Project M Social Thread

[Kink-Link5]

Helping specific match-ups =/= Balance.

Ultimately you make characters who rely on chaingrabs as a huge part of their games worse and not making the other characters that have other issues any better- it ultimately makes the balance worse if anything.

Thank you for the support. It's difficult to have an intellectual argument when you're the only one on a side :V

 

[MaxThunder]

OhYouDontGetit.midi

this doesn't really make much sense... just saying...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Thank you for your input. I'll be sure to make my jokes more sensical and dry.

 

[iLink]

Holy **** if you think Marth actually needs buffs lol

Peach and CF got pretty insignificant and situational buffs. Marth is already a better character then both of them.

 

[jalued]

Holy **** if you think Marth actually needs buffs lol

Peach and CF got pretty insignificant and situational buffs. Marth is already a better character then both of them.

if down the line, the metagame evolves so that marth is out in the cold, then we can talk about balance changes for him. Trying to "balance" him based on theorycrafting this early into the development will only lead to future problems

 

[Archangel]

Marth. aka kills my character at like 80 while I struggle to kill him.

G&W Not having a shield in melee is the Main cause for him being *****, that and not being able to L-cancel ****. He's got L-cancels and a Shield. He should be able to win alot of aerial trades considering the nature of his moves compared to Marth. I think it's his second worst MU next to Sheik. Still I think G&W will be overall better at the MU in Project M.

TBH, Marth will lose some appeal in P:M because most characters have better recovery, and the fact that they can grab the ledge with their backs. It doesn't make him a bad character, but certainly makes him weaker at the edgeguarding game, which was basically Marth's game.

Exactly! The Ken edgeguard won't really help him much. Not to mention the matter of controlling the stage against a class equipped to deal with S-tiers...not sure SH double Fair will save you against anyone who's skill level is past that of a mediocre player.

Like, it just seems that you're ignoring the underlying principles in Marth's design. It's almost identical to saying Metaknight is bad because he lacks killing power.

Metaknight's design is not really the same as Marth's. I mean he has a sword and a cape but aside from that they aren't really the same. He is more comparable to Pikachu in terms of style. Pika who lacks power but has speed and can gimp even floaty light characters.

Falcon also has terrible OoS options, bad priority, and no good or even decent match up against any of the top tier characters.

Marth's fair and nair being good is not theory smash, it's simple fact.
Marth has a better track record than Falcon.
Marth has better matchups than Falcon
The stagelist favours Marth more than Falcon
Therefore,
Marth is a far better character than Falcon.

Please tell me how any of this is "theory smash," because using a pejorative term without basis just makes your argument look weak.

Not sure what Falcon players you are talking about? Do you know what Hax/S2J will do with P:M Marth once they get their hands on him? Right now the only bad MU Falcon has is against top tiers is Puff who can escape his Dthrow knee at high %.

Marth's Fair and Nair are good depending on the characters he's playing and how good they are with DI. Fox for example can Upsmash Marth's Nair right out of the sky.

The better track record is not a point because it is based on out dated metagame combined with outdated playstyles and simply 1 player being better before everyone else figured out how to play their character. To be frank....Ken in his prime(06-07) couldn't beat the best Fox, Falco, Puff, Sheik, Peach, Samus.....etc right now(012).

In the past 3 years Falcons have been slowly but surely out placing Marth in tournament. You can point to M2K if you want but we all know he Sheik/Foxes his way to the top and only occasionally uses Marth for fans sake. In fact it's becoming a joke now that the best Marth among us will be determined by who has the best Sheik/Fox secondary....

Marth may only have 2 MU's that are better than Falcons. Aside from that they are relatively identical in terms of MU's. Marth is only 50-50 with Spacies because he can Upthrow them on FD and he can edge guard them safer than most. Aside from that they pretty much share the same MU's except Marth does slightly better against some lower tiers than Falcon does.

