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Project M Social Thread

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hotdogturtle

Smash Master
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that's good to hear. How is it edgeguarding wario btw? he seems to have a weird angle that makes it tricky to reach him, and his endlag seems short
I'm imagining some hilarious Wario ditto shenanigans where one of them uses his stall-and-fall dair to predict the other one's side-B (since he knows the exact trajectory of it) and collides with it for a meteor.

I'm not sure offhand if the hitboxes would allow that, but it would most likely work.

The trick to edgeguarding Wario is to hit him far enough off the stage that his side-B doesn't make it back. If he doesn't have a fart then he's pretty helpless.
 

Vigilante

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Well, the spacing for Side B meteor requires you to be somewhat close so you can't throw it out at a whim. It also has a lot of endlag so if you mess up, you are very likely to get punished. If done off-stage, it could lead to losing a stock very easily. The grab-box is small too. The KB of the aura blast is too low to be a decent kill move and generally leave room for poeple to recover before Lucario can.

Since it's a grab, it has a good priority, but it's pretty easy to space against it once you get used to it, especially with characters like Wario who have more than decent air mobility. Since using Side B without a combo is extremely dangerous, you'd need to land a hit then follow up with the command grab. The time you have to do so is very minimal and gets harder the more damage the opponent has taken since they fly farther faster. DIing away from Lucario's aerial should make it even harder for Lucario to pull off his side B.

I guess you could say that Lucario's side B can be mad eless reliable if:

1: The foe stays away from his grab-box.
2. The foe gets the habit of DIing away from it.

As for getting Wario's when he,s doing side B, it is really hard to use Side B against it, but it's possible to overprioritize it. The timing is very difficult however.
 

Vigilante

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Try to figure out for how long his dash lasts. Hit him when his animation ends. Also, projectiles can stop him. Side B's priority for Wario is actually pretty low. You can most likely stop it with an attack that outranges it.

Honestly, Shoulder Bash being thrown carelessly is a bad idea.
 

cmart

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YEROC

You left your underwear in my apartment XD

What do you want me to do with it? I'm scared to touch it because it's diiiirrrty, but I'll hold onto it if you want K? ;)
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
While imbalance is abundant throughout and easily noticeable in the Smash series, this is a hack meant to severely tone down that imbalance, giving previously bad characters greater viability in the competitive environment, while still emulating a form greatly resembling that of Melee.
The problem is that in trying to correct this imbalance, you have to constantly check your player-base to make sure that your changes appeal to your audience. The ultimate goal really is to make a game that people want to play, which is apparently overlooked quite often.

For example, Ness sucks. Ness is pretty much doomed to always suck if you leave him to play as he always has: the character has a slow ground speed, a slow air speed, poor range, and a poor recovery. These are fatal flaws that will yield a low tier character if left unchanged. If you try to compensate for them in other areas, you basically force Ness's opponents to exploit those areas even harder. This is a bad way to fix the problem. In any instance where you form extremes, you're actually limiting the interaction with that character. The shallower your gameplay is and the less you can interact with your opponent for better or worse, the more you will drive away your player base. I'll use my previous example of what Squirtle was, where he's too fast/small to reasonably aim attacks at, and he was unable to be "caught" per se. This is extremely limiting to Squirtle's opponent, and the game degenerates into some shallow lack of interaction where basically you throw a move out and hope Squirtle runs into it.

You quickly see a pattern where the more you can interact with the opponent, the more depth you can derive from play and those more appeal the game has. This is immediately evident in the better developed characters. The proper way to fix Ness is to remove his weaknesses to a point, such as increasing his running speed, increasing his air speed, giving him better range or a better recovery. You run the risk of making him too "vanilla" but it requires some finesse and refinement to avoid it.

So cmart expressed the idea that Ness's PK Fire was too good over the weekend. I said that might be true, but as long as that move comes at the cost of playing Ness, it is not a problem until the character is focused solely around that move. So long as you avoid instances of a character with extreme situations and increase the amount of interaction available, your game will probably be better for it.

