Project M Social Thread

[.Fade]

In short:

No replacing characters.
No auto-canceling.
Fox only.
FINAL DESTINATION.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Wall Of Text

The reason is to give another degree of control to the player. Sakurai tried to eliminate that and give us auto-cancelling, and it was a very poor substitute.

For AC to work, it forced you to land at a certain place in the animation and might mean not fast falling and leaving yourself open.
Also, thanks to sketchy programming, not all aerials can be AC'd. Snake's Bair, Dair, and many of Ganon's aerials come to mind.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

In short:

No replacing characters.
No auto-canceling.
Fox only.
FINAL DESTINATION.

If someone had said this earlier, the total page count for this topic would be decreased by, like, 5 pages (at highest post count).

 

[Plum]

I see that argument for unforeseen elements causing you to miss L-cancels, and it *almost* makes sense. It's close. But consider this: what you do after an L-cancel requires timing, too. So in the same way that I might miss an L-cancel because of a shield angle, I might also try to shine too early with Fox and miss that, even if the d-air auto-cancels. There are multiple timings involved. Removing L-canceling wouldn't remove the element of precise timing.

And that argument is still an attempt to make it sound like hitting every L-cancel is some impossible feat which gives you automatic follow-ups because you're just that technical. Most solid players hit nearly every L-cancel. I do. Lots of people do. It's not that difficult if you've been playing the game competitively for the last 5 years. But L-cancels alone don't make aggression/approaching safe. Fox has the fastest attack sequences in the game, next to Peach's float-cancels, and do you see Fox and Peach playing all-out aggro? No. They camp more than most any other character in the game, for other reasons as well. But even L-cancels don't guarantee a follow-up, and they don't make your approach safe--just as safe as it can be. You still have to space well/perfectly, or you'll get shield-grabbed.

L-canceling consistently doesn't make anyone a pro. It's not really even part of it. It's assumed. Pros are great because of their spacing abilities, far more than because of their technical proficiency. The best characters in the game are fast and can space better than the others. What happens when you have a character who can space but isn't fast? You get Ganondorf. What happens when you have a fast character who can't space? You get Pikachu (although he's tiny and has powerful attacks so he cheats a little).

Point is, it's a nice try. There's some merit to the argument. But it isn't enough.

I'd argue it somewhere else if there were a better place for it, and if I weren't getting bored because it doesn't really concern me because I'll never play Project M anyway because my Wii is broken and I'll never have any motivation to get it fixed. But people started to give credit to that argument, and therefore to think there was a real justification for L-canceling. But there isn't.

I'mma give this my best FroHo.
*Ahem*

Are you seriously trying to argue against L canceling?
That's so ****ing stupid, and I can give you one reason:
Project MELEE

We want the rich technically demanding gameplay that MELEE gave us but inside the Brawl universe.
It's really as simple as that.
You could give us a thesis on why L canceling adds nothing to the game and you would still be getting nowhere because this is supposed to feel so close to Melee that switching between the two is seamless. In order to enhance that seamless feel you need L canceling.

/trolling

 

[Shadic]

That was too nice for FroHo. And done in too neat of English. 8/10, though.

Seriously. The point is that the game plays like Melee. ATs included. I don't think we're trying to take out any ATs, but a few minor ones are to be added.

 

[[TSON]]

You have to move your feet to walk. You can give a million reasons why this is pointless, you could be right, too. But you still need to move your feet to walk.

/alsotrolling

 

[iLink]

The reason is to give another degree of control to the player. Sakurai tried to eliminate that and give us auto-cancelling, and it was a very poor substitute.

For AC to work, it forced you to land at a certain place in the animation and might mean not fast falling and leaving yourself open.
Also, thanks to sketchy programming, not all aerials can be AC'd. Snake's Bair, Dair, and many of Ganon's aerials come to mind.

For the record, the only aerial that ganon can't auto cancel is fair

 

[Ryuker]

You have to move your feet to walk. You can give a million reasons why this is pointless, you could be right, too. But you still need to move your feet to walk.

/alsotrolling

If I could use only my mind to move forward I would .

 

[bleyva]

give me time plz !

wow, no reponses? k, fine....

THIS IS ****ING AWESOME

 

[Sneak8288]

LOL @ removing L cancelling argument... Lazy ****s. LRN2PRESSBUTTONS

 

[Wavebuster]

I see that argument for unforeseen elements causing you to miss L-cancels, and it *almost* makes sense. It's close. But consider this: what you do after an L-cancel requires timing, too. So in the same way that I might miss an L-cancel because of a shield angle, I might also try to shine too early with Fox and miss that, even if the d-air auto-cancels. There are multiple timings involved. Removing L-canceling wouldn't remove the element of precise timing.

