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Project M Social Thread

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i still think ike is total garbage.

i played kiri's ike and after half an hour he said the same thing.

idk the character can do things but none of them are really threatening except going out long for fair edge guards. those were pretty cool admittedly.

idk what you guys did to metaknight but it's ****ing terrible. he was better when he was completely unchanged except for the tornado/up B nerfs that I played on thunderhorse's wii like 3 months ago.
 

Strong Badam

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yeah guys look a zelda player got 1st doesn't that mean zelda's really good and not the player?

#brawlplayers
 

Strong Badam

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idk what you guys did to metaknight but it's ****ing terrible. he was better when he was completely unchanged except for the tornado/up B nerfs that I played on thunderhorse's wii like 3 months ago.
i agree completely LOL it's ****ing ********
 

UltiMario

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idk what you guys did to metaknight but it's ****ing terrible. he was better when he was completely unchanged except for the tornado/up B nerfs that I played on thunderhorse's wii like 3 months ago.
This deeply concerns me if this MK is the new top secret build.

Don't make me start ****ing showing up to places in order to make MK not suck I swear.
 

Shadic

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The MK being used was probably a highly experimental version being worked on by just a few PMBR members.

Which makes me wonder why in the hell JC/anybody had it on their Wii over there.
 

`dazrin

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LOL, why do you guys think they aren't showing MK on stream? He's at an extremely early phase of development.. new MK is probably super experimental, lol stop hatin on MK.

Anyways, great tournament/stream! Was very entertaining to watch and observe certain MU's. JC vs Cmart's Marth vs Bowser CP on metal cavern was freakin awesome lol. Great matches, looking forward to more :)

edit: damn shadic ninja'd me to it :(
 
D

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yeah guys look a zelda player got 1st doesn't that mean zelda's really good and not the player?

#brawlplayers
to be honest i could have played zelda and gotten first if ryoko didn't. the character is just really good.

but yeah ryoko was doing extremely well as peach, although i guess anyone on the stream would have seen that firsthand.
 

UltiMario

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wtf are you talking about

Peach
Sheik
Zelda
ZSS
Marth
DK

that is 6 charcters lol
 

9Kplus1

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ROB is female and Sheik is male. Get your facts straight.

Btw JC, I went Ike + Pit only in singles. DDD was a pretty big "no" for me at the time. I did use DDD for team combos in doubles, though :awesome:

:phone:
 

`dazrin

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Peach dominating both melee and p:m scenes, sup? :D [Armada&Ryoko]

All hail the Queen of Smash! Kinda makes you wonder why she gets Mario to save her from Bowser all the time when she could just do it herself :p

Jokes aside, I definitely think the melee top/high tier cast will retain their postions in tournament play once P:M is released to the public :) - Just meaningless speculation though of course :)
 

Rhubarbo

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Hey guys, I've been following this thread for a long time now and one thing that I've noticed is that there is no concise direction for Olimar. Being a big Pikmin fan, I would like to make a case for how I believe Olimar should handle:

Olimar is a man (err...a Hocotatian) that has an intimate relationship with his Pikmin. His bond with his carrot troopers should translate into Project M with a larger emphasis placed on each individual plucked Pikmin. Consequently, it would take a much longer time to pluck a single Pikmin, around 85 frames, but each Pikmin would be proportionately more resilient.

To reinforce this heavier reliance on every single plucked Pikmin, Olimar would be limited to 3. Three is an ideal number because it allows Olimar to have varied options but also forces him to be selective about what Pikmin he carries.

To coincide with the aforementioned changes and to generally increase the strategic merit of Olimar overall, our favourite gardening spaceman should be able to pick his plants he wants, specifically. Olimar should be able to choose the colour of every Pikmin he plucks. The easiest remedy would be to map one type of Pikmin to the B button and the remaining four types to each direction on the d-pad. Although Olimar loses all of his taunts in the process, a spaceman pulling a murderous carrot out of the ground is taunting enough.

All of this strategic reliance on each individual Pikmin would be squandered if Olimar's Pikmin rotated upon being used, so that character trait would be eliminated.

Each Pikmin under this new system would serve a very specific role. Their roles would be as follows:

Red Pikmin: A jack of all trades, Red Pikmin would always be a decent choice. Damage dealt by Red Pikmin would be slightly higher than all of the other types, save for Purple. Red Pikmin would also have the benefit of having the most health.

Blue Pikmin: Face it, blue Pikmin have always been the pansies of the bunch. Thus, Blue Pikmin would deal noticeably less damage than all of their counterparts, save for White Pikmin. However, Blue Pikmin would have the advantage of dealing the lowest knockback amongst their carrot brethren, making them extremely useful for comboing at higher percentages.

Yellow Pikmin: Although a trait regrettably absent from Pikmin 2, Yellow Pikmin were once reputed as the explosive types, and I don't mean personality wise. In Project M, after latching onto an enemy as a result of Olimar's side special, after a given period of time (around 100 frames), they would blow up. This would be an excellent edgeguarding tool for Olimar, but the trade off would be Olimar would lose a Pikmin with certainty; a much more daunting repercussion under this new system considering the increased amount of time it takes to pluck a Pikmin.

