Project M Social Thread

[ClinkStryphart]

Lucas looks awesome. Um a questions about Ness though and Lucas also. I know that in B+ even though I know this is P:M for some odd reason when you do their neutrals B's in the air they send you in to special fall is this going to be fixed for them?


Suggestion: I know this game is supposed to be like Melee also but I think it would be cool if you guys could actually give Ness a powerboost like how Lucas has since in E.B. he actually gets a power boost.

 

[Sneak8288]

I think speed up could work, have him charge a la lucas, move faster overall but do less damage for like 5 or 10 seconds. And you would have to sacrifice damage and kb output for speed... i think it would be a fair trade? Discuss

 

[Sterowent]

well, first of all, it'd have to be seamlessly introduced so as to not knock off his legacy moveset. for that reason, i think, if he were to have this ability, he'd have to drop his own PK flash onto himself. it'd be about the same time as lucas's takes, you'd have an excuse to say he got a boost of some sort, and opponents would be forced to intercept him rather than shield or wait to punish.

 

[Ulevo]

Yeahhhh, Wolf is reaaally good somehow.

Maybe we should "SpeedUp" Ness's PK Flash?

Speaking of Wolf, can he Waveshine? His Reflector is already really good, I'm excited to see it's application in the new P:M.

Also... What's the plan with Toon Link? I realize he's in some form or manner a Brawl representation of the Melee Young Link, but they are very different characters from one another. Are you going to be keeping Toon Link in, or are you going to attempt to transform him in to Young Link?

I'd personally like to see Toon Link stay, but that's my take of course.

 

[Shell]

Interesting idea but very difficult (or impossible) to code.

@Ulevo: Picture Young Link with a higher DJ, Brawl Bair / Fair/ Usmash, Useful Zair attack, and better recovery.

 

[Sneak8288]

I always seen ness's neutral b as pretty useless but maybe because im not a ness main. It was rare for ppl to edgeguard with it in melee.

 

[Anth0ny]

OMG Minus playing Project M <3

I really need to go to a tourney for once and test this out >_>

 

[humble]

That Lucas vid was awesome, though not as much tech skill as I'd hoped.

Personally I love PK flash, and look back fondly upon the times I've blasted scrubby snakes off of cypher. Dunno why people wanna make Ness a clone of Lucas, they get them different Bs, and people think they need to be cloney again. If PK flash just detonated faster/earlier, it'd kick ***. Could you make it so he can drop it past the ledge?

 

[Dan_X]

I think Sneak meant change Ness's neutral B to the Earthbound attack SpeedUp, just like we changed Lucas's to OffenseUp. I have no idea how that would work though. And PK Flash is more iconic to Ness than PK Freeze was to Lucas.

Oops, my bad. I'm not familiar with the Earthbound games.

The forward B needs sound(at least I didn't hear his saying "PK freeze".

Seems like a good idea, however, in practice that audio cue becomes VERY annoying. Think of how often Lucas uses his side+B? Yes, he uses it constantly. That would get real annoying real fast.

I'm fairly certain we tried it with the audio cue and came to that conclusion.

It's better the way it is.

 

[Sneak8288]

That Lucas vid was awesome, though not as much tech skill as I'd hoped.

Personally I love PK flash, and look back fondly upon the times I've blasted scrubby snakes off of cypher. Dunno why people wanna make Ness a clone of Lucas, they get them different Bs, and people think they need to be cloney again. If PK flash just detonated faster/earlier, it'd kick ***. Could you make it so he can drop it past the ledge?

If it detonated and or moved faster it would most likely get a damage and kb nerf or it would probably end up OP. It would be like a quick and mobile falcon punch with a beast hitbox lol

 

[Dan_X]

^^I'd say leave it as is-- for now. If we deem it necessary for a buff later then sure. As I've said, I already use it as an edge guard pressuring move on occasion.

 

[SonioNineteen]

Does Trips from moves still exist in P:M ?

I saw atleast one in the lucas vid so I'm guessing it will stay.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

IDK, Tripping does not seem very Meleesque at all.

 

[Dan_X]

Does Trips from moves still exist in P:M ?

I saw atleast one in the lucas vid so I'm guessing it will stay.

