Project M Social Thread

[[TSON]]

Hitboxes and hurtboxes have definite sizes and they are attached to bones. Reshaping polygons has no effect on them.

 

[Shadic]

Easier way to test is to see if a replay with a vertex hack screws with a replay.

 

[AceSe3don]

Why are you guys arguing about this hurtbox/hitbox stuff? Seriously, it doesn't matter.

 

[ds22]

The Ganon vertex has 2 bones renamed as NULL bones.
Be sure to rename them when you do the replay.

 

[Wind Owl]

Why are you guys arguing about this hurtbox/hitbox stuff? Seriously, it doesn't matter.

Sorry... What? lol

 

[TL?]

Vertex hacks do not change the hurtboxes. Jiggs with a hat is no different than jiggs without a hat. this is the same for vertex hacks. I've used the mewtwo vertex over lucario on wifi with people who didn't and got no desync.

 

[GP&B]

I think the concern is that some vertex hacks may not match up to their respective hitboxes and/or hurtboxes. I don't find it to be a problem with hacks like Melee Ganondorf or the Other Dimension Link (Soul Caliber Link would be a problem because of the sword though).

 

[ChibiIceClimberz]

Vertex hacks do not change the hurtboxes. Jiggs with a hat is no different than jiggs without a hat. this is the same for vertex hacks. I've used the mewtwo vertex over lucario on wifi with people who didn't and got no desync.

Really...? o.O It might not change the hitboxes or hurtboxes, but if some certain bones change, it will change some weird animation causing it to change hitbox I've heard.

Apparently when I used Jigglypuff with a Captain Viewtiful hat, it desynched in Wi-Fi. The problem is, anything that is imported to a character causes it to desynch, because I don't think the opposing player's Brawl data can read the other team's data having Jigglypuff a Captain Falcon hat, so it will think it's some random whatever it is. x.X

Same thing with mariokart64n's Mewtwo model. A lot of his moves changed a bit, like his Force Palm (Side B), when some of the hitbox is hit underneath him instead. His d-air and jab is also weird... like his head is animated in a weird direction for some reason. Also his d-throw and his ExtremeSpeed has a stretched hurtbox-looking thing that looks round when a character gets hit on a wall/ceiling/ground.

I don't want to go off-topic anymore, but that's the end of my rant. o-o

 

[AceSe3don]

Really...? o.O It might not change the hitboxes or hurtboxes, but if some certain bones change, it will change some weird animation causing it to change hitbox I've heard.

Apparently when I used Jigglypuff with a Captain Viewtiful hat, it desynched in Wi-Fi. The problem is, anything that is imported to a character causes it to desynch, because I don't think the opposing player's Brawl data can read the other team's data having Jigglypuff a Captain Falcon hat, so it will think it's some random whatever it is. x.X

Same thing with mariokart64n's Mewtwo model. A lot of his moves changed a bit, like his Force Palm (Side B), when some of the hitbox is hit underneath him instead. His d-air and jab is also weird... like his head is animated in a weird direction for some reason. Also his d-throw and his ExtremeSpeed has a stretched hurtbox-looking thing that looks round when a character gets hit on a wall/ceiling/ground.

I don't want to go off-topic anymore, but that's the end of my rant. o-o

Ehh? You didn't see our latest M2 hacks did ya?
Heh, we're in the "final stages" now.
No seriously, who cares about vertexes? You guys are making a simple and small flaw a big error and argue about it.

 

[Shadic]

Again. Replays. Save a replay without the vertex hack. Try to replay it with the vertex hack. It's really not that hard, people.

 

[Oshtoby]

The Melee Ganondorf vertex hack is shorter than the Brawl Model. Wouldn't using that model screw things over like you guys are saying? If you're going to say "HURR IT CUD AFECT HITBOX CUES," then Melee Ganondorf has to be out. No exceptions.

To point out my point, I'm not saying we should get rid of that GREAT, FANTASTIC model, I'm saying that you're arguing about something stupid.

And that's my two cents on that.

 

[AceSe3don]

The Melee Ganondorf vertex hack is shorter than the Brawl Model. Wouldn't using that model screw things over like you guys are saying? If you're going to say "HURR IT CUD AFECT HITBOX CUES," then Melee Ganondorf has to be out. No exceptions.

To point out my point, I'm not saying we should get rid of that GREAT, FANTASTIC model, I'm saying that you're arguing about something stupid.

And that's my two cents on that.

