Project M Social Thread

[Strong Badam]

Monk, me, jcaesar, cmart, and yeroc afaik.

LOOool you forgot me and InternetExplorer, and I'm sure some more.

 

[leafbarrett]

I thought Lucario wasn't supposed to be able to wallcling out of ES anymore

...So basically, they're nerfing Lucario's recovery in a huge way?

 

[bubbaking]

Leaf is playing 2.1 and I can personally confirm that 2.1 Lucario can indeed wall-cling out of ES.

Edit: Or are you referring to 2.5?

 

[Asylum]

Leaf is playing 2.1 and I can personally confirm that 2.1 Lucario can indeed wall-cling out of ES.

Edit: Or are you referring to 2.5?

They were referring to 2.1.

 

[iLink]

I thought even in 2.1 he couldn't, or at least I recall them saying he shouldn't be able to so I never tried it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

He can't in the middle of ES. He can do it after the move has ended, just before special fall, by holding up against the wall. This is 2.1 I'm talking about. Idk what they've done in 2.5.

 

[bubbaking]

They were referring to 2.1.

You slick little bas****. I saw that edit.

I thought even in 2.1 he couldn't, or at least I recall them saying he shouldn't be able to so I never tried it.

Hold perpendicularly (not angled) towards the wall when you hit it during ES. Since you can't wall-cling in the middle of the move, you will be forced to go up or down the wall (usually down for me) until the end of the ES, at which time you will cling.

 

[iLink]

Oh wow that's news to me, I remember trying to wall cling like brawl at least once and just fell so I assumed it just didn't work.

 

[leelue]

On the tumble thing
I do not know exactly how this works, so correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't most of these whack accidental airdodge SDs the result of flying off the stage from a lying down state? I assume as much since you're missing a tech.

If so, what harm is levied on the general cast in making it so that you're sent into tumble if you're pushed off the stage while lying down?

Real question, looking for answer.

 

[DrinkingFood]

What if I wanted to airdodge back on? }:O didn't think about that now did you

 

[Oro?!]

Leelue, im pretty sure that would also make you go into tumble if you tech and momentum takes you off stage. If I had to choose one over the other, I would take the current format just because what you are complaining about is such a preventable situation. It only happens if you are in general trying to cc tech, but to input that tech, you need to try to tech before you even get hit since you cannot tech during hit lag. Getting the airdodge basically means that you are spamming the shoulder buttons or something.

 

[ELI-mination]

Yes I have a question. Are the recent rumors circulating true that you are advocating Ike's sword be transformed into Broccoli?

Cauliflower.

....cauliflower.

 

[leafbarrett]

Oh wow that's news to me, I remember trying to wall cling like brawl at least once and just fell so I assumed it just didn't work.

I really wish they'd just bring that back.
What they did is they set the "bounce off" angle for ES to more than 90 (100, to be exact), so even if you run perfectly straight into a wall, you won't bounce off. If it weren't for that, you'd go into a wallcling upon smacking into the wall. As is, it forces Lucario to veer off at a weird angle. However, they didn't remove ES's ability to force Lucario into wallcling if you hold towards a wall and are pressed against it, and the only time this is viable is after the movement subaction of ES ends. At east, that's my understanding of it (the second half; the part about the bounce angle is true, period).

 

[leelue]

Leelue, im pretty sure that would also make you go into tumble if you tech and momentum takes you off stage. If I had to choose one over the other, I would take the current format just because what you are complaining about is such a preventable situation. It only happens if you are in general trying to cc tech, but to input that tech, you need to try to tech before you even get hit since you cannot tech during hit lag. Getting the airdodge basically means that you are spamming the shoulder buttons or something.

If the first part is true, then I would be inclined to agree

But what if it weren't? I'm speaking in hypotheticals.

Lastly, the airdodge thing can happen if you just mistime the tech

 

[Oro?!]

As am i since im not 100% on this issue. I just know that in general since you are on the ground already and trying to tech, and there is a 20 frame buffer window for techs as well as no teching during hitlag, it is the optimal idea to input the tech right before you get hit as odd as that sounds.

 

[leelue]

As am i since im not 100% on this issue. I just know that in general since you are on the ground already and trying to tech, and there is a 20 frame buffer window for techs as well as no teching during hitlag, it is the optimal idea to input the tech right before you get hit as odd as that sounds.

In my experience, these types of things happen unexpectedly. Like a move hitting you at close to a 0 degree angle quickly. it's a bit more difficult to spot when you'll hit the stage and you perform the action on reaction. If you happen to be late, you die.

