Project M Social Thread

[UltiMario]

That's Grab Armor. There's different Super Armor too, like on Olimar's Down B.

Wolf's Shine had invincibility in vBrawl.

Ness also has no Down B armor in vBrawl either.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I bet a lot of you would use this Lucario costume in Project M once it's finished...

 

[MaxThunder]

wooooooaaah that is awezome... i need that in different colors!!!

 

[genkaku]

I ****ing love shield pressure. It's a brilliant innovation that adds worlds of depth to an already complicated game. Love it love it love it.
Unfortunately neither mother boy has much of a moveset to compliment a pressure system at present. I personally would love to see them both with substantial options on shields, but without reworking their arials this seems impractical, not to mention begging for something OP in combination with their current mechanisms (pk fire in particular).

 

[9Kplus1]

Lucas has a "Zelda" Bair and Ness has a toned down version of his N64 swag on shields. Do they really need anything else in that particular area ?_?

 

[leelue]

Doesn't lucas' Bair have notable startup time?

 

[9Kplus1]

It can be comboed into and obliterates shields. The start-up is negligible once you consider Lucas's applications of it.

 

[leelue]

I'd have to take your word for it, as I haven't seen these applications myself. I just remember it being prohibitively slow when we tried him out.

 

[TeiunBomb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKUjr97gqtI

I dunno if this still applies, but if Lucas hasn't changed much beyond this... then yeah, bair's shield damage is absolutely absurd.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I still like Lucas' original Bair and how it worked in demo 1, specifically on grounded opponents, but I highly doubt they will change it back at this point.

Grounded Bair -> Charged Usmash was <3 ~<==8

 

[leelue]

That was... rather bonkers. (the video)

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'd actually really like to see how a team of 2 lucarios would work out. Perhaps some silly team combos could happen?

You can gain meter by beating up on your teammate's shield.

 

[leelue]

That's rather funny

 

[phurgawtin]

You can gain meter by beating up on your teammate's shield.

can you gain meter by beating up on shyguys or popping the smashville balloon?

i know lucas retains his offense up after hitting a shyguy.

 

[drsusredfish]

yes you do gain meter hitting shy guys and balloons. i think the walls on snakes level charge his metter too.

 

[drsusredfish]

lucas/ness on teams with lucario will be so good. Lucario beat up on lucas/ness for meter then heal them with aura ball. dat healing aura son.

 

[Mono.]

You know how Ike could be improved?

There was a hilariously old build where Ike was just getting started on- Shffl Fair and Nair beat practically everything.

Just go back to them beating everything again =p

What I think could be very helpful for Ike without a doubt is something reliable I can do out of shield, whether that be a sex kick or a bair with a bigger Hitbox than what he has now. Just something.

Ike had a beastly dair way back when I first played him. I'm not sure of the properties but it wrecked ****. It would be great to have that back.

Another thing that would be great is the ability to jump out of an aerial quick draw and aerial qd attack but not necessarily be able to B out of it to balance this. This will open up a lot more options for approach and combos.

 

[AeonClock]

Instead of absorbing energy attacks , Lucas's magnet should absorb shield durability

 

[Archangel]

Instead of absorbing energy attacks , Lucas's magnet should absorb shield durability

Mind Elaborating on this?

 

[AeonClock]

Lol, I was mostly joking. But if I was going to make a system like this, I would make it so that Lucas's down-b drastically drains shield life as long as it is touching an enemy's shield (at the costs of his percent rising when in contact with a shield). Also, instead of covering the area in front of him like his current down-b does, the new down-b would envelop Lucas completely and reach only about as far as his f-smash. When the magnet is released, Lucas would emit a small psi blast that covers his body and knocks opponents at an upward trajectory. The Psi blast would has a small start up animation, but it would be jump cancellable before the hitbox comes out.

With his bair and d-smash, he would get shield breaks for days

 

[metroid1117]

What I think could be very helpful for Ike without a doubt is something reliable I can do out of shield, whether that be a sex kick or a bair with a bigger Hitbox than what he has now. Just something.

Ike had a beastly dair way back when I first played him. I'm not sure of the properties but it wrecked ****. It would be great to have that back.

Another thing that would be great is the ability to jump out of an aerial quick draw and aerial qd attack but not necessarily be able to B out of it to balance this. This will open up a lot more options for approach and combos.

I haven't played him in PM, but it looks like the problem with his BAir is that it hits too low so it can't hit grounded opponents OOS. Considering that it's disjointed, fast, and powerful it is, I think it'd be more proper to have it hit lower than to make the hitbox bigger.

