Project M Social Thread

[Rikana]

omg pew pew dont work

Are you saying Bowser's bAir can reflect projectiles? Also, I love your artwork.

Edit: Wouldn't jigs be able to pull off uThrow to rest on MK because he's a FF'er now?

 

[Rikana]

Edit: double post by accident. My bad.

 

[Sneak8288]

zss a faster faller or zss floaty? discuss

 

[humble]

zss a faster faller or zss floaty? discuss

I'd say fastfaller, her play seems like it'd be faster and better overall.

 

[iLink]

Wait wtf how did I miss that picture?? Does that mean he can reflect like Lucario's aurasphere or something?

 

[ConnorTheKid]

lol I asked Jiang the same question. Bowser can't reflect projectiles, he just has SA frames.

 

[ManEg]

I like Jiang's new way of foreshadowing stuff; very effective and entertaining xD

 

[iLink]

I approve of Jiang's methods of updating us.

 

[94teen]

I know someone was working on Zamus awhile ago, so depending on what changes may have been made, I think my answer might change also.

However, assuming that her gameplay remains more or less in tact, I think fastfaller would be better. That's mostly because I envision her as a Falcon/Mario style character, with Uair and ^B combos into >B or smashes or some such.

 

[genkaku]

Fast faller seems like it would push the dynamics of her play a lot farther. An all around better option.

 

[Kink-Link5]

From a few pages back.

i dunno is anyone really interested in project m zss? you might as well play shiek.

ZSS is more like Smash64 falcon. A lot more like him than like Shiek. The only thing the two have in common is a whip side B and comboing dash attack.

Also

Squirtle's pivot animation is better than a moonwalk IMO

Honestly having both seems very in tune to squirtle's character. Also; Diddy, MK, Game and Watch, and Lucario would seem fitting with moonwalks.

Speaking of that will Lucario have a good fastfall to fit with his steel/fighting typing and to look less like an inexplicable psychic type?

 

[GreenFox]

In this project is your goal to make it as much like melee as possible or are you going to balance characters that sucked in melee to do well in Project M?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In this project is your goal to make it as much like melee as possible or are you going to balance characters that sucked in melee to do well in Project M?

Try reading the second post mate.

 

[kaizo13]

i honestly can't see zss as a fastfaller (although she IS too floaty for P:M ) but really just lower her SH ......her SH height has always bothered me since vbrawl, same goes for toon link but he's good now i guess (Tink)

EDIT: wow GreenFox....are you really asking what the goal of the project is on page 751? lrn2read

 

[Hellsinglover999]

i honestly can't see zss as a fastfaller (although she IS too floaty for P:M ) but really just lower her SH ......her SH height has always bothered me since vbrawl, same goes for toon link but he's good now i guess (Tink)

EDIT: wow GreenFox....are you really asking what the goal of the project is on page 751? lrn2read

pft its only page 280 something if u put it to max posts per page lol

 

[stingers]

i can't really see falco as a fastfaller either...he's a low/mid weight BIRD...but we're used to it; who cares.

 

[Kix]

SA will help, but I like the idea of reflect! I wonder within a very specific window of Bair if he could reflect? I don't like the idea of just speeding up Bowser to make him competitive. I just got the impression that was most of the idea for him.

 

[Gindler]

He'll get better.

Link get even better? His UpB's already ridiculous and like...everything else

 

[ConnorTheKid]

I think ZSS would be good if she had something similar to Sheik/Marth although Marth might be too floaty.

 

[stingers]

we all know ZSS will be a slightly worse version of shiek in the end unless they go to great lengths to prevent that lol...her moveset is just built for it.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Hi guys, so I'm going to show you guys what we've been doing with Bowser for Project M. We didn't just want to speed him up and make him stronger, we felt like we had a great opportunity to give Bowser his own niche, and with extensive playtesting, I think that we can faithfully say that we've done a great job of balancing it and making it useful. What am I talking about? Heavy armor.

Despite the silly drawing above, Bowser does not reflect projectiles, but instead absorbs them on certain attacks.

Bowser has a light armor, which absorbs 7 damage, and a heavier armor which absorbs 20 damage. Many of Bowser's moves utilize these two armors, and some even alternate between armors depending on the move. Bowser retains his "tank crawl" from Brawl+ which gives light armor to Bowser's crawl/crouch, an example of a move with heavy armor, would be something like his Down Smash, which has Heavy armor on the first 3 frames, allowing Bowser to eat moves that he anticipates and counter attack. We did a lot of testing to make sure it's not too ridiculous, but remember this is not the final build. Everything you will see in the upcoming youtube videos are still subject to change.

Anyway, here are the vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQjG7XHM8Ms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNQTPcIdaiE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb47aQrddAE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US92syudYA4

 

[stingers]

LMFAO

I hope this is a joke.

Project M(inus), anyone?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Not a joke.

