Project M Social Thread

[`dazrin]

Lol. Are you seriously trying to persuade the general audience of this thread that marth is "bad"? You should try using young link or something in tournaments. That'll give you something to complain about when it comes to "killing power."

Marth doesn't have "SERIOUS" issues killing players at high%. He's perfectly fine; try a tipper'd fsmash. Marth's grabs aren't really used for "killing" straight up like doc's b-throw. Marth's grabs are used for combos and techchases- I'm sure you're well aware of this as a marth main.

There is a REASON why Marth has always been near the top of the tier list, spam_aarows.

And again, if you're going to bring up marth's MU's being buffed, nothing is set in stone and like you've been hearing for the last 2 years: everything is subject to change. Things in P:M change all the time, so its pointless to argue or even discuss a character's MUs in P:M at this time.

Overall, Marth is a grade A character and always has been throughout melee history. While it's true that he somewhat lacks straight up power, he makes up for in speed, range, priority, combo-ability, gimp potential, and edge-guarding game.

As much as I'd like to see my main get buffs, I really don't see where he would need them. Not that it affects marth in any way, but there are others in the cast whom are much more deserving of buffs.

MARTH IS FINE.

 

[KI7]

Are there/What are the arguments against giving Shiek the PAL dthrow?
Looking forward to the Demo 2 btw. Its gonna bring some PM hype back to Germany.

 

[Archangel]

I agree with you that he will have more problems edgeguarding... which is why i dont understand your previous buff suggestion of increasing the power of his dsmash or sideB. Neither of them aid him in edgeguarding, so a more sensible suggestion would be to either increase the kill power of the tippered bair, or make it have a more downwards trajectory

I never suggested to make it more powerful I said his Dsmash should have less lag on the end. SideB will technically stronger but roy's side be has small advantages.

Your cup is full. At no point did I ever say Marth is BAD. I'm saying left as is when the smoke clears he will not be near the top or the middle of project M. Toon link as well as everyone else are being scaled to battle top tiers. I'm not talking about you playing JC I'm talking what happens when the really good Melee players get their hands on Project M. I actually remember JC to....umbreon...I believe that he was so much better than him in general that going Rob was his only chance. Meaning there is a skill difference not being considered at times.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Marth. aka kills my character at like 80 while I struggle to kill him.

 

[Stunts]

I vouge to wait as long as it takes for Squirtle to be playable for Demo 2

Marth. aka kills my character at like 80 while I struggle to kill him.

Soo true

 

[`dazrin]

You're asking for buffs on an already well-established character that outclasses the majority of the cast in melee. I never said that you said marth was bad, I stated he's fine as is, and doesn't need buffs.

Yes, it's true many previously lower-tiered characters are being scaled accordingly to at least be able to compete with the high/top-tier characters. As JC said, "perfect balance is nearly impossible. we're aiming for viability, which marth certainly is." Which is the reason why the lower tiers are being balanced to be viable in tournament play- so that they can actually compete.

And "when the smoke clears" is again, a long time from now and way too far off to see/judge accordingly; again the phrase, "everything is subject to change" comes to mind. Marth will still be perfectly viable even when these lower tier characters will be balanced. If your fear is that he will wither away and become obsolete, you're mistaken.

btw: I have never played with JC in my life... dunno what you're talking about there

 

[ValTroX]

TBH, Marth will lose some appeal in P:M because most characters have better recovery, and the fact that they can grab the ledge with their backs. It doesn't make him a bad character, but certainly makes him weaker at the edgeguarding game, which was basically Marth's game.

 

[I R MarF]

Marth. aka kills my character at like 80 while I struggle to kill him.

I assume you play Samus? Yeah, they both should have an awful time trying to kill eachother. If a Marth is kill your Samus at 80% you probably recovered too high and got daired or didn't DI well on an fsmash/ftilt and then got dtilt> edge hogged.

Samus wouldn't die that early to Marth in any other case... or many other characters that matter... her recovery is too good

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Actually I play YL/GaW. My postbits are never representative of characters I actually play.

And GaW dies quite a bit earlier than 80 sometimes

 

[`dazrin]

heyy supreme dirt is a fellow yl player :D

 

[I R MarF]

Marth definitely isn't bad, I just don't see the sense behind buffing Peach and C. Falcon but not Marth. Giving him a safe high percent kill option (aka BUFF BAIR) is not that big of a deal and makes sense. Everyone else has something like that.

Actually I play YL/GaW. My postbits are never representative of characters I actually play.

And GaW dies quite a bit earlier than 80 sometimes

Lol well they both have pretty bad recoveries and GaW is one of the lightest characters in the game, so there is your problem. Fox/Falco/C. Falcon would kill them faster anyway. At least with Marth you have the security of knowing that once you make it past his combo percents, his moves don't connect well and he will have to just hit you until you die.

