Project M Social Thread

[Archangel]

I thought I was helping to kill this chat so I left for a few days.....and it got worse....O__O!


Anyways we all know what to expect from a Meleefied DDD and that is Epic amounts of ******ry and bull****! So you might as well skip straight to nerfs/changes.

I think his Grab should stay intact though. Perhaps make his shield grab slower. Make it more rewarding to get in close because god knows everyone will need it. Aside from that I can see DDD getting a Grab-death set ups on pretty much everyone. I don't even want to think about Minon edge guards lol.

If his Tilt's still stop projectiles then I don't see anyone approaching a Meleefied DDD ever. Not to mention his Unholy grab game. King DDD in theory is the best Meleefied brawl character by far. The reason I say "In Theory" is because the finish product isn't ready so until then all we can do is speculate based on what we know from Brawl/Brawl+. From what I envision though he's gonna be hell for everyone without a few tweaks.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Suggestion for G&W Buff -
Increase overall neutral B speed.
Make the initial trajectory adjustable.

Quote so this doesn't get lost on the last page.

 

[humble]

How about we make the move useable for something.

Think about this.
What if Jet hammer moved forward when you swung in proportion to how long it was charged, and what if it had higher shield damage?

It would still be gimmicky, but at least you could you know...hit someone with it.
Could even give it higher shield damage to make opponents not want to just block it when you do use it.

How about it is mapped to his side-B, and is like in the Kirby games, where he spins in a circle with his hammer out similar to the ICs side-B. Here is a demonstration, at :42 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pugZG1dfUU

 

[genkaku]

Quote so this doesn't get lost on the last page.

Better suggestion; remove the G&W completely, keep the Nair.
haha

 

[Sneak8288]

i think he needs a more combo friendly uptilt

 

[genkaku]

All I can envision is a very, very big Jigglypuff.

 

[Sora-kun]

But there's nothing to talk about. The only to keep this thread going at the moment, until something amazing happens, is to keep tl;dr-ing. Or just make mindless posts, like this one.

^ that's my point. why there's rly nothing worth noting to read in this thread and everyone now thinks it's overrun by idiots.

 

[humble]

Relevant reply to the point of the thread lacking substance currently, I'll just quote it.


[collapse=]

What would you like to discuss? Please, bring forth a topic which would promote discussion. We sit around and post random ideas because with our limited knowledge of the project, we can't discuss much about it, so much as we just ask alot of questions of the devs. If we do have something to discuss, it'll be something the devs have told us, which means they themselves already probably have a decision if they told us.

The things we know about the project are the things that the team has already taken a stance on, so we don't have much to discuss because irregardless of the discussion a decision was already previously reached. We could bug the devs with questions, and we will do it as oft as possible given the chance, however they'll tell us if they make any major updates to physics or anything, so we can only ask about the little details or character changes, which they either have plans for or they haven't begun working on it as of yet. So most of the time questioning proves fruitless, and so why not attempt to aid with creating concepts on how to make character changes that would make them work for P:M? Currently, unless you have something superior to suggest, we can either remain quiet and let the thread stagnate or post things bordering on spam and random ideas because we don't have any guidance or topics present.

What I'd suggest is that the Team members propose a topic for the public to discuss, and give input on. What the thread currently lacks is guidance because random posters aren't sure what to discuss- clear focus would probably help, perhaps for example suggest a character in need of improvement, strengths and weaknesses currently, what you hope to achieve, and then have people submit ideas and suggestions here, and team members as well as fellow posters would weigh in on the ideas and search through the many ideas and hopefully we might find one, or several, good ones that could help.

[/collapse]

 

[Sterowent]

hey, that spinning DDD doesn't look too bad, but it reminds me of WW charged spin a lot.

what if he pushed his opponents back with the force of the 'wave' of his mech hammer? i know, i know, WINDBOXES everywhere. maybe not...

well, maybe then dant's idea, and he leaves a very lightly lingering hitbox on the ground he covers, so if he did it backwards from a ledge, it could be a tricky one-time edgeguard, especially in teams, that's especially safe. likely, anytime else he probably wouldn't even need it because...uh, it's DDD. but just for kicks. and teams. and clearing out waddle dees/doos. he wouldn't stop once he hit his opponent, like Ike, and instead would simply charge right through.

