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Project M Social Thread

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Archangel

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It's 3-7. You get touched you die, you run away you die, you approach you die, you get knocked off stage you die.

Spacies **** Falcon.

I don't think this is true but I have no data soo....Well, my point still stands. I didn't say the specifics of the mus I just said they were better for your character than mine, which is true. About the Peach Marth mu, I'll take your word for it until I check it out myself. I didn't see that you said specifically. Either way, Marth still has better stages to choose from.
I think spacies are better than Falcon and the rest of the cast. The same could be said for Marth...watch the second set of Mango vs Taj for example. even the first set. The Matches Taj wins are by 1 stock Mango wins by 3 stocks with Falco and in the 2nd set with Fox. Marth has a better chance mainly because he can uthrow **** them if he doesn't get the kill it still becomes the same. Marth is slightly at advantage on FD but if you ban that stage he does about the same as everybody else in S/A/B tier on spacies.

I'm telling you I've been doing this Legacy project for about 2 years now and I've seen more marth footage probably than anyone else. I'm sure there are more Marth's than Falcons by more than 2-1 it's more like 4-1.

As for the Peach MU every since Armada exposed the wholes in Marth's game when he went on a terror streak taking out all Marth legends, Strawhat, Makenshi, and M2K...other players like Vanz and MacD have been doing the same. In fat the 3 of them placed higher than any Marth at the last major event highest placing Marth was 17th far below the highest Peaches and Falcon.

I get your point though and I'm not trying to say that Falcon is Rigged tier. All I'm saying is that since Falcon is buffed and peach is also buffed and EVERYONE else is also buffed alot of what is currently true in relation to Marth in everyone else will not apply in PM. Even down to who has Better MUs
 

ETWIST51294

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If anything, having a bunch of mediocre characters might be better. I know a lot of people that think melee becomes degenerate with the top tiers because they're so stupid.

etwist and spam you guys don't know anything about what you're talking about. Just let it go. It's seriously so far off that it's like reading about african farmers that accidently kill themselves because they don't know how to apply pesticides. It's seriously awful and would be a deterrent to anyone reading this thread that actually understands anything about smash in general. Just...let it go.
lol Umbreon. I'm not even gonna respond.

Old *****

You do know more than me though, so I'll respect the og and act like the scrub you think I am.
 

hotdogturtle

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So now Marth is not top tier, he's not high tier, he's not "good", he's just "mediocre".

Is that really what this thread is coming to?
 

9Kplus1

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edit: is it me or is it like a necessary design mechanic for every character to have some way to fight fox/falco? it's really a struggle to find a character that isn't effective vs them in some way or another.
I'm pretty sure that the P:M cast is "balanced around Fox", or something of that nature.

@Spam - To be fair, Armada hasn't beaten Ether, yet. :troll:
@HDT - Spam is literally the only person in this thread with such a mentality. Just let him whine himself to sleep.

:phone:
 

Archangel

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Um, ok. They didn't. For a while they still had their Brawl fair animations, but now their fairs are exactly Melee.
They may have been returned to normal but they did exist for awhile....why not try giving Marth some small changes. His Dsmash is good but why does it leave you open for 5 years? his upsmash is just...lol and could be made into a decent move without changing too much about him. I'm don't care if he is C or D tier in the end I just think it's unfair to not change anything about him and change everyone else near him. Why wait? Preemptive strikes are the american way afterall :awesome:

@Umbreon I'm really tired of you talking smack like you are so much better than everyone who posts in this thread. stop being a ****head and posing as if you are placing top 10-20-30 at big national/international events and are a god among men in this thread. Feel free to state your opinion without being a condescending prick.
 

Archangel

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I'm pretty sure that the P:M cast is "balanced around Fox", or something of that nature.

@Spam - To be fair, Armada hasn't beaten Ether, yet. :troll:
@HDT - Spam is literally the only person in this thread with such a mentality. Just let him whine himself to sleep.

:phone:
I was talking about a specific time period between 08and09.

I don't think Marth is Mediocre. He's somewhere between the 5-7th best character in the game. Pretty good I think.

AGAIN~ I'm not talking about Melee I'm talking about the Future!(back to the future music plays).
 
D

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@Umbreon I'm really tired of you talking smack like you are so much better than everyone who posts in this thread. stop being a ****head and posing as if you are placing top 10-20-30 at big national/international events and are a god among men in this thread. Feel free to state your opinion without being a condescending prick.
it's an internet forum around a children's video game. if i piss you off just like...go talk a walk or something.

marth really isn't that good in PM, at least the marth I know from ~3-4 weeks ago isn't. he might have the same frame data as he does in melee, but he's still much worse for a lot of other reasons outside of his own character.
 