As for the stage list being more in Marth's favor...Falcon's only terrible stage is FoD which can be banned except for in finals(Bo5 no bans). As someone who plays both pretty often I can assure you Falcon can combo on any other stage just the same. In fact I'd say considering weight "Marth's story" might even favor Falcon in that MU specifically. Marth dies like a ***** on his own stage. FD is more or less even because...well Falcon can *** you just as easily and neither of you have Platform relief from combos.

all in all...you proved about as much as he did with your reply.

Helping specific match-ups =/= Balance.

Ultimately you make characters who rely on chaingrabs as a huge part of their games worse and not making the other characters that have other issues any better- it ultimately makes the balance worse if anything.

I agree completely if you are talking about sheik.If about Marth...well...Marth only has Chain grabs on 2 and 1/2 characters in melee though. I say half because you have to put some % on Falcon before it'll work.

 

[I R MarF]

Falcon also has terrible OoS options, bad priority, and no good or even decent match up against any of the top tier characters.

Marth's fair and nair being good is not theory smash, it's simple fact.
Marth has a better track record than Falcon.
Marth has better matchups than Falcon
The stagelist favours Marth more than Falcon
Therefore,
Marth is a far better character than Falcon.

Please tell me how any of this is "theory smash," because using a pejorative term without basis just makes your argument look weak.

Marth's fair and nair are really good. You saying you could outplay anyone with those moves with decent spacing/ they are the most stupid things you could give a character is theory smash.

And all I said is that Falcon is a great character, you seem to be trying to prove that Marth is better/Falcon cant compete. Why, exactly? Is it to show that Falcon was deserving of his recovery buff? In any case, I don't think the difference between Marth and Falcon would be as huge as you make them out to be (its probably marginal at most), otherwise the P:M team probably would have considered a more helpful buff. Plus he still competes in competitive play really well.

 

[Archangel]

As for Marth needing a light buff to his more useless and lagless moves I mean.. Spacies who rule the game got a slight buff to their fair....explain that one then?

Marth use to have a range advantage over the whole viable cast(IN MELEE) that won't exist(IN PROJECT MELEE). He dominated the Grab game with grab range(IN MELEE!) that won't be the case(IN PROJECT MELEE).

The Bair suggestion a few pages ago was great but I don't believe making his Dsmash have less end lag could hurt to much. Not to mention giving him roy's side-B I mean considering things like Falcon kick and Side-b were made safer...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Metaknight is nothing like Marth what the hell are you talking about. I never compared the two characters' designs.

I'll make a different analogy.

"Falco is not super duper good because he has a bad recovery"

 

[Rhubarbo]

Hey guys, I haven't played Project M in quite a while. My last experience with the game was at a friend's house around one year ago, and unbeknownst to me until recently, he happened to have a version of the game that shall not be mentioned. Suffice to say, it must be really out dated by now. Since I don't want to sift through hundreds of pages of forum banter to dig up the information I want, could someone please give me a brief overview of the project as it stands right now? What are the major universal changes since one year ago, what major changes have been done to some characters, how are the stages shaping up? You don't need to go too in depth for me, but a nice summary would be really appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance and best of luck to the project.

-Rhubarbo

 

[Ace55]

People really shouldn't base their opinion of Marth on the most recent tier list made in the omg Jiggs is broken era. Marth has dominated in a way that Falcon and Peach haven't, it's as simple as that. He's not doing that now sure but does anybody see Falcon/Peach being tied for best in the game anytime soon?

Will he be worse in P:M? Obviously if you buff the rest of the cast to around his level he's gonna be worse. All the top and probably the high tiers will be worse comparatively.

Marth is an extremely solid character and should only be buffed if he turns out to be unviable (during the balancing period).

 

[I R MarF]

@Ace, Falcon and Peach are definitely improving. There were more high placing Peaches than Marths at Apex for instance

I just realized how everyone gets angry at the suggestion of buffing Marth yet there didn't seem to be any backlash in regards to buffing C. Falcon and Peach.

Why?

 

[Ace55]

I just realized how everyone gets angry at the suggestion of buffing Marth yet there didn't seem to be any backlash in regards to buffing C. Falcon and Peach.

