Project M Social Thread

[BadGuy]

Jiang just told me you've had the build for about 2 weeks, be honest badguy, can anyone be expected to fully master a character in 2 weeks? I know you're a melee bowser main so there are many things you're already used to, which is exactly why changing your established playstyle to adapt to your new options will take a lot of time.

Bowser's play style is pretty much the same as his melee form, except we threw on some armor for a couple frames of his moves to help him stand up to the top tiers and spammers. I'd say its a great success so far.

The armor is not something that just "works", you have to time it. Know what move has armor to begin with, how soon to use it, make sure they arent coming to grab you instead, or psych you out and draw his attack and leave bowser wide open. Do..do you see how much stuff builds up? Not easy at all. Hell, most people dont use bowser simply because he's..*gasp* difficult to use. That hasn't changed either, only the dedicated will be able to use the armor properly. Everyone else looking for an easy counter pick character will have just have tar beaten outta them.

 

[stingers]

From the videos, it was largely something that just "worked" in that the timing is very forgiving...

And of course, all of the stuff required to learn the character will make Bowser a bit more of a thoughtful character then Brawl DDD, but the fact remains all the same that you're removing weaknesses from the character and letting him become a hard counterpick instead of just...actually balancing him? I have to believe that the WBR has a bit more sense then that, but based on my convo with jiang...lol

 

[hotdogturtle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQjG7XHM8Ms#t=1m2s

This worries me... Moments like this seem really simple to set up and take advantage of.

And here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb47aQrddAE#t=34s

Did he have armor on his stand? It looks and sounds like the downsmash hit him while he was standing still, and he started his downsmash after Sheik was already attacking. Please tell me if I'm mistaken.

I understand your intentions with trying to give a unique perk to a lower tier character to buff him without overpowering him, but honestly, easily accessible armor seems like a quality more fit for Brawl- and goes against the style of this project.

 

[BadGuy]

Balancing will come, but don't expect things to much different then the build you just witnessed.

Bowser still has loads of weaknesses(big cool down for missed l cancels, easy to grab, most whiffed attacks leave bowser wide open, easy to gimp and edgeguard ironically enough, large target, easy to combo.)
The problem with you, is that you don't think like a tourney player, never analyze for weaknesses or what to exploit to win, you just complain.

 

[iLink]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQjG7XHM8Ms#t=1m2s

This worries me... Moments like this seem really simple to set up and take advantage of.

And here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb47aQrddAE#t=34s

Did he have armor on his stand? It looks and sounds like the downsmash hit him while he was standing still, and he started his downsmash after Sheik was already attacking. Please tell me if I'm mistaken.

I understand your intentions with trying to give a unique perk to a lower tier character to buff him without overpowering him, but honestly, easily accessible armor seems like a quality more fit for Brawl- and goes against the style of this project.

He could have used Dsmash instead of Dtilt for a KO too in that first video.

As for the second one, it seems the starting frames of Dsmash have the armor and the Dsmash hit him as he was starting his.

I still don't think having this much heavy armor is appropriate for the style of game, at least the abundance of it.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Jiang just told me you've had the build for about 2 weeks, be honest badguy, can anyone be expected to fully master a character in 2 weeks? I know you're a melee bowser main so there are many things you're already used to, which is exactly why changing your established playstyle to adapt to your new options will take a lot of time.

he had the build he has for about 2 weeks, but the project has been in constant development for about 2 months now. so he's been able to learn how to use the armor in that time.

here's stingers argument: if you add something new to the game, we shouldn't expect people to be mastering it right away. therefore, badguy should not be using armor effectively, since it's a new addition to the game, and if he is, that means armor is a completely doomed mechanic that absolutely will not work and has no place in project M.

stinger's evidence: 4 youtube videos i linked to between badguy (who's been a part of the brawl+, projectm scene for as long as it's been around, who's been play testing this bowser build for weeks now, who's more familiar with the physics, the feel, and the nuances of the game) and his friends from fresno who picked up project M for the first time

conclusion: stingers jumps to conclusions too fast imo.

 

[stingers]

BadGuy, you're just as condescending as the rest of them, are you ****ing kidding me? The problem with you is that you just assume things about other people without actually knowing them and then act like a **** because of it.