Exactly what I said.
Stupid argument.

 

[GP&B]

Blargh, I really need to find that picture of the vertex hack next to the unmodified Ganondorf. Does anyone know where it is?

I seriously don't think it's that big of a deal though. I already pointed it out that the vertex hack would have to be obviously distorted enough to cause problems.

I'm going to inb4devs because this just isn't going anywhere.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Blargh, I really need to find that picture of the vertex hack next to the unmodified Ganondorf. Does anyone know where it is?

I seriously don't think it's that big of a deal though. I already pointed it out that the vertex hack would have to be obviously distorted enough to cause problems.

I'm going to inb4devs because this just isn't going anywhere.

If the difference is so minor, why bother interfering?

 

[GP&B]

Yeah...

I think I started this page of fail.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10802706&postcount=8646

Then JC responded on the misconstrued notion (not at his fault really) that vertex hacks modified hurtboxes and hitboxes. Wish I had been cleared up about that before I bothered discussing it >_<;

/topic change mask

So, is there possibilities of streams in the near future of this awesome breakthrough in the project? Talkin' about the Melee physics being transferred over and all. That'd be so sick to see a stream of it.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I mean no offense to you guys...

but I hope you aren't selling out.

By that I mean I hope that you are actually aiming for a full melee emulation.

I'm concerned about this because I've read the past few pages and have been reading about how and whether or not you want to add or remove certain aspects of your game in the hopes that you'll add more competitive depth. This is a noble and worthy cause, but it detracts from what I and many other melee players hope to see in this project: perfect melee emulation. Things such as continued ledge occupancy on roll are things that were critical to melee and removing them in the name of depth is all good and well. Though, I hope you realize, the game will no longer be melee.

If your goal is not perfect melee emulation, then that is fine too. However, I humbly ask that if this is the case, that you stop hyping up your project as a melee emulation.

 

[Glöwworm]

I mean no offense to you guys...

but I hope you aren't selling out.

By that I mean I hope that you are actually aiming for a full melee emulation.

I'm concerned about this because I've read the past few pages and have been reading about how and whether or not you want to add or remove certain aspects of your game in the hopes that you'll add more competitive depth. This is a noble and worthy cause, but it detracts from what I and many other melee players hope to see in this project: perfect melee emulation. Things such as continued ledge occupancy on roll are things that were critical to melee and removing them in the name of depth is all good and well. Though, I hope you realize, the game will no longer be melee.

If your goal is not perfect melee emulation, then that is fine too. However, I humbly ask that if this is the case, that you stop hyping up your project as a melee emulation.

In other words, would you agree that if changes like that are being made, wouldn't that be melee 2.0? A TRUE melee successor?

 

[Strong Badam]

I mean no offense to you guys...

but I hope you aren't selling out.

By that I mean I hope that you are actually aiming for a full melee emulation.

I'm concerned about this because I've read the past few pages and have been reading about how and whether or not you want to add or remove certain aspects of your game in the hopes that you'll add more competitive depth. This is a noble and worthy cause, but it detracts from what I and many other melee players hope to see in this project: perfect melee emulation. Things such as continued ledge occupancy on roll are things that were critical to melee and removing them in the name of depth is all good and well. Though, I hope you realize, the game will no longer be melee.

If your goal is not perfect melee emulation, then that is fine too. However, I humbly ask that if this is the case, that you stop hyping up your project as a melee emulation.

did you not read the first post

 

[94teen]

I mean no offense to you guys...

but I hope you aren't selling out.

By that I mean I hope that you are actually aiming for a full melee emulation.

I'm concerned about this because I've read the past few pages and have been reading about how and whether or not you want to add or remove certain aspects of your game in the hopes that you'll add more competitive depth. This is a noble and worthy cause, but it detracts from what I and many other melee players hope to see in this project: perfect melee emulation. Things such as continued ledge occupancy on roll are things that were critical to melee and removing them in the name of depth is all good and well. Though, I hope you realize, the game will no longer be melee.

If your goal is not perfect melee emulation, then that is fine too. However, I humbly ask that if this is the case, that you stop hyping up your project as a melee emulation.

This may just be me, but I always thought the point of the project was to recreate everything good about melee, and to improve on it where possible. If we wanted to perfectly recreate melee, why not just play it? I always thought that it was never meant to be melee, but rather melee 2.0. It's not supposed to be melee rehashed; otherwise there's no point in going through this much work to recreate a game that's been around for years already.