It's been discussed quite a bit amongst the team. So far it seems as though the majority of the team wants all move induced tripping to go, in fact, it has already been removed from a large number of moves already (like Pika's Dtilt for example). The only tripping most of us can agree on is tripping induced by Diddy's nannerz. If we were to keep the trip hitboxes on certain moves we'd make them make more sense, like make them a reward for near perfect spacing, something you could practically attempt to achieve with spacing. That's the only way we'd keep move induced tripping.

 

[SonioNineteen]

It's been discussed quite a bit amongst the team. So far it seems as though the majority of the team wants all move induced tripping to go, in fact, it has already been removed from a large number of moves already (like Pika's Dtilt for example). The only tripping most of us can agree on is tripping induced by Diddy's nannerz. If we were to keep the trip hitboxes on certain moves we'd make them make more sense, like make them a reward for near perfect spacing, something you could practically attempt to achieve with spacing. That's the only way we'd keep move induced tripping.

ok

that make sense can't wait till this comes out.

 

[Ulevo]

If we were to keep the trip hitboxes on certain moves we'd make them make more sense, like make them a reward for near perfect spacing, something you could practically attempt to achieve with spacing. That's the only way we'd keep move induced tripping.

I actually think that's a brilliant idea. Actually, I think there are already specific moves like that at certain %. I think ZSS's forward tilt when angled down trips 100% of the time at a specific %; correct me if I am wrong here.

It give's the player a reward, and more follow up options. Attack induced tripping was never a bad mechanic; it was just subjected to randomness and made unreliable. That's my feeling anyhow.

Oh, another question (sorry), are you guys capable of reintroducing Samus's SWD? Even assuming it's possible, would you have enough code space?

 

[I R MarF]

Ugh that's one of my least favorite changes. Wolf's jab3 is so good and rapid jabs in general are so bad. Oh well, I guess it adds tech skill or something...

Wolf is really really good right now, but he has yet to be reworked into Melee. For a spacey, he's one of the most combo-resistant characters in the game (not even due to his shine, just his lack of gravity), and has an amazing recovery, and that just ain't right.

Lol, that doesn't sound right at all.

Oh, and what trajectory is Wolf's shine going to send an opponent (like Falco's knocks you angled up and Fox's knocks you forward down)

Seems like a good idea, however, in practice that audio cue becomes VERY annoying. Think of how often Lucas uses his side+B? Yes, he uses it constantly. That would get real annoying real fast.

I'm fairly certain we tried it with the audio cue and came to that conclusion.

It's better the way it is.

Thank goodness! The PK fire audio was already annoying... and doesn't Lucas actually drag out the word freeze? So his audio would have been longer than the attack itself.

 

[Ulevo]

doesn't Lucas actually drag out the word freeze? So his audio would have been longer than the attack itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVX-X3YCW8k&feature=related

Yeah, essential.

PK Freeze is the first audio SFX in the video. PK Fire is the second. You can see the distinct difference in length. I don't think the SFX would fit with the new PK Freeze even if they used it. I could be wrong though.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Goodness, one of the problem with vBrawl PKFire is that he shouts it out making the opponent aware of the move.

And god do I want the Beta right now.

 

[Sneak8288]

I actually think that's a brilliant idea. Actually, I think there are already specific moves like that at certain %. I think ZSS's forward tilt when angled down trips 100% of the time at a specific %; correct me if I am wrong here.

It give's the player a reward, and more follow up options. Attack induced tripping was never a bad mechanic; it was just subjected to randomness and made unreliable. That's my feeling anyhow.

Oh, another question (sorry), are you guys capable of reintroducing Samus's SWD? Even assuming it's possible, would you have enough code space?

swd is in already

 

[Sterowent]

phew, for a second there thought you took tripping out entirely. a mechanic that forces a unique techchase is 'melee' to me. spin the brawl incarnation however you want, but the barebones description can't be fouled up. just needs to be 'meleefied', is all. change in sfx, duration changes, maybe even reworking of its potential advantages (and disadvantages). i refuse to accept that this cannot be altered to produce another promising option.


if necessary, could always splice the PK freeze sfx to shave off some of the length. if you'll notice, at the beginning of freeze, the VA slows down some. might not be too bad altered, sped up here and there.

 

[ValTroX]

Oops, my bad. I'm not familiar with the Earthbound games.