The changes I've proposed so far were all corrections on these extremes as I've seen them:

-Wario's side B. Since this move was reduced from a 17% panacea, I have not even seen this character played, which only further reinforces (to me anyway) how stupid that 1 move really was.
-ROB's relative combo immunity. I don't think the change to this character was a major one, but punishing his mistakes is a much more reasonable process now.
-Squirtle's relative immunity to the cast. Squirtle is still a potent, fast threat as far as I can tell, but is much more reasonable to interact with in that you can...at all.

The most extreme character I saw over this past weekend is ZSS, but I don't think she's as bad as the above 3 were. ZSS right now is incredibly fast, well ranged, and her combos are just too easy/lethal. Her recovery is somewhat hard to interact with but I think that can stay. On the opposite side, she has very low weight, no shield game, and her throws are downright weird.

Finally, don't justify "balance" in terms of other attributes. A false association is just asking to be exploited in some stupid manner. Don't make a ZSS light because she is fast. Don't give a character a move that KOs at 60% because that's their only kill move. Don't leave in mechanic abuses on a projectile because the projectile isn't that good. These things lead to those extreme cases and are generally unreasonable to deal with. Understand why things like Falco's melee shine and lasers are a bad thing for a smash game. Yes we've come to understand them but a frame 1 invincible combo starter and indefinitely perfect stage control are also extremes that you should not strive to replicate, as the character eventually becomes focused around those extremes...like melee Falco so obviously is.

If you need one last example of a character that you can't interact with, look at Brawl Metaknight. The inability to deal with Tornado, stage abuse, camping, etc. got that character banned. You simply can't interact with him favorably in most situations.

edit: Actually Ike is more extreme than ZSS in that he's absolute trash. To be fair, the opponent can interact with Ike, Ike just can't do anything about it.
 

Vigilante

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YEROC

You left your underwear in my apartment XD

What do you want me to do with it? I'm scared to touch it because it's diiiirrrty, but I'll hold onto it if you want K? ;)
Add it to your collection of PMBR panties. I know you have one.
 

Shell

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I'm imagining some hilarious Wario ditto shenanigans where one of them uses his stall-and-fall dair to predict the other one's side-B (since he knows the exact trajectory of it) and collides with it for a meteor.

I'm not sure offhand if the hitboxes would allow that, but it would most likely work.

The trick to edgeguarding Wario is to hit him far enough off the stage that his side-B doesn't make it back. If he doesn't have a fart then he's pretty helpless.
Fyi Fart now goes into special fall, so it's mostly a more situational vertical recovery now that he can't use it in conjunction with Side-B / Up-B.
 

leelue

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I'm pretty sure she can't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mcp_lfVMV4

This was legitimately the only video I could find. 5 and a half seconds in, it appears as though she pulls a turnip, throws it, and pulls another in about 1.5 seconds.
The quality is horrible but using the amazing technique of "pause+play spam" I'm fairly certain that I am correct.
 

ph00tbag

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Alright, for the sake of making this look good, SHeLL, I'm just going to bring out the two points that seemed most salient to me from your post:

Lucas's excellent edgeguard options were "too good," and so they were nerfed.

Lucas had no guaranteed set-ups for KOs.

What you didn't bring up, is that Lucas had solid ways to force his opponents offstage, where his edgeguarding game was "too good," the equivalent of scoring a move that can KO. This, I think, is the major sticking point, and the pivot point upon which we disagree. But you've got to see how having the best edgeguarding in the game, plus a handful of options for getting one's opponents offstage is functionally equivalent to being able to set-up usmashes at KO percents. For some reason, despite the equivalency in terms of balance, this is still seen as a bad thing. Considering plenty of characters in Melee won this way as opposed to outright KOs, I can't fathom why there would be such opposition.

