Project M Social Thread

[Shell]

DK's Side-B is now a decent spike and aerial stall, while down-B has tremendous reach and some occasionally okay setups. They're both pretty useful.

 

[Deleted member]

With decreased endlag, I could see DK's ground pound being extremely useful in stopping rolls and spotdodges while setting up for nair, uair, or bair. The vBrawl version has nice range after all.

 

[Archangel]

I noticed some stuff has been done to Pit. He's finally going to be made into the best character in the game....like he should've been >_>.

I like Charzard and Ivy as well but I was wondering what's going on with Squirtle? Everyone just hates him I guess? Anyways no pools posted for Melee so I'm mad.

Also...700 Pages!??? ****!

 

[genkaku]

I've been asking about squirtle for a while. All I've heard is "he's broken."

 

[Strong Badam]

squirtle has very little work done on him so far. really pointless to ask about him atm since anything said about him could change within a few days.

 

[Archangel]

Gotcha. DK is looking pretty good though. I imagine you have something to do with this?

 

[iLink]

I don't know how much has been done with DK, but I was thinking maybe changing his dash attack into the roll he does in the Donkey Kong Country games. I wouldn't know how hard that would be to animate though but I figured it could be an improvement over his current one.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Is it possible to code Falcon's dash attack's momentum to carry over even when its done? Because Falcon was the only one who was able to instant wall jump out of it since the momentum carries him off the stage.

I just saw this while browsing for an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjPmU-6TAC0 edge cancel to instant walljump

That looks more like he edge-canceled a dair and then walljumped.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In other words:

So guys. What do you think should be done with a bunch of the Brawl characters? (This is a poor attempt to change the conversation topic from stupid crap)

This is older now I guess but I'd like to toss out a few things for ZSS. I was never a great or frequent melee players but I understand the mechanics on a pretty basic level, so yeah here goes.

- First of all, this might go without say, but her dair can't stay. Melee doesn't have stall-and-fall dairs and with good reason. They were a silly addition and serve as nothing more than really terrible laggy punishes. They have no place in a game like melee.

If you give her the Brawl- dair it looks a little silly and isn't actually very good except as an off-stage spike which ZSS already has. I was surprised at how little use I actually got out of it in Brawl-, even though I was really excited to play around with it. It also looks pretty dumb. I don't like a drill for her because an l-cancelled drill won't really combo into anything but jab and dash attack. Her kill moves are all aerials or too slow and I don't see you guys messing with that in Project: M too much, although you might.

My recommendation is that she be given a sweeping whip dair similar to MK, Pit Marth, with a speed somewhere in between the two and low lag. Maybe have the very end of the attack spike weakly or something, but it isn't necessary. The best part about this idea is that it gives her a real approach, which she doesn't really have in vBrawl. This might address her worst match-ups without affecting balance in any significant way overall.

- I suggest removing the momentum cancelling portion of down smash so that wavedashing is effective with dsmash.

- I'd like it if her Paralyzer Shot was more like Sheik's needles in that she can hold it an release it at any time or hold a charge by tapping shield. I'd also like it if she could jump while charging it (so that she can wave dash instead of finishing the charge).

- A lower short hop would be cool. It's a little high right now. I can't imagine that translating well to melee-style gameplay but I might be wrong here.

- Suit pieces will be pretty lame in melee. You might want to tone these down or even eliminate them.

- Side-b is too slow and kills too early, probably. I'm not even sure how well her current side-b would work in melee which is a more aggressive game. Side-b facilitates camping and encourages it, too. Maybe this move needs a more drastic change.

- Can she either have a real standard grab? Right now her grab is really bad and it doesn't fit into her style of play very well in vBrawl or any Brawl hack.

- Her jab has caused nothing but problems and is a huge balance issue in every Brawl incarnation. In vBrawl, it's really terrible in fights where it doesn't connect and an instant equalizer in match-ups that it does (she wins almost all of them because a 1 frame escape option is insane). I'm recommending you change the start-up to 2-3 frames and have it only hit twice, similar to Peach's jab, but only if she has a better grab. Her boxing game has to have something. In Brawl+ you can literall just spam jab on some characters and win.

