Project M Social Thread

[Kink-Link5]

Loved the RAPID cancels, Vwins.

Kage, Lucario is fine, and vs Ganon... on FD, is of course going to be absurdly skewed in favor of Lucario. It's a winning matchup on Lucario's best stage.

His dash attack is dumb though.

 

[ELI-mination]

Good stuff Vwins.

I'd still **** you though.

 

[Archangel]

it's been like..6 or 7 months....how could you not know what Lucario can do by now???? Where have you all been?

 

[Spoon~]

Lucario is too ****

 

[Kink-Link5]

it's been like..6 or 7 months....how could you not know what Lucario can do by now???? Where have you all been?

'Must have never seen a dash dance Dash Attack before.

I really thought something was suspicious when I first heard that his Dash Attack was in the same cancel hierarchy as his Jab, and safe confirms out of a fast move that's easy to throw out does seem to be what I would imagine would happen.

 

[Armada]

What's with the Pit nerfs? He wasn't even top tier.

Nerfed already? =/

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Headin to NY tonight, if anyone down there is available tomorrow during the day you can try and kick my *** in P:M

btw I don't just use Link so it's not like it'll be the same **** over and over

PM me, idk who lives in NY besides leelue

 

[V-K]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Vwins

How do replays work for you guys? For me they ALWAYS desync immediately. Is it because my game is on a USB harddrive?

 

[Archangel]

Nerfed already? =/

don't believe everything you read. Pit is different slightly but he is more buffed now I think. His UpB is easier to kill with...alot easier.

 

[Hylian]

it's been like..6 or 7 months....how could you not know what Lucario can do by now???? Where have you all been?

I've watched a lot of lucario and never seen down-b used after fair and other moves to continue strings, only as a cross up move from other lucarios really.

 

[GHNeko]

How do replays work for you guys? For me they ALWAYS desync immediately. Is it because my game is on a USB harddrive?

There are 2 version of demo 2.1.

Offline version that has light presses/analog triggers as well as c-stick buffering.

Online version removes those 2 things, but then as a result you can play wifi and record replays.

 

[MonkUnit]

How do replays work for you guys? For me they ALWAYS desync immediately. Is it because my game is on a USB harddrive?

If you are using the Full codeset, then you cannot save replays or play on WiFi because they will desync. If you want to play on WiFi or use replays, you need to use the WiFi codeset.

 

[shanus]

Nerfed already? =/

We haven't published/finalized Pit's changes at this point, so I think you can ignore his comment!

In all seriousness though, this patch is aiming to not only introduce new content, but also refine aspects that we feel are limiting or overbearing in very specific circumstances. A great example is the change to Pit's fsmash behaving more like link's fsmash. There are numerous other small changes, which once we have 100% finalized, we will share.

Another example is what I posted on the last page regarding Lucario:

The next patch is looking to address some of those concerns, with a greater focus on commitment, precision, and a strong look at his shield pressure game.

We'll provide more details when they are ready.

An example here is that his shield pressure game is extremely safe (although escapable with proper roll timing on specific moves). We are looking to change aspects like this that are toxic to the game to provide a better overall experience - and we are likely to adjust the frame advantage in this case to make this move a lot less safe.

All-in-all, let's not be too hasty in speculation, and wait and see what we show you and when you first get your hands on the game!

 

[Hylian]

Btw, Hylian I pm'd you yesterday. Not sure if you got it or not.

Yeah I did. I'm trying to decide on what capture card I want. I mainly needed help with the hardward part lol I already have a twitch account and have streamed myself playing computer games before. I just need to figure out what cables to get for console streaming.

 

[Vanguard]

Nerfed already? =/

Not to worry; we encourage you to wait and see for yourself the full list of changes to Pit, the rest of the cast, and to the engine, before coming to conclusions on the potency of the character.

There are still changes we've yet to show, so please stay open-minded and confident. You'll be able to decide for yourself soon enough.

On another note, about Replays. Unfortunately Replays have still not been fixed for 2.5. For now you'll have to share with others via your own recordings.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nerfed already? =/

Only one glide in the air, and faster damage falloff on arrows.

It doesn't affect you much at all but still lol.

 

[Archangel]

I'm still iffy about the single glide in the air. He's an angel...he should be flying right? It really really ****s with his continued combo game to only have a single air glide...it's kinda stupid tbh. Just stop getting timed out by Gurukid and then rage-changing the glide

 

[DrinkingFood]

He's gotten/getting/may get a plethora of "buffs" as well as "nerfs" which really even out and make it more of something along the lines of playstyle tweaking. He's going to have an easier time killing now, for example (improved fsmash, up-b with better sourspot/no sourpot/whatever they did) if he stays the way he is.
Also I can't decide if arrows moving slower is a good thing or not.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm still iffy about the single glide in the air. He's an angel...he should be flying right? It really really ****s with his continued combo game to only have a single air glide...it's kinda stupid tbh. Just stop getting timed out by Gurukid and then rage-changing the glide

To be fair, Pit was basically just a better, faster Jigglypuff with those glides.