 

[stingers]

When you say extensive playtesting, you mean a few matches against your friends, right?

Heavy armor on moves literally changes the entire metagame. You're essentially turning Bowser into the Brawl DDD of Project Minus; a very effective counterpick character basically. Basically he will DECIMATE certain matchups (namely the ones he used to get ***** in, against fast combo characters) and then make him incredibly useless in other ones, like say vs. Ganondorf or Ike. I honestly don't know how you can justify that from a design philosophy...you guys are sure as hell keeping the "Top tier playstyle" intact for those characters, but you're completely polarizing the metagame...wow this is just...ugh.

Faith is incredibly low atm.

 

[Strong Badam]

there are many Melee Bowser players (read: like 3. since there are only like.... 3 bowser players in the world) who love the idea and think it'll bring challenging yet useful options to Bowser's game. this won't make him overpowered or make him decimate anyone; it will make a lot of his match-ups closer to even than the "lolgetraped" of Melee Bowser.

btw, in case any of you missed it, I put the application forum as a link in the second post.

 

[stingers]

of course it'll bring useful options to bowsers game, it's a ****ing broken attribute, have you ever wondered why heavy armor is so rare in the game as-is? i don't even know what you mean by "challenging" though, that's just like a flavor word to make it look like you know what you're talking about -,-

bowser is literally a fox counter. what can fox do to approach a crawling bowser? nothing, oh boy he'll just get dsmashed on approach all day. it'll be fun seeing fox mains time out bowsers in tournament just to win...

you say it won't make it overpowered because I guess it won't make him the best character, that much is true, but I sincerely hope that there are some serious, vocal opponents to this in your backroom because anyone who stops to think about this realizes just how polarizing of an idea this is, and nobody wants hard counters in video games, it's not fun at all.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

When you say extensive playtesting, you mean a few matches against your friends, right?

Heavy armor on moves literally changes the entire metagame. You're essentially turning Bowser into the Brawl DDD of Project Minus; a very effective counterpick character basically. Basically he will DECIMATE certain matchups (namely the ones he used to get ***** in, against fast combo characters) and then make him incredibly useless in other ones, like say vs. Ganondorf or Ike. I honestly don't know how you can justify that from a design philosophy...you guys are sure as hell keeping the "Top tier playstyle" intact for those characters, but you're completely polarizing the metagame...wow this is just...ugh.

Faith is incredibly low atm.

By extensive playtesting, I mean that we had melee pros like Warriorknight and Badguy (so-cal) test it for us. Did you watch the videos? Or are you too busy mashing F5?

Really, man, what do you do for a living to take a (FAN-MADE) game so seriously? All I see you do is make these long, condescending posts, as if YOU'RE entitled to dictate whatever we make. Guess what, we don't care. We saw your application, and it's just as dickish as the ones you post on here. Why should we listen to you? I mean, 1 minute after I posted my post, you replied, really, man? Really?

I have a job, I'm going to school and I'm trying to work my *** off to get somewhere in life, and occasionally I dabble in game design. What are you doing? Spamming the refresh button to a thread about a fan-game that really has no bearing on ANYTHING. None of this matters, so why do you act like it does? Why do you have to act like it's the end of the world if we don't do things the way you want? Do you know that people are getting burnt to a crisp for money, entire populations of rare species are getting eradicated, the ****ing world is ending, and all you care about is if we decide to have a little fun in a video game that we're making.

seriously, man. jesus.

 

[kaizo13]

i doesn't bother me that much...but i think personally i would prefer simpler buffs like idk...speed ups and better hitboxes? o.e

if you notice, most of the low tiers in Melee are low tier because most of their moves either have bad properties or they are simply too slow to keep up with fox/falco

Nothing wrong with experimenting...but yeah...the project is kinda taking a turn (can't believe i'm kinda agreeing with Stingers >>)

 

[stingers]

By extensive playtesting, I mean that we had melee pros like Warriorknight and Badguy (so-cal) test it for us. Did you watch the videos? Or are you too busy mashing F5?

I'm absolutely not surprised at all that bowser players are thrilled with the changes, believe me

Bitter ad hominem nonsense

Really, dude? I don't know what I did to you personally to make you so angry at me, calm the **** down. I'm giving you my opinion on this (horrendous) change, and you need to be a bit more professional...just like the rest of the WBR, can nobody handle criticism back there? Jesus christ.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

If you guys watch the videos (you guys saw it before you posted right? I mean, that's how you form a good opinion, you look at the presented evidence before you run your mouth..), you will see that the armor is only during certain moves at certain times; it's extremely difficult to abuse. In the sheik and fox matchups, bowser was struggling, and it wasn't because of the armor he was winning, rather it was just good playing.

and FYI, super armor is used a TON in fighting games now adays. SF4 has it, mvc2 has it, hell, this stupid MMO game my brother plays called 'dungeon fighter' has it apparently.

