Project M Social Thread

[Ishiey]

Want to offer some tidbits on lucas changes perhaps, Ishieymoro?

Well, idk what will and won't make it out to 2.5 since everything is subject to change, and as such would rather not go into details :x there aren't too many changes though, and most of them are pretty minor.

If he has more reliable kill setups (that aren't heavily % based and don't require a grab) that's already a great buff to one of the things in 2.1 that Lucas was lacking. Not that he's bad in 2.1 but it is frustrating to secure kills a lot of the time.

Agreed. Unfortunately, his kill setups haven't changed afaict, but midair kills off the top feel a bit more viable

The sad thing is Lucas needs nerfs. If people would play with him they'd realize how secret top-tier he is.

Seriously. Tone down those non OU smashes. As of now there is nearly no reason to OU, and that's really disappointing because I think it's a cool idea. Fair is super safe on shield, which is silly, and nair pretty much combos into itself until it's a kill move. Get rid of that landing hit, because that's nuts.



Unless we've decided we're balancing to Fox, in which case more buffs please. Make OU even better or something insane. Make upsmash 12 frames long.

Lucas would be close to top-tier with enough metagame development, but why develop his metagame when you can play the best character in the game who already has 11 years of other people doing the work for you?

Agreed that OU is pretty trashy, but toning down his regular smashes would nerf his current killing ability a bit too much imo :/ fair and nair, yeah, they're kinda stupid good, but once again even a small nerf there could drastically affect Lucas.

+1 for 12-frame usmash.

 

[Juushichi]

Gimp his non-OU smashes.

Make his OU smashes a bit better than his current ones.

Ding, fries are done.

 

[Ishiey]

OU takes too long to charge up unless it's between stocks. If they could make it so that there were stockpile points like other charged moves (ex. DK/Samus nB), the added flexibility would help a ton and make such a change more excusable imo. You can sometimes charge instead of going for an edgeguard at higher %s, but it's not really worth it then since you could just, idk, secure the kill with edgeguarding instead :x

 

[Master WGS]

This is what I mean about OU being nearly pointless. Find Lucas and look at how close non-OU and OU Smashes are. They give more percent, and a nearly negligible amount of more knockback. Obviously they ARE better, so you totally should use OU when you can, but you're not necessarily punished for not using it. Or rather, there is little incentive to do so. Your incentive is KOing them at 5-15 percent lower than normal. Neat. Nair them twice, which is faster and doesn't go away if you miss hitting them with a Smash attack, and you'll knock them out anyway.

If there was a bigger gap between OU Smashes (again I don't think OU really needs to be stronger - his non OU Smashes are plenty strong compared to most, and he has great edgegaurding tools - he isn't wanting in killing power) or if OU Smashes did something different almost entirely (additional effects, bigger hitboxes, knocked back in different angles, etc.) it'd be way more interesting to use and be more rewarding when you charged it up.

Or leave it as is and I'll be the only one who complains, and that won't be often until new versions of the demos are on the way.

Also, no Eli, I don't really exist. I'm merely a figment of this forum's imagination.

 

[Ishiey]

What difference would you suggest for OU smashes then, aside from a KB/damage increase? Dsmash has the extra hitlag for massive damage via two hits which I think is pretty cool, but I can't think of how they'd change usmash/fsmash. Maybe a more horizontal / less DI-able fsmash, and... an even larger usmash hitbox?

 

[Master WGS]

Make Usmash a harder to DI angle and with less endlag.

Change Fsmash animation to make it look longer and change the hitbox accordingly, as well as a more horizontal angle.

Tons of shield damage on all of them, or let it stay on shield hits. One or the other, as both might be madness.

Please note I'm just spitballing and haven't really thought through any of these suggestions.

 

[satan666]

So when are they gonna give falcon a dash-dance burnout?

 

[Stevo]

I think OU Forward Smash could use a little more knockback maybe.

 

[DMG]

So when are they gonna give falcon a dash-dance burnout?

Never you greedy girl

 

[satan666]

But he needs it.

 

[Life]

I'm late but I like how "leelue go to bed" is practically a meme on this thread anymore

 

[Gimpel]

what's the point of OU (the charge animation) stopping when you don't keep holding down the b button? It's really one of the least intuitive moves to use in the game and I always have to explain what that move does when I play with people not experienced with the game. IMO it should instead be interruptible by pressing shield, like almost any other charge move in the game :^)
I'd be really happy if this was considered for 2.5

 

[DMG]

But he needs it.

I will fisticuff duel you

I'm late but I like how "leelue go to bed" is practically a meme on this thread anymore

Not a Meme, it's trying to save him the embaressment and pain from late night posting. I almost want to John for him

 

[ELI-mination]

Well I started saying that because I was joking around since I know he doesn't get much sleep and will post at like 5am. It has nothing to do with his actual posts so you're taking it to a different level for no reason. Anyway...

