Project M Social Thread

[Galt]

L-Cancelling allows characters (particularly Ganondorf) who have higher aerial landing lag to stand a chance against otherwise much faster and, statistically speaking, superior characters. While it can be viewed as a "useless dexterity tax" it widens the skill gap between novice and professional players and obviously provides more competitive depth. Take marth for example; there is so many more advantages with Marth's Shffled fair (which has practically no lag) to Marth's Shffed fair (which has a delay before the next attack).

Also, Smash is unlike any fighting game, and that is a fact I truly admire the series for. So it should have its own unique ATs such as L-Cancelling, which (as stated prior) has many advantages.

See, that makes no sense. Ganondorf wouldn't be any slower than he already is, by my argument. You just don't have to hit the button anymore. No L-cancel. Ganondorf is just fast. All the time. No more missing the L-cancel on the thunderdrop and screwing the one chance you had at a kill on that Falco player.

It does widen the skill gap. Completely artificially. It's not actually adding any competitive depth; it's just making it harder to actually utilize that depth, because some people just won't be able to do it well. Because we decided they shouldn't be able to. For no good reason.

People have this idea that "advanced" techniques are good, which I think is because Melee is great and Brawl (which was super-simplified) is terrible. But I don't need those things. If I could wavedash with a single button-press instead of buying a new controller every time I ruin another R-trigger, I'd do it in a second, and it wouldn't actually remove anything from the game. You'd still have to be able to use it well, which is the whole point. I, like my compatriot who posted a few pages back, have shaky hands, especially in tournament settings. I'm tired of blowing important wavedashes. I live with Xelic (the Melee Peach master) and we fight most every day, but man, if I were to go to a tournament tomorrow, I guarantee I'd airdodge myself into a hole. Twice.

Edit: Masky, that would be a little understandable I guess (although it's still a rather small element) if we were talking about Melee. But this is a new game. There are other, much simpler solutions which can be coded into landing lag and such, which don't require me to wreck my controllers.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

See, that makes no sense. Ganondorf wouldn't be any slower than he already is, by my argument. You just don't have to hit the button anymore. No L-cancel. Ganondorf is just fast. All the time. No more missing the L-cancel on the thunderdrop and screwing the one chance you had at a kill on that Falco player.

It does widen the skill gap. Completely artificially. It's not actually adding any competitive depth; it's just making it harder to actually utilize that depth, because some people just won't be able to do it well. Because we decided they shouldn't be able to. For no good reason.

People have this idea that "advanced" techniques are good, which I think is because Melee is great and Brawl (which was super-simplified) is terrible. But I don't need those things. If I could wavedash with a single button-press instead of buying a new controller every time I ruin another R-trigger, I'd do it in a second, and it wouldn't actually remove anything from the game. You'd still have to be able to use it well, which is the whole point. I, like my compatriot who posted a few pages back, have shaky hands, especially in tournament settings. I'm tired of blowing important wavedashes. I live with Xelic (the Melee Peach master) and we fight most every day, but man, if I were to go to a tournament tomorrow, I guarantee I'd airdodge myself into a hole. Twice.

I will respond to your post with a quote from SHeLL about the overall goals of this game.

1) A fast-paced game
2) with flowing, organic movement
3) where the player has a great degree of control over his character due to the technical skill that he's achieved.
4) The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.
5) Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding due to ledge techs.
6) Recoveries are generally weak, with the exception of a few characters.
7) The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction or at least amazing reading.

 

[Crispy4001]

On a side note, is there a possibility with this hack of adding in new gameplay modes? I always hoped Brawl would include a tag-team vs. mode, so that you could either select two characters (who share stocks) and switch between them in the middle of a 1v1...

Coincidentally, GameArts did add that feature to TMNT Smash Up. You could switch between them either by using the taunt button or by doing an up-throw (which did a Marvel vs Capcom-esque attacking swap out).