9Kplus1

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No, we're shooting for somewhere between Melee High and Top tiers, not "balanced around Fox."
Teehee. Well, I was close :awesome:

Thanks for the correction.
They may have been returned to normal but they did exist for awhile....why not try giving Marth some small changes. His Dsmash is good but why does it leave you open for 5 years? his upsmash is just...lol and could be made into a decent move without changing too much about him. I'm don't care if he is C or D tier in the end I just think it's unfair to not change anything about him and change everyone else near him. Why wait? Preemptive strikes are the american way afterall :awesome:
Sooooo... you want Brawl-?

:phone:
 

jalued

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It's 3-7. You get touched you die, you run away you die, you approach you die, you get knocked off stage you die.

Spacies **** Falcon.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Your own personal failures in the matchup leave you making these rash statements.

Ask Hax or cactar or anyone who is comfortable with the fox/falcon MU and they will all tell you that its alot more even than people initially thought, worst case 60-40 fox.

Sure fox can shine spike falcon and waveshine him, but falcon can easily edgeguard fox back, can 0-death him onstage with some good reads and his knee will kill fox rather easily.

I can't take you seriously as a player when you bull**** about MU's like that. Thank god you arnt in the backroom is all I can say.

Get better, moan less
 

Archangel

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it's an internet forum around a children's video game. if i piss you off just like...go talk a walk or something.

marth really isn't that good in PM, at least the marth I know from ~3-4 weeks ago isn't. he might have the same frame data as he does in melee, but he's still much worse for a lot of other reasons outside of his own character.
I'm not mad just checking your chin bro :cool:.

Any specific reason why you would say he's terrible?

@9k..... you aren't really helping the topic.
it's slight buff vs no changes.

Not

MASSIVE OVERPOWERED EVERYTHING TIPPERS AUTOMATICALLY AND MARTH'S SMASHES ARE ALL INVINCIBLE vs no changes.

slight changes and maybe really small buffs aren't going to kill anyone. Since his peers are getting them there is no reason why he should not get at least 1. Falcon's side-b, down-b, up-b are changed for the better. That is 3 for someone who is considered even with marth and has been outplaying him and going forward looks like he'll continue to do so considering all good Marth players switch to Fox/Sheik
 

ETWIST51294

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You have no idea what you are talking about. Your own personal failures in the matchup leave you making these rash statements.

Ask Hax or cactar or anyone who is comfortable with the fox/falcon MU and they will all tell you that its alot more even than people initially thought, worst case 60-40 fox.

Sure fox can shine spike falcon and waveshine him, but falcon can easily edgeguard fox back, can 0-death him onstage with some good reads and his knee will kill fox rather easily.

I can't take you seriously as a player when you bull**** about MU's like that. Thank god you arnt in the backroom is all I can say.

Get better, moan less
I actually like the spacies mu. Johnny and Hax say it's Falcons worse mus. All of the time.

I get ***** by good Fox's, no lie there, I've been destroyed my the cactus before. But I will stand by that it is not even.

edit: I can quote em if you want. Johnny mostly just says if fox plays as homogay as possible the mu is really lopsided.
 

Archangel

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I'm trying to derail the topic because it's really just you whining about Marth not getting any changes.
I'm not whining about anyting I'm just addressing the issue. Marth didn't get any changes and his peers did. As a Marth main I'm not going to be silent about it. Not when I've seen two years of "whining" for every other character come and go through this thread. If you don't like it....well I guess you are going to have to remain very bother and uncomfortable indeed my good sir.
 
D

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Any specific reason why you would say he's terrible?
marth isn't terrible, he's just average. in melee, position is everything. the entirely of top tier play is based around what you can and can't do because of the situation, and the best players leverage position on each other constantly. marth is quite potent at both setting a positional advantage with his superior range and then killing his opponent by removing his options rather than by a high knock-back finishing move (basically marth gimps them).

in brawl, this isn't possible for him to the extent that it's no longer his primary strategy, but a secondary one. marth simply can't edge guard half of the cast in any productive manner from (massively) upgraded recoveries that marth never had to worry about in melee. consider even simple examples like ganondorf, where you guys added a final hit to his up B....that marth can't trade a dtilt with. most of the cast has things like that.