You also brought up that nice endorphin rush you get when landing usmash. As to that, I really have two reasons I'm opposed to making that easier. First off, I find that landing usmash is a great deal more satisfying when I've landed it off of a sick read, than when I get it guaranteed off of a grounded meteor. Second, I would say that usmash is not meant to be a central part of Lucas's moveset. It's flashy and over the top, and absurdly unsafe. It's a Falcon Punch, or a fully charged Flare Blade, or a Ganondorf Utilt. It's not a Knee, or a Giant Monkey Punch, or a Charge Shot. Obviously, the interpretation of this move is subjective, so if you still disagree, then there's only so much I can do to convince you otherwise.

I will say that the interpretation of usmash as a central move, and the changes necessary to solidify that interpretation, strike me as inelegant. Maybe just making nair bigger won't be enough, maybe you've have to make the hitbox refresh on hit in order for it to be really effective. At most, that's two functional changes. (Ultimately, I see them as changes that are still necessary even in addition to the changes already made.) I compare this to the chain reaction of tweaks that have been made in order to bring the focus on usmash, and I see a much more elegantly modified character.

------------------------

On an unrelated note, I do agree that Brawl utilt is really ugly, and doesn't make sense. My only issue with the flash kick utilt is that it just seems really out of character for Lucas. Lucas is not Guile. Guile has balls, Lucas is still waiting for his to drop. It's ultimately an aesthetic gripe, but I still hate the new utilt nonetheless.

YEROC

You left your underwear in my apartment XD

What do you want me to do with it? I'm scared to touch it because it's diiiirrrty, but I'll hold onto it if you want K? ;)
The fact this is not in a text or PM tells me you are very proud of this, probably because you think it'll embarrass Yeroc.

But you forget that Yeroc is an engineer, and underwear is of marginal consequence. I can one up you in this department, because I have his power strip.
 

cmart

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If I thought Yeroc would be embarrassed by my post, I wouldn't have made it.

Still you HAVE one-upped me, and for that I must express my admiration, especially as I have discovered the underwear in question is not Yeroc's.

It is a mystery!!
 

leelue

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What you didn't bring up, is that Lucas had solid ways to force his opponents offstage, where his edgeguarding game was "too good," the equivalent of scoring a move that can KO...
...For some reason, despite the equivalency in terms of balance, this is still seen as a bad thing.
The early text makes perfect sense. It is analogous to a simplified version of a problem my friend had with snake.
He was mad that if i stuck him with a C4, then at some point in time my up throw will inevitably kill him. I then pointed out that it is functionally the equivalent of snake having, say, mewtwo's up throw.
(This is also why I was mad when I saw that Snake was able to kill with a naked up throw as of about a week ago; I appreciated that he had to work for it since the goal of getting a C4 stick is perfectly achievable)
Yes, this problem get muddled when you realize that a dash attack or up tilt is then also a setup for a C4 kill, but that is irrelevant to the example I'm giving since I'm merely drawing a correlary between one situation being "bad, even though it is the same in practice at a simplistic level".
I use the term simplistic very purposely here.

I am not saying that Lucas' former ability to attempt to pk-thunder a character to oblivion after a setup is a good OR bad thing. I am saying that it is logically synonymous to Lucas' apparently current ability to up smash an opponent into oblivion after a setup at a basic level.
If this tactic was seriously a critical problem and not a visceral one which it appears to be, then an individual could easily, and most likely correctly, assume that the problem could be fixed the by lowering the BKB of ptk1 gradually until it reached an "acceptable" level, rather than alter entire moves and philosophies.
Obviously the apparent flaws of Lucas 1.0 aren't based upona single move, and any change to a character may push him out of equilibrium.
Of course.
I am not a Lucas main, nor do I play any. I can only give input on things from a logical perspective, in a vacuum, with what facts are presented to me.
Which is what I have done.


(I may have forgotten/overlooked previous posts. I'm just posting in a vacuum. Like a loser.)
 