Of the remaining weaknesses you listed, two of them aren't even ****ing weaknesses (Don't miss your **** L cancels, don't whiff your **** attacks). Yes, being big is possibly the only weakness that these guys plan on leaving intact from what I've seen, but I guess once they figure out how to have a Poison mushroom spawn over bowser every time he uses Up taunt or something that'll be straight in.

I can only imagine how thrilled you are with all the insane buffs bowser is receiving, but the rest of us are actually concerned.

 

[BadGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQjG7XHM8Ms#t=1m2s

This worries me... Moments like this seem really simple to set up and take advantage of.

And here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb47aQrddAE#t=34s

Did he have armor on his stand? It looks and sounds like the downsmash hit him while he was standing still, and he started his downsmash after Sheik was already attacking. Please tell me if I'm mistaken.

I understand your intentions with trying to give a unique perk to a lower tier character to buff him without overpowering him, but honestly, easily accessible armor seems like a quality more fit for Brawl- and goes against the style of this project.

I can actually explain the standing armor from the sheik match, bower's tank crawl has light armor, sheik's down smash does individual damage less then 7, so bowser can tank it. I did a down smash at the same time as sheik's, bowser's crawl registered first, tanking, then the down smash came out, disrupting the attack and overwhelming it. I agree that there should be some trimming for the armor in that circumstance.

 

[BadGuy]

BadGuy, you're just as condescending as the rest of them, are you ****ing kidding me? The problem with you is that you just assume things about other people without actually knowing them and then act like a **** because of it.

Of the remaining weaknesses you listed, two of them aren't even ****ing weaknesses (Don't miss your **** L cancels, don't whiff your **** attacks). Yes, being big is possibly the only weakness that these guys plan on leaving intact from what I've seen, but I guess once they figure out how to have a Poison mushroom spawn over bowser every time he uses Up taunt or something that'll be straight in.

I can only imagine how thrilled you are with all the insane buffs bowser is receiving, but the rest of us are actually concerned.

whiffed attacks=bowser bomb, forward smash, down smash, up smash, fire breath, fortress, koopa klaw. Aw lawd, i wish i could l cancel those..

 

[stingers]

I agree that there should be some trimming for the armor in that circumstance.

Eh, what do you recommend trimmed? All things are working as intended there =/

And if you WHIFF AN ATTACK, YOU DESERVE TO BE PUNISHED, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Jesus christ. Don't tell me the testers are bred from the same lot as the developers.

 

[BadGuy]

Eh, what do you recommend trimmed? All things are working as intended there =/

And if you WHIFF AN ATTACK, YOU DESERVE TO BE PUNISHED, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Jesus christ. Don't tell me the testers are bred from the same lot as the developers.

Calm down dawg, that's the point. Most of bowser's specials and smash's require precision to land, missing leaves him wide open. The armor is only effect for a couple frames, make bowser miss=combo time.
The purpose of these vids is to show the ground work, there will be balancing, but the armor will stay in the long run.

 

[sswizzbbeatss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQjG7XHM8Ms#t=1m2s

This worries me... Moments like this seem really simple to set up and take advantage of.

And here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb47aQrddAE#t=34s

Did he have armor on his stand? It looks and sounds like the downsmash hit him while he was standing still, and he started his downsmash after Sheik was already attacking. Please tell me if I'm mistaken.

I understand your intentions with trying to give a unique perk to a lower tier character to buff him without overpowering him, but honestly, easily accessible armor seems like a quality more fit for Brawl- and goes against the style of this project.

What a bad falco. LOL at the dair suicide

 

[stingers]

Calm down dawg, that's the point. Most of bowser's specials and smash's require precision to land, missing leaves him wide open. The armor is only effect for a couple frames, make bowser miss=combo time.

This is what I was saying earlier...you're still too used to melee bowser. Project Melee bowser would only need to use his laggy attacks when they are needed to power through with super armor and punish hard, not even having to take risks.

 

[BadGuy]

Im guessing my opponent will always just charge forward like some mindless drone? Bowser for top tier lolz.
People can stragitize, mix things up, if you do the same thing over and over, of course im gonna know what to do to counter the next attack. The armor on his smash attacks already take effort to time, that's not hard enough? What if i miss? What if they know im gonna try to tank the next hit? Using the armor doesn't always guarantee a safe way out, the time when i use the nair armor, i would tank the lasers, and still get hit afterward. Its still a generally difficult action to perform risk free.