 

[Kink-Link5]

On the tumble thing
I do not know exactly how this works, so correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't most of these whack accidental airdodge SDs the result of flying off the stage from a lying down state? I assume as much since you're missing a tech.

If so, what harm is levied on the general cast in making it so that you're sent into tumble if you're pushed off the stage while lying down?

Real question, looking for answer.

Assuming the grounded fall-off state is different than tech momentum carrying off (Which it doesn't; techs carry out as your character is "magneted" to the edge, and after the tech animation is over, the left over momentum is applied to their standing state), the only things tumble would prevent is a direct air dodge and AGT by association.


Someone confirm if you can zair out of tumble with z alone?

 

[leafbarrett]

\Someone confirm if you can zair out of tumble with z alone?

Just tested it with Lucas, Link, and Toon Link. No, you can't; it only registers the attack input, so you do an aerial.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Then that is the problem with it, Hyperception. There you go.

 

[GunBlaze]

Um, guys, I think I found a problem. Sometimes, when trying to tether, I perform an aerial instead. Glitch?

 

[Rat]

Most logical thing I heard was "why should we bother representing your game if the backroom members won't."

This.

WI tournament, over half of the entrants were IL. Step it up WI.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Deja vu?

Describing the situation for when it does an aerial would help.

 

[bubbaking]

Z does that, I think. The best way to tether, IMO, is to AD > press A (while air dodging).

 

[Spoon~]

Um, guys, I think I found a problem. Sometimes, when trying to tether, I perform an aerial instead. Glitch?

Just air dodge then hit A, much more reliable than using Z.

 

[bubbaking]

And that happens in Melee too, sometimes.

 

[leafbarrett]

Well, since you can't AD out of tumble...

 

[bubbaking]

Leaf has got it!

 

[metroid1117]

Um, guys, I think I found a problem. Sometimes, when trying to tether, I perform an aerial instead. Glitch?

You might be trying to tether out of the tumble animation (in which case pressing Z might do an aerial). The best way to get out of tumble is to wriggle the control stick, which saves a double jump.

EDIT: Ninja'd lol.

 

[bubbaking]

On the tumble thing
I do not know exactly how this works, so correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't most of these whack accidental airdodge SDs the result of flying off the stage from a lying down state? I assume as much since you're missing a tech.

If so, what harm is levied on the general cast in making it so that you're sent into tumble if you're pushed off the stage while lying down?

Real question, looking for answer.

Lolz, I just covered this topic. Going into tumble for sliding off the stage would definitely not be as good as the system we have now. Recap:

That would be horrible. In Melee, sliding off an edge while lying down allows one to attack the moment they slide off without having to jump or anything, which is very useful in a lot of tight situations. Going into tumble would force one to wiggle out insanely fast or waste their jump just to go back to his neutral air state. For instance, in Melee, Samus could instantly tether the stage if she slid off it while lying down, but with this 'tumble-inducing mechanic' that would be impossible. I'd rather risk the 'accidental AD' which should be completely avoidable with experience, anyway.

-1

@LeafBarret


Granted my post was a little confusing but it was 100% accurate. Sliding off the edge while lying down in Melee allows one to do whatever he wants because it puts him in his neutral air state. By definition, 'tumble' is NOT a neutral air state. It's true that one can attack or jump straight out of tumble (which, admittedly, my post seems to contradict due to its wording), but tumble is still not the neutral air state. In the neutral air state, one can air dodge (AD) which allows him to quickly position a tether. You can't AD out of tumble, hence why Kink listed it as a possible solution to accidental ADs. Yes, it would be a solution, but it wouldn't be the best solution. Believe me, it's almost always better to be in the neutral air state instead of tumble. The only times you'd want to send yourself into tumble would be if you sent yourself into tumble through a Rising Grapple Cancel.

More on the tumble thing. There are additional exemplary situations that show that being in the neutral air state is better than being sent into tumble. For instance, consider the situation where a character is standing at the edge of a platform. If that character's shield is hit so that he slides off the platform while facing towards the edge he slid off of, he will fall normally, as if he had just walked off, and will be able to do whatever in the world he wants. He can jump, attack, AD, or just land with his 2 frames of landing lag and be on his merry way. So if he wanted to, he could AD to avoid his opponent's follow-up (or waveland) or he could just land and perform some countermeasure on the ground to protect himself or gain better positioning.