Part of the reason this project is so interesting is because, though melee was a great, great game, there are things about it that needed to be fixed, and this is an opportunity to recreate a great game, and to expand and improve on it. it's a great opportunity, and as much as I like melee, I'd rather not see everything get caught up with arguments of "it's not melee."

Kirby's new Nair isn't melee, but it's better. Snake and Snake both aren't melee, but both look like awesome characters with a lot of potential. I'm mostly afraid that the potential of the project is going to be limited because "that's not melee.' This is a great opportunity to make another game that's bigger and better than melee, and I'm excited for it.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I mean no offense to you guys...

but I hope you aren't selling out.

By that I mean I hope that you are actually aiming for a full melee emulation.

I'm concerned about this because I've read the past few pages and have been reading about how and whether or not you want to add or remove certain aspects of your game in the hopes that you'll add more competitive depth. This is a noble and worthy cause, but it detracts from what I and many other melee players hope to see in this project: perfect melee emulation. Things such as continued ledge occupancy on roll are things that were critical to melee and removing them in the name of depth is all good and well. Though, I hope you realize, the game will no longer be melee.

If your goal is not perfect melee emulation, then that is fine too. However, I humbly ask that if this is the case, that you stop hyping up your project as a melee emulation.

They can't code ledge occupancy :/

Personally, I wouldn't mind if the devs messed around a bit with character balance and what not, but I too hate all these radical ideas being proposed.

 

[bleyva]

*hey look, two new pages of discussion*

....aww, just meaningless philosophy banter. oh well, maybe there'll be important discussion next time...

 

[rPSIvysaur]

This may just be me, but I always thought the point of the project was to recreate everything good about melee, and to improve on it where possible. If we wanted to perfectly recreate melee, why not just play it? I always thought that it was never meant to be melee, but rather melee 2.0. It's not supposed to be melee rehashed; otherwise there's no point in going through this much work to recreate a game that's been around for years already.

Part of the reason this project is so interesting is because, though melee was a great, great game, there are things about it that needed to be fixed, and this is an opportunity to recreate a great game, and to expand and improve on it. it's a great opportunity, and as much as I like melee, I'd rather not see everything get caught up with arguments of "it's not melee."

Kirby's new Nair isn't melee, but it's better. Snake and Snake both aren't melee, but both look like awesome characters with a lot of potential. I'm mostly afraid that the potential of the project is going to be limited because "that's not melee.' This is a great opportunity to make another game that's bigger and better than melee, and I'm excited for it.

This post hits it on the nail.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Hitboxes and hurtboxes have definite sizes and they are attached to bones. Reshaping polygons has no effect on them.

Please tell me more. What parameter in the bone mods the size of the hurtbox?

 

[GP&B]

EDIT: Late, late, late...

 

[Strong Badam]

They can't code ledge occupancy :/

Personally, I wouldn't mind if the devs messed around a bit with character balance and what not, but I too hate all these radical ideas being proposed.

Yes we can. We just won't.

People are proposing redonk ideas in this topic. We aren't using 99% of them.

 

[[TSON]]

Please tell me more. What parameter in the bone mods the size of the hurtbox?

It's not part of the bone, it's in the moveset pac somewhere.

 

[Izaniki]

Just wanted to make note of this again since apparently people aren't reading the OP.

What is Project M?
Project M is an in development spin off of Brawl+ designed to add rich, technical gameplay to a balanced cast of characters while additionally enhancing the speed of play. Project M employs new codes which seemlessly add in new features to the entire cast to add technical variety to all characters.


What is Project M's mission statement?
Project M aims to achieve rich, technical, and fast gameplay married to the new brawl engine to yield a balanced, competitive, and technical version of Brawl.

Emphasis mine. Also, as someone mentioned earlier, Melee 2.0 not 1.1

 

[Masky]

Is it possible to "partially" apply the codes somehow so that you can pit Melee/Project M characters against Brawl characters?

 

[GP&B]

It depends on what you compromise. You have some global physics codes and then you have each individual characters' changes. What I suppose you could do is pit a Meleefied character against a Brawl character in a Melee physics environment and vice versa.

Although, I don't know what global codes there are in the fighter.pac maybe besides L-canceling and some other things.

 

[ZodiakLucien]

you cant airdodge in the air while holding a trigger button. For instance if you are holding L you cant jump and airdodge with R. Just a glitch I found while playing.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

That's been like that since vBrawl I think.