 

[Sora-kun]

what if for ddd you slightly increase the chance of him throwing waddle doos and slightly decrease the chance of gordos. or just increase the chance of the former. then he has the laser puffs walking around and annoying the hell out/combo breaking more often?

idk i'm not a d3 player.

will his up throw be able to chain grab spacies?

 

[humble]

Just some random ideas...

As has been said, his down-B isn't very useful. How about instead his down-B has him create one of his minions right in front of him? Change his side-B to hammerspin, which is where he charges his jethammer, and when released he begins spinning like DKs up-B or ICs side-B. His neutral-B is changed as well; when he swallows something, his next attack will generate a star, for example if he eats Links bomb, and then jumps up and uses fair, he'll swing his hammer, hit Link, and a star will shoot forward after and strike him. The star on the attack following a swallow deals very little damage and almost no knockback, but moderate hitstun- it's purpose is so that he can better chain attacks, and combo attacks he normally wouldn't, like fair. However the effect is only for attacks that use his hammer, only one star for the next hammer attack following a swallow, and the effect does not stack- swallow as much in a row as you want, but only one star on the next hammer attack and then you must eat once more. Also when D3 spits out something in the form of a star, the knockback should be reduced, with little growth and hitting at a 60 degree angle.

D3's swallow star would be interesting, and with minions you better control you can provide yourself with food to use for the swallow star set-up.

The way it works:
when you enhale an item, you can press either down or A, press down and you swallow the item, press A and you spit out a star. If you swallow an item, you now have a swallow star stored. The swallow star automatically is ejected on the next hammer attack, however you can use bair or other attacks with impunity and you will still have the swallow star stored. Once you have a swallow star, don't waste it, but use it to start/extend combos, or link hits that you normally can't.

For example if you have a swallow star stored you could do:
Dthrow>ftilt (SS)>wavedash>grab>Dthrow>ftilt
Fthrow (SS)>grab>Dthrow>ftilt
Bair>ftilt (SS)>wavedash>grab>Dthrow>ftilt
Uthrow>fair (SS)>nair>utilt
Nair>jab1 (SS)>dair>hammerspin
Dthrow>Buuman trap>Dsmash (SS)>wavedash>grab>Dthrow>ftilt

The possible chains a swallow star allows is impressive and varied, and it is a unique way of powering up- by getting power from swallowing, it makes others with items weary to use them because if he eats it, he is more of a threat. Because he has to spawn a waddle Dee and then swallow it, it takes time to setup a swallowstar, and he can't do it under pressure. That means opponents will be more aggressive and approaching you, because they want to stop you from getting a swallow star.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just some random ideas...

As has been said, his down-B isn't very useful. How about instead his down-B has him create one of his minions right in front of him? Change his side-B (if possible) to D3 whistling and pointing, and any waddles currently out will perform a short dash in the direction he points. His neutral-B is changed as well; when he swallows something, his next attack will generate a star, for example if he eats Links bomb, and then jumps up and uses fair, he'll swing his hammer, hit Link, and a star will shoot forward after and strike him. The star on the attack following a swallow deals very little damage and almost no knockback, but moderate hitstun- it's purpose is so that he can better chain attacks, and combo attacks he normally wouldn't, like fair. However the effect is only for attacks that use his hammer, only one star for the next hammer attack following a swallow, and the effect does not stack- swallow as much in a row as you want, but only one star on the next hammer attack and then you must eat once more. Also when D3 spits out something in the form of a star, the knockback should be reduced, with little growth and hitting at a 60 degree angle.

D3's swallow star would be interesting, and with minions you better control you can provide yourself with food to use for the swallow star set-up.

I support all of this, but with these additions would we remove the stars from his Up-B landing?

 

[humble]

I support all of this, but with these additions would we remove the stars from his Up-B landing?

