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Project M Social Thread

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LOLI!

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Although some things may be taken out, some greater things may be put in as well. Did you ever stop and think that maybe something would be taking their places, and making them a bit better/harder, and thus being better in that respect?

If this turns out the way I'm envisioning it, it will probably be something that makes me put Melee away for a few months.
 

Sneak8288

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i never said they weren't good techniques....they are, but just not for this project imo

and GPDP, if that's true about "Needless complications" then why was L-canceling added in this project? it's a needless complication isn't it? you know why it was included in this project? because it adds technicality and it makes it Melee. L-canceling might be a stupid needless technique but it belongs in this project.

i know this is Melee 2.0 so it's expected to see some changes.

i'm all for keeping good Brawl character specific moves to help out the low tiers but implementing too many universal aspects of Brawl will just change the way the game is played too much.

i don't wan't "Project Brawlee" :ohwell:
Read my post on the previous page. Its not like its replacing the previous technique because depending on the dash size u can't rarwd to edge guard in every situation. So its more of a situational type thing. Its not like they are handing u an easy and definite way to grab the ledge at all times for every situation. Both are still used and will be used.
 

JCaesar

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yea i guess i wouldn't mind if RAR stayed (*changed my mind)


EDIT: the thing i don't like about this is that....in Melee if you wanted to edgehog someone across the stage you would have to Run> WD fowards> dash dance> WD backwards > edgehog

with RAR you would just hold back to pivot> WD backwards......kinda boring and dumbed down :ohwell:

(it's on the same boat with reverse ledge grabbing)
It gives you another way to edgehog. So what? That's hardly an excuse to remove it when you look at all the other options that RARing gives you.

Needless complication for the sake of needless complication is stupid IMO, especially when it involves getting rid of a technique that adds depth to the game. It does not justify taking away options given to us by the RAR mechanic. RAR is one of the few good things Brawl gave us, and it would be senseless to take it away just because it might make edgehogging slightly easier to do.
This.

Eh, I might be in the minority here, but I honestly have never had that much of a problem with Brawl's aesthetics, other than the camera and the lack of high-% knockback screams, certainly not to the level that a lot of Melee fans and purists who so regularly voice such concerns do. Stages are getting bigger, the camera has been Melee-fied, and I really don't care much for Melee's visual or sound effects other than the aforementioned screams.

I honestly think much of the concern over aesthetics is primarily nostalgia-based. Sometimes there's a legitimate point, such as stage size, but then when we get to things like graphic effects, textures, and even models in a way other than size somehow being superior in Melee? I dunno, I can't bring myself to understand that POV. I'm too engrosed with the mechanics and the general Melee feel being brought back to really ponder upon those things. I would've even been fine if no animations had been changed whatsoever. In fact, I'm not a big supporter for such changes unless they're really necessary (come on, Ganon's old man run was not that bad).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I can't really sympathize. Bringing back Melee's aesthetics are really not that important to me. Bringing back the speed, the tech skill (where it counts and doesn't in turn take away useful, non-broken options introduced in Brawl), and the general feel of Melee is so much more of a priority to me that I hardly even spare a thought to the other stuff.
I mostly agree, though in general, I think Melee animations were much better. I mean, just look at Fox's utilt, bair, and fsmash *hurl* But you're right in that Melee mechanics are far and away more important than Melee aesthetics.
 

Bandit

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So, you wanna play?
not to cut out some hype, because i'm brimming with it right now, but something is still gnawing at me. and i'll explain it...with fruit.

alright, so we got an apple and a mango, their tips sitting at the edge of two 1 foot rulers. we move each fruit to the end of their respective rulers, each tip just reaching the end much the same way they began. each of them went just 1 foot, right?

alright. try to imagine it without the ruler. each fruit still goes 1 foot. someone tells you this. but, which one FELT like it went farther? would you say the apple? because i might.

you know what i mean, guys, right? i hope this is changed. i know i can't be the only one with this problem right now. and i don't know if everything is apples either. but i have a feeling that brawl is mangos.
You don't have the game. You only watch the streams and the videos, and you are complaining about feel of the game.