 

[Magus420]

In other words, you have to predict whether your opponent tilts their shield or not in order to L-cancel many shielded aerials. Obviously that mixup would be eiliminated if L-cancelling was removed.

There's no punishment window on l-canceling like teching so you can actually just tap it more than once so that it'd work regardless.

 

[Galt]

I will respond to your post with a quote from SHeLL about the overall goals of this game.

Is that all that one design goal means? Technicality is limited to L-canceling?

Because, if so, I think it's time to get rid of that design goal.

Otherwise, I'll assume it refers to dashdancing and wavedashing and wavelanding and spacing and crouch-canceling dashes and useful/smart things of that sort.

 

[Masky]

There's no punishment window on l-canceling like teching so you can actually just tap it more than once so that it'd work regardless.

Pretty sure it's impossible to cover both options if you're fastfalling an aerial with fox or falco. But I don't play Melee competitively I am just friends with good Melee players so this is just what they've told me

 

[Wind Owl]

Galt, this debate has been done time and again since the day Brawl came out. Everyone is quite firm in their opinions on it, particularly hardcore Melee players and the Project M team, for better or worse.

I've seen this too many times to want to have to endure it in the PM topic (again). Can we move on, please?

 

[[TSON]]

But then again Project M's target audience I believe isn't good Melee players, it's noobs that just want to feel superior/who are bad at Brawl and want to feel good about themselves/believe all the random trolling and propaganda propagated by bad players that Brawl is not competitive and Melee is God's gift to mankind. So I don't think they care about mixups anyway, they just want to wavedash or knee people with Captian Falcon, so it wouldn't make much of a difference if it was made automatic.

Our target audience is everyone. What we're aiming for is easy switching between Melee and Project M. We're targeting the Brawl audience to show them what they've missed, and we're targeting Melee's audience to have fun with the new characters from Brawl and possibly get some new Brawl players to play Melee with occasionally.

So basically your whole post was wrong :/

 

[Glöwworm]

Project M has not been released publicly yet. Submit an application if you'd like to join the private testing.

Where do I go to submit an application?

 

[Sterowent]

to me, L-canceling is a lot like strength training and its involvement in strongman tournaments.

you see, people do not start on the routines they do at their peaks, but with less weights. no, they start with a beginner's program that, above all else, pads them with the huge initial gains of a novice. in this way, they condition their bodies for the deeper, further abuse that in turn elevates them to where they can build and become those great behemoths.

L-canceling, then, is this: a skill used to introduce and familiarize the intricacies of melee. it is the conditioning for a better player, as this initial test of skill and/or muscle memory will serve as but the first step of many towards understanding the value of each button press.

or somethin like that

 

[hotdogturtle]

The point of L-canceling is so there's 2 speeds of landing lag, fast and slow. Having "automatic cancels" is the same as having no cancels, in that everything is the same speed no matter what.

 

[GP&B]

Where do I go to submit an application?

Check the OP buddeh.

Also, I liked the crappy vertex hack discussion more than this ._.

 

[Wind Owl]

But then again Project M's target audience I believe isn't good Melee players, it's noobs that just want to feel superior/who are bad at Brawl and want to feel good about themselves/believe all the random trolling and propaganda propagated by bad players that Brawl is not competitive and Melee is God's gift to mankind. So I don't think they care about mixups anyway, they just want to wavedash or knee people with Captian Falcon, so it wouldn't make much of a difference if it was made automatic.

Whoa, whoa, WHOAAAA there, son. Unnecessary edit is unnecessary, false, and intentionally inflammatory. Can we keep these out of the topic as well, too?

It doesn't have to be sunshine and butterflies all the time, but when you're literally just flaming the devs (because you can't make any more legitimate arguments?), or anyone else for that matter, please keep that out of here.

 

[humble]

Magus I can't stop laughing at your sig...


Ontopic, L cancel is a feature that won't be removed. I like this tag team idea for a mode, but how possible is it (coding wise?)