I don't remember anyone saying it was *the* element of timing of the game, just another one of them. It adds another layer of depth to the flow of the game.

And that argument is still an attempt to make it sound like hitting every L-cancel is some impossible feat which gives you automatic follow-ups because you're just that technical. Most solid players hit nearly every L-cancel. I do. Lots of people do. It's not that difficult if you've been playing the game competitively for the last 5 years.

You're probably one of those people who believes one can properly "react" to something that happens in 6 or fewer frames. It's not even humanly possible to L-cancel when using aerials with <8 frame hit confirmations before the L-cancel timing, which is every aerial you will be using right before landing on the ground unless you're Peach. The most obvious example I can give where this happens is Ganon's Dair if he decides to hit your lower body with it. If it hits, he can easily L-cancel from the large hitlag. If it doesn't hit, well the player can't react to that and he's wide open.

tl;dr It's not humanly possible to land every L-cancel when you want unless the opponent is standing there gormless letting themselves get hit by every aerial. There are multiple timing variables which will in turn mess up your timing beyond what you can do to compensate.

But L-cancels alone don't make aggression/approaching safe. Fox has the fastest attack sequences in the game, next to Peach's float-cancels, and do you see Fox and Peach playing all-out aggro? No. They camp more than most any other character in the game, for other reasons as well. But even L-cancels don't guarantee a follow-up, and they don't make your approach safe--just as safe as it can be. You still have to space well/perfectly, or you'll get shield-grabbed.

Again, no one ever said L-cancels alone make the flow of battle. Although Fox and Peach can play aggro, the fact remains that they themselves control the flow of the match with their weaving abilities and projectiles which often force the opponent to chase them, putting them at an instant advantage. It's not because their aggro is ineffective, per say, it's because outcamping someone is a consistently winning strategy that has little direct correlation with L-canceling. I would sincerely disagree with L-canceled aerials not guaranteeing your safety in most cases. If they connect just a few frames before landing, a successfully L-canceled aerial will almost always give you frame advantage over a shield grab if it's not excessively laggy.

L-canceling consistently doesn't make anyone a pro. It's not really even part of it. It's assumed. Pros are great because of their spacing abilities, far more than because of their technical proficiency. The best characters in the game are fast and can space better than the others. What happens when you have a character who can space but isn't fast? You get Ganondorf. What happens when you have a fast character who can't space? You get Pikachu (although he's tiny and has powerful attacks so he cheats a little).

It's the same exhausted point you are using over and over.

Players who can do nothing but space simply get Fsmashed all day. "Playing smart" is a huge part of any fighter, and there's a lot more to that than just spacing. You can't possibly undermine the importance of technical skill when it comes to executing specific combo strings or just other sensitive moves in general that no other move of that character can provide with similar benefits. Silent Wolf is probably the poster child of someone who thrives on technical skill mostly, and it shows.

 

[GP&B]

GameWatching, you are full of awesome. I can't wait to see it finished.

 

[Dantarion]

I'm tired of watching people argue who aren't even involved in the project.

I'll go back to holding up all of the progress by having a life today.

*goes to the beach with family*

 

[Wind Owl]

Laaaaaaaaaaaame

 

[CountKaiser]

This again?

Look, however pointless L-Canceling may be, it's not going anywhere because the project is supposed to emulate melee, and it needs l-canceling in order to do that.

 

[Shadic]

Dant, if you weren't so fantastic, we'd all hate you.

But turns out you're fantastic, so go have fun in your Oil Ocean Zone.

*Shadic knows that the Gulf of Mexico and Pacific Ocean are two entirely different things.*

 

[GP&B]

How fortunate that he lives in Cali >_>.

And just when I was having so much fun bashing Atlantic coast beaches, that had to happen to the Gulf coast beaches...

 

[Archangel]

I am/was a scrub in melee so I need all the help I can get

We get it.

 

[Sneak8288]

We get it.

QFT LOL

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe L-Cancelling could have more difficult timing, so that even the best players aren't able to get it every time. Eg: in smash 64, l-cancelling is INCREDIBLY easy, melee not as much.

 

[humble]

I'm tired of watching people argue who aren't even involved in the project.

I'll go back to holding up all of the progress by having a life today.

*goes to the beach with family*

D:

Guys, we're here to support, hype, and discuss the project and give input- let's make this a discussion, not a debate. I don't want to upset the devs and I want us to continue to put our ideas on the table, but can we do it in a less aggressive manner? Don't argue with anyone, if you have a point or counter-point to add to the discussion, do so in a logical manner that is relative to the discussion; don't insult posters, don't post negative comments, just continue to post, but in a helpful manner, not in an argument or rude tone.