Jumping out of aerial QD and aerial QD attack sounds awesome. I'm assuming you meant being limited to doing it once before touching the ground though, otherwise that would be like Brawl-.

By the way, how easy/hard is it to DI out of the spinning hitboxes on Aether? A very slight buff would be to make it harder to DI out of and to make the landing hit on Aether more knockback so it can be used without being easily punished at mid percents; this way, Ike may have a way to end upward hits (Aether'ing them back to the ground) and set them up for possible follow-ups by putting them above (and away, with DI) him. It doesn't directly fix the problems that Umbreon pointed out, but it would, at the very least, expand his options on upward hits like UTilt or falling UAir.

 

[drsusredfish]

how bout making Ike's counter (down b) have a hit box on start up, like he hits you with the butt of his sword or somthing and it has a set KB. this would also be Ikes fastest but shortest rangened move. This gives him a small OoS GTFO option and still lets him use the counter if he gets hit during the move. That would be all the OoS he needs.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Ike doesn't need any buffs, he already seems like a beast , same with Ness.

Lucas, it's too early to tell.

 

[Mono.]

I haven't played him in PM, but it looks like the problem with his BAir is that it hits too low so it can't hit grounded opponents OOS. Considering that it's disjointed, fast, and powerful it is, I think it'd be more proper to have it hit lower than to make the hitbox bigger.

This is precisely what I mean. On both aspects, in fact. A bigger hitbox whereas it hits near his feet as well. Everytime I try this OoS, I pretty much swing over the opponent's head majority of the time, especially if they see this coming.

Jumping out of aerial QD and aerial QD attack sounds awesome. I'm assuming you meant being limited to doing it once before touching the ground though, otherwise that would be like Brawl-.

Yeah that's what I'm saying.

By the way, how easy/hard is it to DI out of the spinning hitboxes on Aether? A very slight buff would be to make it harder to DI out of and to make the landing hit on Aether more knockback so it can be used without being easily punished at mid percents; this way, Ike may have a way to end upward hits (Aether'ing them back to the ground) and set them up for possible follow-ups by putting them above (and away, with DI) him. It doesn't directly fix the problems that Umbreon pointed out, but it would, at the very least, expand his options on upward hits like UTilt or falling UAir

I have yet to see anyone DI out of it so I wouldn't know and the last hit knockback is fine enough since I never get punished on a successful hit with aether when trying to come back on the ledge. What's wrong with aether is it getting wrecked by disjointed hitboxes. This is a problem, yes. But I don't feel it's something that needs to be changed. I get gimped sometimes, but not so much that it's a serious issue since I know ways around recovering with Ike.

Ike doesn't need any buffs, he already seems like a beast

 

[drsusredfish]

how bout making Ike's counter (down b) have a hit box on start up, like he hits you with the butt of his sword or somthing and it has a set KB. this would also be Ikes fastest but shortest rangened move. This gives him a small OoS GTFO option and still lets him use the counter if he gets hit during the move. That would be all the OoS he needs.

heres the animated version of my idea

frame 3-5 are the attack frames. frame 6-13 are the counter frames. of course the animation could be cleaned up a bit (made this kinda hastily) but thats the general idea.

 

[I R MarF]

Lol @ all these Ike complaints.

By default, he seems a lot like Melee Ganon, and in that respect, he could play a lot like him.

We all know that Ganon is primarily raw KB and damage; he sees those benefits through both combos or simply trading hits. We also already know what composes Ganon is viable and works, so we can modify it and apply it to Ike.

What we know about Ike is he has the natural benefit of disjointed range. Thus, if a Ganon playstyle were to be applied to Ike, he should have a lower KB and damage than Ganon since we'd want Ike players to get the most benefit from their raw strength by spacing instead of trading.

His QD gives him a lot of quick movement options since he can WD, usmash, fair, bair, and grab out of it, so I guess that gives him a lot of unique approach and movement options. As long as he abuses his enormous range, power, and this decent movement tech, he can hopefully avoid situations that put him in shield; and in that scenario, he should have poor OoS options which will suffice as a weakness. Ganon, C. Falcon, and Yoshi all already have to deal with the problem and they don't even have a sword, so Ike will live if he has it too. Don't complain about it.

His recovery is persistent and effective in close proximity (also making his close offstage pretty decent). However, if the opponent has adequate time to prepare, than can combat a seemingly safe recovery.