I knew MasterWGS was a figment of my imagination. In fact, I think the entirety of Ohio is a figment of my imagination. My brightly colored imagination.

Lucas is one of the 5 or so characters I have no interest in, so I can't comment on that.

Lol @ Falcon needing a "dash dance burnout". What about Fox? Why not just have characters start tripping randomly while we're at it? They need it.

 

[bubbaking]

Why are people complaining about Lucas? I thought that it had already been decided that balancing is being done around Top Tier. Or rather, the illusion is being given that balancing is being done around Top Tier, but then when the time comes and a character has finally transcended humanity, BAM!, something happens and that char suddenly falls off the cliff he was clinging onto ('wall-clinging', GET IT?!? ).

But if some characters are being balanced with relative 'balance' in mind, I think that Lucas' OU-smashes should be slightly buffed while leaving his regular smashes alone. Perhaps his OU smash could be made so that you don't lose it if you hit a shield with it. That would be Lucario/Ike-style punishment for the opponent deciding to be a scaredy-cat and shielding your moves. Perhaps you could also make the hitboxes match the animation, but that might be a little OP. I'm admittedly a little relieved that OU-usmash is not as big as the game would have me believe.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Functionally, I don't think any amount of difference between OU and non-OU damage and KB would make it necessary or spectacularly helpful to atually use the move. They don't do anything that the regular smashes don't besides that higher damage; not more range, or more active frames, or more reflection on F-smash, or any other such functional changes to the moves.

But by all means yes nerf his non-OU kill moves that is Lucas's problem and why he is secretly better than Fox and Falco. But shh it's a secret don't tell anyone.

 

[Strong Badam]

WGS: Adding percent increases the KB by a huge amount. Damage dealt contributes quite a bit to knockback.

 

[GunBlaze]

OU is overrated.

 

[ELI-mination]

WGS: Adding percent increases the KB by a huge amount. Damage dealt contributes quite a bit to knockback.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VSO0ih7vVE

 

[Oracle]

what's the point of OU (the charge animation) stopping when you don't keep holding down the b button? It's really one of the least intuitive moves to use in the game and I always have to explain what that move does when I play with people not experienced with the game. IMO it should instead be interruptible by pressing shield, like almost any other charge move in the game :^)
I'd be really happy if this was considered for 2.5

So you can windbox edgeguard people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDh4ghnUR-Q&t=1m28s

I don't really see why you would complain about lucas needing nerfs when no one plays him at all and the people who do play him aren't winning tournaments.

 

[bubbaking]

Adding damage and/or KB would create a huge reason to use OU smahes over non-OU ones.

Agreed. Unfortunately, his kill setups haven't changed afaict, but midair kills off the top feel a bit more viable

Midair kills off the top? Is his uair stronger now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VSO0ih7vVE

Lolz, the argument that takes place in the comments is hilarious! Powerpoint vs animatinon vs game! Which is more accurate?

 

[leafbarrett]

AAAAARGH!!!
Okay, this may seem like a weird question, PM staff, but how do you edit the moveset files without breaking them? I was messing around with Toon Link's dtaunt (the milk), basically aiming to make it heal more but have a limit on how much it could heal in a match. I got it to work, but then suddenly his attack landing animations freeze him in place after ending. Similar things happened with Bowser and Ike; Bowser's specials (all of them) put him into a freeze frame at the end of his current animation (and if in midair, it wouldn't even register landing on the ground) without even activating the Special actions, and Ike's upB flat-out crashed the game. So what do you guys use to edit the movesets? PSA? Brawlbox?

 

[Master WGS]

WGS: Adding percent increases the KB by a huge amount. Damage dealt contributes quite a bit to knockback.

I know, but his bkb and kbg are both lowered on OU moves to compensate, making the difference in how far you are actually knocked back fairly small. That list I pointed to earlier is calculated from combining all factors of knockback, damage included.

 

[leelue]

I remember back when I rallied for Lucas to retain partial charges.
Part of my whole "please make the game more intuitive so it's easier for someone to learn on their own without needing to read a tutorial" thing.
Unfortunately, this notion did not catch on.

If anything, they could/should edit the collectible objects in the game so the descriptions are tips concerning the character specific ATs.
There are still trophies in brawl, right?

 

[leafbarrett]

If anything, they could/should edit the collectible objects in the game so the descriptions are tips concerning the character specific ATs.
There are still trophies in brawl, right?

Yes, and the data for their text should be easy to edit with BrawlBox.

 

[leelue]

Figured as much, since I changed the text on my menus to be more NY like.

 

[Master WGS]

Also, let me restate that I don't think Lucas needs buffs. I'm of the mindset that he's in a very good place (somewhere between Falcon and Fox tier-wise), it's just that one of his key changes in his character borders on pointless. If you guys are fine with him having a move he doesn't really ever need to use, that's fine - I just think that's a poor design choice.