Dant, I'm sorry that we've upset you, for (most of us) that was not our intent. I hope you enjoy the beach, and don't let this project or anything else get in the way of your life or what you want to do; you've got one shot at life, and once a moment is gone you never get it back. So go have fun, and we'll still be here waiting for you when you get back. Have fun!

Dant, if you weren't so fantastic, we'd all hate you.

But turns out you're fantastic, so go have fun in your Oil Ocean Zone.

*Shadic knows that the Gulf of Mexico and Pacific Ocean are two entirely different things.*

Shadic, are you back in Portland? If so, let's organize a smashfest sometime soon, or meetup at a tourney.

+1 for sonic references.

 

[Jam Stunna]

This again?

Look, however pointless L-Canceling may be, it's not going anywhere because the project is supposed to emulate melee, and it needs l-canceling in order to do that.

He's kind of a hybrid of Young Link and Toon Link at the moment. He's got the old Nair Sex Kick, but is keeping his Toon Link Bair. Dair doesn't "stall&fall" now, either, but has the Fire-Spike.

That doesn't sound very Melee-like. Also, last time I checked, aerial glide-tossing wasn't in Melee either.

Basically, it's a really poor argument to say that l-canceling is being included because it was in Melee, when alot of things that are being included weren't in Melee (and there are presumably things that were in Melee that will not be replicated in P:M).

I have the utmost respect for this project, and I think the developers are doing wonderful, amazing work. In the end, it's their project, so they can do whatever they want with it. However, I believe there are compelling arguments against l-canceling, and they're being dismissed out of hand. That's a real shame, and reflects some of the more negative dogmatic attitudes of the Melee community.

 

[Magus420]

You're probably one of those people who believes one can properly "react" to something that happens in 6 or fewer frames. It's not even humanly possible to L-cancel when using aerials with <8 frame hit confirmations before the L-cancel timing, which is every aerial you will be using right before landing on the ground unless you're Peach. The most obvious example I can give where this happens is Ganon's Dair if he decides to hit your lower body with it. If it hits, he can easily L-cancel from the large hitlag. If it doesn't hit, well the player can't react to that and he's wide open.

tl;dr It's not humanly possible to land every L-cancel when you want unless the opponent is standing there gormless letting themselves get hit by every aerial. There are multiple timing variables which will in turn mess up your timing beyond what you can do to compensate.

You don't need to react though. For the d-air example if you l-cancel when the hitbox first comes out that single input would work on hit or whiff since if you l-cancel during hitlag the timer doesn't start counting until after it ends. Also, l-cancels are spammable in Melee (64 too I think) so you could also press Z->R/L around 7 frames apart to work through pretty much any scenario with a near doubled l-cancel window.

 

[Archangel]

Chill Humble its not that serious. He was likely going to the beach already anyway

I don't mean to be rude but I just get annoyed over time when someone won't shut up about an idea that has been talked about and decided upon Months ago....That and the fact that they constantly ignore everyone else's point and keep spamming the same(My logic is undeniable)kind of posts.makes me wanna punch an ugly baby after awhile.

 

[Shadic]

I have the utmost respect for this project, and I think the developers are doing wonderful, amazing work. In the end, it's their project, so they can do whatever they want with it. However, I believe there are compelling arguments against l-canceling, and they're being dismissed out of hand. That's a real shame, and reflects some of the more negative dogmatic attitudes of the Melee community.

They're being dismissed entirely because this conversation has come up several different times in several different projects. Nothing that has been brought up hasn't already been said before, and a lot of the developers for Project M (myself included) have been in the Brawl Hacking scene for over a year and a half now.

Shadic, are you back in Portland? If so, let's organize a smashfest sometime soon, or meetup at a tourney.

Unfortunately, nah. I'm in Portland come September, though.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Well weren't they dismissed entirely in the beginning as well?

 

[jalued]

ive been on holiday for 2 weeks, so wondering if anyone could summerise what has happened since i left, and what the title is all about please


thanks

 

[Glöwworm]

That doesn't sound very Melee-like. Also, last time I checked, aerial glide-tossing wasn't in Melee either.

Basically, it's a really poor argument to say that l-canceling is being included because it was in Melee, when alot of things that are being included weren't in Melee (and there are presumably things that were in Melee that will not be replicated in P:M).

