Project M Social Thread Gold

[Gamegenie222]

That top player biased inserting reasons why people are bad or frauds etc etc. This happens with alot of games people and since it's M2K it's praised almost like a law lololol, I rather read Inui smash post on FB than this which is kind of addicting . And when a game is new and your not experienced in a MU and don't know what the other character can do in a MU gimmicks can and will happen and it's all up to you to not got bopped by it and maintain your composure doesn't matter what it is. Also more time playing the game and studying it works wonders instead of complain first ask questions later because I'm so and so.

In other news

Spoiler

 

[Rᴏb]

I just think it's funny that toph agrees with him. ****in toph

 

[mtmaster]

That top player biased inserting reasons why people are bad or frauds etc etc. This happens with alot of games people and since it's M2K it's praised almost like a law lololol, I rather read Inui smash post on FB than this which is kind of addicting . And when a game is new and your not experienced in a MU and don't know what the other character can do in a MU gimmicks can and will happen and it's all up to you to not got bopped by it and maintain your composure doesn't matter what it is. Also more time playing the game and studying it works wonders instead of complain first ask questions later because I'm so and so.

In other news

Spoiler

Spoiler

The irony of that picture lol.

 

[Achluo]

You complete moine life

 

[standardtoaster]

@ standardtoaster
Do you know how to view the default values for the internal constants? I am so knowledge-greedy lol

the default values are already listed on the wiki page. if you want to find out what ones changed, the best way would be to get a memory dump of vbrawl and pm and then compare the IC-Basics. i can get you a list of what's changed

 

[Yung Mei]

does anyone else have this **** when they record with the el gato? can anyone recommend any good settings to smooth it out and reduce scanlines or w/e in vegas?

 

[MechWarriorNY]

does anyone else have this **** when they record with the el gato? can anyone recommend any good settings to smooth it out and reduce scanlines or w/e in vegas?

http://videos974.com/videos/how-to-get-rid-of-elgato-hd-capture-lag

?

 

[standardtoaster]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

this is great

 

[Lizalfos]

The problem with saying that people ride off of gimmicks/fundamental-defying elements is that 1) the metagame is extremely young and MU strats inevitably have to be developed and 2) gimmicks beat out low/mid level players, but lose to actually good players.

I mean, what does this have anything to do with the players who actually win regional/national level tournaments? You know, the ones who possess exceptional adaptability and strong character understanding, and make very intelligent plays?

I mean Zero is all gimmicks guys. Spacing? Projectiles? Combos? All gimmicks.

 

[trash?]

does anyone else have this **** when they record with the el gato? can anyone recommend any good settings to smooth it out and reduce scanlines or w/e in vegas?

http://help.elgato.com/customer/portal/articles/1346064-how-do-i-change-deinterlacing-

it's a weird thing to note when you're first getting into this stuff because you don't exactly have a name for "weird squiggly/wavy line things" but that's interlacing, yeah

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Just putting this out there: EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME IN HISTORY THAT IS PLAYED COMPETITIVELY STARTS OFF WITH UNKNOWN MATCHUPS, GIMMICK ABUSE AND "SCRUB" TACTICS, >UNTIL PEOPLE LEARN TO FIGHT AGAINST THEM<

Don't even act like Melee didn't have the same thing. Don't. Even. Marvel had it. Street Fighter had it. King of Fighters, Blazblue, Brawl had it. Melee definitely had it.

Whining about not knowing how to fight something, but you guys had Melee Fox for years until we all adapted. What happened when people figured out Jigglypuff could 0-D someone in the blink of an eye? Shut up with that crap.

Just whining about losing and thinking the superiority couch over there with Melee justifies you losing in PM.

 

[Phan7om]

That is so true!

Thats literally why tier lists are so screwed up the first or second times they are made.

 

[Ting Sing]

The community lately has really been making it seem that playing PM only is looked down on. I'd probably play more Melee if I currently had a copy, but I'm having fun with PM by itself right now. Seeing what M2K had to say recently about playing PM only, and how you're a "fraud" by doing so, kind of put me down. And I feel that making changes to the game is okay, as long as every change is minor and after long periods of time.

