Project M Social Thread

[`dazrin]

^ yup.

Thats what I'm talking about.

 

[Life]

Doesn't eruption as an edge guard lose to sweet spotting anyway? I'd rather QD fair offstage or something if I had the time.

 

[Red(SP)]

Doesn't eruption as an edge guard lose to sweet spotting anyway? I'd rather QD fair offstage or something if I had the time.

The sweetspot for the spike is under the tip of the sword. If you didn't mean that, then I don't know what you could possibly be referring to.

 

[Citrus]

He's referring to sweet spotting the ledge.

 

[PEEF!]

Doesn't eruption as an edge guard lose to sweet spotting anyway? I'd rather QD fair offstage or something if I had the time.

Look at his feet. Look at where the sword goes. Tell me if you think sweetspots can beat that.

 

[cannedbread]

probably no one
maybe ness' can
iirc he has the largest sweetspot in the game

 

[DMG]

That would also probably have to be sweetspotted sideways, not vertically. Ike's huge peepee sword does NOT look easy to get past there lol.

 

[Spoon~]

That would also probably have to be sweetspotted sideways, not vertically. Ike's huge peepee sword does NOT look easy to get past there lol.

Sideways looks worse than below for sweetspot. Look how far out it hits.

 

[PEEF!]

Don't quote me on this but I don't think there is any character in the game that can sweetspot against that if it is well timed. The hitbox goes a bit below the screen that he is even being portrayed on. That means it hits more than half of an Ike bodylength below the stage lol.

 

[Life]

Could have sworn that looked different on my phone, ah well.

 

[MaxThunder]

That's... a bit over the top, actuallly... probably the most stupid-good move in the game atm...

 

[DMG]

Sideways looks worse than below for sweetspot. Look how far out it hits.

The fully charged one... dear god

The not fully charged one though, idk maybe some characters could manage it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Don't quote me on this but I don't think there is any character in the game that can sweetspot against that if it is well timed. The hitbox goes a bit below the screen that he is even being portrayed on. That means it hits more than half of an Ike bodylength below the stage lol.

I wouldn't be surprised if the timing was very tight for characters with large sweetspots though, making it a lot less efficient an edge guard for those characters.

Also, all this is assuming Ike has time to position himself on the very edge of the stage and then start the move and finish just as the opponent gets to the ledge or to the stage. Many recoveries are fast, and many characters are able to recover high. A lot of the vibe I'm getting from reading your guys's posts is that this move is "too good" because it's a "one size fits all" edge guard when that's just not the case. It's pretty easy to mess up by starting the charge without knowing where your opponent is going to recover (which winll be the case a lot of times given how slow th ehitboxes come out) only to have them miss the spike hitbox and hit the upwards, outwards knockback hit boxes that will only kill at high damages with decent charge, causing them to not only survive, but give them a chance to DI their knockback mostly upwards and actually INCREASE the likelihood of them getting back onstage.

 

[DMG]

Ofc not, the move isn't fast enough to be "too good". And given Ike's plethora of edge guarding options, ranging from offstage aerials to the trusted FSMASH onstage, it frankly doesn't matter how good this is or not lol. But you gotta admit, the hitbox on that thing, along with spiking, looks wowzers

 

[DrinkingFood]

Except for situations where you know you're going to have almost a full second to prepare (positioning+startup) AND your opponent is going to be forced to go for a low recovery (say you knocked fox to the lower outer limits of his recovery) I'd say it's one of his inferior edge guarding options, given that he has other amazing edge guarding tools (see: F-air). Especially for the fact that missing the spike will practically aid their recovery.

It does look good, but I don't think it quite gives what you would expect of it.
But jumping off for a neutral b spike, now that is hella sexy. QD-> turnaround jump-> neutral b facing stage without losing momentum->spike would be the most amazing thing ever.

 

[Strong Badam]

Why exactly are you discussing edgeguarding with a move that sends upward....

 

[drsusredfish]

so since its not a great edgeguard move and he has many other ways to edgeguard would anyone mind if the hitboxes are made smaller and it no longer spiked low recoveries.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Bad moves to edgeguard are all the rage these days SB. The other day I edgeguarded with Marth's U-smash then died.