 

[TL?]

It's not like bowser has heavy armor on standing or falling. You can still combo him fine. I seriously doubt bowser will end up OP or as some goofy situational counter pick character. The P:M team is on top of their game. They gots this.

 

[stingers]

If you guys watch the videos (between two people brand new to the game who are merely experimenting and not at all fluent with all of the changes yet), you will see that the armor is only during certain moves at certain times; and when people finally learn what they're doing with it, you better believe it will be abused to hell and back. In the sheik and fox matchups, both 80-20 matchups in melee, bowser was struggling, as he should be, and yet even with hardly any experience with the moveset changes at all, he pulled ahead and won.

thanks, jiang.

@TL, blind faith is what will ruin this project. Of course he doesnt have heavy armor all the time (lol this would literally be Project Minus...); the fact he has such an abundance of it on a large amount of his moves that can absorb insanely high amounts of damage...priceless.

 

[BadGuy]

If you guys watch the videos (between two people brand new to the game who are merely experimenting and not at all fluent with all of the changes yet), you will see that the armor is only during certain moves at certain times; and when people finally learn what they're doing with it, you better believe it will be abused to hell and back. In the sheik and fox matchups, both 80-20 matchups in melee, bowser was struggling, as he should be, and yet even with hardly any experience with the moveset changes at all, he pulled ahead and won.

thanks, jiang.

Aw hell no, first off. Brand new to the game? Im a melee bowser veteran with 6 years of experience behind me, dealing with top tier characters like falco, falcon or sheik Ive been to 6 tournies, all 2nd place. Bowser's greatest strength is edge guarding, that's what won all of those matches, if you payed any attention.

Im very accustomed to the changes, ive been testing the armor since jiang came up with the concept. The reason why im not getting the armor frequently, is because ITS DIFFICULT. And good, it should be hard to do. If it doesn't take practice then that defeats the purpose of PM to begin with. And yeah, melee bowser was a piece of ****, that's why it was so **** hard to win back then. But bowser isn't ****ty any more, we evened the playing field. And to be fair, fox has ****ty recovery so keeping him off the stage is cake, regardless of melee or project m.

Another thing people fail to understand is that bowser can't be beaten the way you just walked all over him before. He's got armor and crazy defense, trying to beat him down isnt enough. Bowser's bigger, easier to grab, easier to gimp and spike. Everyone else should try and adapt to bowser for a change instead of the other way around.

 

[stingers]

Jiang just told me you've had the build for about 2 weeks, be honest badguy, can anyone be expected to fully master a character in 2 weeks? I know you're a melee bowser main so there are many things you're already used to, which is exactly why changing your established playstyle to adapt to your new options will take a lot of time.

 

[GameWatching]

a True one would be better

 

[iLink]

I really hate to complain especially about something I haven't even played yet but I can already see a lot of ways where this can go wrong.

I don't think I would mind as much if he didn't have it on his crawl. I think that is too drastic of a change for melee's gameplay. Exactly how many of his moves have armor?


EDIT: I love you GameWatching

 

[Gindler]

bowser is literally a fox counter. what can fox do to approach a crawling bowser? nothing, oh boy he'll just get dsmashed on approach all day. it'll be fun seeing fox mains time out bowsers in tournament just to win...

Grab?....there ya go

Or an attack that does more than 7 damage since it's light armor.

 

[kaizo13]

Jiang if you were including me in the "you guys" then just know that i'm not complaining about it being too good or strong. I'm simply saying that there's other ways of buffing our melee low tiers. Something that would fit more into Melee.

i don't know why....super armor just makes me think "Brawl"

 

[stingers]