It'd be up to the descrestion of the devs-personally I'd say yes because it'd fit better and they don't do a whole lot for him anyway. You could give him a quake hitbox on landing instead of stars, where if they are grounded nearby they get hit like in vBrawl on his Fsmash.

I'm actually curious- can you L cancel King Dedede's up-B? It is a landing aerial hitbox like aerials, so having it L cancelable would be a huge boon.

 

[shanus]

im surprised nobody brought up minion control

for example, what if he only had waddle dees, and every time he say ftilts, the waddle dees attacks, every time he turns, etc. Or somehow map his downB to some form of waddle dee control?

 

[stingers]

you can't l cancel special moves

jeez, I go away and this thread turns to ****. I blame TSON

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just some random ideas...

As has been said, his down-B isn't very useful. How about instead his down-B has him create one of his minions right in front of him? Change his side-B to hammerspin, which is where he charges his jethammer, and when released he begins spinning like DKs up-B or ICs side-B. His neutral-B is changed as well; when he swallows something, his next attack will generate a star, for example if he eats Links bomb, and then jumps up and uses fair, he'll swing his hammer, hit Link, and a star will shoot forward after and strike him. The star on the attack following a swallow deals very little damage and almost no knockback, but moderate hitstun- it's purpose is so that he can better chain attacks, and combo attacks he normally wouldn't, like fair. However the effect is only for attacks that use his hammer, only one star for the next hammer attack following a swallow, and the effect does not stack- swallow as much in a row as you want, but only one star on the next hammer attack and then you must eat once more. Also when D3 spits out something in the form of a star, the knockback should be reduced, with little growth and hitting at a 60 degree angle.

D3's swallow star would be interesting, and with minions you better control you can provide yourself with food to use for the swallow star set-up.

The way it works:
when you enhale an item, you can press either down or A, press down and you swallow the item, press A and you spit out a star. If you swallow an item, you now have a swallow star stored. The swallow star automatically is ejected on the next hammer attack, however you can use bair or other attacks with impunity and you will still have the swallow star stored. Once you have a swallow star, don't waste it, but use it to start/extend combos, or link hits that you normally can't.

For example if you have a swallow star stored you could do:
Dthrow>ftilt (SS)>wavedash>grab>Dthrow>ftilt
Fthrow (SS)>grab>Dthrow>ftilt
Bair>ftilt (SS)>wavedash>grab>Dthrow>ftilt
Uthrow>fair (SS)>nair>utilt
Nair>jab1 (SS)>dair>hammerspin
Dthrow>Buuman trap>Dsmash (SS)>wavedash>grab>Dthrow>ftilt

The possible chains a swallow star allows is impressive and varied, and it is a unique way of powering up- by getting power from swallowing, it makes others with items weary to use them because if he eats it, he is more of a threat. Because he has to spawn a waddle Dee and then swallow it, it takes time to setup a swallowstar, and he can't do it under pressure. That means opponents will be more aggressive and approaching you, because they want to stop you from getting a swallow star.

im surprised nobody brought up minion control

for example, what if he only had waddle dees, and every time he say ftilts, the waddle dees attacks, every time he turns, etc. Or somehow map his downB to some form of waddle dee control?

Lol, nice one shanus.

 

[Dantarion]

Something like Ike's side B? That'd be neat. It'd open up a lot of options...
If you did that, could you switch to make the command side B and summoning small waddling things down B? That would make more sense.

Yes, with the ability to walk while charging, and swinging no matter what, not swinging when the enemy is in front.

I dont think it makes sense to change the inputs.

EDIT:
Just wanted to bring this up.
As a person who actually codes **** and worked on figuring out all the PSA commands.

Can people please try to suggest things that are instantly doable? Humbles idea may be "cool" but in terms of testing, we would have to put in literally hours of work into testing it.

So me, a lot of the best things in Project M are small tweaks to moves to make them more useful. Jet Hammer is a bad move for many reasons, but before we throw it out completely, id like to try to fix it into something better.

AlShanus, crouch should activate minion control for lulz.

