Project M Social Thread

[bubbaking]

Kink trying to be kinky-linky with his emoticons...

Some people are just jealous...

 

[Gimpel]

I really don't agree with all that "make an exception and put that glitch from melee back in only for falco so his deadly combos are nerfed"
It's a really wack glitch that makes no sense and rewards you for missing your tech and makes it possible for you to punish a falco for hitting you :/
I'm pretty sure it only happens when you ground bounce from missing a tech and get hit with an upwards hitting staled attack, which is a totally legit situation to be hit in.
anyone claiming he has true 0-death combos due to this glitch missing should learn how to tech and stop johning. If you want to nerf falco, there are better ways to do this than artifically putting a glitchy glitch back in

 

[Vashimus]

I agree. Falco is a really dumb character and should be nerfed in future installments. Even if it was just his shine starting on frame 2, after the invincibility, it would be a fine start .

Needs more and at least a mention of

Only then will you reach Bubba status.

 

[Astraea31]

Yeah, but P:M is a better game, so why not? If Armada quit Melee because it was boring or imbalanced or whatever (I don't know his reasoning so I'm just speculating), then it would make sense for him to continue playing P:M. Besides, in Melee, he played Peach, but in P:M, he played Pit, so even if they were the same game (which they aren't), it wouldn't be so for him because he mains different chars.

Armada and Leffen are practically BFFs when it comes to smash, and Armada agreed to what Leffen was saying about most of the characters in PM having auto combos/insane recovery. And I don't think he's bored with the "melee" per se, he just feels he's lost his motivation as a competitor because he's been winning every tournament since 2011.

 

[bubbaking]

Dude, you can't really "punish Falco for hitting you." The shine still connects and sends you twenty feet into the air. You only get to punish him if you stick your leg out and he runs into it. If anything, this punishes Falco for not following up his hits properly and letting you hit the ground. As abcool said, in Melee, Falco had to mix it up with shines, utilts, and grabs because if you hit the ground, it wasn't a true combo anymore and that situation could happen. Now he gets to be brain-dead and still get 0-to-deaths on people. It's a feature that people became accustomed to in Melee and now that abcool pointed it out, I'm definitely noticing it myself. Bringing it back would simply restore the spacees' Melee feel, for both the spacee AND his opponent. I wouldn't mind if that 'glitch' was brought back for everyone, because like I said, it only majorly affected the spacees. If you're bothered by the whole "make an exception" thing, then there you go, do it for everyone.

As Falco, if you see the opponent miss his tech, then jab him, dsmash him, do anything. It's really easy. Falcos that complain about this should stop johning and learn to mix up and execute their combos properly. Sometimes, not teching is a deliberate strategy to punish lazy Falcos.

Btw, as Magus explained, this ISN'T a glitch. It is an effect of Melee's 'ground bounce' mechanics. This is literally no more of a glitch than wavedashing. The only reason it doesn't exist in P:M is because vBrawl decided to change how things work.

 

[yahyakun]

i agree that falco should be nerfed. at least nerf those lasers and dair.
---
nintendo thought that ppl with rly heavy gravity would be a down cuz it would be very hard to control them. and they were right... but just when ur completely new to the game, u may end up dying if u try to kill someone that is off stage.
but now fox/falco has evolved, and they took advantage of that gravity that pretended to be a "down" part for them, now its an up. that gravity make combos for them pretty insanely good.
i personally think that fox and falco should be nerfed, cuz if they dont, them they should make almost every character RLY good in order to be at fox/falco lvl.

ive always thought that fox/falco are op... pretty much like pikachu from ssb64. the rat has it all. now the falcon and the fox has it all.

 

[Gimpel]

yeah I realized that punishing falco for hitting with the shine was an exaggeration after I posted it but I was eating pizza at that point, sorry about that.
however, you can't say it's not a glitch because "it's just an effect of the mechanics in this game" because pretty much every glitch is. when you glitch through a wall in a random video game it's just an effect of the wall mechanics in this game, but it's still a glitch. Not saying wavedashing is a glitch, because that's completely normal and expected behaviour but going upwards with your falling animation and only 13 frames of lag, when you should normally be in your animation for being hit and much much more hitstun, it totally isn't the expected behavior of the game and thus, in my opinion, a glitch

/e

|
v

 

[Kink-Link5]

Pizza johns huh.

Well that's a new one.

 

[Stevo]

why would you want that **** in this game...

I'm late to the party but thisssssssss

plus, when does that ever happen when NOT playing against CPU's? like 1 out of every million Falco combos.