In my opinion fixing it is as easy as making his non OU smashes weaker, since I think buffing his OU smashes is the wrong direction to go with changing him, and nerfing his non-OU ones isn't that drastic of a change - it just encourages you to OU and play better. He still combos into his Smashes fairly easy, and you'll keep the charge if your OU Smash connects.

 

[bubbaking]

Also, let me restate that I don't think Lucas needs buffs. I'm of the mindset that he's in a very good place (somewhere between Falcon and Fox tier-wise), it's just that one of his key changes in his character borders on pointless. If you guys are fine with him having a move he doesn't really ever need to use, that's fine - I just think that's a poor design choice.

Ganon's utilt.

In my opinion fixing it is as easy as making his non OU smashes weaker, since I think buffing his OU smashes is the wrong direction to go with changing him, and nerfing his non-OU ones isn't that drastic of a change - it just encourages you to OU and play better. He still combos into his Smashes fairly easy, and you'll keep the charge if your OU Smash connects.

But we want everyone to be Top Tier. Lucas isn't very Top Tier-like. Buffing OU smashes is Top Tier-like.

 

[GunBlaze]

A near-spacie level character with a broken mechanic, and you want him even better? The ****, bubba?

 

[bubbaking]

Near spacee level? Since when? No insta-aerials (that kill), an arguably worse recovery, worse killing power all-around except on throws, non-lagless projectiles, a much slower 'shine' that isn't JC-able until cooldown. Like, the only thing Lucas has over the spacees is a kill-throw, an easier projectile to hit-confirm off of, and DJCs. In my book, Lucas is High Tier material, around the same level as Wolf (and maybe Pit). Now, IMO, that's 'balanced' but everyone wants P:M to be balanced around Top Tiers, so I guess it isn't.

Edit: Broken mechanic? WGS just spent all that time to prove that OU smashes are the very opposite of that, especially when compared to his regular smashes (which are laggy as heck, except for his fsmash).

 

[SpiderMad]

a much slower 'shine' that isn't JC-able until cooldown.

I thought it's instant

 

[Oracle]

He's definitely not near space animal good, but he's good enough to not warrant buffs.
Side note: how do I ignore users?

WGS: I've found the difference in kill percents in the OU smashes to be pretty relevant. F smash is basically worthless without charge, and there are lots of times where I get and upsmash uncharged and it would have killed were it charged. It may not be his best technique, but its still quite useful

It isnt instant; the hitbox comes out on lucas' jump, not on the first frame

 

[leelue]

You can't say that a character isn't near spacies level and then say he isn't bad enough to warrant being improved.
Everyone is, sadly, supposed to be box/balco level.

Add to that the fact that The Second someone says nerf faxco someone else says "just buff everyone else" for some reason.

That there is one of the biggest schisms in the opinions here.

Angel
It's in user cp, at the top. Then on the left-hand side there's an option like "block user" or something like that.

 

[Oracle]

I don't think I said that right. I mean space animal level as in being really simple/easy to play and not requiring good fundamentals. Lucas can compete with space animals but isn't really as stupid as they are, which is fine.

 

[SpiderMad]

Space animals aren't stupid, they designed laser and reflector technology

 

[bubbaking]

Lucas can compete with space animals but isn't really as stupid as they are, which is fine.

Sounds like Samus in Melee. Didn't make her any more viable. Same goes for Marth actually, unless you're saying that Lucas can compete with spacees against the entire cast and not just against the spacees themselves. Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't think I said that right. I mean space animal level as in being really simple/easy to play and not requiring good fundamentals. Lucas can compete with space animals but isn't really as stupid as they are, which is fine.

Balderdash. Easy to beat scrubs with and simple to play, requiring no fundamental understanding of the game is like, Link spamming Up-B.

Lucas is good. Fox and Falco and Pit and Sheik and Peach and Jigglypuff and Link and Mario and Lucario and probably Wolf are better.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

I was under the impression Brawl newcomers and Melee low-mid tiers had an intended balance of around Falcon level, though I know they don't have a problem with there being a new "best" character over spacies.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I was under the impression Brawl newcomers and Melee low-mid tiers had an intended balance of around Falcon level, though I know they don't have a problem with there being a new "best" character over spacies.

Seems like a silly goal to me. Intentionally making characters worse than 1/4 of the Melee cast is just

Just plain dumb.

Especially when Peach got buffs out to hell. The goal is "somewhere around Melee high and top tier," which tells me "Melee Peach or better"

 

[leelue]

Jedi, that was the optimistic goal that some members have, since falcon-a little more than falcon seems to be the sweetspot for good, fair, fun, and sustainable character design. It's hard to complain about captain falcon and link and mario in project m. Some people have gripes with ganon and wolf but they are around that sweetspot too. And if I wanted to start an argument I'd talk about sheik.

But
Basically
fox and falco and puff are the official power-level goals. A huge swath of people feel very strongly about this being a bad decision, but there are purists who want fox to be the same, people who think fox is fine, and people who think that fox might not be fine but changing him will result in a loss of the purists.