Yellow Pikmin also have a penchant for reaching the highest of heights. This would translate into Project M with every additional Yellow Pikmin under Olimar's control slightly propelling him further upwards during his recovery.

Purple Pikmin: The shear heavy weights of the group, Purple Pikmin wouldn't undergo much of a change from their VBrawl counterparts. Slow and clunky, Purple Pikmin would be ideal finishers.

White Pikmin: White Pikmin are the understated badasses in Olimar's arsenal. Although statistically the poorest in most regards relative to their counterparts, White Pikmin would give Olimar access to the fastest variations of his attacks, perfect for interrupting the opponent. White Pikmin would also deal immense quantities of damage upon successfully latching onto the opponent, around 15% on contact and 7% every 20 frames. However, White Pikmin would be more predictable under this new system as they would have to be selectively shifted to the front of Olimar's order in order to used, giving the opponent an equitable amount of time to prepare for their incoming poisony goodness.

Under this proposed system, various meta-game strategies can flourish. For instance, Olimar could keep Red and Yellow Pikmin handy while at higher percentages, the Red Pikmin serving as spacing tools with their ability to absorb attacks due to their higher HP and the Yellow Pikmin functioning as recovery aides. Conversely, if the enemy is at higer percentages, Olimar can carry Purple and Yellow Pikmin, getting the opponent off of the stage with the brutish Purples and edgeguarding with the Yellows’ explosive ability.

To conclude this overhaul, Olimar can be completely fleshed out by expanding on the functionality of his side special move. In VBrawl, Olimar's Pikmin Toss move served merely one monotonous function. To improve the scope of its functionality, it may be given additional, context sensitive usages:

1) When tossing a Pikmin behind the opponent, it would pull the opponent towards Olimar while returning to him. This would have a similar effect to VBrawl Link's Gale Boomerang and serve as an excellent spacing tool. The downside to this manoeuvre would be that Olimar's lead Pikmin would be in harms way, and he would only have access to two Pikmin during the manoeuvre.

2) When tossing a Pikmin at the ground in front of the opponent, it would enter an idle state. Should the opponent come within a certain radius of an idle Pikmin, it would do one of several, color dependant moves:

-Purple and Red Pikmin would perform their respective forward smash attacks on the opponent.

-Blue Pikmin would grab and hold the opponent.

-Yellow Pikmin would blow up.

-White Pikmin would latch on to the opponent.

This manoeuvre grants Olimar decent stage control, but limits his count of on-hand Pikmin. The trade-off is reasonable. At any time though, Olimar can call idel Pikmin to him with his whistle.
---
And that folks, is what I think should be done with Olimar.

EDIT: Can someone tell me how to hide text in a little "show" box?
 

hotdogturtle

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2) When tossing a Pikmin at the ground in front of the opponent, it would enter an idle state. Should the opponent come within a certain radius of an idle Pikmin, it would do one of several, color dependant moves:

-Purple and Red Pikmin would perform their respective forward smash attacks on the opponent.

-Blue Pikmin would grab and hold the opponent.

-Yellow Pikmin would blow up.

-White Pikmin would latch on to the opponent.

This manoeuvre grants Olimar decent stage control, but limits his count of on-hand Pikmin. The trade-off is reasonable. At any time though, Olimar can call idel Pikmin to him with his whistle.
Don't let your imagination get ahead of yourself.
 

phurgawtin

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So, for the vids JCaes is going to upload... will any of the videos be restricted because they contain experimental characters? I hope not :glare:.
 

metroid1117

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@Rhubarbo: To use the "show" boxes, type whatever text you want between (collapse) and (/collapse), except use brackets instead of parenthesis.

i still think ike is total garbage.

i played kiri's ike and after half an hour he said the same thing.

idk the character can do things but none of them are really threatening except going out long for fair edge guards. those were pretty cool admittedly.
Hey Umbreon, would you (or Kiri, for that matter) mind elaborating on why the current Ike can't do anything that's "really threatening"? Spaced FAirs/NAirs seem hard to get around in theory, the jab is a good get-off move, and QD edgeguards (which you've already pointed out) seem solid. I could also see B-reversal QD's and wavedashing out of QD to be good for mixing up grounded approaches, but I haven't played Ike so I can't be sure.

Regarding Ike combos - against spacies, can he UThrow chaingrab like Marth and finish it with an USmash? Also, if your opponent is on the ground (and has bad DI), is DAir -> FSmash a combo at mid %s? If it's anything like CF's stomp, it seems like it would work.
 

phurgawtin

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We don't change "the rules" in regards to experimental characters. They don't get shown no matter what on Youtube.
I wasn't petitioning that you should change that rule. I was merely stating that I hope all of the characters used for that tourney are worked-on enough to be shown on youtube.

I don't know of any available list for which characters are allowed to be broadcast publicly.
 

ph00tbag

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Uhhhh, Fox's Upair comes out frame 8, and Bair comes out frame 4. I don't know what you're talking about. They are also way easier to hit with than Ness's Bair, which he has to sweetspot and doesn't have much range.
The frame 8 hitbox on uair doesn't KO and can be SDI'd, making the frame 11 KO hitbox just as hard to hit with consistently as Ness's bair, if not harder. Neither Peach's bair or nair have near the KO capacity as Ness's bair. They're edgeguard set-ups.

