn't all come together in terms of his combos. His combos just feel awkward for some reason.

 

[Sneak8288]

i think pit would be beast with a sex kick.. and wats so bad about the bowser build except for the fact that the other player looked fairly new to the game? and redhalberd i definitely wanna see those snake vids. I wanna see what other people think up to incorporate into my style.

 

[FireBall Stars]

I don't see how super/heavy armor can go against the Melee gameplay, Bowser never had a gameplay similar to the higher tier characters and will never have, he has too much special traits to that.

It's a good idea to boost his characteristcs to a point that will overcome his weakness of being too slow, this way giving him a way to maintain himself in his steady way and not being so easily overwhelmed by fast attacks.

It's like Hulk, but with a set percentage of super armor. Bowser always should be a tank like that, also, it fits with the character.

Anyone remember that yoshi always had a super armor until 120% in his midair jump? >_>
Maybe no because it couldn't be used effectively.

 

[Hellsinglover999]

I don't see how super/heavy armor can go against the Melee gameplay, Bowser never had a gameplay similar to the higher tier characters and will never have, he has too much special traits to it.

It's a good idea to boost his characteristcs to a point that will overcome his weakness of being too slow, this way giving him a way to maintain himself in his steady way and not being so easily overwhelmed by fast attacks.

It's like Hulk, but with a set percentage of super armor. Bowser always should be a tank like that, also, it fits with the character.

Anyone remember that yoshi always had a super armor until 120% in his midair jump? >_>
Maybe no because it couldn't be used effectively.

lol lvl 9 yoshi could....thats about it rofl also couldnt falco's shine stop that

 

[[TSON]]

I'm REALLY losing faith in the project

Then get out of the thread.

note: this portays my opinion and not that of anyone in the PMBR or of Smashboards Staff

When we release, you'll change your mind.

 

[genkaku]

New vids are always appreciated.

 

[bleyva]

couldnt help but notice a few guys mention that Bowser is bigger now

do you have plans to resize any other characters? brawl samus for example seems a bit too big compared to her melee counterpart....

 

[Shell]

We've gotten a couple of good suggestions for Bowser (namely shell-only invuln and/or percent-decreasing armor), so please hold further discussion on him until we have a chance to code those refinements and test them.

There's no point in beating a dead horse discussing a build which will be changed and polished, so if you have anything you must say send a PM to Jiang or myself until we're ready to present a new version. rPSI and TSON will be enforcing this hiatus on Boozer discussion.

Thank you.

couldnt help but notice a few guys mention that Bowser is bigger now

do you have plans to resize any other characters? brawl samus for example seems a bit too big compared to her melee counterpart....

Yes, in general characters will eventually be the same size relative to Mario. Samus will be shrunk etc.

 

[bleyva]

in general characters will eventually be the same size relative to Mario.

quite, quite awesome

 

[SymphonicSage12]

They didn't resize bowser for P:M. What they mean is vBrawl bowser's model is bigger than his melee one.

EDIT: nvm...

 

[stingers]

wow @ people telling ichigobleach to leave...clearly this is not a project for the masses lmao. you guys are the rudest bunch of people ever, I swear to god -,-

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, liking the DSW vs. Hax videos.

wow @ people telling ichigobleach to leave...clearly this is not a project for the masses lmao. you guys are the rudest bunch of people ever, I swear to god -,-

No, clearly this project is not for you. You should follow ichigo out as you've been nothing but a pain in the *** to see here given that you hardly add anything constructive to the thread. Cut the crap or stop posting altogether. It's getting incredibly annoying.