Now, if that character's shield is hit so that he slides off the platform while facing away from the edge he slid off of, he will enter tumble. That character's actions are now MUCH more restricted. He can still jump and attack, but he can no longer AD to avoid the opponent's follow-up, and if he lands, he is forced to either tech or enter hard knockdown. As you can imagine, this is greatly beneficial to the opponent as he now gets a free tech-chase. Jumping out of tumble puts one at risk of being caught without their double jump (DJ), causing juggles, and attacking forces you to land with landing lag. All of those are usually worse than just landing or wavelanding (with an AD).

What is the moral of the story? It's practically always better to be sent into the neutral air state than into tumble and if something about being sent into the neutral air state is causing you to SD accidentally, then I suggest that you become aware of and comfortable with all the situations that cause you to be put into that circumstance. It's much better, from a competitive standpoint, to just get better at certain aspects of the game, which can actually be useful, than to change them needlessly.

Edit: Why are platform edge mechanics relevant in this case? Because it would be extremely difficult to create a mechanic that could distinctly differentiate between sliding off a ledge and sliding off the edge of a plat. If the rule was to 'enter tumble' from sliding off of a ledge, then that rule would undoubtedly be induced upon sliding off of a plat, and I think I've already covered quite extensively why falling off of plats in tumble is always worse than just falling off the plat regularly.

 

[leafbarrett]

Okay, so do only Aura attacks contribute to Lucario's charges?

 

[Kink-Link5]

U-taunt, too, and not specials or I think throws/pummels?

You might be trying to tether out of the tumble animation (in which case pressing Z might do an aerial). The best way to get out of tumble is to wriggle the control stick, which saves a double jump.

EDIT: Ninja'd lol.

No need to wiggle

(But please, I support any and all wriggling)

 

[bubbaking]

Well, since you can't AD out of tumble...

You might be trying to tether out of the tumble animation (in which case pressing Z might do an aerial). The best way to get out of tumble is to wriggle the control stick, which saves a double jump.

Do you see all these problems that tumble causes, Leelue? Best if things were left the way they were. This is one case where Melee didn't screw up.

Okay, so do only Aura attacks contribute to Lucario's charges?

I believe any 'A' attack adds to Lucario's aura. Shielded hits give you half aura or something like that. Utaunt gives you 5% worth of aura so 10 taunts will give you a super.

 

[ELI-mination]

What are you talking about Bubba
Are you implying there are cases where melee DOES screw up?
Because that's blasphemy
Blasphemy I tell you

 

[Kink-Link5]

Everyone can just get a shine and we can call it a day.

Game finished. Gold release.

 

[Spoon~]

Samus bombs should drop in one frame

 

[Kink-Link5]

Samus bombs should drop in one frame

That one mechanic was cool. From the Melee trailer.

With the bomb jumps canceled into aerials.

 

[Wavebuster]

In my experience, these types of things happen unexpectedly. Like a move hitting you at close to a 0 degree angle quickly. it's a bit more difficult to spot when you'll hit the stage and you perform the action on reaction. If you happen to be late, you die.

This is a circumstance where Brawl style tethers have fringe benefits. Even if you AD offstage this way you can still Zair tether the edge if your character has one, even in situations where this still wouldn't have saved you in Melee.

 

[bubbaking]

Looks like I'm starting my own trend.

That one mechanic was cool. From the Melee trailer.

With the bomb jumps canceled into aerials.

They can already do that..... I'm sure you mean tilts cancelled into bomb jumps, but that statement is obviously more for everyone else to read.

This is a circumstance where Brawl style tethers have fringe benefits. Even if you AD offstage this way you can still Zair tether the edge if your character has one, even in situations where this still wouldn't have saved you in Melee.

When would this not have saved you in Melee, lolz? In Melee, you can fall a little bit before you pass the window of time in which you can zair. I do this to save myself from ADing offstage all the time with Samus, especially on Yoshi's slopes. If I AD off by accident when trying to WD backwards, I just fall a little bit and tether the ledge. Also, as long as you tether the ledge, you can do it at point-blank range.

There really are few instances where vBrawl tethers are straight up better than Melee tethers. I'd say the auto-sweetspot is the only real true benefit.

 

[cannedbread]

why are you replying to kink bubba he has you ignored

 

[bubbaking]

They can already do that..... I'm sure you mean tilts cancelled into bomb jumps, but that statement is obviously more for everyone else to read.

My point? I'm preventing wrong impressions from being spread by Kink's incorrect 'facts'. The trailer showed Samus cancelling tilts into bomb jumps which isn't actually possible in Melee. Bomb jumps are already normally cancellable into aerials.