Seems like a good idea, however, in practice that audio cue becomes VERY annoying. Think of how often Lucas uses his side+B? Yes, he uses it constantly. That would get real annoying real fast.

I'm fairly certain we tried it with the audio cue and came to that conclusion.

It's better the way it is.

Well i use pk fire a LOT in vbrawl and B+ and well, i guess i just got used to it, i don't think that it'll make a huge difference from fire to freeze .

Also, about the freezing thing, I totally forgot that it elevates you when you freeze, so leave it at no freezing xD

Edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVX-X3YCW8k&feature=related

Yeah, essential.

PK Freeze is the first audio SFX in the video. PK Fire is the second. You can see the distinct difference in length. I don't think the SFX would fit with the new PK Freeze even if they used it. I could be wrong though.

This could be a huge problem, It's not like it looks, sounds bad, but i wanted it to have some kind of sound. Not necessary though ^.^

 

[shanus]

Well i use pk fire a LOT in vbrawl and B+ and well, i guess i just got used to it, i don't think that it'll make a huge difference from fire to freeze .

Also, about the freezing thing, I totally forgot that it elevates you when you freeze, so leave it at no freezing xD

Edit:

This could be a huge problem, It's not like it looks, sounds bad, but i wanted it to have some kind of sound. Not necessary though ^.^

its also annoyingly loud, very LOUD. We wanted to salvage it, but couldn't.

 

[kaizo13]

one thing i do wanna say thou.....about the new Lucas vs Ness footage

the gameplay was very fast all through out the entire match (i know speed is what we're aiming for)
but what i'm trying to say is that.....i doubt they hit every single L-cancel during that match.
There didn't look like there was much room for punishment. Melee without L-canceling is not a very fast game.

I know this kind of a stupid/pointless comment. I just want to feel re-assured that non L-canceled moves will have a decent amount of landing lag. it really makes the matches far more interesting imo and increases the gap between low/high level play.

this a big factor that led me away from B+. Due to auto L-cancel there was no room for punishment plus the low shieldstun got on my nerves ><

(once again, probably a dumb thing to tell devs.....but yeah)

 

[Magus420]

Some of those that weren't lcanceled but had very little lag may just have been autocancels. Also, Brawl+'s shieldstun is higher than Melee btw (it was waaay higher until after 5.0 or so when it was reduced a bit).

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, some are noticeably not Lcanceled. You'll see some of my D-airs are not. But rest assured, we are Melee vets. We did hit all the Lcancels; there's only a few that aren't. Hell, I instinctly L-cancel in Brawl. They're intentional on both sides.

 

[kaizo13]

@ Magus

oh i was probably thinking about vbrawl shieldstun xDD
haven't played B+ for a while now....my mistake

 

[Strong Badam]

most moves have comparable landing lag to Melee's, l-canceled and non-l-canceled. in fact, others and I have started making sure the frame data is exactly the same (unless moves changed like Falco's Fair).

I never miss L-cancels; whenever Fox/DK/Marth footage gets put up y'all are in for some GAMEPLAY

 

[L/A/W]

I know this kind of a stupid/pointless comment. I just want to feel re-assured that non L-canceled moves will have a decent amount of landing lag. it really makes the matches far more interesting imo and increases the gap between low/high level play.

this a big factor that led me away from B+. Due to auto L-cancel there was no room for punishment plus the low shieldstun got on my nerves ><

(once again, probably a dumb thing to tell devs.....but yeah)

l canceling is not difficult whatsoever, in todays fast pace and highly technical melee you are seeing unranked, or unheard of players waveshining without breaking a sweat

i agree with you that l canceling is a necessity but the team is surely going to have the same frame data as melee so it's not a problem

on a totally unrelated note: what ever happened to pc chris playing this?

 

[kaizo13]

@L/A/W

i'm certain most of us here can hit L-cancels no problem. Never said it was a difficult tech.
But being able to do it constantly in a fast paced random environment does require some sort of skill

 

[L/A/W]

a small amount yes, but what's your point

 

[kaizo13]

my point is.....that Project M will rock your socks!

 

[I R MarF]

@L/A/W

i'm certain most of us here can hit L-cancels no problem. Never said it was a difficult tech.
But being able to do it constantly in a fast paced random environment does require some sort of skill

I think after a while it just becomes automatic; the idea is pretty simple, press L right as you hit the ground.