 

[[TSON]]

Minion control + only Waddle Dees = Sex.
You guys better recognize.
obv.

Also no more warnings, I'm skipping straight to infractions from here on.

 

[Sterowent]

ah, but humble did bring it up, if only to augment his swallow idea. but more control over them would be pretty interesting considering you guys gave them regular interval attacks last i saw. with AI control greater than before, it's more possible than ever, i imagine.


humble, dare i say i like this swallow thing, or at least the idea of killing two birds with one stone: swallow being useful outside of 'sides and DDD having a new tool that isn't over-centralizing. but, then again, that second one might not be the case. when fighting characters like peach, diddy, and other DDDs it might be. gauging whether it's too much or unfitting is difficult in this case, but it's not too little, and the star is certainly in character.
blargh
edit: alright, so too involved on this front? if your idea is easy money, dant, that's probably the best so far without changing the thing entirely. it's still pretty easily telegraphed, though, yeah?

can't wait to see what you guys do with him, either way! so exciting

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Dedede....
wavedash+ftilt = spacing secks?

But I actually do like the idea of minion control.

 

[stingers]

ddd will probably have a slow wd like all other fatties...i wouldnt count on it

 

[humble]

im surprised nobody brought up minion control

for example, what if he only had waddle dees, and every time he say ftilts, the waddle dees attacks, every time he turns, etc. Or somehow map his downB to some form of waddle dee control?

I would agree that, if possible, emphasizing his minions more would be useful.

Okay, revisions to my D3 suggestions-

I still love swallow star, keep it.
Remap minion summoning to side-B, however he doesn't throw them, instead they appear next to him, and increase the max minions onscreen from 2-3. Remember that you can still throw your minions by pressing A while next to them.

Change his down-B to minion control; while B is held, your inputs, such as walking left or right, command all minions onscreen. If you press A, they will attack. Minion control is down B, Minion summon is side B, Swallow is B.

Important to note; you can use minion control while in attack lag, etc.

Dedede becomes a more complex and strategic character with these tools. Properly mixing minion control with the use of swallow stars means Dedede could create some extravagent comboes-with three minions at your control and one stunlock hit to chain, dedede is a character that you have to be wary of. In vBrawl what defined him was his great, but very two dimensional, grab game. I suggest making him oriented on proper placement and use of his minions- do you want to swallow the minion for a swallow star, or use it with minion control. A swallow star would allow you to combo, and cover attack lag with the star- however, minion control could combo as well, and you could use your minion to cover yourself as well- A minion probably covers better while a swallow star comboes better, but they both give you options, and are even better when you use both.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I would agree that, if possible, emphasizing his minions more would be useful.

Okay, revisions to my D3 suggestions-

I still love swallow star, keep it.
Remap minion summoning to side-B, however he doesn't throw them, instead they appear next to him, and increase the max minions onscreen from 2-3. Remember that you can still throw your minions by pressing A while next to them.

Change his down-B to minion control; while B is held, your inputs, such as walking left or right, command all minions onscreen. If you press A, they will attack. Minion control is down B, Minion summon is side B, Swallow is B.

Important to note; you can use minion control while in attack lag, etc.

Dedede becomes a more complex and strategic character with these tools. Properly mixing minion control with the use of swallow stars means Dedede could create some extravagent comboes-with three minions at your control and one stunlock hit to chain, dedede is a character that you have to be wary of. In vBrawl what defined him was his great, but very two dimensional, grab game. I suggest making him oriented on proper placement and use of his minions- do you want to swallow the minion for a swallow star, or use it with minion control. A swallow star would allow you to combo, and cover attack lag with the star- however, minion control could combo as well, and you could use your minion to cover yourself as well- A minion probably covers better while a swallow star comboes better, but they both give you options, and are even better when you use both.

I still love this idea to add more strategy to D3's game, but why stop at him?

G&W has a very 2-dimensional game (haha) that could be changed by focusing on his more bizarre moves and giving him new ones as well. An idea that was suggested for Unstoppabrawl was to give his Hammer strategy by making it go like this.