[collapse=Pettiness of the WBR]jiangjunizzy: Hello good sir
jiangjunizzy: Do you have skype?
glifer57: hi
glifer57: no
glifer57: sorry
jiangjunizzy: Nah
jiangjunizzy: you gotta have skype
glifer57: but if you really want to like
glifer57: yell at me
glifer57: lol
jiangjunizzy: no
glifer57: you can call me
jiangjunizzy: i dont yell
glifer57: this will be funny oh boy
glifer57: do you want my telephone number?
jiangjunizzy: let's just talk then
jiangjunizzy: ya
jiangjunizzy: can i get your moms too
glifer57: uh
glifer57: no
jiangjunizzy: k
jiangjunizzy: btw
jiangjunizzy: so in reponse to the post you just made
glifer57: ?
jiangjunizzy: the bowser player has actually been a bowser main for 6 years and has been playing PM for last 2 months
jiangjunizzy: the sheik player just played PM
glifer57: right I get that he's a bowser main
jiangjunizzy: that day
glifer57: I know bad guy
jiangjunizzy: thats his first day
glifer57: and have the changes been in for 2 months?
glifer57: lol
jiangjunizzy: for a month
jiangjunizzy: we've been evolving the character
jiangjunizzy: but most of what you see there has been there for weeks
glifer57: I get that the idea has been floating around for a month, but has a playable build of bowser with heavy armor that he has been practicing with unchanged been out for a month?
jiangjunizzy: about 2 weeks
glifer57: alright so we've wittled it down from a month to 2 weeks in which a person was expected to fully master the nuances of a new system with a character he was already used to in melee (for...6 years as you said)
glifer57: you can't expect someone to be proficient so quickly
jiangjunizzy: what nuances
glifer57: the timing of the super armor, on which moves, effective use of it in gameplay
glifer57: it takes time
jiangjunizzy: yes
jiangjunizzy: what move
jiangjunizzy: looks overpowered to you?
glifer57: the idea of 3 frames of heavy armor on a dsmash that can absorb 20% is absolutely silly, especially because the dsmash isn't like melee dsmash where they can SDI out, brawl dsmash actually has a mini little suction towards the middle, only on initial hit can you really hope to SDI out and when it's being used as an anti air against approaches...its probably not even possible
jiangjunizzy: you can SDI out
glifer57: on initial hit you can SDI out...I've never actually seen anyone SDI out afterwards
jiangjunizzy: i dont see the correlation
jiangjunizzy: you just want to try it dont you
glifer57: ?
jiangjunizzy: i see where this is going
jiangjunizzy: you just want to go
jiangjunizzy: yo man im sick of just talking about this
jiangjunizzy: here just have a copy
glifer57: Im down to talk about this for as long as you want
jiangjunizzy: youre a clever guy
glifer57: If I wanted a copy I could just ask my friends in the BR
jiangjunizzy: i hate theory smash
glifer57: like jcaeser and rpsi
jiangjunizzy: its the stupidest ****ing thing ever
glifer57: Im not out to get you
glifer57: calm down paranoia agent
jiangjunizzy: what
jiangjunizzy: theory smash is worthless
glifer57: but matches of new players prove everything.
jiangjunizzy: matches of unexperienced players?
glifer57: unexperienced with the new build of the game, yes
jiangjunizzy: i dont agree
jiangjunizzy: if you try bowser yourself
jiangjunizzy: you will get *****
jiangjunizzy: trust me
jiangjunizzy: it takes a lot of practice to use him
jiangjunizzy: the best things about him arent even the armor
glifer57: ...fascinating
glifer57: what does me getting ***** with bowser have to do with anything
glifer57: you're really acting just petty right now
glifer57: lol
jiangjunizzy: (01:54:46) glifer57: but matches of new players prove everything.
jiangjunizzy: im not acting anything
glifer57: all I want is for this project to succeed
glifer57: that's all it is
jiangjunizzy: petty??
jiangjunizzy: look man
jiangjunizzy: u got 15000 posts
jiangjunizzy: you posted 1 min
jiangjunizzy: after i made that thread
jiangjunizzy: that post
jiangjunizzy: and you didnt even bother
jiangjunizzy: to watch the matches
glifer57: ...yes, i'm subscribed to the thread and I saw the update in the user cp
glifer57: and I've watched the matches
glifer57: everything is now confirmed to me
jiangjunizzy: and you constantly make these belittling posts in the thread
jiangjunizzy: like we owe you something
jiangjunizzy: that application you made
glifer57: ...what are you talking about
jiangjunizzy: i mean seriously?
glifer57: haha
glifer57: that was just a joke
jiangjunizzy: nah
glifer57: i dont expect to get in
glifer57: jiang you're really full of yourself if you believe I have started a grand master plan of constantly "trolling" the project m thread in order to...get a copy of project m early (how doe sthat even make sense)
jiangjunizzy: after i saw your suggestions on how to make charizard work in project m i lost all faith in any of your opinions
jiangjunizzy: absolutely no imagination
glifer57: what were my suggestions for that again? i felt like they were pretty good
jiangjunizzy: they were horrible
glifer57: right this isn't brawl ****ing minus lol
glifer57: and what about them were horrible
jiangjunizzy: you basically wanted to design charizard as if he was made by some underpaid japanese worker at hal labs 8 years ago
jiangjunizzy: well guess wat
jiangjunizzy: guess
jiangjunizzy: guess
glifer57: what does that even mean
jiangjunizzy: we gonna make this game cool
glifer57: lmao
jiangjunizzy: and different
jiangjunizzy: and i hpoe
jiangjunizzy: u get so mad
jiangjunizzy: your plan
jiangjunizzy: will not work on me
jiangjunizzy: im not giving you a copy
jiangjunizzy: i dont care how much you ask for it[/collapse]

don't even know what to say.

 

[Gindler]

Oh and super armor =/= heavy and light armor. Yoshi's always had heavy armor...

Super armor does make me think wario though...