 

[Masky]

Our target audience is everyone. What we're aiming for is easy switching between Melee and Project M. We're targeting the Brawl audience to show them what they've missed, and we're targeting Melee's audience to have fun with the new characters from Brawl and possibly get some new Brawl players to play Melee with occasionally.

So basically your whole post was wrong :/

That's just what I've seen based on the majority of smashboards posts about Project M and every youtube comment I've seen. Also there's an implied attempt to sabotage Brawl's popularity out of hatred for it (which I don't understand) by splintering people into groups who like Brawl, who like Project M, who like Melee etc

 

[Wind Owl]

Like I briefly mentioned in my response to Galt, it would require assembly coding which not many people know how to do. Perhaps if I get a USB Gecko, I could look into it...

 

[TL?]

L canceling is completely arbitrary tech skill. It's tech skill for tech skill's sake. It adds 0 depth because it is ALWAYS a good idea to use it. All it does is artificially widen the gap between high level players and beginners.

Despite this, I feel like it's a bit pointless to argue about this. I seriously doubt L canceling will be officially replaced with autocanceling for Project:M. It's not really that big of a deal though, especcially since we can always customize the codeset.

 

[[TSON]]

L-canceling is essential to the Melee feel of the game. I assure you that it will not be going anywhere.

/debate?

 

[Masky]

In that case, Mr. G&W should not be able to L-Cancel, in order to contribute to the Melee-feel of the game.

Also Jigglypuff should just win everything

 

[humble]

Speaking of arbitrary tech skill, has anyone here played Gunz: the duel? Pretty much the most technical game out there, it's like melee in that the better you get the faster the gameplay becomes. A game that rewards skill is pretty awesome for me, even if it is only techs for skills sake.

Wind, which skilled coders have USB Geckos? We could see if anyone is interested at taking a look.

In that case, Mr. G&W should not be able to L-Cancel, in order to contribute to the Melee-feel of the game.

Also Jigglypuff should just win everything

 

[Galt]

It's cool to move on. I just thought the idea was to make this the best game it could possibly be, is all. Sure, lots and lots of people would complain. But you know, art isn't a democracy. You make a really great game, and people will play it. It's that simple. I'd just say that, before you get so automatically determined to appease that assumed audience, go talk to the best Melee pros, and ask them what they think would be better. If arguments could work, they would've done so already, maybe even without Galt's help. Just keep in mind, last time I actually saw this argued on this board, I was on the other side of the fence.

Another thing I'd like to ask in general of the balance team: Will you leave in any obvious weaknesses? For instance, Captain Falcon's only actual weakness was his recovery. Otherwise, he's super-great. And even then, he had some (also limited) recovery options. But, last I saw, they'd all been buffed: his up-B goes farther, his side-B boosts through enemies at the edge and also grabs the edge, and his down-B travels a shorter distance, so it's better for recovering, like Ganondorf's. So what are his weaknesses now?

Marth is bad at handling close-range combat. Maybe you should give him a shine? Just add a little shockwave when he executes his counter, or something, you know?

 

[Wind Owl]

Wind, which skilled coders have USB Geckos? We could see if anyone is interested at taking a look.

Phantom Wings: Retired
Dantarion: Probably wouldn't care
Y.S: Dead or something...?
Yeroc: Haven't seen him in a while, either...
Almas: I think the homework monster ate him

..... So.... yeah.

 

[GP&B]

Holy crap, Masky.

Just. ****ing. Stop.

 

[Archangel]

L-canceling automatically means you've got a free follow-up? I think most competitive players L-cancel nearly every time. They don't really miss. So by that logic, shouldn't they be crazy-aggressive all the time?

Sorry, that argument is stupid.

Edit: I'm not talking about no landing lag after aerials. I'm talking about just automatically going with the L-canceled lag and sparing the wear-and-tear on the triggers.