most of the stage control dynamic is also gone. the stages are bigger, or the characters are relatively faster, or the platforms are longer such that things like uptilt/upair don't cover them. consider marth on battlefield vs some of the new stages and you should get the idea. marth can no longer do a single upthrow and expect to have an advantageous position on the opponent. not only that, it seems that a few of the characters were specifically made such that they're immune to stage control. i voiced my opinion concerning ROB some time ago, but squirtle and zelda among others pretty much don't give a **** about being cornered. marth can't pin them, and neither can anyone else. but marth can't pin most characters now anyway. this is simply not the case in melee.

even if he could, his range advantage is gone as well. marth has above average range....but it's not that great or overwhelming like it was in melee. the best you can do with abusing range is attacking air to air with marth's fair, but a smarter opponent can simply choose not to fight marth in the air because, again, he can't pin them. you can just play like a douche by banning FD, running up to marth and shielding, blocking his attack, and hitting him in the lag. if he grabs you, you take a small % because he can't do anything truly potent with it. this is already how jigglypuff beats marth in melee, because marth can't pin that character in that game either. it applies to most characters in PM.

PM is basically the exact same marth frame wise, but without all of his relative advantages that make him so dangerous. once you realize that most of the things marth can do simply aren't threatening, he's pretty easy to walk on. if you don't know how to fight him, yeah i guess he can fsmash you. but don't change the character if you don't know what you're doing.

it's okay that this game plays different and that marth's usual strategies aren't as good in it. i think it's 100% ******** to have characters that are completely immune to the fundamentals of strategic play like zelda, squirtle, etc and it makes them totally bonkers and maybe those characters should be changed. but marth is fine the way he is.
 

`dazrin

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Look.

I'm gonna be straight up with you spam. It seems that you only want marth to be buffed because marth's other A tier buddies got minor "buffs", and it seems that you're jealous that your main is the only one "left out". It's like the kid who saw his friends eating popsicles so he went home and cried to his mom to buy him popsicles too since his friends have them.
It really doesn't seem like you are arguing for buffs because he needs them, but rather because some of his buddies got some.It's really scary that you would promote this kind of thinking and call it "balance".

Also, just because one or two moves on your character is generally worse than the rest does not mean the character overall needs changes. Look at falco; his uair and fair are not super amazing moves in comparison to his dair and bair, but does this mean the the PMBR should change them so they're better? No. It really doesn't.

Marth doesn't need to be god tier in project:m and the PMBR won't change a character just because their tier placement may/may not be different than their tier placement in melee. Regardless of whether or not marth places decently in the PM tier list (which is honestly way too early to be thinking about right now) he will still be a viable, solid character with all the same strengths and weaknesses from melee. Yes there will be a bigger cast, and some new characters may even dominate marth in some MUs, oh the horror! But he will still be marth and he will still be viable in competitive play regardless of where you think he will be on the PM:tierlist.

And besides, everyone agrees- Marth is a GOOD CHARACTER. So stop complaining that your dsmash has 8 frames of lag or whatever.
 

metroid1117

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Sooo... Demo 2 coming out this month? (There is NOTHING left to talk about other than trash talk and crappy MU theorycraft MU discussion)
Speaking of releases, does the PM:BR ever plan on releasing frame data once the project is finished? I'm not necessarily asking about hitbox data (although that would be a godsend), but about character frame data and specifics like tech animations, frame windows for DACUS, soonest frame of action after footstooling, etc.
 

slimpyman

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marth has good range and nice range on his aerials. his movement speed isnt any slouch either. his tilts are nice. f smash is ****. recovery is pretty ****ing good. and dont forget his dair. i wouldnt touch him... ooo yeah and his uthrow chains fast fallers.
 

Archangel

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I'm gonna be straight up with you spam. blah.....
ok I appreciate you being straight up with me but you are speaking like you didn't read my concerns or Ubreon's entire post. Nothing but watching streams with people attempting to play DDD made me realize that some people may be genius programmers and what not but they really don't know much about the game. Umbreon maybe be a condescending prick at times but he knows more than the bulk of players on this site about the fundamentals of competitive gameplay in melee. What he says about Marth is not unlike the epic message I sent to Jalued in Private. Marth has no advantage over anyone anymore. Not range, grab range..nothing he's not the best at anything not the second best at anything. Doesn't mean he has to be by any means.....people make too big of a deal of Marth's chaingrabs on Spacies on FD. ****ing Luigi and DK can do it too. Fox and Falco are like 1% of Project Melee population and you can't upthrow them to death on most stages do to platform safety and the longer platforms as Umbreon stated earlier make it so that your sword doesn't cover them completely....Maybe you should just give Marth a longer sword and keep him the same :troll:

Seriously though..I just think it makes more sense to give him a small change or 2 than to leave him as is for the simple reason of just not wanting him to change. Even if it's just a buff to his Bair so he has an aerial that actually kills someone. I mean you can't Dthrow bair anybody with Marth unless they DI/jump into it but it's better than nothing. even if you give him Roy's Side-B it won't make him suddenly capable of winning a national again but it's better than nothing. Nobody who's made a statement about Marth is suggesting his changes are even as significant as Ganon's Doc/Mario hybrid, Zelda...etc. it can be so simple you BAIRly notice it. :cool:
 

Bones0

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I read over the first post and didn't see anything, but is there a set (or rough) date for when the second demo is coming out? Also, is playing online possible (if so, how bad is the lag)?

Sonic had better be in... lol :D
 

Kink-Link5

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Demo 2 slotted for a late march/early April release.

Sonic may not be in due to some incubator stuff still being tested, so don't get your hopes up for him. He still might be, but I'm just saying, don't set yourself up for disappointment.
 

Jiangjunizzy

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when it comes to conceptualizing new characters that didn't have an existing or relevant playstyle in melee, the PMBR has two main approaches.

the first approach is based upon making the character place well in tourneys. this involves giving them moves, combos, setups, finishing reliability and overall frame data that matches or exceeds melee top tiers. the goal of this is to basically compare and contrast your target character with fox and other good characters and apply these stats to your character. this is effective and convenient because one can simply compare numbers, kill percents, dodge data, etc and arrive to a better set of frame data and apply said values. i will dub this the "world of warcraft expansion" approach, or +100 to all stats.

the second is to take a more thematic and aesthetic approach to a character's moveset. one takes in to account the personality, niche, and target playstyle of the character and attempt to make sense of this in the melee environment. one considers the character's personality with every move and makes sure it fits within their established mantra. this approach is difficult to finalize because many of these things are subjective; different people have different ideas and opinions of what kind of personality each character has. however, the end result would be a character that stands out amongst the crowd. this approach doesn't address whether or not this character is going to place well in tourneys, though. i'd like to think of this as a "canonized" moveset.

both have been used sporadically amongst different characters with varying degrees.

i personally dislike the first as a main approach to designing a character, it's soulless and serves no purpose other than to ensure more victories for said character. is winning more really what Project M is about? that kind of mindset can be saved for the RPGs and item farming to max out their stats. i believe shooting for a fun (yes, i said fun) and unique character should be the forefront of any proposed character design, because once a character has a well conceived playstyle in place, it's easier to address the flaws of said character.
 

Kink-Link5

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I doubt it. I am in no way associated with the PMBR though, and you won't get an answer from them.


I am wholly about aesthetic character design and nearly every one of my suggestions has been about this.


Spam hates me because I use Ice Climbers and he doesn't like to be D-smashed.
 

9Kplus1

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Also, is playing online possible (if so, how bad is the lag)?

Sonic had better be in... lol :D
iirc, the light press code is responsible for many glitches, including not being able to efficiently play online.

Also, it's good to know that Sonic is getting more popularity. I only played like two at Shell Shocked lol

:phone:
 

Archangel

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when it comes to conceptualizing new characters that didn't have an existing or relevant playstyle in melee, the PMBR has two main approaches.

the first approach is based upon making the character place well in tourneys. this involves giving them moves, combos, setups, finishing reliability and overall frame data that matches or exceeds melee top tiers. the goal of this is to basically compare and contrast your target character with fox and other good characters and apply these stats to your character. this is effective and convenient because one can simply compare numbers, kill percents, dodge data, etc and arrive to a better set of frame data and apply said values. i will dub this the "world of warcraft expansion" approach, or +100 to all stats.

the second is to take a more thematic and aesthetic approach to a character's moveset. one takes in to account the personality, niche, and target playstyle of the character and attempt to make sense of this in the melee environment. one considers the character's personality with every move and makes sure it fits within their established mantra. this approach is difficult to finalize because many of these things are subjective; different people have different ideas and opinions of what kind of personality each character has. however, the end result would be a character that stands out amongst the crowd. this approach doesn't address whether or not this character is going to place well in tourneys, though. i'd like to think of this as a "canonized" moveset.

