Project M Social Thread

[I R MarF]

I was thinking making it able to instant turn around and JC with proper timing, like a shine, only, more used for its positioning than for attacking itself.

I also mentioned having it do flinchless damage on start up, allowing it to aid in shield pressure and tack on damage without messing up hitstun.

I don't see why not. I always thought any character that could DJC should also have great shield pressure potential. This idea has my support.

 

[genkaku]

lol, is that umbreon getting so angry on the stream?
It's difficult to tell how much adjusting has to do with the new characters being super gimicky due to the buffeverything approach that we've been discussing and how much of it is just that they're new matchups to learn.

 

[leelue]

However, even if that was changed, its incredibily minimalistic and doesn't impact the actual main flaw with characters like ROB and Zelda, and thats the lack of a counterbalance integral to their playstyle.

I continue to side firmly with this reasoning.
I disapprove of this type of character design when it is applied accross the board. Snake underperformed in the demo, and the next thing you know all of his bad attacks are useful, his grab can walk people around to line up with mines better, but his overtly strong points (the dash attack and recovery) are normalized. (The recovery may have a cool new hitbox, but the distance is Meh and the ability to airdodge was removed.)

I don't know for you, but when I started playing against snake I lost often. He knew what he was doing and I had no idea. Then the matches hit equilibrium and I started winning soon after. Then he pulled it closer as he got better with the character.

If player A is a character that they've played for 6 years and player B is a new build, I don't care how unfamilar the matchup is; if player A applies the skills they've honed for the last half decade and go up against someone who's only used this current build of a character for two weeks, the intimate knowledge for player A should supersede player B's more topical understanding in a short period of time if not immediately. Player A won't know how to DI player B's down throw the first 2-3 times, sure, but around there they should have it figured out. Over the course of a set the general applications of player B's character become less novel and now we are dealing with two players who know, proportionately, about the same amount of characteristics for character B.

It helps my case that ones understanding of a character (or anything) follows a curve with diminishing gains along the Y axis for the same amount of time on the X axis.

It follows like so
Match 1
Player A's knowledge = 0%
Player B's knowledge = 40% (assuming they've played them for a while)

Match 3
pA = 15%
pB = 43%

Match 6
pA = 26%
pB = 45%

And so on
The numbers are pulled right out of nowhere, but the concept is completely sensical.
As you can see, at the beginning player A knew infinitesimally less about character B than player B. Sure, player B wins that round handily. Then, over time as player B starts learning less and less about their character, player A knows about half as much as player B. The gap may never close all of the way, but it shrinks. Not only that, but it shrinks rapidly at the beginning.
It's a somewhat different animal when you take Jcaesar's ROB; He mains him and loves him and has played him for quite some time. Also, ROB hasn't changed all that much in the last 6 months (new Uair, a fB that does something on the ground, and now more fall speed). He has weaknesses, faults and is pretty interesting to watch and play. This character I don't mind too much (maybe he is a tad too strong. Maybe not. It's hard for me to tell). Others, I do.

 

[I R MarF]

lol, is that umbreon getting so angry on the stream?
It's difficult to tell how much adjusting has to do with the new characters being super gimicky due to the buffeverything approach that we've been discussing and how much of it is just that they're new matchups to learn.

Whats there to learn in the MU when the person playing these over-buffed characters doesn't have any weaknesses to overcome, and the veteran characters have no weaknesses to take advantage of?

I get the impression a lot of the new characters in P:M would be easy to pick up. The only exception being Lucario (unless you play traditional fight games) and maybe like Snake, Lucas, and Olimar whenever he gets worked on.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Fox, Falco, Jiggs et al. get away with their weaknesses because they have ridiculous attributes like shine, rest, float canceling etc.
If they implemented such moves on the other characters, people would cry nerf, as they wouldn't be used to them.

As a result, they'd rather build characters that are just pretty good all around.
At least that's what I think.

 

[Landry]

I've started to use the Project:M demo as a way of introducing my friends who are familiar with Brawl to Melee. It seems to be working pretty well so far. Can't wait for you guys to get that next demo out - the old one is kinda painful at times.