Auto L-canceling takes away a certain element of skill from the game. It's like adding auto-teching and ledgetechs and auto East Coast DI to the game. At some point you won't even need to hold the controller in order to play the ****ing game.

I can see your point and your right nobody ever means to mess up an L-cancel but you do. NBA player don't mean to miss shots but they don't make all of them. I mean if the NBA placed a high powered Magnet inside the ball that made every shot automatically go in the hoop there would really be no point to the game anymore. I'm not saying it would have that kind of an effect. However there was a character on VBrawl that had considerably less lag on almost all his moves and he currently sits at god tier.

All I'm saying is auto L-canceling takes away honed skills and makes playing highly technical characters such as fox/falco way to easy to play. In theory that sounds good but the last thing anyone wants if for this project to end up in the same place as BBrawl, Brawl-, or worse...Vbrawl....*pukes*

 

[Crispy4001]

If I could wavedash with a single button-press instead of buying a new controller every time I ruin another R-trigger, I'd do it in a second, and it wouldn't actually remove anything from the game.

Actually, you don't have to use R or L. You can also map shield to X. So you can wavedash by rolling your thumb from Y to X.

I've been trying with Brawl-'s wavedashing Fox, and it works.

 

[humble]

Actually, you don't have to use R or L. You should be able to remap shield to X. So you can wavedash by rolling your thumb from Y to X.

I've been trying with Brawl-'s wavedashing Fox, and it works.

I have a controller setup with shield as x as well, though I made it so that when using ganon and chain choking I would be able to shield on reaction faster to punish get up attacks to continue the chain choke.

@Wind- well It's a great idea that'd make for some really interesting gameplay, but if it can't be done currently, no point dwelling on it.

So guys how about them Pit/ROB recoveries huh?

 

[Cero]

Has light shielding been implemented yet? Because, I'm (pretty) sure I haven't seen anyone do it it in the latest vids.

 

[Wind Owl]

Suffice it to say that we have plans for both of (ok, mostly ROB's right now) their recoveries. ROB is getting a completely redone side and up B, but I'm not going to say more right now.

No light shielding yet.

 

[humble]

Suffice it to say that we have plans for both of (ok, mostly ROB's right now) their recoveries. ROB is getting a completely redone side and up B, but I'm not going to say more right now.

No light shielding yet.

Ah the suspense, now I'm hyped to see what is being done!

Light shielding is fairly complex- you can detect the inputs, but how to effectively make the shielding itself work is another manner.

 

[Sterowent]

hope his glide is still rock solid. i don't know what's going to happen to PHIT, but every time i see him played, i get this sense that he's got big potential. what happened to that idea of a possible cooldown on his arrow anyway?

ROB, uh...i'd like to see, once his upB is started, fuel pumps at the same rate until he lands on something, regardless of how the fuel is used. this way, he has basically a timer but can still opt to try dodging his opponents however he can besides with MADing. but i know **** about ROB, so this may seem too devistating? i know the PMBR, Eldiran, and MuBa, initially, were working on a new sideB and a new kinda recovery. which would be awesome as hell, or in my head was

edit: welp, that's somethin.

 

[Cero]

Okay, thought so.

Great job on the project so far, guys. Have fun arguing about other stuff now.

 

[Galt]

All I'm saying is auto L-canceling takes away honed skills and makes playing highly technical characters such as fox/falco way to easy to play. In theory that sounds good but the last thing anyone wants if for this project to end up in the same place as BBrawl, Brawl-, or worse...Vbrawl....*pukes*

Last thing I'll say about this, because it's not my decision, but this is exactly the thing I want to challenge. The rest of your argument is silly and doesn't actually make a point; the slippery slope fails (auto-edgeteching would break the recovery game, for instance). But this part is the heart of a lot of arguments, I think. And it just isn't true, for two reasons:

1) The best players already hit very nearly every L-cancel. Fox and Falco are already being played at the level of auto-L-cancels. And you're right that that's broken, but it's because the characters are way too good.
2) This isn't Melee. Fox and Falco don't have to be exactly the same as they were before. If they're too good, make them less good. Make Fox stop getting guaranteed kills every time his opponent gets to 90%, and change Falco's d-air to the PAL version, for instance. Minor chances. Way more elegant than L-cancels.