both have been used sporadically amongst different characters with varying degrees.

i personally dislike the first as a main approach to designing a character, it's soulless and serves no purpose other than to ensure more victories for said character. is winning more really what Project M is about? that kind of mindset can be saved for the RPGs and item farming to max out their stats. i believe shooting for a fun (yes, i said fun) and unique character should be the forefront of any proposed character design, because once a character has a well conceived playstyle in place, it's easier to address the flaws of said character.
Hmmm This is a good post. Possibly the first time we have 100% agreed. I think it's turning out good so far(fingers crossed). I think some things like electric shock on Snake's upB for example are not bad ideas but they seem to be just convenient and.....idk strange when taking metal gear into account. I do think the times approach 1 fits the most is when thinking of characters that are clone-ish. Making Wolf like the spacies for example. Other times I think it gives you more of a chance to be original and truly creative instead of just giving everyone a Sex kick. There are like 19 sex kick characters in melee....

as for marth ultimately I won't really be too sad since i'm likely switching to Pit when this game is released anyway. I just think it's somewhat unprofessional to pass him by...it makes the changes to his peers seem random. like a rich kid shopping for a car or something. Just pick this one and change him, and then skipping others seems...idk...just a weird choice is all.

Spam hates me because I use Ice Climbers and he doesn't like to be D-smashed.
I could give 2****s or a 1**** about IC's Dsmash it's the wobbling I don't like. It's like getting molested as a child. You know it's happening and you want to scream and cry for help or fight back...but there is nothing you can do so you just sit there and take it...and the psychological damage that goes along with it. It truely is **** and shouldn't be allowed.
 

Bones0

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when it comes to conceptualizing new characters that didn't have an existing or relevant playstyle in melee, the PMBR has two main approaches.

the first approach is based upon making the character place well in tourneys. this involves giving them moves, combos, setups, finishing reliability and overall frame data that matches or exceeds melee top tiers. the goal of this is to basically compare and contrast your target character with fox and other good characters and apply these stats to your character. this is effective and convenient because one can simply compare numbers, kill percents, dodge data, etc and arrive to a better set of frame data and apply said values. i will dub this the "world of warcraft expansion" approach, or +100 to all stats.

the second is to take a more thematic and aesthetic approach to a character's moveset. one takes in to account the personality, niche, and target playstyle of the character and attempt to make sense of this in the melee environment. one considers the character's personality with every move and makes sure it fits within their established mantra. this approach is difficult to finalize because many of these things are subjective; different people have different ideas and opinions of what kind of personality each character has. however, the end result would be a character that stands out amongst the crowd. this approach doesn't address whether or not this character is going to place well in tourneys, though. i'd like to think of this as a "canonized" moveset.

both have been used sporadically amongst different characters with varying degrees.

i personally dislike the first as a main approach to designing a character, it's soulless and serves no purpose other than to ensure more victories for said character. is winning more really what Project M is about? that kind of mindset can be saved for the RPGs and item farming to max out their stats. i believe shooting for a fun (yes, i said fun) and unique character should be the forefront of any proposed character design, because once a character has a well conceived playstyle in place, it's easier to address the flaws of said character.
I agree with this, especially because it seems way easier to take a bad character that feels natural and simply buff their moves (less startup, less cool down, more/less knockback, etc.) than it is to take a good character with an unnatural moveset and play style and make it feel right.
 

Archangel

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well I hate to call people out, especially people I am cool with but...JC...you are a pretty big fan of R.O.B. and R.O.B. is very good and at times boarders on the OP side. I don't think this is a coincidence at all....

sorry......and I hope this doesn't change the way you feel about me because you know I love you JC(no homo)

Maybe homo
 

Bones0

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iirc, the light press code is responsible for many glitches, including not being able to efficiently play online.

Also, it's good to know that Sonic is getting more popularity. I only played like two at Shell Shocked lol

:phone:
That's a shame. I'm guessing you were the DDD that whooped me at Shell Shocked? lol I have been playing Sonic since I downloaded the first demo, but I don't really have anyone to play against so my play with him is still REALLY underdeveloped. I wish I could play online cause I know I would come up with a bunch of neat stuff. That's honestly why I think it's hilarious how people are arguing about balance issues when there's no way people have innovated enough for the game to plateau at all. I figured people would be arguing balance, but the vehemence with which people are arguing is hilarious because it is based on such limited experience.

This is basically why I agree with Umbreon that the Melee top tiers shouldn't be touched at all.
 
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