If it were up to me, the secret to beating his recovery should be behind it when Ike is separated from his sword. I'm not sure if there is, but there should be no armor on Ike between the time he releases his sword until about 12 frames after he has regrabbed it. Also, the first time Ike spins once he grabs his sword should have no hitboxes behind and his shouldn't have any hitboxes directly above him and diagonally up and behind him. But Like I said, this should only be on the first spin.

What the above information should do is leave Ike's recovery intact, but make it inturruptable, and through careful timing, a player could jump in behind Ike and hit him out of this first spin, trade hits by the second spin, or just hit him before he even reaches the sword.

Hopefully that will be a sufficient enough nerf to make his recovery beatable as long as the opponent had time to prepare; but that should be the case for every recovery.

 

[Mono.]

frame 3-5 are the attack frames.

That wouldn't be his fastest move then. Jab is frame 2.

And I like the counter the way it is.

Lol @ all these Ike complaints.

By default, he seems a lot like Melee Ganon, and in that respect, he could play a lot like him.

We all know that Ganon is primarily raw KB and damage; he sees those benefits through both combos or simply trading hits. We also already know what composes Ganon is viable and works, so we can modify it and apply it to Ike.

What we know about Ike is he has the natural benefit of disjointed range. Thus, if a Ganon playstyle were to be applied to Ike, he should have a lower KB and damage than Ganon since we'd want Ike players to get the most benefit from their raw strength by spacing instead of trading.

His QD gives him a lot of quick movement options since he can WD, usmash, fair, bair, and grab out of it, so I guess that gives him a lot of unique approach and movement options. As long as he abuses his enormous range, power, and this decent movement tech, he can hopefully avoid situations that put him in shield; and in that scenario, he should have poor OoS options which will suffice as a weakness. Ganon, C. Falcon, and Yoshi all already have to deal with the problem and they don't even have a sword, so Ike will live if he has it too. Don't complain about it.

His recovery is persistent and effective in close proximity (also making his close offstage pretty decent). However, if the opponent has adequate time to prepare, than can combat a seemingly safe recovery.

If it were up to me, the secret to beating his recovery should be behind it when Ike is separated from his sword. I'm not sure if there is, but there should be no armor on Ike between the time he releases his sword until about 12 frames after he has regrabbed it. Also, the first time Ike spins once he grabs his sword should have no hitboxes behind and his shouldn't have any hitboxes directly above him and diagonally up and behind him. But Like I said, this should only be on the first spin.

What the above information should do is leave Ike's recovery intact, but make it inturruptable, and through careful timing, a player could jump in behind Ike and hit him out of this first spin, trade hits by the second spin, or just hit him before he even reaches the sword.

Hopefully that will be a sufficient enough nerf to make his recovery beatable as long as the opponent had time to prepare; but that should be the case for every recovery.

You never played with Ike before, have you?

 

[drsusredfish]

well his fastest move out of sheild then. for the record i dont play ike im just throwing out ideas.

 

[Mono.]

well his fastest move out of sheild then. for the record i dont play oke im just throwing out ideas.

This doesn't solve Ike's OoS problem that much though. If someone's pressuring my shield somewhere other than directly in front of me ( Which even when directly in front of me I feel crippled), there's hardly anything I can do about it. This is why I'm forced to powershield ---> jab any sort of pressure attempts that my fair/nair is too slow to stop.

 

[drsusredfish]

frame 3-5 in that animation covers from his body to his out streched arm that should be enough range to catch most fighters that actually have sheild pressure. but at the same time its not a cure all just an option. if you miss the attack you still have the chance to counter and that works front and back.

 

[Mono.]

But then it'd be like a move that had an obnoxious amount of cooldown because right after it comes counter and then a grabbed Ike which is bad.

 

[9Kplus1]

Eh, I hate misspacing Bairs whenever I want to get a spacie offstage. I'm in agreement with Kiri on giving it a bigger hitbox (dun care about Ike's options oos, because I just Aether onto a platform. Works pretty well against slower Foxes ).

edit: I would also love to have the ability to jump out of an aerial QD -- opens up so much room for creativity with this character.