Yeroc

Theory Coder
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And, actually, Susan still has my phone charger. So I'd say it's closer to a tie right now. Ph00t, if you could be so kind as to take that power strip to work with you on Wednesday I will gladly collect it from you, btw.
 

PMsurveys

Smash Rookie
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Alright, for the sake of making this look good, SHeLL, I'm just going to bring out the two points that seemed most salient to me from your post:

Lucas's excellent edgeguard options were "too good," and so they were nerfed.

Lucas had no guaranteed set-ups for KOs.

What you didn't bring up, is that Lucas had solid ways to force his opponents offstage, where his edgeguarding game was "too good," the equivalent of scoring a move that can KO. This, I think, is the major sticking point, and the pivot point upon which we disagree. But you've got to see how having the best edgeguarding in the game, plus a handful of options for getting one's opponents offstage is functionally equivalent to being able to set-up usmashes at KO percents. For some reason, despite the equivalency in terms of balance, this is still seen as a bad thing. Considering plenty of characters in Melee won this way as opposed to outright KOs, I can't fathom why there would be such opposition.

You also brought up that nice endorphin rush you get when landing usmash. As to that, I really have two reasons I'm opposed to making that easier. First off, I find that landing usmash is a great deal more satisfying when I've landed it off of a sick read, than when I get it guaranteed off of a grounded meteor. Second, I would say that usmash is not meant to be a central part of Lucas's moveset. It's flashy and over the top, and absurdly unsafe. It's a Falcon Punch, or a fully charged Flare Blade, or a Ganondorf Utilt. It's not a Knee, or a Giant Monkey Punch, or a Charge Shot. Obviously, the interpretation of this move is subjective, so if you still disagree, then there's only so much I can do to convince you otherwise.

I will say that the interpretation of usmash as a central move, and the changes necessary to solidify that interpretation, strike me as inelegant. Maybe just making nair bigger won't be enough, maybe you've have to make the hitbox refresh on hit in order for it to be really effective. At most, that's two functional changes. (Ultimately, I see them as changes that are still necessary even in addition to the changes already made.) I compare this to the chain reaction of tweaks that have been made in order to bring the focus on usmash, and I see a much more elegantly modified character.
.
You seem to have some attachment to the old PKT1. It was really gross and I'm really glad it's gone. It was pretty much the best edge guarding in the game with no skill or risk involved at all. Just send it out there, spin it around in a circle to prevent them from hitting the ball, and let it's gross BKB/trajectory do the work. I don't think anyone in the pmbr was in support of that sort of an edge guarding tool.
I agree Usmash is risky, hence why I don't throw it out with reads very often.... That's why we made Lucas have a better ability to combo in to it. Just a note, it's a smaller hit box Usmash now, so it wont hit the top platform on some stages anymore. It lasts shorter too, but comes out a tad quiucker. It sort of is his knee, just less deadly.
His old approaches were far too DI dependent and would often lead to nothing, they have follow ups for more DI ranges now. You'll probably like Lucas if you like fast, technical, combo chars. Comboing in to fsmash or Usmash is tough and satisfying.
 

Shell

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Yeah it's not only that PKT1 was a really good edgeguard, it was how little skill and risk accompanied a large reward for an offstage hit.
 

leelue

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I can concede this to be true.
Was lowering the BKB tried?

The other three options (that I can imagine) would be to lower the speed of the projectile (done), lower the maneuverability of the projectile, or to increase the duration of the projectile so it cannot be followed through (probably ineffective on its own, but potentially a good suppliment).
 

Shell

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We lowered it a couple times over development and eventually decided to just remove it from the edgeguarding equation by making it hit upwards.

The combination of PKT1 hitting upwards and magnet knocking people behind him means he has two interesting ways to save a doubles team mate, btw.

EDIT: PMsurveys is Specks from SmashMods. I'm not sure why she didn't use her own name. /shrug/
 

ph00tbag

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But it took more skill and risk to get the opponent offstage, and into the part of offstage where PKT1 is dominant, in the first place.