Starts at 8.
Keeps using 8 until contact, then changes to 7.
Then to 6.
Then to 5, etc... on every succesful hit.
When it passes 1 you go back to 9, but you only get 1 chance to hit with it.

So to use the move effectively, you need to keep getting the weak effects. Hammer effects could be changed of course to better fit that system.

Jigglypuff's game could be more focused on Sing, a move with pretty good potential imo. Rollout also has pretty good potential.

Heaps of characters could benefit from the extra depth to their gameplay.

 

[humble]

Yes, with the ability to walk while charging, and swinging no matter what, not swinging when the enemy is in front.

I dont think it makes sense to change the inputs.

EDIT:
Just wanted to bring this up.
As a person who actually codes **** and worked on figuring out all the PSA commands.

Can people please try to suggest things that are instantly doable? Humbles idea may be "cool" but in terms of testing, we would have to put in literally hours of work into testing it.

So me, a lot of the best things in Project M are small tweaks to moves to make them more useful. Jet Hammer is a bad move for many reasons, but before we throw it out completely, id like to try to fix it into something better.

Al

I dream big and think of the consequences later.

Hours of testing that turn out something more unique is superior to quick solutions.

Plus I love making more work for Dant <3

(By the way, I'm the crazy guy who wanted cuccos for Link, Dant's an amazing coder who's done a ton to help, so respect that guy, I'm the awkward babbling hobo of this thread)

EDIT: uh-oh, Must make contributing post! Uh, uh...G&W's judgement goes up in count on hit, and goes down if it misses! Base 1, 9 rolls over to 1. TSON, I'm contributing, spare me the ban hammer please! ; n;

 

[Sterowent]

well, how about when you signal your minions to act, they all do a small kirby slide or something, or the one nearest to you does it. controlling more than one at a time seems needlessly complicated otherwise. why not just give them a preset attack DDD would call on?

by the way, if ever we do run out of meaty topics, we should only be allowed to describe DDD poses. only this, nothing else

 

[Lawlb0t]

I wanna see jiggs, lol.

 

[humble]

well, how about when you signal your minions to act, they all do a small kirby slide or something, or the one nearest to you does it. controlling more than one at a time seems needlessly complicated otherwise. why not just give them a preset attack DDD would call on?

by the way, if ever we do run out of meaty topics, we should only be allowed to describe DDD poses. only this, nothing else

Press A while using minion control, they attack. (by the way, the obv. animation used for minion control is Dedede's crouch.)

I call the big gay dance! Final smashes ftw.

 

[humble]

I wanna see jiggs, lol.

Go to google.com, click images, then type in 'jigglypuff' and click search. Provided you have working eyes and a computer with a screen, then you will get what you want.

Actually, are you guys changing the rest GFX? Are we getting Melee pound back?*Will uthrow to rest still work?

EDIT: unintentional doublepost ftl.

 

[shanus]

please don't double post.

Regarding dant's post on coding, please be considerate of what is truly feasible all. Thanks to TSON, we can manipulate article commands on the fly, but its still entirely limited, so don't get to change savvy with ideas. Simple, elegant solutions work best, and are the most natural as well. Minion control is a fun idea, but improving jet hammer is also a possibility. For example, consuming items (such as minions) could "power up" the jet hammer and remove its need to be charged. The more he eats, the more powerful the swing. Things like that, for example.

 

[Deleted member]

This has probably been mentioned before, but I think turning his down-B into a turnip like thing would be pretty cool, except his "turnips" can be pulled out of the air (like link's bombs). I'm pretty sure the coding for that wouldn't be as difficult (but what do I know).

The electric waddle-D would be like the dot turnip, and the spikey thing could be like a stitch-face.

 

[Sora-kun]

make his jet hammer able to hit his minions away for an attack.

or no. i'm not rly good with ideas like this.

 

[[TSON]]

That's been in for a while already, actually. It's just that people have a hard time aiming it.

 

[Sora-kun]

That's been in for a while already, actually. It's just that people have a hard time aiming it.

oh lol. sorry i didn't know D:

uhm how about.. the ability to aim the hammer up so it hits your opponent straight up and sets up a juggle? if he used it in mid air it might work better for juggling than up air. but then again it has long ending lag..