 

[Archangel]

it's pretty painful lol.

 

[I R MarF]

Fox, Falco, Jiggs et al. get away with their weaknesses because they have ridiculous attributes like shine, rest, float canceling etc.
If they implemented such moves on the other characters, people would cry nerf, as they wouldn't be used to them.

As a result, they'd rather build characters that are just pretty good all around.
At least that's what I think.

Since you said Jiggs has float cancelling, I've already assumed that you don't know much about these characters to begin with and you are making a statement with minimal knowledge on the subject, but I'm gonna go ahead and explain to you why those characters aren't overpowered and its actually the new characters that are.

First off, it isn't just Fox, Falco, and Jiggs who have clear set weaknesses... all the other viable characters like Marth, Peach, C. Falcon, Ganondorf, ICs, Samus, and Doc have very defined weaknesses of their own. They are also able to "get away" with their weaknesses.

You see, its essential to design characters with specific strengths and weaknesses because its results in 3 things:

1. The character has specific strengths that can be emphasized on, allowing them to win if played correctly
2. The character has weaknesses substantial enough that they act as a counterbalance to their strengths and have to be considered in their playstyle, it also allows them to lose if played incorrectly
3. Due to a combination of 1 and 2, the character has to be learned and their accessibility requires devotion, thus, the playability of other characters is not ruined

Making everyone "good all around" is bad. I'll show how it ruins the 3 things stated above:

1. Since the character is "good all around", there are no specific strengths to be emphasized on... so there is no incorrect way to play the character and any situation/playstyle could potentially work
2. If the character is a jack of all trades, master of none instead of typical "pro and con" then they have no weaknesses to overcome and mistakes with the character are forgiving. Also, this means that the opponent has no weakness to take advantage of; losing would come from being outplayed than mistakes
3. Since the character doesn't require the player to learn their best playstyle or what weaknesses to overcome, they are dirt easy to play so it'd ruin the playability of other characters who seem too inaccessible.

 

[phurgawtin]

if Peach never existed in Melee, and Project M introduced this character peach working identically to melee, there would be cries about not having any bad moves, overpowered dsmash, and a gimmicky floating mechanic that makes doing aerials offstage too safe in comparison to the rest of the cast.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Since you said Jiggs has float cancelling, I've already assumed that you don't know much about these characters to begin with and you are making a statement with minimal knowledge on the subject.

et al. means "and all". As in "and all of the top/high tiers"

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fox, Falco, Jiggs et al. get away with their weaknesses because they have ridiculous attributes like shine, rest, float canceling etc.
If they implemented such moves on the other characters, people would cry nerf, as they wouldn't be used to them.

As a result, they'd rather build characters that are just pretty good all around.
At least that's what I think.

This is why I'm perfectly fine with Mario's cape being as good as it is.

Squirtle's Side B is still dumb though, even with its current remake.


Et al. means "And others" not "and all."

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Et al. means "And others" not "and all."

Close enough lol

But yeah. Demo 2 will be a good way to expose what can be improved about the characters, what they can change in their movesets to make their most effective playstyles more well.. effective.

 

[leelue]

This is why I'm hot"

These three statements are why you're my favorite person on the boards.





I don't think the "cry nerf" mob should be taken that much into account by the developers, but I've heard it from developers too. For example, when Ness started using two pk fires in one series of jumps on JC's stream, the opponent (or spectator) immediately said that this effect was too good when it is also allowed to activate on shield. It hit him at a visceral level. In reality, they should check to see if this apparently OP tactic is offset by Ness' negative traits. When these strong moves come up and are culled, it takes away the opportunity to have characters like puff (who has what... 7 moves?) Or falco (who spawns at what... 700%?)

This normalization of strengths is disconcerting.
It isn't 100% universal, but it is damn close (from over here at least).

I come from Magic: The Gathering, a game where the entire progression is about resource management and all of the cards are weighted by difficulty to use. There are checks and balances for every card with regards to resilience, opportunities of usage, and the amount of devotion necessary to use them. It is damn close to a perfect system.