But I'll admit its a bit character specific for me, I sometimes forget to L-Cancel with Marth since I rarely use his dair above the stage (his only aerial that has any high landing lag), but when I play Ganondorf I never forget to L-Cancel.

 

[Plum]

Does Trips from moves still exist in P:M ?

I saw atleast one in the lucas vid so I'm guessing it will stay.

As Orca said, there has been a lot of discussion on tripping in the BR.
Just thought I would chime in on my views.

In my opinion, tripping should be removed from every move except Diddy's bananas.
Diddy's character is so defined by tripping that for me, taking that away would just be killing one of the characters Brawl actually got right. Diddy is one of the more technically demanding Brawl characters because of bananas, and he has always had a combo oriented game based around the momentum his bananas generate.
Every other case of tripping is basically just something a character can hope happens so he can abuse it. Pikachu only spams his jab because he hopes he is going to get a lucky trip out of it. I think that it would be much better for these moves to be reworked to have utility outside of random tripping.
I don't think you can just leave the tripping mechanic as is though. It noticeably disrupts the flow of the match when a character just falls flat on their ***, and the guaranteed followups on it don't feel "Melee." Melee is all about working for your rewards, so tripping needs to reflect that. Simply make tripping techable. It forces Diddy to read his opponent and work for any reward on his trip.
I think that makes Diddy a MUCH more entertaining character for everyone. The Diddy player has to be able to read his opponent, the opponent has to be able to outsmart the Diddy player, and the crowd doesn't have to watch guaranteed combos that the opponent couldn't really do anything about. I think we can all agree that intelligent tech chases/reads are very good to see in a match, and that's what this will do for Diddy's game.

 

[L/A/W]

plum that sounds pretty tight

 

[kaizo13]

ok well i brought this up before, but i got zero replies *sadface

i also don't know how to explain it well so i'm just gonna use cpt. Falcon and falco as an example.
So let's say Falcon side b's falco twice in a row.....what is it that makes falco come out of hitstun almost as soon as the second side b hits him?? (therefore being able to punish Falcon almost immediately)

this isn't in Brawl is it? isn't this very important??
isn't comboing/juggling very easy to do without this?? *cough cough Brawl+??*

(sry if its something obvious but its been buggin me)


EDIT: i'm gonna go ahead and guess. is it something similar to having zero buffer? so that means the hitstun from the 2nd attack won't overide the hitstun from the first attack because the second attack landed while the hitstun of the first attack was taking place?? therefore the hitstun for the second attack never happens?!? ahhh! somebody help me! ><!

 

[Kefrius]

Agree with Plum 100%.

Tripping would be horrible to Melee, It will make the game lost all of it´s momentum and speed which Melee is famous for.

 

[Sterowent]

assuming you can't change tripping. which he outlined as a priority.

i'm fine with seeing a melee 2.0, but if you want to trim away new mechanics, you really ought to state it from the get go. tripping, a middle brother between high-percent ledge rolls and simple onstage techs, is right now a brawl-mode mechanic. so was teching a bit ago. so was hitstun. but those were changed, changed to be like melee.

if you seriously wish to shut out new mechanics, what makes this 2.0 in the first place. excuse my bitterness.

 

[L/A/W]

tripping isn't really fit for a melee environment so calm down
this is MELEE above all else, they are picking and choosing the best attributes from brawl to add and tripping is not one of them. Besides they're considering making tripping a techable action, which keeps tripping in a sense while making it more meleefied

also how is tripping the magical thing that represents the line between melee 2.0 and a melee rebuild. More than 10 new characters are being added, as well as new stages and gameplay mechanics. This is going to be melee 2.0

 

[Sterowent]

calmin down. but you can't be serious about assuming a mechanic that's going to make or break at least one character isn't 'melee'. if it wasn't salvageable, diddy would be built around something else, and no one wants that. you yourself said it was being more 'meleefied', even.

and it isn't the magical one thing. it was simply a good mechanic, one that would further expand a game that's renowned as one of the deepest fighting games. let's take away the word 'tripping' for a second. what would be worse in adding a mechanic that, controlled on specific moves at specific percents (like combos), would force another kind of techchase, with its own set of intricacies? perhaps it'd make things simpler? or would it add to the fast paced mindgame heavy freestyle gameplay that melee presents? i've answered this question myself, thus my attitude.