 

[bubbaking]

Uh, that happens to me all the time man. It lets me DJ out of Falco's jank when he isn't paying attention.

 

[Warhawk]

It only really affects the spacees who are already broken as heck. I know what Abcool is talking about now and I've never seen it happen to other chars. If people get 'extra' rewards against the spacees, then it might be a nice balancing aspect, courtesy of Melee.

Pretty sure it affects Falcon's raptor boost too, which really sucks because that move is generally high risk high reward with how punishable it is and if it gets used in that situation is high risk no reward since the opponent gets a free escape. It also affects Pikachu's downsmash as well and causes some weird zero gravity effects with that move sometimes. I'm sure if I went and tested it I could find a whole bunch of moves this affects.

It also just generally seems like poor design with the characters being able to double jump like 50 feet in the air after being put in this state sometimes (and the pmbr is very keen on making sure things are well designed). The mechanic in itself doesn't really affect Falco either, he just has to uptilt instead and honestly if you keep missing that tech you deserve to get shine->daired 3 extra times or whatever because it is within your control, especially after you miss the tech the first time. Whatever nerf you want on Falco with this just isn't worth it seeing as it barely affects him with the large number of other moves he can use instead of shine and the mechanic is overall just not a great one. Why should you get out of a combo because you missed a tech and the opponent happened to use a certain move and in some cases a move that has to be staled a certain amount? Its just disruptive to game flow and poor design if you ask me.

 

[Stevo]

Uh, that happens to me all the time man. It lets me DJ out of Falco's jank when he isn't paying attention.

You shouldn't be getting hit by that many shines if you are DI'ng... 1 out of a million was an exaggeration, but it doesn't happen on a regular basis.

what is it, like 4 out of the last 8 attacks have to be shines or something for it to stale enough?

basically it happens with Bad DI, which is usually, but not always, against CPUs.

Even if I'm wrong, and my over 10 years of playing Melee has been a lie, it's still dumb. Why not pray for phatom hits to escape combos.

 

[MonkUnit]

If Armada quit Melee because it was boring or imbalanced or whatever (I don't know his reasoning so I'm just speculating)

Instead of speculating, you could just check Armada's retirement thread.

 

[bubbaking]

Pretty sure it affects Falcon's raptor boost too, which really sucks because that move is generally high risk high reward with how punishable it is and if it gets used in that situation is high risk no reward since the opponent gets a free escape. It also affects Pikachu's downsmash as well and causes some weird zero gravity effects with that move sometimes. I'm sure if I went and tested it I could find a whole bunch of moves this affects.

It also just generally seems like poor design with the characters being able to double jump like 50 feet in the air after being put in this state sometimes (and the pmbr is very keen on making sure things are well designed). The mechanic in itself doesn't really affect Falco either, he just has to uptilt instead and honestly if you keep missing that tech you deserve to get shine->daired 3 extra times or whatever because it is within your control, especially after you miss the tech the first time. Whatever nerf you want on Falco with this just isn't worth it seeing as it barely affects him with the large number of other moves he can use instead of shine and the mechanic is overall just not a great one. Why should you get out of a combo because you missed a tech and the opponent happened to use a certain move and in some cases a move that has to be staled a certain amount? Its just disruptive to game flow and poor design if you ask me.

That's why Falco uses certain moves to keep the opponent from hitting the ground. As for Falcon, start learning to stomp or jab > follow-up missed techs. The attacker should learn how to deal with ALL tech situations, including non-techs, as much as the defender. Like I said, sometimes the defender will aim to miss the tech to give himself the grounded invincibility, get-up attack, and/or escape from lazy shine combos. I don't know what you mean by "if you keep missing that tech" because this is something that could very well apply to the very first chance one is ever given to tech. I'm not even saying this should be brought back. I'm simply giving merit to abcool's observation because it is indeed an important one.

however, you can't say it's not a glitch because "it's just an effect of the mechanics in this game" because pretty much every glitch is. when you glitch through a wall in a random video game it's just an effect of the wall mechanics in this game, but it's still a glitch. Not saying wavedashing is a glitch, because that's completely normal and expected behaviour but going upwards with your falling animation and only 13 frames of lag, when you should normally be in your animation for being hit and much much more hitstun, it totally isn't the expected behavior of the game and thus, in my opinion, a glitch

Read Magus' post. It's completely expected because of the amount of damage Falco's shine does. I remember reading a post by KirbyKaze where he talks about why certain attacks in Melee are great for resets and others aren't based on how much damage they do and how some attacks, like Sheik's ftilt, I believe, go from one side of this spectrum to the other because of staling.