What about in here?
I made the argument a long time ago that RARing in its current state results in a loss of depth. The counterargument was that RARing adds options and that in turn adds depth. I still stand by my first statement. RARing allows a character the freedom to perform their aerials at maximum efficiency with no cost to offset the additional options. There is no balance to a system that allows you to use all options without any give and take. If the window where one is allowed to RAR was increased, then a character like wolf or do would have to put in a little more work to get their best move for the situation.
This is true depth: things should (but don't) have an up and downside between options. Now, very often there's just the strictly better version of something and the strictly worse version.*
If the RAR window was pushed back a tiny bit, you achieve greater depth by distributing characters' Fairs and Bairs; those with great bairs but worse fairs lose a little (fox), and those with the opposite don't mind nearly as much (ness comes to mind). This uneven distribution of aerial supremacy in regards to ease of approach seems to me a very healthy extra wrinkle that can be designed around.



*This argument extends to jc grabs and dashing grabs.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

It seems to be more like:

Link = good onstage and poor recovery
TL = better onstage but worse recovery

That's kind of weird, having the kid have better fighting game... well nothing I can do about it

 

[ph00tbag]

I don't see why not. I always thought any character that could DJC should also have great shield pressure potential. This idea has my support.

Except Ness isn't about pressure or rush down or hit and run, or any playstyle that focuses on good shield pressure. If any character can be said to be Melee's Dhalsim, it's Ness. Weird disjointed hitboxes with wonky dead zones? Check. Difficult to predict midair movement options? Check. His projectile game has different goals than Dhalsim, and his oki isn't as solid, but Ness is a zoning character, make no mistake.

If you want a character that could stand to have more pressure options, I'd say go with Lucas. his SH nair is already really hard to deal with on block, his full jump dair already mixes up with that, DJC uair already has a lot of blockstun, and his down b already does damage to begin with. (For the record, I'm starting from Brawl Lucas in this analysis, because the current Lucas is a travesty that illustrates leelue's point far better than any other character in the game.)

 

[Kink-Link5]

Lucas has way weirder hitboxes than Ness. Fair, bair, all smashes, f-tilt, u-tilt, zair and grab all are all disjointed. The only disjointed moves Ness has are Dash attack, Smashes, and fair. None of which are anything like Dhalsim's anything. I seriously want to know from where you pulled this idea that Ness, a character with some of the worst range moves in the game, is a zoning character.

Ivysaur is much more akin to Dhalsim than either of them anyway.

 

[Shadic]

That's kind of weird, having the kid have better fighting game... well nothing I can do about it

He's a faster character. It makes sense that he'd combo better.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Plus look at Wind Waker. That kid knows how to attack.



On another point, I absolutely love that Wind Waker Link is not at all any kind of descendant of Link's blood line, and is just some farm kid on a rural island who got pulled into his adventure, only to emerge as one of the most bad *** Links in any of the games.

 

[leelue]

Thanks for the support phootbag

I just realized that sonic does not RAR well. At least I don't think so, he appears to lose all momentum.
What factors control the transference of momentum in RARing?

 

[genkaku]

if Peach never existed in Melee, and Project M introduced this character peach working identically to melee, there would be cries about not having any bad moves, overpowered dsmash, and a gimmicky floating mechanic that makes doing aerials offstage too safe in comparison to the rest of the cast.

peach is extremely gimmicky and if all of the "viable" characters in melee were comparable in that respect I probably wouln't play this game.
She has a good number of bad moves (when was the last time you neutralB'ed?) and based on her current playstyle/movement limitations is balanced nicely, though. If anything, peach can serve as a good model for when gimmicks are appropriate and can accent gameplay in a way that allows for peach to be viable while maintaining her natural limitations.

 

[leelue]

Melee peach is my favorite character in all 4 smash games, and I somehow never noticed how odd she is. She's like brawl game and watch, in this way.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Friction has a lot to do with it, as well as the animation of the turn around. Squirtle has a super good RAR for example


thanks for updating thread



That was in response to how momentum is carried when raring

 

[leelue]

I got it kink. Thanks

 

[Archangel]

Melee peach is my favorite character in all 4 smash games, and I somehow never noticed how odd she is. She's like brawl game and watch, in this way.