 

[Archangel]

He's gotten/getting/may get a plethora of "buffs" as well as "nerfs" which really even out and make it more of something along the lines of playstyle tweaking. He's going to have an easier time killing now, for example (improved fsmash, up-b with better sourspot/no sourpot/whatever they did) if he stays the way he is.
Also I can't decide if arrows moving slower is a good thing or not.

vs characters like Sonic and Falco it's clearly a bad thing.

Also...unless he's falco on stage there is no reason to nerf his wings like that tbh. Having 1 glide is not just a blow to his combo game. It's also a blow to his recovery.

It would be like removing peaches float cancel because she's buffed in Project M. Does that make sense?

 

[Kink-Link5]

It also dramatically affects his baiting and spacing game, unless he got other buffs in that area to compensate, like a better air weaving ability or better bair/fair hitboxes.

 

[Archangel]

The only way to make up for that is to change his aerial mobility to something like Jiggs in order for him to catch people.


I mean...anyone who plays pit now will tell you removing the 2nd glide is just...dumb.

even if he has 2 when it starts on the ground...you might as well just completely remove it. What are you going to do? Combo-land then glide-under someone and suddenly fly up to them-get another hit- then glide- hit? how is that going to work?...simple...it won't..

 

[Kink-Link5]

If his "Weak" glide- the one where he tries it for the third time right now- happens when doing his second glide, but if it can be canceled like the normal glide if it is done right away, it might not be so bad.

 

[DrinkingFood]

His recovery is still ****in' ridiculous. I'm not sure what you're complaining about. His offstage game will also be still ridiculous. The only limitation is now sometimes you will have to wait to touch the ground before gliding off stage. Remember that if you glide from the ground, you still have an aerial glide.

"It won't work, simple"

-How losers are born
just don't try

 

[jalued]

vs characters like Sonic and Falco it's clearly a bad thing.

Also...unless he's falco on stage there is no reason to nerf his wings like that tbh. Having 1 glide is not just a blow to his combo game. It's also a blow to his recovery.

It would be like removing peaches float cancel because she's buffed in Project M. Does that make sense?

I think they are trying to make him a more aggressive character:

Better kill moves (fsmash and upB) and a worse recovery make his games faster and he doesn't have to reply on camping to get the opponent to 180%+ to be able to reliably kill them.

Pit may have had an incredible recovery in 2.1, which allowed him to live to high percentages (150%+). However his low kill power also ensured that the opponents would live even later (snake ~ 200%).

 

[Kink-Link5]

I have no qualms with his recovery. Marth proves a good recovery isn't needed to do well. It's the potential of a worse baiting game and loss of a big part of what makes his game safe that is suspect.

 

[Armada]

Shanus: I see but from what I have heard so far (guess you can tell me if it's true).

"pit - got a link style fsmash. can only glide once in the air if he started in the air. up b seems to be all sweet spot now and reliable for a kill. side B momentum looks smoother. Arrows look slower and may be even more weak at a distance. (they looped an arrow on smash ville and it hit a balloon and the ballon didn't pop which means it did less than 1% damage) "

Link style f-smash? Like in melee?
In that case it will be worse then it used to be.

Only glide once in the air - Makes the recovery and combo game way worse. Also baiting people is worse for sure.

Upp-b always sweet spot - Still the same strentgh as it had before? Cause then it is at best a very small buff cause a great player should be able to end the combo with that sweet spot anyway. The weak hit MAYBE has a potencial to be a combo move too (but a litte buff overall I guess)

Side B momentum looks smoother - How? Sounds like a buff for sure

Arrows are slower -(DrinkingFood look here) Sounds worse for sure. Easier to controll but once again. High level players should be able to controll them regardless so beeing slower is worse (also weaker is worse).

Well I will not judge to quick and I will wait and see what the new versions is like but so far it seems like much more nerfs then buffs (espeically side B in the air).

 

[ELI-mination]

Headin to NY tonight, if anyone down there is available tomorrow during the day you can try and kick my *** in P:M

btw I don't just use Link so it's not like it'll be the same **** over and over

PM me, idk who lives in NY besides leelue

Where in NY?

 

[Vanguard]

@Armada
You'll be happy to know there is a lot missing from that list.
I look forward to your reactions and comments when we release the demo and change lists.

 

[Armada]

That sounds better =)
Can you send me a PM when the list is out?