If this feature is a glitch, then wavedashing is also a glitch. It's only "normal" now because everyone is aware of it and everyone uses it, but Sakurai did not intend for air-dodge landings to be used the way they are now, so it effectively is a glitch, just like how 'no-scope' rifle shots are a glitch in CoD 4. Since Falco's shine only does a certain amount of damage and it hit the grounded opponent, it's 100% expected that this opponent go into only 13 frames of lag because that's how the mechanics worked. It's actually more deliberate of a mechanic than wavelanding, because that very mechanic was MEANT for situations like this. The 13 frames of lag is meant to initiate a 'check' of sorts. If the char is still grounded after the 13 frames, he enters his get-up animation (aka jab reset), but if he's still airborne, he enters his regular aerial state. Nothing glitchy here.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Good points BubbaKing, but whether or not it is a glitch is moot.

Many seem to be saying "it's janky design so i'm glad its gone" as if that character isn't jank to begin with, and ignoring that changing the engine rules without nerfs has a corrosive effect on god tier gameplay in the hands of really good players.

A select few veteran characters are always being excused for jank that benefits them and just above the law no matter how bad an effect it has on gameplay.

 

[bubbaking]

Instead of speculating, you could just check Armada's retirement thread.

Checked out the OP and the first four pages. Looks like I was right. Armada really is bored. No competition for three years straight = no motivation. However, my question was never answered. Will he continue to play P:M competitively?

 

[Archangel]

I can tell you that is a solid no. He's not quitting melee to pick up PM. He's quitting competitive gaming as a whole. Adam is looking to find his calling in life and he's moving on. Plenty of people have done it already. Smash isn't a life-long career....for most..

 

[Warhawk]

That's why Falco uses certain moves to keep the opponent from hitting the ground. As for Falcon, start learning to stomp or jab > follow-up missed techs. The attacker should learn how to deal with ALL tech situations, including non-techs, as much as the defender. Like I said, sometimes the defender will aim to miss the tech to give himself the grounded invincibility, get-up attack, and/or escape from lazy shine combos. I don't know what you mean by "if you keep missing that tech" because this is something that could very well apply to the very first chance one is ever given to tech. I'm not even saying this should be brought back. I'm simply giving merit to abcool's observation because it is indeed an important one.

What if Falcon wants to raptor boost to cover tech in place and tech away and give him a certain set of followups based on stage positioning and percentage but now can't do that because raptor boost was staled once or whatever the necessary staling is? To me that just seems dumb. I understand non techs are a legitimate option but this situation means the opponent covered the missed tech but because of what they covered with and/or how much that move was staled the opponent gets away free. Anyways none of this covers how ridiculous the situation looks in terms of design and how getting much larger double jumps is probably something that shouldn't happen design-wise.

My "if you keep missing the tech" statement was addressing the statement from abcool I think talking about how it gives Falco more free zero to deaths or additional shine->dairs for their combos, well yea maybe it will get you once by surprise but if they zero to death you because you keep missing the tech on the dair you deserve to be punished if you already missed that same tech before. I don't see the issue with it extending their combos for you not learning and adjusting.

Also I don't know how often you see people use this to "escape from lazy shine combos" but I really don't see this anymore. Fox and Falco are the only one who seem to get into the situations where they can use this to benefit them and most Falcos don't continue shine->dair combos at the percent where spacies fall down from the dair.

 

[Xinc]

Gah. It's been so long since I posted in the Project M thread. Sonic looks like such an annoying character, even potentially overpowered, to play against. What do you recommend as a counter to him?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Gah. It's been so long since I posted in the Project M thread. Sonic looks like such an annoying character, even potentially overpowered, to play against. What do you recommend as a counter to him?

Long-lasting hitboxes and/or a projectile.

That's it, really. This character has some really strong options.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If falcon can't do the raptor boost too bad he'll have to go for a harder read using any of his myriad other tech chasing options.

I do know what you mean, but it's much less of a big deal than you make it out to be.

 

[abcool]

Alright, i see i have started a big debate in here. I was just talking about some of the foolishness Falco can do to some characters if he popped them up on a platform. Why should his character be given this buff. Ex. I am Falco on Yoshi/Battlefield. I shine a FFer; they pop up on a platform; they tech in place; i get a guaranteed shine/waveland grab/uair etc. They miss the tech; i get another shine, you have no escape option when the initial hit was a shine from under the platform. Yeah, you can use DI and escpae, but look at your percents after that you are ready for blastzones. Falco is fast enough to cover platform options. What the "hitstun reset" does is take away his shine followup on missed tech once you hit the next platform, causing him to either force you to tech and shine or use something else.