 

[stingers]

You're basing your balancing strategy off of "the bowser player will probably **** up". This is what led to Brawl ICs.

 

[Strong Badam]

1. jiang isn't in the WBR. he's in the PMBR.
2. the developers of both Melee and Brawl had no idea of the ramifications of competitive gameplay. their balancing strategies failed because they didn't know wtf they were doing, not because of a "the player will **** up" attitude.
3. GameWatching: Melee FD looks amazing, but where the **** is Yoshi's Story?

 

[BadGuy]

You don't wait for someone to mess up, you bait it out.

 

[stingers]

That's merely one way of playing the game, and also has nothing to do with what I said...if you're saying that Fox can just DD camp and shoot lasers at bowser and hope he overcommits, then yes, he can which is what will start happening at tournaments because the THREAT of any approach being stopped by super armor dsmash (or what have you) is enough to make them try to avoid it...hence my brawl ics comment. not to mention that's still merely an error by the bowser player, you can't use that as an argument against it -,-

 

[[TSON]]

...This is kind of ridiculous.

When we release the first build of Project M you will have time to use and abuse whatever "broken things" are implemented and you will have the opportunity to prove to us that they are actually broken. A few matches of Super Theory Bros Brawl aren't going to convince us that something is broken; especially not without Frame Data and coding specifics that aren't even available to you yet.

So stingers, stop arguing. It's pointless. If you have that big of a problem with the way that we're doing things then maybe this isn't the project for you. You could always go play Melee, after all.

 

[iLink]

I just think the crouch armor coupled with dsmash makes it a little too silly.

 

[stingers]

Right I get that the PMBR refuses to listen to criticism tson, but you can't tell someone to stop arguing...I'm allowed to post my opinions in this thread the same as everyone else.

 

[[TSON]]

Yes, you are. Go ahead and continue mindlessly babbling your 'criticism'. We'll pay attention when you get a valid point, like iLink has.

 

[stingers]

Alright tson, and you can keep being a condescending **** with irrational bias against me and the world will continue to turn

 

[Strong Badam]

PS: Players make mistakes. Competitive play is almost entirely based around applying pressure on your opponent until you MAKE an opening to strike.

 

[stingers]

PS: There is still no difference between this and IC's handoff infinites from a design standpoint. Are those still in the game?

 

[BadGuy]

I just think the crouch armor coupled with dsmash makes it a little too silly.

I agree, i'll make sure that is trimmed up. Tank crawl activates a few frames too soon. Bowser should be in complete crouching stance to activate the armor.

 

[Strong Badam]

While I fail to see how boozer tactfully using his heavy armor frames (which with enough match-up knowledge the opponent could do the same) equates to Ice Climber infinite chaingrabs, the answer to your question is no, they are no longer in the game.

Fox can just nair if Boozer is tank crawling. He only has light armor; up to 7% damage. Nair does 12 or 9% damage.

 

[[TSON]]

Alright tson, and you can keep being a condescending **** with irrational bias against me and the world will continue to turn

There is no irrational bias. You've had your chance to grab our attention but your so-called criticism is either baseless or unable to be formed into words. When we tell you that we cannot decipher the problem you accuse us of being unable to handle criticism. Another main problem that has earned your judgement is the fact that you have derailed the thread into anti-stingers because of your headstrong and deaf attitude. Please, state a valid point with supporting facts and we will listen to you. The way you are acting will get you nowhere.

 

[stingers]

Right, you fail to see it because you're looking at it from a functionality standpoint, not a design one. Of course they're functionally different. They are both designed around the fact that they are not that big a deal because the player will probably mess up anyway. Which is utterly ********. Which I have explained. And you have ignored. Ad infinum.

 

[BadGuy]

Fox can just nair if Boozer is tank crawling. He only has light armor; up to 7% damage. Nair does 12 or 9% damage.

Or grab, bowser's bigger now, easy to grab, is..is no one catching on to this?

 

[stingers]

Yes, bowser is big, badguy.

 

[[TSON]]

His size was increased.