Why? Nothing you say has any backing at all, and you are coming up with your own fears.

I'll give you a suggestion. Sit back, relax, and look up Maxim's Hot 100 List. Then, your mind will be clear and you won't be sitting around theorycraft-worrying on a forum. Let the developers do what they do and make a judgement when you can get your hands on the game.
 

SonioNineteen

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Will Light Shoulder Press Detection work on any other controllers including Classic Controller Pro ( which I use every time I play Brawl)

I'm not sure how to explain this properly

Will holding the A button next to someone finish the whole standard A ?

EXAMPLE: Someone holds the the A button next to a opponent to do the whole of Mario's Standard A button moves instead of actually pressing it three to times to work to do the whole standard A. Will this still be in Melee 2.0
 

Sterowent

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geez, was my analogy really that cryptic? everyone's assuming i think the gameplay's messed up/going to be messed up. it's the aesthetics, man, the visual stuff. not only do i love to play a match, but i most definitely love to watch one. that's important too.

i guess i'll chill out, but it's hard. when 100% cam codes make it, and stuff...this game is gonna blow up. i think i'm anxious for that moment
 

jalued

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nice videos, i look forward to the games progress.

Can i just say one thing though...

please for the love of god give sheik PAL dthrow! she is so boring in NTSC compared to PAL because of it (i have played and watched both) and i feel it (NTSC dthrow) really adds to her limited appeal and interest
 

GPDP

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i never said they weren't good techniques....they are, but just not for this project imo

and GPDP, if that's true about "Needless complications" then why was L-canceling added in this project? it's a needless complication isn't it? you know why it was included in this project? because it adds technicality and it makes it Melee. L-canceling might be a stupid needless technique but it belongs in this project.

i know this is Melee 2.0 so it's expected to see some changes.

i'm all for keeping good Brawl character specific moves to help out the low tiers BUT implementing too many universal aspects of Brawl will just change the way the game is played too much.

i don't wan't "Project Brawlee" :ohwell:
I anticipated the L-cancel charge, which is why I added the "especially if it involves getting rid of a technique that adds options" part. L-cancel was part of what gave Melee the "Melee feel," and if you look at it from the perspective of it being added onto Brawl rather than ALR being taken out of Brawl+, it's actually an improvement. Sure, at the pro level there's almost no difference or any real depth being added (inb4theresachanceyoullmissandlosethestock), but this "needless complication" doesn't take away options either, which taking away RAR would do, at no real benefit. And as sneak said, RAR WD is fairly situational anyway, so you'll also be seeing the original Melee way of doing things.

In short, we're just theorycrafting here. Neither you or I have the game, so any fear we may have may be unfounded, as sneak, who actually got to play the game, just proved. As long as the game still has the Melee feel and gameplay, I think we can afford some modest changes and additions, such as AGT.
 

monkeyx4

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No character should have a TERRIBLE WD. That's one aspect of Melee that should go, in my opinion. It's a tool that each character should have the option to utilize to it's max. I'm not saying every character should have Luigi status slides, but no character should be denied the opportunity of a decent WD.

As it is, even with a longer WD you sitll have to deal with the same 10frame cooldown, so it's not like WD = instawin, still gotta be mindful of spacing, because you can easily be punished.

Good stuff though.
lol i hope link WD isnt as bad as it is in melee rofl it was like he was on a escalator it was that slow and didnt go far... but it looked flashly(look at the germ) :laugh:

im loving the vids peeps keep it up. can't wait for the beta
 

Rikana

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Shell said he may consider tightening RARing's timing so it isn't as easy. I was also kind stuck thinking whether or not RAR should be taken out because its too easy. Yes, its one of the good things Brawl offers to us but it made bAirs too easy. For example, you're gonna see Wolf players abuse bAir like no tomorrow. I'm not saying its a bad thing; it could be good because it may lead to earlier kills but its not as impressive as Melee. It takes thought in bringing out your bAir. Falco/Fox for example. They can shine, turn around, then short hop to bAir.

Regardless, I wouldn't mind RAR staying in as long as the timing is tightened. Make it super tight so it can't be abused so easily.
 