She is your favorite in all 4 games?

 

[leelue]

Especially in 64

 

[Archangel]

you don't say?....Personally I am a big fan of Snake. Loved him since 64.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I've been maining Sukapon since Smash Brothers (The one without a "super" in front).

 

[giovannig22311]

Late March/Beginning of April.

And, not to sound rude, but would you mind using a little less colloquial manor of posting? It makes the post look nicer and gives yourself a better name.

look thats jus how i rite u feel me bra? i anit gon tak my mf time to write proper as f.uk cuse mfs dnt lik it i HATE WEN ppl so concerned about how i rite if dnt lik wat im postin jus skip down my **** bra, im jus sayin this is how rite

 

[ph00tbag]

Lucas has way weirder hitboxes than Ness. Fair, bair, all smashes, f-tilt, u-tilt, zair and grab all are all disjointed. The only disjointed moves Ness has are Dash attack, Smashes, and fair. None of which are anything like Dhalsim's anything. I seriously want to know from where you pulled this idea that Ness, a character with some of the worst range moves in the game, is a zoning character.

Ivysaur is much more akin to Dhalsim than either of them anyway.

But Lucas doesn't use his disjointed attacks to zone his opponent. Fair doesn't control space because of its transience unless he's actively poking his opponent, and his smashes are designed to punish bad spacing, not force it. Ftilt is a solid poke, but nothing more, and utilt is disjointed so it can be used for platform pressure. The only move that he has that he can use to really control his opponent is nair, which is decidedly not disjointed. He uses this move to lock opponents into his pressure options, of which he has many. Once he's opened his opponent up, he tries to either get knockdown to keep up the pressure, or get his opponent off stage, where he has some of the best edgeguarding moves in the game.

On the other hand, Ness controls huge amounts of space with fair alone, especially with the potential control afforded by DJC mix-ups, and PK fire allows him to lock down his opponent from a distance. He uses these two moves to force his opponent to either give up ground, or try to predict what zone he won't cover next. Then, if he's able to get a solid hit out of that, he uses his short ranged attacks to punish with combos, and more assured outright KO power.

I do think, though, that both characters could stand a few more changes to move them in those directions. In particular, Ness's ftilt should be a yo-yo attack that doesn't do much knockback, but has a lot of range, and is decently safe on block, and Lucas could use a larger hitbox on nair so he can't just get swatted out of it every time he tries to approach (I think this has actually been done, though).

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

look thats jus how i rite u feel me bra? i anit gon tak my mf time to write proper as f.uk cuse mfs dnt lik it i HATE WEN ppl so concerned about how i rite if dnt lik wat im postin jus skip down my **** bra, im jus sayin this is how rite

What trash inner-city school taught you to spell?

 

[Shadic]

The more effort somebody puts into writing something, the more effort I'll but into reading it.

If it's written like trash, I'll treat it like such.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Any incompatibilities of the demo we all should know about? Will SSE, boss rush, all starts, etc. work? or not because of a glitch or intentional disable?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think PK Fire does a much better job at attacking a shield than it does poking out an approach but that's just me.

Flinchless damage on start of of PSI Mag, in addition to a fast turn around and instant Jump Cancel would only help Ness's game, no matter what poorly defined "Role" he is meant to play.

I honestly think designing a character around a single role is not a good plan in general, and that it is a much better idea to make the character well balanced, instead of having to rely on specific playstyles. I look to Melee for guidance on this. The low tier characters pretty much have to play super defensive and gay because it's all they can do, but the top characters can be played in both a defensive way (Except maybe Falcon and Ice Climbers?) and an offensive way, and preform equally well, while also having the ability to switch between the two styles.