As far as what I see wrong with Lucas, he used to have trouble approaching, comboing and KOing. But, he's fast on the ground, with a pretty quick projectile, giving him decent oki, and he has one of the best edgeguards in the game, meaning he doesn't really need combos or KOs anyway. But he doesn't have good zoning, or a good way to close the gap. The fixes made were thus: make PK Freeze land cancelable, and allow Lucas to retain his forward momentum during it. Grounded PK Freeze fires upward at about a thirty degree angle. PSI magnet now causes Lucas to advance forward very quickly, eating through any energy projectile in his path, and ending in an attack with buffed damage and knockback. Jab has more range, uair has a high base knockback, and a low knockback growth.

There's no direction to these buffs. The PK Freeze buffs apply to a zoning character, which I've already established that Lucas is not. He can use aerial PK Freeze to create approach openings, but it works better when used in tandem with grounded PK freeze to control both the ground and the air to force the opponent to try to force his way through it by attacking blindly. Psi Magnet was just absurd, and made no sense as a move. To my knowledge, it still hasn't been reverted, which is just silly. The uair sought to make Lucas combo better. Dair was also changed, although all it did was remove a pressure mix-up.

I realized this character was broken after G6, when Twitch started messing around with Lucas, and the only way other characters could even fight him was to bust through PK freeze with an aerial at full speed, and surrender all of the positioning and game time that that takes up. All it took was setting up a good spacing, and you could punish any character's approach. After that, you just combo the hell out of them, then knock them offstage, and edgeguard with PK Thunder. This character was perfect, and that's not a good thing. A month later, a Lucas trashed everyone at some PMBR tournament, presumably using a similar strategy to this, albeit even more nuanced.

So a couple nerfs were added. Lucas's PK Thunder 1 was shortened to pretty much only make it useful for recovering, but PKT2 was also shortened, so it wasn't even really worth it to use that, making rope snake the only viable recovery Lucas had. So to recap, we now have a character that has ridiculous onstage space control, incredible pressure, and protracted, damaging combos. The only problem now is that he can't KO or edgeguard, and he can't recover.

So now a buff is given to solve the KO problem. A new bair. It does absurd damage (therefore absurd blockstun), absurd knockback, and has absurd range. I shouldn't have to break down why this move is just... nonsensical. Just watch any stream with Lucas. He's spammy, lacks nuance, and just doesn't really change his gameplan up much. Most of it is PK Freeze and bair, with a couple uair combos thrown in.

For some context, I spent a lot of time with Lucas around the time Demo 1 came out. I recognized that he wasn't up to par, but I felt that with some dedication, a game plan could at least be figured out. And I figured out some really, really cool things. Fair was an incredible poke, that could be thrown into block strings safely. It also combo'd if DI'd incorrectly. PSI Magnet and ftilt could semi-spike, setting up for really easy edgeguards. Dair could be mixed into pressure strings to punish jumping out of shield. PK Thunder 1 was one of the safest edgeguards in the game. Most importantly, nair chewed through spot dodges, and had short enough cooldown that Lucas could follow rolls with mix-ups afterwards. I found a lot of really neat ways to pressure opponents once I got them locked down. The only problem was that locking them down usually required a pretty egregious error on their part. But then I looked at Lucas's hitboxes and realized why: nair's hitbox doesn't even cover up his limbs. The reason he gets swatted out of so many jump-ins is because he's totally exposed in his only good jump-in move. Around this time, Yeroc asked me for a write-up on Lucas. I gave him two answers. One of them, I'm not so fond of, to the point where I don't think it bears repeating. The one I'm most fond of is this: Make nair bigger.

That's it. That's all Lucas needs, and he retains all of the really neat, nuanced, natural-feeling and really unique options that he had to begin with. Now, though, Lucas has been turned into some kind of Frankenstein's Monster of a character. Changes are made aimlessly, as if the people in charge of the character are just throwing darts at a bunch of post-it notes, and hoping this causes the character to cohere into something meaningful. Why does Lucas now have Guile's Flash Kick? I really wish I knew. All I can say is, Lucas was really cool in Demo 1, and could have had a lot of potential with one tweak. Now he's not cool, and I don't even want to think about his potential.
 

Stunts

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Quick questio (Im sure I asked this before)

but is the team planning on redoing the event matches? or touching them up? ... or touching them at all?:urg:
 

`dazrin

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Can we let the PMBR focus on demo2/ the game as a whole being released "on time" rather than worrying about 1player modes like SSE and Event Matches that have nothing to do with competitive melee-like play? (which more or less the aim of the project iirc) >.>

I know you're just asking a question, and it's nothing against you personally at all, but seriously: a majority of people will be playing this game for the versus mode- not to play break the targets or home run contest with melee physics. T~T

Just wanted to get it out there.
*inb4SSEisfun & flameshield on*
 
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