Why?

See above.

 

[I R MarF]

See my edited post haha

 

[genkaku]

would a dev please get in here and shut us up :V

 

[UltiMario]

Doesn't Peach have problems in regards to Brawl's hardcoding that makes her worse?

These buffs just make up for that, don't they?

 

[standardtoaster]

would a dev please get in here and shut us up

Okay. Enough bickering. :V

 

[I R MarF]

I think it was turnips not bouncing off shields or something like that.

Opponents not being able to grab her turnips OoS... big loss to her game for sure

 

[Comeback Kid]

This whole Marth argument is dumb for one reason: with the exception of Falcon's recovery getting better, any other buff I have heard of for Peach and Falcon are simply brawl techs that carried over. Just like crawling or wall cling for Sheik.

Marth didn't get any new techs worth mentioning in brawl and he is a solid character with no real gaps in his gameplay. Hence, no buffs until proven otherwise.

 

[MaxThunder]

the only thing i'm gonna say on the matter of marth getting buffs is...

well it might turn out he's gonna have some trouble... no more like he's gonna have some trouble with some buffed characters... and he might need some buffs... but i'd just wait with the theorycrafting and so on until after the next demo has been tested enough... really...

 

[Mattnumbers]

People need to stop thinking that perfect balance means 50:50 matchups for everyone. It is one way of looking at it, but like someone mentioned earlier, this is impossible to accomplish without characters being identical.

Good balance is making sure that all characters have a fairly even number of 60:40 and 40:60 matchups with maybe a few 30:70's that can't really be helped. It is of no consequence that all characters are viable if good and bad matchups are even.

This. And no it isn't a pipe dream, that's ridiculously pessimistic. Matchups worse than 30/70 are pretty much only existent if one of the characters is awful or the other character has a completely broken character specific strategy, and 30/70 matchups generally only exist among two good characters if one of their basic designs ends up countering the others.

 

[Vigilante]

I'm probably having a stream with my best friend tomorrow. he's nto really all that good but you'll get to see Pikachu, lol.

 

[UltiMario]

I think it was turnips not bouncing off shields or something like that.

Opponents not being able to grab her turnips OoS... big loss to her game for sure

Pretty sure her double jump is worse because of Brawl hardcoding.

 

[I R MarF]

Another thing that kind of worries me is the P:M team seems kind of afraid to give the revamped characters a bad move or a move that doesn't compliment their move set... or even a bad recovery.

I can only speculate, but it seems to me that a newly buffed/revamped characters would NEVER be like Sheik and Jiggs with a useless special move... or like Fox and Falco with useless fairs. Of course, in the case of the four characters I mentioned, the rest of their moves are so good that they don't even need those useless attacks to be changed.

Marth is similar in the sense he has a couple of useless attacks (usmash and dsmash) which are over powered by his good moves, however, these potential holes in his gameplay go unnoticed since his available tactics are so effective against the weaknesses of inferior characters (like recovery) and fast fallers. But this means his effectiveness as a character may be relative to this kind of enviroment.

I kind of have a weird feeling Marth will have a difficult time in P:M.

 

[foshio]

Hehehe... 2013 is the age of using fox's fair properly!
Also marth people... just because marth mains sucked at apex doesnt mean marth is a terrible character! Cmon everyone knows he's amazing, he'll do very well in project M.

 

[MaxThunder]

@i r marf:marth's up-smash and down-smash are surprisingly good if used right imo...

 

[Archangel]

I'll make a different analogy.

"Falco is not super duper good because he has a bad recovery"

Falco's only weakness is that he has bad recovery but he can even mix up his bad recovery. You can Side-b high, at someone, at the ledge. You can upB sweet spot from high or low, you an up-b slightly to high avoid a fsmash for and then grab ledge. Also you can ledge-tech side-b before most characters can hit you.