The case that was made with Falcon is kinda incorrect. Falcon can still RB on techs, he just can't use it on missed techs after the 13ish frame, PLUS even if he puts you in that state you are still above falcon which a terrible place to be. Or he can opt for a knee which is a better option on missed techs or stomp. Also, remember falcon is high/top tier.

Bubba understands what i am trying to get across. Idk, if it's because we are Samus bros :D, but hey lol. Anyway, like i said it's your mod and you decide everything that goes into this game, but don't be surprised if people still complain about Falco at the end of the day and just play Melee instead.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Falcon is a top tier?

Holy ****.

 

[Stevo]

I just want to say, I fail to see the logic in going back to melee if you are complaining about how good Falco is. By comparison, Falco is much easier to handle in Project M, even without having some strange physics exploit to help you out sometimes.

 

[abcool]

Falcon is a top tier?

Holy ****.

I main Samus, he is top tier to me lol. High/Top is what i said btw, which means better than half the cast.

@Stevo, Melee has every option in the world to deal with Falco's jank. Lightshield, hitstun cancel on missed techs, better shield mechanics in general etc.

 

[bubbaking]

Abcool said high/top, which is 100% correct. Kink just hates Falcon for some ungodly reason. Musta been ***** by him as a child.....

#PedoFalcon

 

[cannedbread]

daily reminder that falcon isn't a real character

 

[Stevo]

@Stevo, Melee has every option in the world to deal with Falco's jank. Lightshield, hitstun cancel on missed techs, better shield mechanics in general etc.

I'll agree with you there, especially on the shield mechanics, but that is on the to-do list. Are we really gonna start implementing things to balance falco and fox BEFORE the game is done?

I mean, the only argument I see for adding that "thing" in the game is for balancing Falco.... hardly seems like a valid reason, plus aren't there better ways of doing that?

Falco is less better than the rest of the cast in Project M is what I was getting at.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Falcon is very real, just, really average. He gets great rewards and options after hits but not much else. He can be better than a good portion of the cast and still be middle class; it just means the rest of the cast is a lot worse lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Bubba understands what i am trying to get across. Idk, if it's because we are Samus bros :D, but hey lol.

Yo, we Sami hang tight!

Gah. It's been so long since I posted in the Project M thread. Sonic looks like such an annoying character, even potentially overpowered, to play against. What do you recommend as a counter to him?

Pick up Snake. Sonic just loses to upB + 'nades. I'm not even kidding.

I'll agree with you there, especially on the shield mechanics, but that is on the to-do list. Are we really gonna start implementing things to balance falco and fox BEFORE the game is done?

I mean, the only argument I see for adding that "thing" in the game is for balancing Falco.... hardly seems like a valid reason, plus aren't there better ways of doing that?

Falco is less better than the rest of the cast in Project M is what I was getting at.

So then why did we bring back KB stacking? From what I could gather, the biggest reason it was brought back was the spacee 'mains' crying that they couldn't pull off their shine combos like they could in Melee when they could just perform new ones for P:M.

To be perfectly honest, I would have been completely fine if KB calculations were left the way they were in 2.1. We only brought back KB stacking "because Melee", so what's wrong with suggesting another change that would actually bring about some balance (something KB stacking didn't do) "because Melee". I always see people making 'exceptions for rules' when it comes to a mechanic or a char they like/dislike.

When it comes time to talk about balance, people say we should balance everyone around Top Tier instead of bringing Top down to High Tier's level to open up weaknesses for everyone to exploit and bring about true balance, but when certain chars get close to that level (Lucario, Ike, etc), they're "nerftweaked" to heck and reset to square 1, leaving the spacees and Sheik on their mighty pedestal. When people want that complete "Melee feel" they ***** about lack of KB stacking or completely praise its inclusion in P:M, but then when someone decides to go in-line with this whole "Melee feel" trend and reports something he noticed that prevents this "Melee feel", people start beating on him because it's a 'glitch' (which it isn't) that 'unfairly nerfs the spacees' and say stuff like 'P:M is its own game; it can do what it wants'. We need some sense of consistency, folks!

 

[GHNeko]

Sonic doesnt lose to Snake Up B + Nades. His normals easily get around all that lol.

 

[Magus420]

Melee KB stacking doesn't only benefit Falco, and neither does not using Melee's hitbox damage based resets.