EDIT: Actually, YL's recovery is decent if he can grapple, other than that, it sucks

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh yeah. I actually like the Marth vs. YL MU until it comes time to land the kill move. GaW I actually specific picked up for Spacies, lol.

I've tried to play top, high, and even mid tiered characters, but I always come back to YL.

And yeah, it's more GaW's recovery. Poor GaW.

 

[shanus]

marth gets this thing called a pivot grab

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh yeah lol.

Now Marth can grab you from several setups over.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Yeah, his melee grab range was only 1/4 of FD.

 

[I R MarF]

Lol but everyone gets a pivot grab, and IIRC, Marth doesn't have the biggest non-tether; D3 and Charizard do. So their pivots are probably gigantic.

 

[drsusredfish]

marth also got 2 more taunts and taunt cancels best buffs ever.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Also he can footstool people.

 

[`dazrin]

i feel you, SD.

I picked up marth/shiek specifically for spacies, even though YL was and will always be my true main

 

[I R MarF]

Thats funny, I always figured YL would have had a decent MU with the spacies due to dsmash and nair effing them up hard

Also he can footstool people.

Lol what is this... I don't even...

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Hehe, YL's two worst MUs in pretty much anyone's opinions are Fox, then Falco.

Fox is an absolute nightmarish MU. And Falco isn't much better.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Lol what is this... I don't even...

Oh and he can grab the ledge backwards.

 

[Kink-Link5]

DoYouGetitYet.wav

 

[I R MarF]

Oh and he can grab the ledge backwards.

Why list traits everyone is getting as if they are specific the Marth?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh Marth can also wavebounce shield breaker.

And Kink, lol.

 

[Kink-Link5]

OhYouDontGetit.midi

 

[genkaku]

the only reason this discussion came up is because falcon and peach got buffs, correct?
Will those buffs even marginally affect the marth MU? Not unless you're an idiot that doesn't cover the one more option that they've been given for an easy kill.
Marth can't kill at high percents?
a) it's called marth is actually kind of balanced
and b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m9138477W8

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Well, most people BAirly get things like that.

 

[I R MarF]

the only reason this discussion came up is because falcon and peach got buffs, correct?
Will those buffs even marginally affect the marth MU? Not unless you're an idiot that doesn't cover the one more option that they've been given for an easy kill.

It has nothing to do with the MU. Its about the fact high tiers are getting different treatment from other high tiers.

Marth can't kill at high percents?
a) it's called marth is actually kind of balanced

Ah, I get it, so marth should be the only character in the game thats... balanced? Also, you clearly don't understand why Marth has trouble killing at high percents. Its because all his safe moves scale really slowly and his unsafe/strong ones can't be combo'd into anymore so they are dangerous to use if there is a chance they might miss.

Most of the cast (and newly buffed characters) can throw out aerials or smash attacks that hit before frame 8 to score their high percent kills and are typically safe and hard to punish. Marth cannot. Is it balance when the majority of the cast has this safe guard when one character doesn't have it?

and b) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m9138477W8

Subjective, irrelevant example. That is the skill of a player and lack of skill of another, not a character. The title of the video makes me wonder how you even began to think it proved something.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Marth is a far better character than Captain Falcon. He's arguably more deserving of a top tier slot than Jiggs.

Nothing any character can be given will really ever be as stupid as Marth's fair and Nair. He doesn't have to kill when he can just outplay the majority of the cast with even decent spacing.

Subjective, irrelevant example. That is the skill of a player and lack of skill of another, not a character. The title of the video makes me wonder how you even began to think it proved something.

>Debunk the only person to provide support for his stance
>Don't provide support for your own stance

:V

 

[Kink-Link5]

Like, it just seems that you're ignoring the underlying principles in Marth's design. It's almost identical to saying Metaknight is bad because he lacks killing power.

 

[genkaku]

Haha, lighten up. Unlike you I'm not trying to "win" an arguement by refuting everything that my "opponent" says. I'm just making some observations from my perspective. The video is kind of cool and makes a suggestion, that's all.
In my opinion: marth has weaknesses that are not game-breaking. Despite these well-known weaknesses he's still been high-tier in the melee setting forever. When I play the marth matchup I am really really uncomfortable at low percents as compared to high percents because I know that I can die at 15% easier than at 160%. I'm sorry if you disagree, but this seems like a fair trade to me given marth's strengths.
The focus of discussion then souldn't be "marth isn't good enough" but "I'm afraid that other characters will be better."
To some degree this is valid.
To another it is not.
Peach and Falcon buffs are not that big a deal. Really. They exist, but they don't exactly change much. Claiming ON PRINCIPLE that marth should receive a similar buff is silly. If he needs a buff for a practical reason, that's fine, but the treatment of other characters in his tier shouldn't enter into it, really. I mean, obviously it will make nuances in tier placement and stuff, but in the big picture and in terms of sitting down and defeating the opponent it doesn't mean much at all.
Falcon can sideB the ledge? maybe I should dtilt instead of fsmash. Big Deal.
Marth retains all of the tools that allowed him to "out-tier" most of the cast in melee. Giving other characters more options/tools does not make him worse or room for much concern considering that he still ***** the same amount. The window is just presumably smaller.
This being said, I think that your suggestion for bair is the best that I've heard on the occasion that marth ends up needing to be more **** to compete in the finished project. In addition, if that happens I will be thoroughly impressed with the PM team.