People really shouldn't base their opinion of Marth on the most recent tier list made in the omg Jiggs is broken era. Marth ha

How can you say don't pay attention to the jiggs is broken era when all of your support for Marth not getting anything is from the Marth is broken era which is by FAR the more outdated era of the two.

as for Marth's Upsmash....I think a combination of his and Roy's Upsmash would bu hilarious. With like a dark shadow effect...that would be a good addition without too much change.

So far you can't argue against any marth changes unless you are willing to remove buffs from his peers and superiors.

 

[I R MarF]

@i r marf:marth's up-smash and down-smash are surprisingly good if used right imo...

Usmash is extremely situational, and if you were able to do one, it would have been better to just do an fsmash (comes out 3 frames earlier and is a much better kill move) or utilt (comes out in half the frames and has significantly shorter endlag while still being a good kill move) and dsmash is only good if you body hit so you can send them out, but you can recreate the same effect if you body hit utilt which is only 1 frame slower and you can position youself better afterwards because dsmash actually takes a whole second to complete.

usmash and dsmash are pretty much fails in Marth's moveset. A lot of people try to pass dsmash as a good move because its frame 5, but TBH, its knockback isn't even that good, and Marth can't do anything after due to lag. A much better uption is reverse up-b. At least you accomplished something with hitting with it.

 

[9Kplus1]

We're still talking about buffing Marth? Could we talk about something, you know, worthwhile, like how badass Yanmega is? He's a ****ing dragonfly that can hurl boulders. Personally, I think that he should replace Nana.

Oh and btw, if anyone has been following P:M for ages and hasn't been posting in this thread, feel free to do so whenever Spam makes his gospel-esque posts.

edit: Just four more months and MD gets to play with Vig again. The hype train starts now!

edit 2: Marth's Dsmash hits on frame ****ing 5. It's useful for hitting spacies that get into Marth's range, as well as tech chasing, in some cases. His Usmash hits through platforms that Fsmash doesn't and lasts for quite a bit of time, meaning that it can be used to punish spotdodges and rolls. That said, you obviously haven't seen cmart use Marth, as he manages to bull****-combo Usmash into Fsmash

 

[MaxThunder]

Usmash is extremely situational, and if you were able to do one, it would have been better to just do an fsmash (comes out 3 frames earlier and is a much better kill move) or utilt (comes out in half the frames and has significantly shorter endlag while still being a good kill move) and dsmash is only good if you body hit so you can send them out, but you can recreate the same effect if you body hit utilt which is only 1 frame slower and you can position youself better afterwards because dsmash actually takes a whole second to complete.

usmash and dsmash are pretty much fails in Marth's moveset. A lot of people try to pass dsmash as a good move because its frame 5, but TBH, its knockback isn't even that good, and Marth can't do anything after due to lag. A much better uption is reverse up-b. At least you accomplished something with hitting with it.

i'm not that sure in how to apply d-smash yet... but u-smash beats out a lot of moves and the hitboxes on his feet are hilarious... so if timed right it's reall good for catching people off guard... also it combos into tippers as high %...

really situational, but still...

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Give Marth a metal box on one of his taunts and make his metal texture Roy. There, now we have Roy and a sort-of buff for Marth that works like a double-edged sword (no pun intended). Problem solved.

 

[MaxThunder]

^^lol...

and btw... if you still can up-smash out of dash like in brawl... then it's a lot easier to actually use u-smash for tech-chasing and stuff...

 

[ETWIST51294]

Falcon also has terrible OoS options, bad priority, and no good or even decent match up against any of the top tier characters.

Marth's fair and nair being good is not theory smash, it's simple fact.
Marth has a better track record than Falcon.
Marth has better matchups than Falcon
The stagelist favours Marth more than Falcon
Therefore,
Marth is a far better character than Falcon.

Please tell me how any of this is "theory smash," because using a pejorative term without basis just makes your argument look weak.

Falcon's OoS options aren't that bad, his priority sucks but his nair makes up for that, and he does decent against Marth (if you consider him top tier).

As for the other stuff you listed, it's all completely true. Marth is much better than Falcon. Doesn't matter though because no one plays Marth.