 

[drsusredfish]

But then it'd be like a move that had an obnoxious amount of cooldown because right after it comes counter and then a grabbed Ike which is bad.

you can't cover every single option or else it would be too good. its not a shine but it would still have its utility an OoS. The set KB wouldn't be a week hit it would allow you time to recover from your cool down. isn't there like 8 frames (with stun) between a perfect shine sheild pressue game in which you can do somthing? thats enough time, as small as it is, to get ike's OoS down b. (he's air born in like frame 5 of his jump so i think it may work) plus its a trancendent hit box so it will trade a shine i believe.
edit: nope shine makes them invincable. But this is assuming TaS frame perfect playing.

 

[Mono.]

SH QD mixups
SH QD spaced aerials
SH QD attack spacing
SH QD attack into JC'd uair/fair/fair chain combo
QD to SH QD to everything above you're too slow

based ike

you can't cover every single option or else it would be too good. its not a shine but it would still have its utility an OoS. The set KB wouldn't be a week hit it would allow you time to recover from your cool down. isn't there like 8 frames (with stun) between a perfect shine sheild pressue game in which you can do somthing? thats enough time, as small as it is, to get ike's OoS down b. (he's air born in like frame 5 of his jump so i think it may work) plus its a trancendent hit box so it will trade a shine i believe.
edit: nope shine makes them invincable. But this is assuming TaS frame perfect playing.

I would just much rather have my regular counter since I make great use of it and a good aerial OoS option.

 

[I R MarF]

you can't cover every single option or else it would be too good. its not a shine but it would still have its utility an OoS. The set KB wouldn't be a week hit it would allow you time to recover from your cool down. isn't there like 8 frames (with stun) between a perfect shine sheild pressue game in which you can do somthing? thats enough time, as small as it is, to get ike's OoS down b. (he's air born in like frame 5 of his jump so i think it may work) plus its a trancendent hit box so it will trade a shine i believe.
edit: nope shine makes them invincable. But this is assuming TaS frame perfect playing.

That'd make it frame 8 so grab is still 1 frame better and much easier to do than a frame perfect Down-b OoS...

...and there is no way someone with Ike's range is getting an aerial earlier than frame 4, meaning he couldn't have have an aerial OoS thats before frame 9 and any OoS option that isn't frame 7 or earlier would be useless in a shield pressure situation

Guys, its okay if someone doesn't have an OoS option better than grab. Having huge disjointed hitboxes already gives him defensive options outside of shield that many characters don't enjoy.

 

[Mono.]

...and there is no way someone with Ike's range is getting an aerial earlier than frame 4

QD attack is more than likely faster than Frame 4 for sure.

 

[leelue]

edit: I would also love to have the ability to jump out of an aerial QD -- opens up so much room for creativity with this character.

I'm here to, once again, interject my opinion that making ground based specials significantly worse than their aerial version (outside of being grandfathered in such as falco's laser) is maddening to me.
I am eternally grateful that my favorite character in the game, Ganondorf, has multiple reasons to use his grounded forward B instead of having just having the aerial version do the same thing but is "land cancellable" or some other depth-narrowing buff.
We play a game where most characters have 17 moves, and more often than not one or more than one of them are fundamentally useless. By injecting either pro/con differences into their aerial versions and grounded versions of moves (ganon's side b) or by making the moves just function differently (ganon's down B) makes the game better and more complex.
Where it makes sense, of course.
Of course.
Of course.

As I often am, I am not straight-up disagreeing with the idea. I'm just trying to act as a regulatory force.
However unnecessary as that may be.

 

[Mono.]

But Ike not being able to use B moves with jumping out of an aerial quickdraw is more than enough to be a con for what I'd like to see. Saying Grounded QD with this present will be insignificant in comparison is also just wrong. How am I going to QD grab them in the air? How am I going to QD wavedash in the air?

 

[I R MarF]

QD attack is more than likely faster than Frame 4 for sure.

Maybe it hits on frame 3 after charge release but it still has to go through those frames.

@Kirisame, if Ike could jump out of his aerial QD, it would make his recovery pretty stupid good. You wouldn't approve of Fox, Falco, or Pikachu being able to jump from their side-bs would you?

 

[Mono.]

What? No it wouldn't. And are you really comparing spacie and pikachu side B to quick draw? Do you know how telegraphed QD is off stage? Ike's jumps are horrible to begin with and that little blind spot that Ike has when recovering will still be present. Plus I know I'd get intercepted just as easily if not easier with a jump. In fact, it'd be much more safe to just try to QD attack the opponent to get an aether out of them or trying to wall jump. So without a B out of a jc'd aerial quickdraw, it would hardly make much of a difference. It'd give him an option, yes. But a very mediocre one that'll contribute only if the player doesn't understand Ike.