 

[OrlyMelee]

dedede eating his minions and spit them out like a star like he does with other players.

 

[GwJ]

Lol at the people making detailed combos of a character they have no clue on now.

 

[humble]

dedede eating his minions and spit them out like a star like he does with other players.

I'd agree with Orly, it's a good idea.

When DeDeDe Inhales an item/minion, he should have two options; press A and spit it out as a star, same as with a player, though the item/minion does not reappear. Secondly, press down and swallow the minion/item.

For DeDeDe in P:M, I would say that the swallow star could be made, isn't extraneously difficult, and would be a great way to enrich DeDeDe's play.

How is waddle Dee/Doo's AI built? I have a really crude base method for how
you could make them do various things; in vBrawl, waddles served as projectiles, and as shields from enemy projectiles. What roles would you like them to play in P:M?

I know it's another outrageous and unnecessary idea that wouldn't fit in P:M, but you could make a DDD moveset which had minions as the focal point, being that DDD has always delegated to his minions and he's the lazy king who prefers his minions do the work.

Lol at the people making detailed combos of a character they have no clue on now.

The people? It was just me, so you could say this more directly aimed at me.

And no, those weren't actual comboes in P:M, they were fictional examples to help illustrate my point.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Wait a minute...

A character centered around throws and minion shenanigans?

Dedede would be like a fat, penguin version of Carl Clover. >.>

I think I approve.

 

[Lawlb0t]

Is Ganons' bulge going to make a return?

 

[humble]

Wait a minute...

A character centered around throws and minion shenanigans?

Dedede would be like a fat, penguin version of Carl Clover. >.>

I think I approve.

Yeah, you approve until he catches you in a clap loop...

(But yes, I like it too haha)

To the P:M team, I know that you guys prefer the changes to be as minor as possible and to enhance what the character already has, and minimize the required work amounts to streamline the process and Melee-ify what already is there, and not something new.

However, enhancing Dedede's stage control, tech chase, and combo game all make for a more satisfying and deeper character- He retains his greatest aspects from Brawl, his great throw game, his aerials and tilts, what I am suggesting be changed is his specials, which were his weakest aspect comparatively. Good Dedede's didn't use inhale or jet hammer often, and with good reason. Why not change inhale, enhance his game by encouraging it's use. in vBrawl the mechanic had no reward when used, but swallow stars are a great incentive to utilize his inhale and if he can spit his minions as stars, he'll gain access to a better projectile and be encouraged to use it. With his waddle toss I just suggest you make it better by allowing three minions, and placing them near instead of automatically throwing them. And sure, I think it's perfectly plausible to remove his worst special in order to allow an extension of one of his others to it's fullest. Minion control is an extension of his waddle toss- It is just enhancing a part of his game already present, which is what you guys prefer to do. So none of the changes are Brawl- level, they are all just ways to enhance his current play.

If minion control is too much and is seen as overboard, I completely understand. I think starshots could work as a unique kind of buff to his play, but once again if it is too major, then so be it.

As you know, I'm extremely liberal with ideas and what can be changed, in my opinion, if it plays better and is more fun, then it was successful. Obviously you have to judge to make sure it fits the character, that it enhances depth, and that it helps push them towards the kind of play you outlined in your mission statement.

However on these particular suggested changes, so far I've received nothing but positive feedback, and minor irritation from Dant because I exist only to make his job harder.

Spoiler

lol <3 coders, sorry I can't suggest anything easy~

 

[Sora-kun]

but if he's busy controlling his minions wouldn't that make him a sandbag while he's doing so?
wouldn't fox/falcon/anyone faster than bowser tear him apart while he's doing it? wouldn't you need to increase the amount of hits his waddle ****ers take so they last more than 2 seconds? would you be able to combo the waddle ****s? grab? i'd like to see a wombo combo on a gordo. that'd be fun.

oh how would he control the gordo? like a demonic heat seeking missile with death instead of explosions?