 

[Warhawk]

Alright, i see i have started a big debate in here. I was just talking about some of the foolishness Falco can do to some characters if he popped them up on a platform. Why should his character be given this buff. Ex. I am Falco on Yoshi/Battlefield. I shine a FFer; they pop up on a platform; they tech in place; i get a guaranteed shine/waveland grab/uair etc. They miss the tech; i get another shine, you have no escape option when the initial hit was a shine from under the platform. Yeah, you can use DI and escpae, but look at your percents after that you are ready for blastzones. Falco is fast enough to cover platform options. What the "hitstun reset" does is take away his shine followup on missed tech once you hit the next platform, causing him to either force you to tech and shine or use something else.

Most characters can cover options on platforms, platform use is an integral part of every character's combo game. Additionally you can DI to hit the platform edge and fall of to escape the combo, it is just more difficult than depending on your opponent to use a certain move to put you in a zero hitstun state. To escape you can also tech away and force them to use a move that's more DIable that can lead to an escape sooner. I don't know why you're considering it a buff for Falco, it affects more than just him and he can just uptilt instead of shine and he still gets to keep his combo going. I also don't know why you'd want to give the person getting hit in a combo the advantage, which is what this mechanic does sometimes, Fox and Falco can nair Falco immediately out of his shine if this situation occurs, which is pretty weird. It just in general seems like a poorly designed mechanic with all its general oddities, which is more of a problem than anything else. Of all of the things you can think of to implement to bring the spacies back to the cast why such an odd mechanic that really hardly affects them?

The case that was made with Falcon is kinda incorrect. Falcon can still RB on techs, he just can't use it on missed techs after the 13ish frame, PLUS even if he puts you in that state you are still above falcon which a terrible place to be. Or he can opt for a knee which is a better option on missed techs or stomp. Also, remember falcon is high/top tier.

Ok my example with Falcon was more intended to be used to show how janky and backwards of a scenario this mechanic can create (not even sure how true it is since I haven't seen it happen in a long time), I know there are better things on missed techs with him but even still it limits his option coverage with certain choices in odd situations(raptor boost covering missed tech, tech in place, and one of the tech away options now misses missed tech in weird scenarios). And in this scenario it does not always still put the person hit at a disadvantage, you can sometimes nair Falcon immediately out of raptor boost with fast fallers at low percents I'm pretty sure and being at a disadvantage for successfully covering something just seems like a bad mechanic. At higher percents if Falcon tries to chase you up you can just jump since the game has some weird zero gravity effect with this mechanic and you will jump way out of reach.

Also why does it matter that Falcon is a higher tier? As a character he still has some major flaws in melee.

 

[bubbaking]

Sonic doesnt lose to Snake Up B + Nades. His normals easily get around all that lol.

I was shamelessly exaggerating.

In all seriousness though, I feel Snake has an answer for everything Sonic does unless Snake is recovering low. Against you, I felt more comfortable with Snake, despite Lucario probably being my #1 main. I could even cover multiple recovery options by positioning a dropped Nikita, supplementing it with a well-placed mine and C4, and reacting accordingly with Snake himself. Living forever really helps too. I'd like to play that MU with you more since I didn't really pick up Snake until after I was done playing with Eli and Leelue, but I've played a lot recently against SOJ's Sonic and I personally think Snake has a lot of things to fight Sanik.

 

[abcool]

@Warhawk i don't have a problem with Falcon being high tier. I was just pointing out that he is high tier with or without it. Also, wouldn't this mechanic affect wiggle out of jab reset shenanigans. I am sure if Sheik is tech chasing Falcon from here to sweden you can somewhat prevent this by DI'ing up and going into that same state. If that is the case it helps with more than balancing Falco.

In all honesty i don't care whether you guys bring it back or not. (Most people here only play melee nowadays) I was just saying that it helped somewhat balance Falco and other combo heavy characters by forcing different mixups instead of the "shine is the answer to all move"

 

[bubbaking]

Melee KB stacking doesn't only benefit Falco, and neither does not using Melee's hitbox damage based resets.

No one ever said it did (for either), but the ones who were most vocal about KB stacking after it was pointed out were the Falcos. So many people said, "So THIS is why Falco never felt like he was in Melee."

 

[BrandX]

Hey guys! Not sure if anyone is interested, but I'm going to be streaming Project M with my friend after I stream 2-3 hours of SkullGirls casuals (So about 4:30 PM PST)

Won't be anything high level, but just 2 guys having fun (though I will be trying to apply the skills everyone has been telling me to practice)

http://www.twitch.tv/chibiminaria# Here is a link if anyone is interested~

 

[bubbaking]

How far away from EST is PST?

 

[Warhawk]

ignore for factual discrepancies lol

 

[BrandX]

7:30 PM actually