This is literally what I'm talking about. Because you took issue with one aspect of the character, despite its counterbalances, you nerfed it, and buffed the counterbalances. Then when that turned out to be a bit too powerful, you even nerfed that. IMO, it just made the character a whole lot more boring, for a very significant expenditure of effort.

And yes, I am attached to the old PKT1. It was interesting, and I felt incredibly rewarded for manipulating my opponent into a situation where I could use it, because it wasn't easy.
 

leelue

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My issue has to end here gents. I agree with phootbag's last statement, however I cannot really judge without having gone through the steps that shell says they already did. I believe that there should be know reason to suspect that a Goldilocks zone couldn't exist for the move, at all. But without sufficient data to check I can't logically pursue the "problem" further than that speculation.
I'm going to try and remember this conclusion whenever I post.
Thanks for clearing that up Shell, and thanks for all your vocalizations phootbag.
 

Shell

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But it took more skill and risk to get the opponent offstage, and into the part of offstage where PKT1 is dominant, in the first place.

This is literally what I'm talking about. Because you took issue with one aspect of the character, despite its counterbalances, you nerfed it, and buffed the counterbalances. Then when that turned out to be a bit too powerful, you even nerfed that. IMO, it just made the character a whole lot more boring, for a very significant expenditure of effort.

And yes, I am attached to the old PKT1. It was interesting, and I felt incredibly rewarded for manipulating my opponent into a situation where I could use it, because it wasn't easy.
I guess it all comes down to a subjective call.

Demo 1 design goal: throw out tons of PK Freeze and F-tilt until your opponent leaves you a big enough opening to get in and hit them off the stage, then **** them with PKT1, possibly magnet semi-spike or bair if you're feeling flashy.

Current PMBR design goal: approach w/ Fair / DA or mixup with PK Freeze / Magnet. DI/Char/%-based combos into a mix of direct setups into Smash KOs and tech chasing. Supplement with F-tilt Lw edgeguarding and offstage Dairs / Nairs.

While I still think it would've taken significantly more than a nair hitbox buff to make your goal viable, yes I acknowledge that the end result would still be KOs.

We've just generally found that the second design goal promoted a broader range of strategies, produced results that were less polarizing against characters with poor recoveries, and was found by more people to be "fun" to play as and against.
 

Kink-Link5

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Yo Shell, what did you think of my Ness idea? I only said it like 40 times and only Marf and Phootbag really offered any feedback on it. Marf's consisted of non helpful "That sounds cool," and Phoot's consisted of non helpful "That would be stupid and out of line with the way I think Ness is supposed to play." I'd like to get some actual responce on it :V
 

Shell

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Sorry, I'm not as active on SWF as I probably should be -- could you link me to it?
 

Kink-Link5

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[collapse=Post with the idea rewritten on Smashmods.]
Down B: Allow Ness to turn around and Jump Cancel this move starting on Frame 1. This would compliment is DJC's and allow him to do a turn around fair or bair instantly, building on his strengths as a character by adding the slight stall the move has on activation, but keeping his momentum unlike similar moves such as Shine.

In addition, but not as highly wanted as the other idea, have the move deal around 5% damage, but no hitstun, none at all, on start up. The damage would still obviously have shield stun and would help his on stage game, in addition to being able to tack on damage mid-combo without disrupting hitstun.

For example, if an opponent is trapped by PK Fire, PSI Mag could be used, then JC'd, then a JC grab to tack on 5% and follow up with a throw for the damage it deals. It would greatly aid in his damage racking and in general, make him a more well rounded character capable of doing things on par with Melee's top/high tiers and Project M's Mario.