 

[Strong Badam]

but they aren't. IC's infinite chaingrabs I'm pretty sure weren't intentional, and if they were, then they get a "SAKURAIIII"
bowser's armor is designed around the fact that he's ****ing bowser, has a shell, and is a terrible character. we don't expect good players are going to **** up. that'd be a terrible design/development strategy and I'd stop that in its tracks at the first sign of it. his armor isn't in its final stage, yet; we haven't 100% balanced it. we're going to see how it works when the game is released and if Bowser is for some reason top of top tier because of it we'll nerf it significantly.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Right I get that the PMBR refuses to listen to criticism tson, but you can't tell someone to stop arguing...I'm allowed to post my opinions in this thread the same as everyone else.

LMFAO

I hope this is a joke.

Project M(inus), anyone?

...

stingers alerted me on AIM that he actually cares about this project, and wants it to succeed. so in his mind, the best way to do that, apparently, is to fearmonger and claim that the backroom doesn't know what they're doing, that they're condescending, that we don't listen, that we're going to ruin everything, and uninvent white bread.

well guess what, we read this thread, we know you guys, we know how you act, think, breathe, and any response you're getting now, is just heat in the kitchen, my friend. the fact that you, stingers, are finally get a dose of your own medicine is PROOF that we listen to you... and unfortunately for you, i fight fire with fire, i'm just surprised you can't take it.


anyway, the bowser balance concerns are duly noted. that's the point of alpha builds, right? don't buy into stinger's apocolyptic claims, we are constantly tweaking things; and how many times have we said we aren't in the balance phase yet? so just chillax my fellow smashians, manifest destiny is just ahead, we just can't expect to get there without encountering a few rocky bumps on the way and your occasional looney bin.

 

[stingers]

The way ICs were designed points to chaingrabs being intentional actually...sad to say =/ nana's AI is different from this then in melee where handoffs were a lot harder to accomplish (I could believe they weren't intentional there)

and strong bad do you guys tend on releasing a public beta still? urghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[Strong Badam]

if there is any way to do the following i will play this game.

>_> yes they all involve bowser, NO they do not involve making him super broken.

Before I begin I'd like to say this - bowser SHOULD NOT BE A COMBO ORIENTED CHARACTER AT ALL. Big damage hits with a couple simple strings - that's EXACTLY what this guy should be.

mannn bowser is cool - i'd totally play if he was like this - even with PURE brawl physics i'd play this character.

so come on make my dream come truueeee and you've got my full support.

yesssss

62characters

 

[sswizzbbeatss]

its 6:09am in my area. anyone else tired? lol
i think bowsers super armor is cool.. tbh
if hes abusing his super armor ill just dair with falco

 

[iLink]

I just kinda wish you guys didn't take the light/heavy armor route for bowser instead of improving some of his established characteristics. His upb was already a great tool in melee in terms of an offensive defense.

I think my biggest concern is the crouch armor, I can just think of a million ways to abuse this. I don't really mind it as much about his nair and bair, I'm kind of iffy on dsmash. Not sure what other attacks have armor.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I just kinda wish you guys didn't take the light/heavy armor route for bowser instead of improving some of his established characteristics. His upb was already a great tool in melee in terms of an offensive defense.

I think my biggest concern is the crouch armor, I can just think of a million ways to abuse this. I don't really mind it as much on his nair and bair, I'm kind of iffy on dsmash. Not sure what other attacks have armor.

the crouch armor has been in brawl+ and you didn't see him wrecking the tiers in that game. the dsmash armor is definitely going to be looked into though. crouch armor is cool because it punishes getup attacks. we'll definitely be tightening up the armor and changing things around, so don't take things for face value just yet. you can wait til the game comes out.

 

[stingers]

[collapse=A conversation with someone civil and understanding, count_kaiser]rlinear@stevenson.edu: Hello?
glifer57: hi...who is this?
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Count_Kaiser
glifer57: oh...i met you at xanadu right?
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Yes
glifer57: sup =]
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Hello. I see you're unhappy with the new bowser. Why?
glifer57: i believe i've already shared my opinions in the thread lol
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Just so I'm clear, your main points are that