Not sure what Falcon players you are talking about? Do you know what Hax/S2J will do with P:M Marth once they get their hands on him? Right now the only bad MU Falcon has is against top tiers is Puff who can escape his Dthrow knee at high %.

This here alone proves you know NOTHING about Falcon OR the falcon players. Falcons only bad mu is PUFF??????
ARE YOU SERIOUS???

Fox Falcon is 3-7
Falco Falcon is 3-7
Sheik Falcon is 4-6
Puff Falcon is 4-6

Don't believe me? S2J has said MULTIPLE times that Fox is Falcons worse mu. He likes the Falco mu but it's still very, very hard against the right players.

In the past 3 years Falcons have been slowly but surely out placing Marth in tournament. You can point to M2K if you want but we all know he Sheik/Foxes his way to the top and only occasionally uses Marth for fans sake. In fact it's becoming a joke now that the best Marth among us will be determined by who has the best Sheik/Fox secondary....

That's because there are 53803205748438 Falcon players and 7 Marth players.

Marth may only have 2 MU's that are better than Falcons. Aside from that they are relatively identical in terms of MU's. Marth is only 50-50 with Spacies because he can Upthrow them on FD and he can edge guard them safer than most. Aside from that they pretty much share the same MU's except Marth does slightly better against some lower tiers than Falcon does.

Marth has better mus against...

Falco
Fox
Puff
ICs
and Peach.

That's 5, not 2.

And no, spacies **** Falcon on a completely different level than Marth. Learn your **** son your spittin false facts about my character.

As for the stage list being more in Marth's favor...Falcon's only terrible stage is FoD which can be banned except for in finals(Bo5 no bans). As someone who plays both pretty often I can assure you Falcon can combo on any other stage just the same. In fact I'd say considering weight "Marth's story" might even favor Falcon in that MU specifically. Marth dies like a ***** on his own stage. FD is more or less even because...well Falcon can *** you just as easily and neither of you have Platform relief from combos.

Again, you're wrong.. god man, please read over the Falcon boards from time to time.

Falcon's bad on FD. It hinders his movement game. A lot of Falcon players recently have said they've been banning that instead of FoD. YS is mu dependent. BF is okay.. DL64 is mu dependent. DL64 and YS are def his best though.

Marth on the other hand only sucks on DL64. He's pretty good on all other neutrals.

 

[9Kplus1]

Destruction? Destruction.

 

[genkaku]

 

[Deleted member]

falcon and peach were already better characters than marth is in PM. marth really isn't that good. but he doesn't need to be changed either. it's okay to have a mediocre character.

leave marth, peach, and falcon alone. seriously. do nothing.

edit: is it me or is it like a necessary design mechanic for every character to have some way to fight fox/falco? it's really a struggle to find a character that isn't effective vs them in some way or another.

 

[Archangel]

Doesn't matter though because no one plays Marth.

This here alone proves you know NOTHING about Falcon OR the falcon players. Falcons only bad mu is PUFF??????
ARE YOU SERIOUS???

Fox Falcon is 3-7
Falco Falcon is 3-7
Sheik Falcon is 4-6
Puff Falcon is 4-6

how in the hell is Falcon vs Fox/falco 3-7? Now way the match-up is as tough as Sheik vs Young Link...Unless you are talking bout perfect gameplay there is no way this could be the case. 4-6 is possible or probable but then again I already said Falcon vs Spacies is harder for Falcon

there are 53803205748438 Falcon players and 7 Marth players.

Completely incorrect. you must be living in the Marth is dead era somehow. In fact I'd say the Marth to Falcon ratio is at least 2-1 in most regions.

Marth has better mus against...

Falco
Fox
Puff
ICs
and Peach.

That's 5, not 2.

Again not sure you what you are talking about. Majority of Marth mains feel Marth vs Puff is 55-45 puff or 50-50. Peach is being re-evaluated considering that Peach players have finally learned to exploit Marth's wholes...the MU is gravitating to 50-50 which is basically where Falcon vs Peach is and pretty much everyone in A tier vs A tier. As for Marth vs IC's it depends on the rules around wobbling mainly. Assuming the IC is good they know how to wobble and if wobbling is legal then Marth vs IC's is about the same. With wobbling banned Marth doesn't have to fear Chain grabs nearly as much so he has an advantage in that MU...but honestly I forgot about IC's completely considering there are only like...4 of them.