 

[`dazrin]

peach and falcon getting buffs??

thats just not FAIR.

 

[genkaku]

lol, fair
10fairs

 

[GP&B]

Because if every match up was even there wouldn't really be any point to learning more than one character.

People need to stop thinking that perfect balance means 50:50 matchups for everyone. It is one way of looking at it, but like someone mentioned earlier, this is impossible to accomplish without characters being identical.

Good balance is making sure that all characters have a fairly even number of 60:40 and 40:60 matchups with maybe a few 30:70's that can't really be helped. It is of no consequence that all characters are viable if good and bad matchups are even.

The best idea would be to make sure that the bottom tier is at least comparable to Link and Samus in SSB64: relatively terrible but still viable.

And I don't get the complaints about Sheik's D-Throw. The fact that it almost single-handedly invalidated half the cast in Melee is what makes the move such bull**** and you know it. I haven't been following the experiments with the throw, but I'm positive they'll find a solid compromise that provides near the same options without being such an utterly stupid move on many characters.

 

[Kink-Link5]

People need to stop thinking that perfect balance means 50:50 matchups for everyone. It is one way of looking at it, but like someone mentioned earlier, this is impossible to accomplish without characters being identical.

Good balance is making sure that all characters have a fairly even number of 60:40 and 40:60 matchups with maybe a few 30:70's that can't really be helped. It is of no consequence that all characters are viable if good and bad matchups are even.

I disagree entirely. There is no good balance in any realistically competitive game. It's a pipe dream to think every character can have even close to evenly distributed good and bad matchups.

The best idea would be to make sure that the bottom tier is at least comparable to Link and Samus in SSB64: relatively terrible but still viable.

That tends to be the design strategy yes. The worst characters seem to be B and C tier, which is perfectly acceptable.

 

[I R MarF]

Marth is a far better character than Captain Falcon. He's arguably more deserving of a top tier slot than Jiggs.

Nothing any character can be given will really ever be as stupid as Marth's fair and Nair. He doesn't have to kill when he can just outplay the majority of the cast with even decent spacing.

You are theory smashing. Yes, if everyone played frame-perfect, range would be the most important aspect of a character and Marth would probably be the best. But this is the real world where both players could appropriately out manuever and punish each other. Marth, despite his great range, plays by these rules. This is why the characters who punish the best are top tier (Fox shine and usmash, Falco shine and dair, Jiggs rest and bair, Shiek fair and grabs) Marth simply doesn't have the tools to respond to mistakes like these characters and what he can do is situational. It isn't an argument that Marth is top or high, Marth is definitely high tier and Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Jiggs are all top; no one else.

However, Marth is very deserving of his high tier position and is a very good character whose main strength is in range, powerful combos at low and mid percents, and edge guarding/getting his opponent in positions to be edge guarded. Fair and Nair isn't the everything that makes him good. You want to give a character something stupid? give them something that comes out really fast, hits really hard, and can punish OoS

And Falcon is great, people just typically go by what happens to him when he gets combo'd and edge guarded. He still has incredible speed and manueverability and hits really hard with the knee.

>Debunk the only person to provide support for his stance
>Don't provide support for your own stance

:V

Why would I have to prove something is subjective... when it is?

 

[jalued]

I disagree entirely. There is no good balance in any realistically competitive game. It's a pipe dream to think every character can have even close to evenly distributed good and bad matchups.




That tends to be the design strategy yes. The worst characters seem to be B and C tier, which is perfectly acceptable.

But removing chaingrabs that can shut down a large majority of the cast (such as pikachu and sheik's dthrow) will help the games balance significantly

 

[Kink-Link5]

Falcon also has terrible OoS options, bad priority, and no good or even decent match up against any of the top tier characters.

Marth's fair and nair being good is not theory smash, it's simple fact.
Marth has a better track record than Falcon.
Marth has better matchups than Falcon
The stagelist favours Marth more than Falcon
Therefore,
Marth is a far better character than Falcon.

Please tell me how any of this is "theory smash," because using a pejorative term without basis just makes your argument look weak.

 

[UltiMario]

Helping specific match-ups =/= Balance.

Ultimately you make characters who rely on chaingrabs as a huge part of their games worse and not making the other characters that have other issues any better- it ultimately makes the balance worse if anything.