A. It's silly looking

B. This turns Bowser into a hard couterpick character
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Correct?
glifer57: uh
glifer57: i never said anything about it being silly looking
glifer57: so no idea where you got that from
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Sorry
glifer57: Part B is part of it, there is a large amount of matchups that are affected by this that I believe weren't really properly thought over...you're essentially giving bowser answers to combat his weaknesses, which is my main problem, him being a hard counterpick is just an extension of that
glifer57: mainly every problem I have with changes you guys are making comes down to design philosphy which is quite obviously different between the common opinion in the PMBR and my own...
glifer57: I don't see any reason to remove weaknesses, but you guys do
glifer57: that's the main difference
glifer57: my ideal project melee would be one where characters have areas that they excel in, ideally carried over from melee and buffs given to help out the lower tiers where they would be able to use it in new ways but not necessarily so that they are immune from something that used to give them trouble
glifer57: and things like bowser super armor on attacks completely negate his weakness to fast attackers...he no longer has to outmaneuver them (which is hard, of course, but it was the option of choice in melee) and punish afterwards (though sometimes he could up b things but w/e lol thats just another option not really important), just be anywhere and use an attack that can burst right through
glifer57: I don't see the sense in that, no...
glifer57: but that's my own opinion, and clearly the PMBR doesnt share it with me haha
glifer57: so I'm content with sharing my opinions with the public in the thread and hoping that I may possibly influence the opinions of the developers to see it my way...of course because that's what everyone wants, a perfect version lol, its just ideas differ.
glifer57: so...there you go.
rlinear@stevenson.edu: How would you go about buffing bowser, then?
glifer57: see this is what people asked me last time when I was talking about charizard and I had to think about it in like...10 minutes, I think it was and share my opinions that I gleamed in 10 minutes and then people laughed at them (like jiang, if you read our convo I posted) even though I did think my charizard ideas were legit...before I answer that (because I still need time to think about it in any case, this isn't exactly a simple problem), I'd like to know what you thought of my charizard ideas (if you even saw them or remember them, because I don't even at this point)
rlinear@stevenson.edu: What were they?
glifer57: >.> well let me go find them...i posted it a long time ago because I basically had this discussion with someone before...i dont remember most of it it was a long time ago and in public on the boards lol
glifer57: right it was tson...geez that guy is a **** to me
glifer57: anyway here
glifer57: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10735022&highlight=charizard#post10735022
glifer57: oh right then i had a little followup http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10735066&postcount=7898
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Hmm
rlinear@stevenson.edu: I'll be honest, these suggestions may very well work, but I'm not certain if they will
rlinear@stevenson.edu: The main problem jiang had with these is that they held no creativity to them.
glifer57: obviously
glifer57: I think they were fairly creative
glifer57: but
glifer57: they're not brawl- creative
glifer57: which is a background most of you stem from...brawl+ and brawl- development
glifer57: where you guys had free reign basically
glifer57: and project m should probably be different then that
glifer57: if you really want to attract melee players
glifer57: you must offer them melee
glifer57: that's just what I think
rlinear@stevenson.edu: As for bowser's HA, he can't camp with it as well as you think. The idea is to catch people who are overaggressive with the armor. If they fake bowser out, he's open
rlinear@stevenson.edu: The armor will obviously need tuning so that it doesn't come out quickly
glifer57: Another problem I have with this which I've posted in the thread if you've been reading
glifer57: badguy basically said the same thing
glifer57: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10955290&postcount=11302
glifer57: that response might also work to what you said
glifer57: if not just tell me and I'll elaborate more
rlinear@stevenson.edu: I see what you're saying
rlinear@stevenson.edu: What I said is invalid because it relies on the player screwing up
glifer57: yeah.
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Do you want me to cite an inherent weakness that bowser still retains?
glifer57: Well the part about bowsers only weakness is him being big and you guys were going to give him a poison mushroom when he utaunts to counter that was just hyperbole about how the trends of you guys' changes have been going lol
glifer57: I know he has weaknesses
glifer57: slow, bad recovery, BIG, etc
glifer57: cant combo
glifer57: w/e
glifer57: he has a lot
glifer57: that's not really the point
glifer57: I'm against utter removal of weaknesses like you guys are doing lol
rlinear@stevenson.edu: The weakness removed being bowser doing poorly against fast characters
glifer57: Eh that's not really a "weakness", that's an extension of his weakness, the main weakness being that bowser couldn't handle 1. extensive pressure against his shield or DD pressure or really any sort of safe approach options, he had up b oos which would always be spaced around because that was literally his only option other then plain outmaneuvering...i think I was talking about this earlier, anyway you've gone against that by giving him a fullproof, 100% uncounterable option against all forms of pressure and safe approaches