That's it! Yeah I know ZSS has a small filesize. I'm just rambling.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

This is older now I guess but I'd like to toss out a few things for ZSS. I was never a great or frequent melee players but I understand the mechanics on a pretty basic level, so yeah here goes.

- First of all, this might go without say, but her dair can't stay. Melee doesn't have stall-and-fall dairs and with good reason. They were a silly addition and serve as nothing more than really terrible laggy punishes. They have no place in a game like melee.

I belive it's already removed

If you give her the Brawl- dair it looks a little silly and isn't actually very good except as an off-stage spike which ZSS already has. I was surprised at how little use I actually got out of it in Brawl-, even though I was really excited to play around with it. It also looks pretty dumb. I don't like a drill for her because an l-cancelled drill won't really combo into anything but jab and dash attack. Her kill moves are all aerials or too slow and I don't see you guys messing with that in Project: M too much, although you might.

Do you mean with her whip?

My recommendation is that she be given a sweeping whip dair similar to MK, Pit Marth, with a speed somewhere in between the two and low lag. Maybe have the very end of the attack spike weakly or something, but it isn't necessary. The best part about this idea is that it gives her a real approach, which she doesn't really have in vBrawl. This might address her worst match-ups without affecting balance in any significant way overall.

- I suggest removing the momentum cancelling portion of down smash so that wavedashing is effective with dsmash.
That seems like it would be a really effective counterattack option...almost too effective...

- I'd like it if her Paralyzer Shot was more like Sheik's needles in that she can hold it an release it at any time or hold a charge by tapping shield. I'd also like it if she could jump while charging it (so that she can wave dash instead of finishing the charge).
THIS.

- A lower short hop would be cool. It's a little high right now. I can't imagine that translating well to melee-style gameplay but I might be wrong here.

Her high short hop is kinda her signature. It makes her unique.

- Suit pieces will be pretty lame in melee. You might want to tone these down or even eliminate them.
Maybe make it so they are thrown as fast as turnips? idk

- Side-b is too slow and kills too early, probably. I'm not even sure how well her current side-b would work in melee which is a more aggressive game. Side-b facilitates camping and encourages it, too. Maybe this move needs a more drastic change.
Make it faster and weaker would be a good idea, making it more of a GTFO move than a kill move.

- Can she either have a real standard grab? Right now her grab is really bad and it doesn't fit into her style of play very well in vBrawl or any Brawl hack.
I don't know, her grab looks more natural to me..her grabbing with her hands is kinda weird since she doesn't use her hands for any of her moves besides jab, and even then she uses the butt of her gun mostly.

- Her jab has caused nothing but problems and is a huge balance issue in every Brawl incarnation. In vBrawl, it's really terrible in fights where it doesn't connect and an instant equalizer in match-ups that it does (she wins almost all of them because a 1 frame escape option is insane). I'm recommending you change the start-up to 2-3 frames and have it only hit twice, similar to Peach's jab, but only if she has a better grab. Her boxing game has to have something. In Brawl+ you can literall just spam jab on some characters and win.

I don't think it needs to be slowed down. It should just be a little more escapable in between each hit.

That's it! Yeah I know ZSS has a small filesize. I'm just rambling.

Comments in bold and stuff

 

[Sora-kun]

i like the D air idea.

for the down smash, can you just make it so it cancels SOME momentum? just to the point where it doesn't become stupid but she still slides a bit if she WDs into it?

 

[Wind Owl]

Your suggestions are noted, but we already have a lot planned for ZSS.

 

[.Fade]

Your suggestions are noted, but we already have a lot planned for ZSS.

Don't forget about the file size limit, it'll be looming over your shoulder =3 Recycle lines!