And no, spacies **** Falcon on a completely different level than Marth.
Falcon's bad on FD. It hinders his movement game. A lot of Falcon players recently have said they've been banning that instead of FoD. YS is mu dependent. BF is okay.. DL64 is mu dependent. DL64 and YS are def his best though.

Marth on the other hand only sucks on DL64. He's pretty good on all other neutrals.

If the Marth is on the same level of as Fox/Falco it's about even. Problem being spacies peak higher than everyone so eventually Fox/Falco becomes just as difficult but for Marth. AGAIN I already said that Marth has better MU's against spacies.

Falcon being bad on FD depends on the MU. I said specifically the MU vs Marth he has a good chance to combo you across the stage on FD and you have the same chance on him. It become UMVC3 in a way...even do to bull**** on both sides lol.

As for the statement you made about marth it has to do with who he is playing but he generally does do terrible on DL64 considering it only enhances his weakness in terms of guaranteed at high%. Marth vs Samus and peach can last up to 2 years on that stage. Marth dominates most of the cast on YS but he is a lightweight. Good Ganon, Falco, Fox, and heavy hitters like DK/Bowser can troll Marth on that stage but he is still pretty good on it. FoD is probably Marth's best stage do to a unknown/unused trick with his Bthrow onto the platforms. BF, ok because you are marth and you can fsmash at the edge. aside from that Marth is just as troll-able when he's recovering so it's...ok i guess considering everyone gets the same advantage from the difference on the ledge. FD Marth is very good on it against spacies and heavy fast-fallers but after that it actually in a way hinders him do to loss of movement.

@ Umbreon I understand where you are coming from but at the same time **** you. What I mean by that is...if you want to leave some characters alone and not balance them then the question of who comes up. And there are people who would rather destroy the project entirely than see there character become **** next to others.(go back and read the pages where links were spamming this thread).

as for leaving peach,falcon, marth alone. I would agree except peach, falcon, fox, falco..have all got buffs even if it's just the changing of a useless move to a useful one it still is a buff. To have such buffs and then say oh no character x should be just fine don't mess with him. Is bias and unFair. Either change nobody for the better or change everyone for the better. If you aren't changing anyone than what is the point of this project?

Again Marth is not bad and the slight changes that have been suggested will in no way break the character. In fact it's possible that even if you implement all the reasonable suggestions that have been suggested he still will end up C-tier.



Also the subject of weather or not Marth should get a slight buff(nobody is saying give him a ****ing shine, invincible moves or a ****ing projectle). it is a reasonable discussion and is one of the only discussions we haven't had yet so I think it should be allowed. Out of all this we might get something good eventually.

 

[ETWIST51294]

how in the hell is Falcon vs Fox/falco 3-7? Now way the match-up is as tough as Sheik vs Young Link...Unless you are talking bout perfect gameplay there is no way this could be the case. 4-6 is possible or probable but then again I already said Falcon vs Spacies is harder for Falcon

It's 3-7. You get touched you die, you run away you die, you approach you die, you get knocked off stage you die.

Spacies **** Falcon.

Completely incorrect. you must be living in the Marth is dead era somehow. In fact I'd say the Marth to Falcon ratio is at least 2-1 in most regions.

I don't think this is true but I have no data soo..

Again not sure you what you are talking about. Majority of Marth mains feel Marth vs Puff is 55-45 puff or 50-50. Peach is being re-evaluated considering that Peach players have finally learned to exploit Marth's wholes...the MU is gravitating to 50-50 which is basically where Falcon vs Peach is and pretty much everyone in A tier vs A tier. As for Marth vs IC's it depends on the rules around wobbling mainly. Assuming the IC is good they know how to wobble and if wobbling is legal then Marth vs IC's is about the same. With wobbling banned Marth doesn't have to fear Chain grabs nearly as much so he has an advantage in that MU...but honestly I forgot about IC's completely considering there are only like...4 of them.