But now I'm honestly done. Truly. Totally apologize to the devs for keeping the debate going even though they asked us not to.

Something I also think about sometimes, as long as we're talking about advanced techniques and how much we love doing flashy things to impress our friends who don't really care, is a sort of inverse wavedash. Usually, to wavedash, you jump and immediately airdodge. But suppose you were in the air, and you airdodged, and *then* immediately jumped instead. Wavedash in the air, you know? An airdash. It would use your second jump, but the trade-off would be the ability to move in any direction while in the air without going into special-fall or requiring the broken Brawl airdodge system.

Probably not necessary. Might not even be useful, for all I know. But I still think about it sometimes.

 

[AceSe3don]

One.. Word...
SAKURAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIII.

 

[Sterowent]

hey...you never addressed my opinion on L-canceling.
aw, no one did. what a disappointment.


on another note, if light shielding is added again, will that one technique used against marth return as well? you know, the one that pushes players off the ledge when he dolphin slashes. they fall off because of the light shielding push back, and, uh...i forget what comes next. a free shot, i think?

 

[Wind Owl]

I think something in the metagame made that obsolete, but I can't remember what (perfect sweetspotting maybe?).

It wasn't a free shot; Marth just died because you got to the ledge first.

In any case, yes, I imagine so.

 

[Sterowent]

oh, righty oh.

 

[L/A/W]

guys masky is a brawl wario who times people out, don't listen to his trolling
edit: galt there will be l cancels deal with it (even though they will be accompanied by gay white flashes, which i probably won't even really notice once this game comes out and i've got more used to them)

 

[humble]

Last thing I'll say about this, because it's not my decision, but this is exactly the thing I want to challenge. The rest of your argument is silly and doesn't actually make a point; the slippery slope fails (auto-edgeteching would break the recovery game, for instance). But this part is the heart of a lot of arguments, I think. And it just isn't true, for two reasons:

1) The best players already hit very nearly every L-cancel. Fox and Falco are already being played at the level of auto-L-cancels. And you're right that that's broken, but it's because the characters are way too good.
2) This isn't Melee. Fox and Falco don't have to be exactly the same as they were before. If they're too good, make them less good. Make Fox stop getting guaranteed kills every time his opponent gets to 90%, and change Falco's d-air to the PAL version, for instance. Minor chances. Way more elegant than L-cancels.

But now I'm honestly done. Truly. Totally apologize to the devs for keeping the debate going even though they asked us not to.

Something I also think about sometimes, as long as we're talking about advanced techniques and how much we love doing flashy things to impress our friends who don't really care, is a sort of inverse wavedash. Usually, to wavedash, you jump and immediately airdodge. But suppose you were in the air, and you airdodged, and *then* immediately jumped instead. Wavedash in the air, you know? An airdash. It would use your second jump, but the trade-off would be the ability to move in any direction while in the air without going into special-fall or requiring the broken Brawl airdodge system.

Probably not necessary. Might not even be useful, for all I know. But I still think about it sometimes.

1) And part of the reason they are the best players is because they can, so their mastering of a skill improves their play- why make it arbritrary?
2) The game is undergoing radical changes daily, it's far too premature to discuss balancing already.

About your idea, I respectfully oppose it. I have no problem with giving characters tools to become better, however your idea is heavily flawed. Everyone would always use it because it's a free movement tool in the air that you can just jump out of. And think of Metaknight or Jigglypuff, and how they could abuse this.

 

[MarioMariox2]

We need a good Mario tornado in this game. I'd say Brawl-'s dair is good.

 

[Masky]

This is RockCrock on Masky's account... and all I gotta say is... ya'll byad