 

[leelue]

look thats jus how i rite u feel me bra? i anit gon tak my mf time to write proper as f.uk cuse mfs dnt lik it i HATE WEN ppl so concerned about how i rite if dnt lik wat im postin jus skip down my **** bra, im jus sayin this is how rite

I averaged 0.90 words per second in my reading speed.
When kinklink asked you to write like you've at least been to junior high-school [citation needed] he was asking for everyone.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

look thats jus how i rite u feel me bra? i anit gon tak my mf time to write proper as f.uk cuse mfs dnt lik it i HATE WEN ppl so concerned about how i rite if dnt lik wat im postin jus skip down my **** bra, im jus sayin this is how rite

A successful troll, you got me.

Someday I am going to come to U.S. and teach people like you how to write in english.
If you are really nice, I might even consider giving some speech therapy.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I averaged 0.90 words per second in my reading speed.
When kinklink asked you to write like you've at least been to junior high-school [citation needed] he was asking for everyone.

I asked it a little more politely than that but that's the general idea, yeah.


Oh hey what's this thread about.


I'm getting close to a 1K milestone, you know what that means, time for a new avatar soon.

 

[ph00tbag]

I think PK Fire does a much better job at attacking a shield than it does poking out an approach but that's just me.

It forces a roll on shield if you don't want to trade or get grabbed. Ness can easily cover both roll options with a solid feinted grab.

Flinchless damage on start of of PSI Mag, in addition to a fast turn around and instant Jump Cancel would only help Ness's game, no matter what poorly defined "Role" he is meant to play.

I honestly think designing a character around a single role is not a good plan in general, and that it is a much better idea to make the character well balanced, instead of having to rely on specific playstyles. I look to Melee for guidance on this. The low tier characters pretty much have to play super defensive and gay because it's all they can do, but the top characters can be played in both a defensive way (Except maybe Falcon and Ice Climbers?) and an offensive way, and preform equally well, while also having the ability to switch between the two styles.

That's because there's offensive and defensive ways to fill the roles they're made to fill. As a pixie, Fox can be played in a bait-and-punish style, the defensive end of pixie play, or in a hit-and-run style, the offensive end. Either way, Fox's gameplay focuses on his high mobility and safe moveset, and offsets his weakness to combos and edgeguarding by not remaining in areas of danger longer than necessary.

Contrast this with the concept of Ness with a JCable hitstun-dealer. DJC alone gives Ness some pretty powerful shield pressure options (fresh perfect uairs are -2 on block), and you're suggesting cutting his pillar cycle in half, effectively giving him the third fastest pillar to Fox and Peach.

Fox doesn't have a projectile that activates a persistent hitbox on block. Neither does Peach. Neither of them have an aerial KO move that comes out on frame 10.

This is exactly the thought process leelue is warning against. You're saying it's not sufficient for Ness to have basic pressure tools when he has some of the best zoning options, KO moves and KO set-ups in the game. He needs to be able to pressure his opponent with near impunity as well. That isn't solid game design. It's the kind of thought process that led to the monstrosity that is Lucas's current incarnation.

 

[9Kplus1]

Speaking of Lucas... **** him. Could you guys replace him with Nana? Nana's way more of a charater than Lucas will ever be, even when she's menstrating.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I made it pretty clear that it doesn't have hitstun >_>

You are legit just theroy smashing saying it would make him stupid good. Nothing will ever reach the levels ZZS and Zelda are on in that department, and nothing will reach the level of easiness of those characters either. Miss predict your opponent in shield pressure, and you get grabbed while the opponent takes the 5% non flinch damage.

The 5% may be too high for what you consider as such, but how much do Shine and Peach's nair deal?

Also does anyone happen to have the formulas for Shieldstun and shield pushback handy? Both are an important balancing aspect of shield pressure, outside of the obvious shield damage, which can be adjusted manual per move.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Fox doesn't have a projectile that activates a persistent hitbox on block. Neither does Peach. Neither of them have an aerial KO move that comes out on frame 10.

Uhhhh, Fox's Upair comes out frame 8, and Bair comes out frame 4. I don't know what you're talking about. They are also way easier to hit with than Ness's Bair, which he has to sweetspot and doesn't have much range.

Also what is it about the current Lucas that you hate so much? What weakness's that he had before have been covered up?

The equation for shield stun in Melee is
[(damage + 4.45) / 2.235]