Plum

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Tightening the timing on RARing wouldn't change how easily to can be abused... It would be used in the EXACT same ways and once you get the timing down it would be like it never changed.
 

crismas

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nice videos, i look forward to the games progress.

Can i just say one thing though...

please for the love of god give sheik PAL dthrow! she is so boring in NTSC compared to PAL because of it (i have played and watched both) and i feel it (NTSC dthrow) really adds to her limited appeal and interest
...I'm confused...

Doesn't PAL dthrow throw your opponent like this <<<<<<<<<<<<<

And NTSC like <<< which can lead into combos and kills??? o_O
 

JCaesar

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Sheik's dthrow isn't really NTSC or PAL right now...

CGs in general aren't going to work exactly the same as they did in Melee due to increased DI potency in the Brawl engine.
 

GPDP

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...I'm confused...

Doesn't PAL dthrow throw your opponent like this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And NTSC like >>> which can lead into combos and kills??? o_O
I think the point is, Sheik's NTSC dthrow is better than entire characters, and should not be brought back. And I'd agree.

However, I am not entirely sure the PAL dthrow is the best option. Maybe it is, but I'm not really familiar with it. Could there be a better way?

Sheik's dthrow isn't really NTSC or PAL right now...

CGs in general aren't going to work exactly the same as they did in Melee due to increased DI potency in the Brawl engine.
Good point. We should take this into account. Perhaps the NTSC dthrow won't be all that bad under the Brawl engine. We're just gonna have to test it.
 

Sneak8288

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The rar arguement is seriously pointless... it doesn't make anything any easier imo. Every character can use it and it can't be abused because of the length of the dashes of certain characters. Honestly to me all it seemed like was an extra option. I played some matches with falcon and liked how I can dash rar and knee the opposite direction if I predict a roll or even rar knee during a tech chase to confuse di. There's nothing wrong with the tech at all and it doesn't even feel out of place at all.
 

jalued

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...I'm confused...

Doesn't PAL dthrow throw your opponent like this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And NTSC like >>> which can lead into combos and kills??? o_O
sheiks dthrow in NTSC:

chaingrab on alot of characters, requiring no skill.

Made techchasing easy on fox/falco etc as it landed them right next to sheik,

dthrow -> upsmash was a legitimate combo on alot of the cast.

dthrow -> fair a true kill combo

combos into ftilt, uptilt, dtilt, jab untill high %

basically dthrow combos into everything with ease! (just like the rest of her moveset)

In PAL:

no chaingrab

links into ftilt if opponent DI's in

no dthrow -> fair/upsmash

set opponent quite far in front of sheik, so makes techchasing harder and more precise (for example to techchase fox moving away from you in PAL you have to predict it)


it just makes sheik less of a one dimensional character, as her dthrow does not guarantee anything anymore

i have played both NTSC and PAL sheik, and i <3 PAL but hate NTSC.

She is just really boring and dull in NTSC imo, and her PAL dthrow makes her both funner and more challenging. The best sheik in the US atm is European, what does that tell you? ;)
 

GPDP

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The rar arguement is seriously pointless... it doesn't make anything any easier imo. Every character can use it and it can't be abused because of the length of the dashes of certain characters. Honestly to me all it seemed like was an extra option. I played some matches with falcon and liked how I can dash rar and knee the opposite direction if I predict a roll or even rar knee during a tech chase to confuse di. There's nothing wrong with the tech at all and it doesn't even feel out of place at all.
I agree, especially considering unlike the people advocating for RAR's removal, you've actually played the game. I really don't know where all this anti-RAR sentiment is coming from. Well, I have an idea, but I'd rather not put up my flameshield.
 

Rikana

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I'm not anti-rar. I'm just anti-easy-stuff. Also because we have a game to refer back to so you guys shouldn't be surprised at all when it comes to comparisons.

Also, tightening the timing of RAR does have an affect. In the whole duration where you turn around in Brawl, you can RAR and retain your momentum. By making it tight, the distance covered is smaller. In order to do that, you would have to get closer to your opponent unless you have a ridiculous bAir (like Jigs) which makes you think twice unless you can mix it up.
 