Oh, and don't report bugs here. Do it in PMBR.

 

[AceSe3don]

I'm really confused, can't find the download anywhere.

 

[GP&B]

download fur wat

/unprofessional

EDIT: Jesus, I'm so smart today...

 

[Shell]

Project M has not been released publicly yet. Submit an application if you'd like to join the private testing.

 

[AceSe3don]

I could, but nah, I'll wait -if it is Allah's willing.-

 

[Galt]

I don't know if this has been discussed before because the thread is 582 pages long and I've only read ~30 of them, so I'll ask just in case:

What is the justification for reintroducing L-canceling? I'm a hardcore Melee-only player. I know we all like it. It feels nice. But it's also a useless dexterity tax, which is at least partially apparent in the fact that no other fighter out there uses a similar system. Any time another fighter has a cancel system, it's either based on canceling one move into another with crazy frame precision, or it depletes a super meter, so it's limited. I don't understand why the cancel can't just be automatic.

I've tried to defend L-canceling in the past. I just can't explain why it should be there. I can't come up with a single good reason that isn't "We like it because it was there before."

On a side note, is there a possibility with this hack of adding in new gameplay modes? I always hoped Brawl would include a tag-team vs. mode, so that you could either select two characters (who share stocks) and switch between them in the middle of a 1v1, or actually tag in your human partner (a teams match, but still 1v1). I'm a player who likes to focus on more than just one main, and besides that, I think it would be an interesting way to limit any one character from becoming too dominant in 1v1 competition, because each player can have his main and also a counter against his opponent; you'd have twice the chances of playing a character he's bad against, essentially.

And one more quick note, I'd love to stop airdodging to my death when I'm holding R, get nudged off the stage, and *release* R, causing me to airdodge.

Thanks for the efforts everyone.

 

[Vro]

Point is, if there were no L cancels and everything canceled automatically, there's nothing stopping players from being all out aggressive, all the time. It makes sure that players actually have some commitment to their attack and they better know what they / their opponent is doing, otherwise they'll get punished.

In other words, there must be a cautionary tax on the offensive player.

 

[Galt]

...So we don't believe in spacing anymore? L-canceling automatically means you've got a free follow-up? I think most competitive players L-cancel nearly every time. They don't really miss. So by that logic, shouldn't they be crazy-aggressive all the time?

Sorry, that argument is stupid.

Edit: I'm not talking about no landing lag after aerials. I'm talking about just automatically going with the L-canceled lag and sparing the wear-and-tear on the triggers.

 

[Wind Owl]

stuff

L-canceling: Basically it's in because you wouldn't be able to drag it away from 90% of Melee players without them kicking and screaming. Personally, I recognize its uselessness (any attempts to justify it come after the fact of its existence... Who would design a competitive game with that mechanic?

Spoiler

SAKURAIIIIIIIIIII

) That said, this is a mod that you have full control over, and rest assured that ALR will be included as an optional code.

Tag teams: That idea sounds mad legit. It's like crews but 2v2. Not sure I like the "tag yourself in" idea, since we already have a rather deep counterpick system, but the tagging in human players is a great idea in my opinion... I'll have to look into adding it somehow, but ASM is not within my scope of expertise at the moment.

Negative-edged airdodges: Pretty sure these aren't in P:M. If they are, we can remove them.

 

[I R MarF]

What is the justification for reintroducing L-canceling? I'm a hardcore Melee-only player. I know we all like it. It feels nice. But it's also a useless dexterity tax, which is at least partially apparent in the fact that no other fighter out there uses a similar system. Any time another fighter has a cancel system, it's either based on canceling one move into another with crazy frame precision, or it depletes a super meter, so it's limited. I don't understand why the cancel can't just be automatic.

I've tried to defend L-canceling in the past. I just can't explain why it should be there. I can't come up with a single good reason that isn't "We like it because it was there before."

L-Cancelling allows characters (particularly Ganondorf) who have higher aerial landing lag to stand a chance against otherwise much faster and, statistically speaking, superior characters. While it can be viewed as a "useless dexterity tax" it widens the skill gap between novice and professional players and obviously provides more competitive depth. Take marth for example; there is so many more advantages with Marth's Shffled fair (which has practically no lag) to Marth's Shffed fair (which has a delay before the next attack).

Also, Smash is unlike any fighting game, and that is a fact I truly admire the series for. So it should have its own unique ATs such as L-Cancelling, which (as stated prior) has many advantages.