 

[cannedbread]

ike is sympathetic sometimes...

 

[DMG]

ike is sympathetic sometimes...

He fights for his friends

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

So no one plays Zelda? Any good videos at least?

 

[MaxThunder]

Bad moves to edgeguard are all the rage these days SB. The other day I edgeguarded with Marth's U-smash then died.

hey i did that on a fox once... he got surprised and died...

 

[V-K]

If you look at Ike objectively then he really seems almost too strong compared to other characters. His range is very high, his power is really high, his speed is really high, his recovery is hard to edgeguard. I personally think he already gained a lot from the L Cancel, I'm not sure if he needed the side B improvements.

Of course the PMBR shouldn't rush anything and watch Ike players over a longer period of time to eventually decide what they want to tweak.
But the match between Vro and Darkrain was kind of painful to watch. Ike is just so much better than Falcon.

 

[cannedbread]

oooooh bby
reminds me of this sick af zelda thing i did against my brother's lucas on fd
i set 3 dins on the floor near the ledge
and i fsmashed his shield
he slid into the dins and pop went his shield
and he fell off the stage in that shieldbreak stun animation
was a fresh stock btw
i wish i had recorded it ;_;

but sorry for rambling
sanity's_thief you should visit the zelda boards on smashmods forums

 

[Kink-Link5]

Ike carries a huge amount of risk to him that offsets his reward. Not enough Ike's are walling and stalling yet, but overall he has essentially similar flaws to Marth. A good dash dance, aerial mobility, shutdown game, pressure, and any combination there of give him trouble. I would call it a huge stretch to say Ike is "so much better than Falcon" in either the case of the matchup itself, or as a character on the whole.

In the sense of easy hit confirms into more things though, yes, he does so better than Falcon.

 

[cannedbread]

i just don't think ike has weaknesses that are as easy to exploit as the rest of the cast
like marf can't really kill besides gimps and a lucky tipper
and he doesn't have a reasonable response to pressure
even characters that are mad gud like zelda have weaknesses that you can see from just looking at her
ike has some weaknesses but are they just as easy or easier to exploit them than the rest of the cast?

 

[crush]

Ike carries a huge amount of risk to him that offsets his reward. Not enough Ike's are walling and stalling yet, but overall he has essentially similar flaws to Marth. A good dash dance, aerial mobility, shutdown game, pressure, and any combination there of give him trouble. I would call it a huge stretch to say Ike is "so much better than Falcon" in either the case of the matchup itself, or as a character on the whole.

In the sense of easy hit confirms into more things though, yes, he does so better than Falcon.

hoow the **** does ike havesimilar flaws to marth.caan u define a 'good shutdown game' or the other things that give him trouble. the games been out for like 3 months dude for ****s sake sstop talking like you know aanything melee is like ****in 11 years old and people still only know 2 matchups

also im pretty sure u live in connecticut, so even though you dont aactually go to troonaments/smashfests (aka you pretty much have 0 expeerience playing competitive smash) if u ever do go to atronament ill mm u any amount in melee or PM, which is a pretty good offer since im not good.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

His list was talking about sound effects LOL, not character viability/MU's.

Charizard gliding noise... ARUUUUARUUUUUUUU

I raise you one (Xenoblade spoilers ahead)

Spoiler

Dikson's (stupid filters won't let me spell it correctly) sound effect when he uses Chaos Dash. It sounds like a dieing whale defiantly screaming as a horde of sharks dine upon its flesh. An example is here at ~12:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0xFO_iWoH4

.

Ike carries a huge amount of risk to him that offsets his reward. Not enough Ike's are walling and stalling yet, but overall he has essentially similar flaws to Marth. A good dash dance, aerial mobility, shutdown game, pressure, and any combination there of give him trouble. I would call it a huge stretch to say Ike is "so much better than Falcon" in either the case of the matchup itself, or as a character on the whole.

In the sense of easy hit confirms into more things though, yes, he does so better than Falcon.