 

[Sora-kun]

So what's being planned for Ike? Anything drastic or are you leaving his move set mostly intact?

 

[Wind Owl]

Don't forget about the file size limit, it'll be looming over your shoulder =3 Recycle lines!

Trust me, I haven't. I have to do the whole **** thing in a hex editor.

 

[Pen_island]

Can luigi get his n64 dtilt back? Also, and this may be broken, but maybe luigi could get an upward trajectory on his uair like his 64 up air. I always thought luigis up air was redundant as he already has his fair to hit people away from him which hits above him slightly anyway. Mario can combo horizontally with his uair so why not give luigis uair the ability to combo vertically. Only problem is if it combos into his up b it would be broken.

 

[Shadic]

So what's being planned for Ike? Anything drastic or are you leaving his move set mostly intact?

Very little so far, honestly.

 

[Strong Badam]

Gotcha. DK is looking pretty good though. I imagine you have something to do with this?

Yeah, probably.

I don't know how much has been done with DK, but I was thinking maybe changing his dash attack into the roll he does in the Donkey Kong Country games. I wouldn't know how hard that would be to animate though but I figured it could be an improvement over his current one.

It'd be easy to animate, but we aren't going to.

 

[Shadic]

It'd be easy to animate, but we aren't going to.

It would be really cool though.

 

[Sora-kun]

Very little so far, honestly.

ah i see. hopefully he'll turn out to be more interesting than vbrawl ike where you jab and f air space until your opponent dies.

 

[stingers]

wtf @ all this

leave gaw the same

he *****

 

[Shadic]

ah i see. hopefully he'll turn out to be more interesting than vbrawl ike where you jab and f air space until your opponent dies.

Oh he will. Don't worry about that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Your suggestions are noted, but we already have a lot planned for ZSS.

Can you share anything? Specifically her grab? It's like 84 frames of pain... =(

Other than Lucas (I think) she's the only character with a tether grab that lacks a zair. She has all the drawbacks of a horrible tether grab but none of the benefits. Hopefully you guys have already considered that though and I'm just preaching to the choir.

 

[Sora-kun]

Oh he will. Don't worry about that.

lmao sweet. looking forward to it

 

[[TSON]]

Lucas has a zair, actually.

 

[Sora-kun]

doesn't his z air suck badly tho? i doubt he needs it honestly. it has like no range. link and samus = z air king and queen and everyone else can GTFO.


btw what's goin on with ICs? they getting wobbling back?

 

[Rikana]

Is it possible to edge cancel dash attacks?

EDIT: I guess it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlLATxoCU0I), but in Brawl only.

I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about Falcon in Melee. If you dash attack into the edge, even if you don't hit anything, you would carry your momentum over. As a result of this, you will fall off the edge and this is where you instantly push towards the wall into an instant walljump.

The video of edge canceled dash attack in Brawl looks interesting though.

That looks more like he edge-canceled a dair and then walljumped.

That's exactly what it is. Its an edge canceled dAir into an instant wall jump.. I didn't say anything wrong lol. Unless you misunderstood me; the video I linked to wasn't the example I was looking for.

 

[Wind Owl]

Can you share anything? Specifically her grab? It's like 84 frames of pain... =(

Other than Lucas (I think) she's the only character with a tether grab that lacks a zair. She has all the drawbacks of a horrible tether grab but none of the benefits. Hopefully you guys have already considered that though and I'm just preaching to the choir.

Actually, we haven't, and that's an interesting point. I'll keep that in mind.

As for the jab, how would you suggest fixing it?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

That's exactly what it is. Its an edge canceled dAir into an instant wall jump.. I didn't say anything wrong lol. Unless you misunderstood me; the video I linked to wasn't the example I was looking for.

I thought it was the example you were looking for. sorry

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually, we haven't, and that's an interesting point. I'll keep that in mind.

As for the jab, how would you suggest fixing it?