I look into this thread sometimes but this thread is getting a lot of posts fast so hard to keep up sometimes. I also don't have a wii cause it is destroyed so I usually only play it at KFC tournaments XD

 

[SpiderMad]

Unfortunately Replays have still not been fixed for 2.5. For now you'll have to share with others via your own recordings.

I'm glad for this, I love the wifi version air dodge.

 

[Archangel]

His recovery is still ****in' ridiculous. I'm not sure what you're complaining about. His offstage game will also be still ridiculous. The only limitation is now sometimes you will have to wait to touch the ground before gliding off stage. Remember that if you glide from the ground, you still have an aerial glide.

"It won't work, simple"

-How losers are born
just don't try

I hate to pull a Leffen...but you are an idiot. You have no idea what you are talking about. Especially when it comes to pit. So please shut up and let the adults speak.

I think they are trying to make him a more aggressive character:

Better kill moves (fsmash and upB) and a worse recovery make his games faster and he doesn't have to reply on camping to get the opponent to 180%+ to be able to reliably kill them.

Pit may have had an incredible recovery in 2.1, which allowed him to live to high percentages (150%+). However his low kill power also ensured that the opponents would live even later (snake ~ 200%).

I know that and I discussed it in PM's with Cmart a few months back. I will wait and see how much of the trade carries over into the positive. I just think too much of this is based on how well pit will do vs Fast falling characters with no aerial mobility. Some characters it's really important that when you get them started with a combo you have to finish them. "Do it now Gohan" situation. I like the idea of aggression but what people aren't understand is the glide is a double edged sword. Both defensive and offensive in how it can be used. Removing a glide limits his offense and defense, as well as his recovery which is only ridiculous in terms of how it is used Horizontally. not to mention if you hit him in his glide he loses his glide. So with a single glide being know horizontally and down....Pit seems kind of free to edgeguard now.

but..whatever.

If it's a complete style change I'll wait and see how the new style works and compare the 2 styles.

 

[cannedbread]

shats fred

 

[DrinkingFood]

I hate to pull a Leffen...but you are an idiot. You have no idea what you are talking about. Especially when it comes to pit. So please shut up and let the adults speak.

I won't dignify that with an actual response.

 

[V-K]

There are 2 version of demo 2.1.

Offline version that has light presses/analog triggers as well as c-stick buffering.

Online version removes those 2 things, but then as a result you can play wifi and record replays.

Is it worth it getting the online version or does the gameplay suffer from it?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Online version does not remove light pressing, Neko; it FORCES light pressing for everything.

 

[9Kplus1]

You cannot SDI, buffer rolls, spotdodges, or jumps with the c-stick when using the wifi gct. Also, you can airdodge with a light shield press -- which can be a double-edged sword, but overall is a hindrance to gameplay.

edit: o, eff you, kink

 

[GHNeko]

Online version does not remove light pressing, Neko; it FORCES light pressing for everything.

Ah. remembered wrong.

gomen gomen.

spotty memory issues.

 

[iLink]

I've watched a lot of lucario and never seen down-b used after fair and other moves to continue strings, only as a cross up move from other lucarios really.

Lucarios have been doing that since like... before the demo was even public lol

@shanus:

An example here is that his shield pressure game is extremely safe (although escapable with proper roll timing on specific moves). We are looking to change aspects like this that are toxic to the game to provide a better overall experience - and we are likely to adjust the frame advantage in this case to make this move a lot less safe.

What move are you referring to? Also, I'm genuinely curious about any ideas you guys have for address the concerns.

I gave it some thought myself, and at first I just came out with some basic stuff like lower the damag (thus lowering the shield stun) on dash attack and maybe tacking on like a frame or 2 of more startup on sideb.

Then I really thought about how to address Lucario's issues. Lucario's main tools for him are his Dash Attack coupled with his great dash dance, and DownB when in the neutral game. I think making his dash attack less ridiculous and making his aerial approach more appealing would be something to look into. A lot of the issues people have with Lucario stem from how good his dash attack is. So good that I think it defines him a little too much.

I don't really think jab > sideb on shield is much of an issue. When we went through the frame data earlier on, its only about a frame or 2 faster then just grabbing someone at that range and is even escapable with multiple options. I don't think aerials > sideb on shield are really too much of an issue either because his aerial are also pretty punishable on whiff IMO. Heck, he is really punishable on most of his whiffed attacks so making him unsafe on whiff and even on shield would really hinder the character to the point where it's just risky to attack at all. I think he should rightfully have a strong close up game considering his limited approach options. Maybe weaking his overly strong single option but broadening his options to make up for how less potent it is could be something that would address some concerns.

Just some rambling thoughts.

 

[Sneak8288]

I haven't played PM in forever.. I need to get back into this game again. That Lucario stuff was definitely fun to watch