I have the utmost respect for this project, and I think the developers are doing wonderful, amazing work. In the end, it's their project, so they can do whatever they want with it. However, I believe there are compelling arguments against l-canceling, and they're being dismissed out of hand. That's a real shame, and reflects some of the more negative dogmatic attitudes of the Melee community.

You have to realize that this will not be Melee. This will be Melee 2.0

Let's put it this way. P:M will be the true successor to Melee. If you look at Smash 64 and Melee, it's almost like Melee to Brawl. The changes in gameplay are way too drastic. P:M will feel and play almost like Melee but it will also contain other changes that weren't in Melee. You shouldn't expect game sequels to be exactly alike like its predecessor (just look at smash 64 and melee; the differences in them are like night and day). But i'm not sure if it's correct to call Project: M Melee's sequel.

Either way, it's meant to be Melee 2.0, not Melee.

 

[The_Guide]

ive been on holiday for 2 weeks, so wondering if anyone could summerise what has happened since i left, and what the title is all about please


thanks

Take a look at the thread title. Thats pretty much the biggest thing.

It turned out that stuff from melee's code perfectly translated into Brawl.

 

[jalued]

Take a look at the thread title. Thats pretty much the biggest thing.

It turned out that stuff from melee's code perfectly translated into Brawl.

so what has it allowed the programmers to achieve?

 

[iLink]

@ Jalued: They ripped the character's physics from melee and were able to apply them to brawl's.

 

[jalued]

They ripped the character's physics from melee and were able to apply them to brawl's.

so all the characters physics are perfect??

 

[Wind Owl]

Except traction, yes.

 

[jalued]

Except traction, yes.

wow i bet that has sped up the project alot. Landing detection any closer? sorry for all the questions, but i missed out on alot

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, all the characters that were in melee have the exact programming and physics and whatnot of their melee counterparts. So not all of their moves and stuff are done yet, but their gravity and run speeds and all that is exactly like melee. At least that's what I gather.

EDIT: Always feels good to be ninja'd by someone more knowledgeable than you are.

 

[Archangel]

Well weren't they dismissed entirely in the beginning as well?

No. I joined Smashboards so I could learn how to hack my wii because a friend told me that he found a way to turn off trips, have hitstun, L-cancel, and wavedash...etc. That arguement was on the same page I made my first couple of posts. That was December of 08 which was over a year ago as Shadic said. The fact is most bralw players are satisfied with Brawl and most Melee players are satisfied with Melee. If you are going to grab ones attention you have to make something that is better then what they already have to the point where they can't be satisfied by not having it. Brawl+ was on the fence but ultimately decided to take the dumbed down route as a result the game got no where on a large scale. Its peak was probably pound 4 in which case most of the people who entered stopped playing to focus on Melee, Brawl, or they simply got bored of it.

Since this Project is taking the Melee route hence the name... Then it has to appeal to that particular audience. Melee people love difficulty because of he rewards both crowd reactions and personal feelings of accomplishment. Auto anything just takes away from that. Nintendo took the scrub-elimination stance on the whole system not just Brawl. Seeing the competitive or challenging games that I grew up with(Smash included) turned into games that my grandparents can play easily is rather disgusting to me.

ive been on holiday for 2 weeks, so wondering if anyone could summerise what has happened since i left, and what the title is all about please


thanks

New Trailer, New physics because they cracked melee DAT files. 3 Matches uploaded showing the new physics, and 1 video showing a demo of most of the melee cast in the new(technically old) Physics

 

[94teen]

so all the characters physics are perfect??

Just about. If I understand correctly, knockback and friction both need to be tweaked, but other than that, the characters should play just like melee. Watching clips from before and after this data was available, it's shocking how noticeable the differences are.



So, on topic. What's going to happen with Wario? Honestly, he seems like the least melee-like character in the cast. Only character I can think of who would play even remotely similarly is Peach, seeing as how she's floaty and relatively heavy (I think), but her play style is so unique that I don't really feel like it's a reasonable comparison.

Has anything been discussed regarding what can be salvaged and what might have to be scrapped or heavily modded to make wario work?

 

[GP&B]

wow i bet that has sped up the project alot. Landing detection any closer? sorry for all the questions, but i missed out on alot

Here jalued, see it in a demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcjQUzAYjCU

 

[Shadic]

Well weren't they dismissed entirely in the beginning as well?

No. In fact, different decisions were made for different projects. Brawl+ lacks L Canceling, but had it at one point. Put together, I think the conversation about L Canceling has literally gone on for weeks.

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[jalued]

New Trailer, New physics because they cracked melee DAT files. 3 Matches uploaded showing the new physics, and 1 video showing a demo of most of the melee cast in the new(technically old) Physics

link to new vids?