I see Ike as the Sheik of this game. Certain characters are able to handle him assuming the player is intelligent, but others have to work much harder than the Ike does in order to be able to keep up. From my experience there aren't any characters that are horrifically outclassed, but it seems like it might be borderline unbalanced at times and some edits will be needed eventually.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Crush, please attempt to make your posts legible if you want me to respond to them in a serious context of discussion. If you don't want to have an adult conversation than please refrain from hindering the people that do.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Crush, please attempt to make your posts legible if you want me to respond to them in a serious context of discussion. If you don't want to have an adult conversation than please refrain from hindering the people that do.

by holy decree of the PMBR we command you to money match him.

 

[Kink-Link5]

But I'm not good at video games.

I live in Iowa.

 

[DMG]

Iowa?


SCANDALOUS

 

[Kink-Link5]

When I've mastered the art of VEHICULAR TRANSPORTATION, I can make the 4 hour drive up to play with Toaster and Monk, but I still can't make left turns after two months of practice, so it might be a while.

 

[DMG]

Left turns you say?

Well that rules you out as a NASCAR driver


I'm playing Shiek after watching Vanz. New idol

 

[Archangel]

Sheik is OP'd she needs nerfs.

 

[DMG]

She can stop Ike.

I'm sold.

 

[cannedbread]

i'm also convinced that sonic and pit can stop him too

i was gonna say zelda does too but i think it's about even, slightly in zeldas favor imo

 

[JCaesar]

Personally I think Ike's worst matchups are Marth and Link.

 

[Deleted member]

People should really take this advice, almost the only person who talks about how to deal with Ike or what his flaws are is Umbreon(maybe it's better on smashmods, I haven't checked in a while), though he takes it a bit far, the rest of the posts seem to be pretty much complaining about how OP Ike is, or saying that results show he is good.

I'd say a lot of people are underestimating how much matchup unfamiliarity matters, not knowing how to deal with something is not the same as that something being broken.

Personally, I don't have much Ike experience, yet I still feel it's too early for people to be calling things overpowered.

I have 2 relevant conversations to address this, and I think both are worth the reading time:

[22:49] SWF Strong Bad: so ike is terrible
[22:49] mycatgoesmow: you think so?
[22:49] SWF Strong Bad: no
[22:49] mycatgoesmow: i think he did much better than i expected
[22:50] mycatgoesmow: that said, i saw a lot less of the fast dashing characters than i expected also
[22:50] SWF Strong Bad: ike is amazing, and was 1 game from taking the whole tournament for 3 straight games
[22:51] mycatgoesmow: i guess he's pretty good if no one is running what i think he loses to
[22:51] mycatgoesmow: and apparently they didn't
[22:51] mycatgoesmow: i'm more surprised that the jigglypuff beat him really
[22:52] mycatgoesmow: i'd imagine ike would be pretty strong against strategies based on aerial mobility
[22:54] SWF Strong Bad: idk, we all think that vro choked
[22:54] SWF Strong Bad: vro 2-0'd hbox in bracket before the RR
[22:55] mycatgoesmow: yeah i saw their first set
[22:55] mycatgoesmow: man that stream had a ton of stream monsters lol
[22:55] SWF Strong Bad: lol
[22:56] mycatgoesmow: i said i think ike sucks because he's exploitable by fast dashing strategies that abuse his poor landing coverage, and then someone asked me who was good, and i said idk the game is well balanced but i think jigglypuff is still good, she's hard to pin and still effective at what she does, and then we saw ike beat jigglypuff and leffen went ****ing crazy about how i said ike sucks and that jigglypuff is good
[22:56] mycatgoesmow: totally disregarding the strategy behind the statements, and also disregarding that maybe hbox just got outplayed
[22:57] SWF Strong Bad: i think vro 3-0'd darkrain tho
[22:57] mycatgoesmow: yeah but darkrain doesn't just dashdance camp for 5 minutes
[22:57] mycatgoesmow: don't get me wrong darkrain is good at what he does but strategy isn't in there
[22:58] mycatgoesmow: i watched the stream for a good while and i didn't see any players using typical ground control strategies to make jumping a risky prospect for ike
[22:59] mycatgoesmow: that said, if the players don't exploit the character, then the character is definitely better in a relative sense, so i'll admit that ike is pretty good until the players adapt to him
[23:00] mycatgoesmow: idk to me it's like saying that marth beats fox on FD, and then none of the marths chaingrab the fox so it looks like fox wins?
[23:00] mycatgoesmow: horrible strawman i know but the comparison might give you my perspective at least
[23:01] mycatgoesmow: i also neglected that i think the players would have to dashdance camp well for it to be a hole with ike, but most of the players from melee can't even dashdance well, let alone in a new game and where the players are unwilling to do it
[23:02] mycatgoesmow: a lot of things would have to change for ike to be bad the way i said he was in the thread over and over
[23:12] mycatgoesmow: anyway since you're clearly going to post this conversation about ike in the PMBR, tell me why i'm wrong about anything i've said so far
[23:13] SWF Strong Bad: i rarely post AIM convos in the pmbr
[23:13] SWF Strong Bad: and certainly not this one
[23:13] SWF Strong Bad: i mostly wanted to see if you had changed your mind about ike post-FC
[23:14] mycatgoesmow: i haven't changed my mind about ike
[23:14] mycatgoesmow: rather, i acknowledge that how players approach the character is different than what i expected
[23:14] mycatgoesmow: i expected the players to favor faster mobility characters and to use dashdancing like a crutch, and this natural sequence would expose this hole
[23:15] mycatgoesmow: instead it never happened and vro was talented enough to get to the finals
[23:15] SWF Strong Bad: I tried to DK a lot against vro in friendlies
[23:15] SWF Strong Bad: it didn't really work out
[23:15] SWF Strong Bad: might just be DK
[23:15] mycatgoesmow: it's DK
[23:16] mycatgoesmow: it's a bit old but you can watch my matches against jcaesars group with sheik in random matches on youtube, if you play that way, ike can do very little to defend against well-placed grabs
[23:16] SWF Strong Bad: MD/VA ikes are terrible
[23:16] mycatgoesmow: yeah they are
[23:17] mycatgoesmow: but thats not what i'm basing my ideas off of
[23:17] mycatgoesmow: it's more that i can't think of a way for the character to cover this hole
[23:17] mycatgoesmow: now i think you can play around a hole and still succeed, this isn't brawl
[23:17] mycatgoesmow: but i never expected players to disregard what i consider his weak point
[23:17] mycatgoesmow: it doesn't really matter why i was wrong though, in the end i was just wrong