Like I said, it's a tough issue. On one hand, she has very little in the way of grounded escape options without her 1-frame jab but on the other hand, a 1-frame escape option on the ground automatically makes her jab the best option every time, which is not interesting gameplay and is probably too strong.

If it were up to me, I'd change the jab to be something a little more like Peach's jab, but with IASA frames for jab cancelling mix-ups. Comes out a little slower (2 or 3 frames) but connects every time. The second jab could have IASA frames for cancelling options but it isn't necessary.

So yeah, frankly a jab that always connects but comes out in 1 frame is too good. In Brawl+, ZSS can shield and jab almost everything and win. Make it come out in 2-3 frames and always connect, but make utilt have dramatically less lag and give her a real grab so that she doesn't suffer out of shield.

A drill dair might work really well with this, and she'd have a cool and balanced ground game.

EDIT: btw, making it escapable between each hit just makes it worthless. I don't know who suggested that but it's like that in vBrawl and her jab is terrible.

EDIT2: Was talking to a friend just now and he mentioned that down-b wasn't going to be very good, because it's pretty slow. Something to keep in mind. (I suggest giving her samus' up-b when she taps down-b how epic would that be? ... i'm totally half-joking right now)

 

[Chico113]

uh i have a question: will you guys be putting this in the homebrew browser? like brawl+?

 

[Wind Owl]

@Supermodel: We have plans for Dair (drill was thrown around as an option but I think we found something better) and we're definitely increasing the utility of her ↓B.

For the jab being broken, I think your concerns may be unwarranted. You can't jab OoS in Melee/PM because the shieldstun is a bit higher and shield drop is really slow. You can also crouch cancel it.

@Chico: Probably, but we haven't even come close to planning that kind of thing yet.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, they're considering for the main way of loading P:M once it's finished to be Riivolution, which is just on the Wii Menu.


@ Supermodel: Yeah, what Wind Owl said. Crouch Cancel > Zamus's 1-frame jab.

 

[Strong Badam]

Riivolution can also be launched via Homebrew Channel. A Homebrew Browser Project M app would just auto download Project M + Riivolution onto your SD card anyway.

 

[Glöwworm]

I forgot who, but one of the devs mentioned a installer but I think he was joking.

Spoiler

maybe

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'll only say this on the subject and then leave it alone, since you seem to have a good handle on things. :D

Say someone is in front of you, and you have a window in which you can hit them with something. A 1-frame move is always the best option, because it is the safest option. The lag on the end of the jab is basically non-existent so if it whiffs it doesn't matter. Dtilt is 5 frames, utilt is 3, and her other options are curreently too laggy to consider. But unless you need the range, the jab is always always always going to be your go-to button. It isn't so much that it's too powerful, it's more that it isn't interesting gameplay. There's just not a choice to be made, and that's not fun (and is probably slightly too good).

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Crouch cancel makes her jab virtually useless besides the damage it does. What's the big deal?

 

[OrlyMelee]

Im surprised nobody complained about zss fsmash yet.
and a normal grab for zss is actually a pretty good idea.

i think removing the armor pieces completely would be beter and could help reduce the filesize.

any discussions about letting zss transform back to samus just like sheik/zelda?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Say someone is in front of you, and you have a window in which you can hit them with something. A 1-frame move is always the best option, because it is the safest option.

The thing is, this is not necessarily true. If you have a window to punish something, you should be going for maximum punishment, not minimum risk (after all it doesn't matter how unsafe an option normally is if they're not in a position to punish it now). So it's possible that an uptilt might a better option than jabbing. It's not significantly slower and yields higher reward. It's still a very GOOD option, but not always best.

There's just not a choice to be made, and that's not fun (and is probably slightly too good).

As I've explained above, in context moves that are normally unsafe can become much better options than her 1 frame jab. It's obvious that changing ZSS's jab will change how she gets out of situations, but the same thing can be accomplished by making her other options decent choices instead

 

[stingers]

no, jab doesnt lead into anything whereas utilt and dtilt probably will.