glifer57: except by characters that can approach with a move that does more then 20% I guess?
glifer57: not very common if it even exists
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Ganon dair
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Though you can't really approach with it
glifer57: lol thats not an approach move =p but you can't even space that around up-b oos anyway so
glifer57: anyway do you see where I'm coming from
rlinear@stevenson.edu: You dislike removing weaknesses and instead feel that we should buff what bowser does well
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Correct?
glifer57: Hmm
glifer57: Kind of, except I don't actually have a problem with giving characters ways to work around their weaknesses even if it's not necessarily a buff to an area they excel
glifer57: Which is mainly what I was talking about with replacing charizard's nair with a sex kick
glifer57: it's a way to work around lack of aerial pressure by giving him a move with aerial range that is still jointed so he can't use it with impunity
rlinear@stevenson.edu: I see
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Well, jiang and strong_bad, along with myself, see this as giving bowser a way to work around the weakness of pressure rather than removing that weakness altogether
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Note that the armor can be toned down
glifer57: There's no way to counter it...how is it not removing the weakness
glifer57: Well
glifer57: If you tone down the armor to the point of uselessness theres no sense in it
glifer57: This is like literally all or nothing
rlinear@stevenson.edu: I'll admit that 20% HA is a bit ridiculous
rlinear@stevenson.edu: I was think lowering it to 16%
glifer57: I mean are there any moves in particular that do over 16% that will now be useful
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Ganon fair
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Does 17%, I think
glifer57: well I had already assumed heavyweights would counter bowers HA anyway >.> it was like the first thing I said that he would (hopefully, i guess) still lose to ganon and ike, lol
rlinear@stevenson.edu: He does
glifer57: I mean...think about it this way, I suppose. Even if you went to the extreme and toned it down to the point where only 1% moves are absorbed
glifer57: That's still saying "Hey, people with multi hit moves that do less than 1%. Basically...don't bother using that move against me, because the risk is outstandingly high".
glifer57: And that's an extreme example obviously but do you see how polarizing that can be?
rlinear@stevenson.edu: The whole notion behind the armor was to make it so that people had to be cautious when being aggressive against bowser
glifer57: But you're removing entire options from other characters
glifer57: They know they can't safely do blank so they will probably never do blank at all
glifer57: like you never see people trying to approach ICs shield in brawl
glifer57: because they will die lol
glifer57: it's the same design standpoint
glifer57: functionally different of course
glifer57: designed the same
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Well, how is Bowser HA different from invincibility on moves?
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Such as shine and his UpB?
glifer57: from a design standpoint, there is none. which is why you see invincibility so rarely.
glifer57: bowser has armor on like
glifer57: 8 moves?
glifer57: and his crawl
glifer57: not sure on the number, it'd be nice if you could tell me
glifer57: lol
rlinear@stevenson.edu: If HA is such a bad idea, and it's equivalent to invuln froma design standpoint, wouldn't that make shine OP too?
glifer57: shine is pretty OP...
glifer57: haha
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Well, on the surface, the HA and shine seem the same
rlinear@stevenson.edu: The HA, though, has some fundamental differences
glifer57: i mean think about it...every move with invincibility sees copius amounts of use in brawl because invincibility is so useful which is why people are so happy to have it lol
glifer57: and HA is obviously a gimped version of invincibility
glifer57: but dear god
glifer57: if you were putting invincibility on all his attacks instead of ha
rlinear@stevenson.edu: No, SA is a gimped versionof invuln
glifer57: HA is too >.>
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Not quite
glifer57: you take damage
glifer57: lol
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Because not only do you take damage, but it doesn't block everything
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Like SA does
glifer57: oh really o.o what doesnt heavy armor block? like...footstools?
glifer57: thats all I know XD
glifer57: oh
rlinear@stevenson.edu: HA can't block anything that does more damage than it can take
glifer57: you mean the % limit
glifer57: oh yeah
glifer57: ofc
rlinear@stevenson.edu: Yes
glifer57: sorry lol
glifer57: HA -> SA -> Invincibility is basically how the evolution chain goes, however they're all, from a design standpoint, doing the same thing for the characters that have them
glifer57: and HA aprobably has the biggest mental effect on the opponent just because they know they CAN beat it, but they purposefully have to avoid using certain moves in order to do so
glifer57: but thats not really important
glifer57: just an interesting addition[/collapse]

anyway if anyone actually reads that, maybe they will understand me better? idk.

i've always been saying I'm not a troll, but you guys are just a little too jumpy.