Not Zelda or ZZS though, they're pretty dumb and have far too low of a learning curve for their damage output and effective strategies.[/collapse]

The original post said:
So for Ness's down B, how about letting him turn around and JC it instantly? It would be quite useful in tandem with his DJC to create interesting pressure and movement options. I was also thinking it could have a hitbox on start up that deals a little damage (Maybe like 5-7%?), but no knockback. "What would be the point, then?" you might ask, or maybe you don't, I don't know what you ask and don't ask. Well the answer to that question I can not confirm was asked, is that it would still do shield damage and shield stun, in addition to being canceled by his jumps. I feel it would greatly improve his overall performance as an aerial assaulting character.
After doing shield stun calculations, I figured 4.5% would be just enough to aid in shield pressure without making it stupid easy by giving very close to 4 exact frames of shieldstun.
 

ph00tbag

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We've just generally found that the second design goal promoted a broader range of strategies, produced results that were less polarizing against characters with poor recoveries, and was found by more people to be "fun" to play as and against.
But then, how much time was spent messing around with how nair interacts with a blocking opponent? I don't imagine it was deeply explored, because even with the little time I spent noodling around with the move, it didn't happen often, because Lucas's means of getting close enough to use the move were lacking.

I admit, Lucas with a good nair would have really overwhelming shield pressure options. If you don't enjoy playing against Falco, you probably wouldn't care for Lucas's options on block either. So the question of is he fun to play against would still be up for debate.
 

Shell

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@Kink-Link5: What do you mean by JC on frame 1? Do you mean of the continuous absorption subaction? The ending magnet-drop subaction?
 

9Kplus1

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I'm pretty sure that Kink is referring to continuous absorption subtraction. Again, as I've expressed multiple times already, I don't think that either Mother boy needs a move with the same use as a shine. Ness already has his 1F Dair and PK Fiery Homosexuality -- and Ness can already JC PSI Magnet the very first frame after he absorbs something. I, personally, really loved Lucas's vBrawl PSI Magnet physics, and would love to see Magnet Pull, as well as its applications, return in a later build of Lucas. Lucas's current PSI Magnet seems... janky, dumb, and pointless. Lucas isn't a spacie and his intended playstyle greatly reflects that. Is there really any reason to give him a move similar to the tool that should be "exclusive" to a particular type of character? Honestly, after playing against Lucas many times -- only seeing a fraction of his potential, mind you -- I do not see much of a point in giving him a very good pressure game, along with what he already has now. Ness falls into a similar vein, except that even with a command DJC, buffed aerials and specials, he still has large, exploitable problems that can't be fixed by giving him a "shine". Addressing the problems that either character has with the rest of the cast should be much more of a priority than strengthening them in negligible areas. By this, I mean that Lucas nor Ness should be given a solid pressure game if they still face the same problems that they would without it. Ness should be fine without a PSI Magnet buff, once he manages to get in (which is possible thanks to PK Fire being so good (and DDD being so fat >_>)); Lucas has more than enough speed and tech chasing options to operate without the "come give me a hug" PSI Magnet properties.

btw, Marf, I'll reply to your post once I get to a computer.

:phone:
 

ph00tbag

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Shine can be jump canceled on frame four, if memory serves. I also believe it doesn't start reflecting until frame 2, either.
 

Ecks

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Well IIRC, Ness' magnet doesn't come out until a bit after Ness goes into magnet stance. A few frames or so, I have no idea. If you could cancel the whole move on frame one you wouldn't deal any damage since the magnet isn't out yet.

And this reminds me of Ness' (and spacies') ability to absorb (think super armor) hits during down b startup frames on vBrawl. This was obviously removed with melee shine's return, but what about Ness and Wolf? Do they still have that?

Edit: I have to say I really like having momentum-keeping JC-Magnet for DJC purposes. As for turn around, I'm not sure if he can already do this via B-reversal. If not, then yeah, give him one of the two. The extra 5% and shield stun sound really nice, but you'd have to keep in mind that Magnets don't come out in frame one, so you can't go all waveshine on shields.
 

Ecks

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Well I don't remember vBrawl, but in Brawl plus he takes damage. It's like when you take damage when grabbing, but the grab takes priority. I'm not sure how this is called, so I said it's like super armor.
 
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