Shell

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I don't understand what you're saying, Rikana. You don't cover much additional ground while in you're run turn-around, how would only being able to do it in the first couple frames change the application much at all? It would only make the input more challenging.
 

Sneak8288

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RAR is fine... think about it this way... fox/falcos shine turn is only one extra input (dowb B) if were talking in terms of difficulty but anyways, next topic. It didn't really feel like I could fast fall the ledge after I wd off the stage. I tested it with marth and I couldn't get it to work at all
 

shanus

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you definitely can, its confirmed that you enter fall action immediately
 

Sneak8288

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Maybe the timing is different... I shoulda tried it with more characters. I might have done it with fox out of habit but I can't remember. But shanus... 1 falco vid lol please :-). U will make a lot of melee falco mains happy. Seeing shine bair in brawl gfx will make many youtubers **** lol
 
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Can't you remove the option for RAR on certain characters whose edge guarding is already too amazing?(Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth do not need to be better at edgeguarding >.<) This would reserve it for characters who are low tier or lackluster giving them appropriate options on the edges.

That way RAR could continue to be used as a valuable technique, but the tech could only be used on chars who would need it. The concept of not making things universal vs universal properties could be looked at.
 

Blitzkrieg98

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how's the landing detection code coming along?
A question I have yet to have an answer to. Needless to say, they are either working on it or isn't as important/isn't likely to implement at the moment.

Personally, I would say to keep RAR in, due to the number of options it allows and how it fits the bill for certain characters; Wolf, Dedede and Sonic come to my mind, although now I see Mario's new sex-kick B-Air benefiting from this.

From how I have experienced, both visually and playing a little B+ on the side, RAR mixes the game up a little, benefits a number of characters and can give emphasis to everyone's favorite (or least favorite) overused gaming term: mind games.

EDIT (4:14 PM) @drpepper111: It would work for those certain characters, but I don't exactly know if it can be done, per-say. Then again, I'm likely to be contradicted by coders.
 

TL?

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RAR does not need to be changed, especcially based on speculation in the pre-alpha phase. Seriously people, stop calling for the removal of minor aspects of the game before even playing it.
 

Dan_X

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Can't you remove the option for RAR on certain characters whose edge guarding is already too amazing?(Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth do not need to be better at edgeguarding >.<) This would reserve it for characters who are low tier or lackluster giving them appropriate options on the edges.

That way RAR could continue to be used as a valuable technique, but the tech could only be used on chars who would need it. The concept of not making things universal vs universal properties could be looked at.
No. This isn't "Project: Gimmicks," this is Project: Melee. Who are we to say this character deserves RARing, and this one doesn't?

RARing is easily one of the best things that Brawl brought to the table. It's fine as is...
 

Sterowent

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if you guys WERE to release a falco vid, you could always put a short message strictly emphasizing the situation with the shadow shine, and confirmation that it's only temporary. then people couldn't take the situation out of context, since the intro directly states that it'll be fixed soon.

or, since it's a replay, you could always fix the shine and THEN record it. nothing would change if done correctly, right?
 

shanus

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@char specific RAR: no, that'd be both inconsistent and technically impossible for me to code.
 

shanus

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if you guys WERE to release a falco vid, you could always put a short message strictly emphasizing the situation with the shadow shine, and confirmation that it's only temporary. then people couldn't take the situation out of context, since the intro directly states that it'll be fixed soon.

or, since it's a replay, you could always fix the shine and THEN record it. nothing would change if done correctly, right?
I suspect the issue of the shine hitstun being removed (when electric) is technically some sort of weird property hardcoded into falco's action 115 (down B). I suspect I will need to overwrite his final smash action so that when downB is triggered, it exits that action (and therefore the hardcoded module) and then the normal routine is run. However, that would probably corrupt the replay since the commands won't be identical anymore. Keep in mind, this is all theorycraft
 

CT Chia

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Since it now recognizes light shoulder button pressing, do you have to use a cube controller? Or is this chuk/cc compatible?
 

Shell

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It should still be compatible with those controllers, but they won't have light presses.
 
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