Well, my point still stands. I didn't say the specifics of the mus I just said they were better for your character than mine, which is true. About the Peach Marth mu, I'll take your word for it until I check it out myself.

If the Marth is on the same level of as Fox/Falco it's about even. Problem being spacies peak higher than everyone so eventually Fox/Falco becomes just as difficult but for Marth. AGAIN I already said that Marth has better MU's against spacies.

Falcon being bad on FD depends on the MU. I said specifically the MU vs Marth he has a good chance to combo you across the stage on FD and you have the same chance on him. It become UMVC3 in a way...even do to bull**** on both sides lol.

As for the statement you made about marth it has to do with who he is playing but he generally does do terrible on DL64 considering it only enhances his weakness in terms of guaranteed at high%. Marth vs Samus and peach can last up to 2 years on that stage. Marth dominates most of the cast on YS but he is a lightweight. Good Ganon, Falco, Fox, and heavy hitters like DK/Bowser can troll Marth on that stage but he is still pretty good on it. FoD is probably Marth's best stage do to a unknown/unused trick with his Bthrow onto the platforms. BF, ok because you are marth and you can fsmash at the edge. aside from that Marth is just as troll-able when he's recovering so it's...ok i guess considering everyone gets the same advantage from the difference on the ledge. FD Marth is very good on it against spacies and heavy fast-fallers but after that it actually in a way hinders him do to loss of movement.

I didn't see that you said specifically. Either way, Marth still has better stages to choose from.

So yeah I like the fact that we are talking about potential changes to Marth. It's the newest thing we have talked. The only thing I think we haven't really talked about which is why there is so much discussion on it.

idrc about that I was just making it apparent that a lot of what you said about Falcon wasn't true. I don't want the players here who never really played melee like that seeing that and thinking it's true. False info never helped any situation.

 

[JCaesar]

Lol what is this... I don't even...

Actually, no one has really implemented it yet, but footstool->dair is a legit Marth combo in P:M (automatic sweetspot, and safer and easier to land than a normal dair since you essentially get another jump out of it and can mash the footstool button).

Buff? Yep.

As for Marth needing a light buff to his more useless and lagless moves I mean.. Spacies who rule the game got a slight buff to their fair....explain that one then?

Um, ok. They didn't. For a while they still had their Brawl fair animations, but now their fairs are exactly Melee.

Normally I wouldn't bother responding to your usual ignorant posts, but I don't appreciate you spreading lies about Project M.

falcon and peach were already better characters than marth is in PM. marth really isn't that good. but he doesn't need to be changed either. it's okay to have a mediocre character.

Have you played Marth since his animations were fixed a few weeks ago? He feels much better now.


Anyway, what do you guys think the end result is gonna be if everyone whose character is worse than half the cast demands buffs? I'll give you a hint. The game will never be released.

Being on the bottom half of the tier list doesn't mean you automatically deserve buffs. Someone has to be on the bottom half of the tier list. In fact, about half the characters are going to be there. Remember, viability, not perfect balance. Some people would like to play this game in their lifetimes.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyway, what do you guys think the end result is gonna be if everyone whose character is worse than half the cast demands buffs? I'll give you a hint. The game will never be released.

Being on the bottom half of the tier list doesn't mean you automatically deserve buffs. Someone has to be on the bottom half of the tier list. In fact, about half the characters are going to be there. Remember, viability, not perfect balance. Some people would like to play this game in their lifetimes.

If anything, having a bunch of mediocre characters might be better. I know a lot of people that think melee becomes degenerate with the top tiers because they're so stupid.

etwist and spam you guys don't know anything about what you're talking about. Just let it go. It's seriously so far off that it's like reading about african farmers that accidently kill themselves because they don't know how to apply pesticides. It's seriously awful and would be a deterrent to anyone reading this thread that actually understands anything about smash in general. Just...let it go.