RyokoYaksa: That's only because the top tier characters from Melee are not chain grabbable by Sheik.
RyokoYaksa: And that's an amazing coincidence.
mycatgoesmow: sheik's CG isn't the thing that keeps characters out of the viable tier
mycatgoesmow: it's because they're not as good
mycatgoesmow: at everything
mycatgoesmow: against all of the better characters
mycatgoesmow: sheik's CG might be stupid but it's definitely less stupid than other top tier tools, and it's definitely less stupid than removing it and ruining the character
mycatgoesmow: and it's definitely less stupid than removing it and not even replacing the combo throw aspect of it
RyokoYaksa: would that be implying that if Sheik could CG her top tier contenders, she wouldn't shoot up to the stop?
mycatgoesmow: probably not tbh, people would be more likely to develop CP strategies or better platform games to compete with it
mycatgoesmow: like they did in melee
mycatgoesmow: for 10 years
mycatgoesmow: even if for some reason every tournament devolved into sheik CG dittos, at least then you'd have evidence to justify removing it
mycatgoesmow: rather than just pissing on the character entirely
mycatgoesmow: there's 0 evidence to suggest that it's unfit for competitive play outside of smash theory
RyokoYaksa: because you don't players aware of or wanting to use them, then it must not be a problem
RyokoYaksa: like child labor
mycatgoesmow: if it's a problem, THEN you fix it
RyokoYaksa: it was a problem
mycatgoesmow: right, sheik won all of the tournaments with her downthrow
RyokoYaksa: there were all these character being revamped / developed upon for PM
RyokoYaksa: but still got crapped on by Sheik's dthrow by itself
mycatgoesmow: i bet if sheik had NTSC downthrow, she'd be on all of these stream videos too
RyokoYaksa: and again, Sheik does not dthrow chain her top tier competitors by coincidence
mycatgoesmow: chaingrabbing herself
RyokoYaksa: Stop bringing that up.
mycatgoesmow: why are the developers trying to be the ones that decide whats viable rather than the player skill and innovation in long term testing?
RyokoYaksa: Why are you not even trying to explore new options?
mycatgoesmow: because i don't like the new options as long as they're strictly inferior to the old ones
RyokoYaksa: I'm sorry but on my ears you just sound like an entitled crybaby.
mycatgoesmow: and all i see is a game developer that won't let the game strategically develop, you'd rather solve theoretical problems with guesswork and assumptions?
RyokoYaksa: I distinctly remember you saying to leave the dthrow as it is and actually admit poor balance.
RyokoYaksa: In regards to that one move.
mycatgoesmow: tons of moves are like that
RyokoYaksa: Which would be missing a goal.
mycatgoesmow: falco's laser is horribly stupid, but i don't think you should change it
mycatgoesmow: free stage control everywhere forever, seems balanced to me
RyokoYaksa: There's a globally easier means of dealing with it now thanks to the PS reflect mechanic.
mycatgoesmow: it's all assumptions and guesswork
mycatgoesmow: let the game be only mostly balanced and let the players show you whats stupid
mycatgoesmow: fix it after you know what the real deal is
mycatgoesmow: atm changing sheik's downthrow is just an uninformed decision
RyokoYaksa: Before you say so, it wasn't just thrown out by one person.
RyokoYaksa: It was stewing for many months before her new changes were decided to be adopted for the set.
mycatgoesmow: then it was thrown out by multiple people without testing and results
mycatgoesmow: the baseline is that you'll never really know how stupid it was
mycatgoesmow: and if you were right or not
RyokoYaksa: it had plenty of testing
RyokoYaksa: that much you know
mycatgoesmow: did sheik win everything with her stupid downthrow?
mycatgoesmow: were your best players unable to adapt and beat it?
RyokoYaksa: It depends on who was the opponent.
mycatgoesmow: oh wait, so you're saying some people could actually beat sheik's downthrow?
RyokoYaksa: Character-wise.
mycatgoesmow: and you don't think viability of strategies should have anything to do with what decides character viability?
mycatgoesmow: i'd make a joke about falco laser beating slow characters but none of them are slow anymore
RyokoYaksa: You may think Dthrow is fun personally, but I and many other found it boring.
RyokoYaksa: Fight Zelda, switch to Sheik and dthrow all day.
mycatgoesmow: i think having to play around what my opponent does is exciting
RyokoYaksa: that and there are easier methods to get grabs in this game
mycatgoesmow: because no one has a ****ty dash
mycatgoesmow: right
mycatgoesmow: while we're at it, no one can punish sheik back when they grab her
RyokoYaksa: no, the turnaround grab from Brawl
mycatgoesmow: only sheik has the golden fingers
mycatgoesmow: i appreciate that the PMBR decided to just let the game go so that the players can actually develop it
mycatgoesmow: i just wish it'd happened before there were any unnecessary changes
mycatgoesmow: i also appreciate necessary changes
mycatgoesmow: i just don't think sheik's throw needed to be changed, and i never saw any evidence that suggested similar

Also, sheik mains who have a problem with the new changes,(I'm looking at you, umbreon) and sheik mains in general should see this thread: www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-5032.html

I read the whole thing. Thank you.

 

[leffen]

lol at ike placing 2nd proving anything for how good he is

its not like no one plays this game seriously and the easy2play characters always dominate early...

Kanji in P4A is bottomtier (worst character) yet he always places 2/1st in the P4a tournaments in USA.

Hugo always ***** early SFXT

Zangief ***** Yun/Yang early SSFIV then got *****

Wesker in UMVC3

GET IT?

also the level of play at FC was atrocious lmfao. Vro is clearly a player who just relies on ppl not knowing **** about the game and has very subpar mentality (clearly choked his *** off) Europe/Sweden would've taken the tournament for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE if we were there jesus


umbreon ike does not lose to dash in, jesus get over yourself **** you