 

[Player -0]

This is from M2K: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2bhmih/project_m_stuff/

Edit - From reading some comments and etc. M2K knows Melee had gimmicks but since everyone had time to play/learn they're not gimmicks anymore and he's criticizing how there isn't time for this to happen in P:M. More stuff too probs.

 

[Phan7om]

I genuinely agree with everything he said on there besides the tier placements.

 

[Lizalfos]

I would, but there's no point.

I don't try to convince those set in their ways to change. I just watch them do this:

and laugh at them on the wayside.


Not really my problem.

Wow you are so above everyone and cool. This is about M2K insisting new players are frauds. For some reason you want to discredit all new players.

 

[GP&B]

There's a fine line between gimmicks that will eventually not work and genuine balance problems. I don't think Mewtwo needs significant nerfs at all. I just find TP -> Hover to completely defy both the neutral and the ability to edgeguard him in any way possible.

 

[Ting Sing]

This is from M2K: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2bhmih/project_m_stuff/

I know, I saw the post and I know the point he's trying to make. I guess one way to sum it up is that people sometimes end up losing to a character's gimmicks being utilized by a player who has a lesser skill level.

The way I see it is that every fighting game starts out like that, and people just need to let the meta grow, however I do agree with M2K when he says that that's difficult with the constant nerfs/buffs. I also think that if you lose to a player who utilizes gimmicks to take the win, then he deserves it, you know? And the whole topic on people's ego... If those "gimmicky" players have some sort of ego boost from winning, let them have it.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Some recent JPN play featuring aMSa, Brood and Kaito. All LF/WF/GF matches.

EDIT: Just added GF match.

 

[Lizalfos]

I guess M2K just means this in the same way that people would lose to F-smash F-smash into F-smash vs. Marth early in Melee's life.

 

[Cassio]

Honestly, its more a statement about the community then the game, and m2ks not the only person whos expressed that sentiment. People just have to accept that its really easy to win off gimmicky game mechanics and MUs in PM compared to other games, especially right now. Its only annoying when people get egos about being good though or try to deny the role it plays in results.

Let me put it this way too.

Brawl players wont and dont start playing Melee and see high/top level success without putting in a significant amount of effort.

Melee players wont and dont start playing Brawl and see high/top level success without putting in a significant amount of effort.

And of course Ive never heard of a PMer move to Brawl/Melee and do well.

However you see this happen all the time when people start playing PM. People who suddenly pick up the game and in a couple weeks theyre making upsets then 2-3 months later suddenly theyre high/top level players, especially if they come from a successful melee/brawl background.

On top of this, there are many good PM players that did play melee or brawl for a very long time without doing very well, then suddenly switch over and start seeing success but still do poorly in other games.

The point being people who are mostly PM players collectively dont have developed fundamentals like you see in other communities atm. Emukiller himself has stated this.

 

[Deleted member]

"I shall insult you. It's my opinion. I don't care if you agree or not."

*proceeds to type gigantic post attempting to explain and justify said insults.*

 

[trash?]

because there's not a massive gap between smash games anymore. this is expected, because P:M is supposed to bridge that gap

a brawl player has to get really good over time to play melee high-level and vice-versa, because if you haven't noticed, brawl and melee and two incredibly different entities, with different meanings of spacing and combos and DI. PM... is kind of melee, and kind of not. you can come from melee, and you can choose from all these new, viable playstyles instead of hoping the top tiers in melee kinda fit what you want to play, but it's still under the cover of mechanics and physics you immediately understand. that's a huge deal, because that means there's more of a chance that you can find a character that plays like you play, meaning you're maximizing them to their best potential instead of forcing characters into your style

 

[GP&B]

I think some of this has to do with trying to balance the cast around Fox, hence why I think a general drop in top tier strength is going to happen. Attempting to give characters the tools to compete effectively at that level results in a bit of a power creep where their tools are kind of nuts. This is how you end up with a mid tier that's pretty much the Delphox of PM: very competent but still outclassed. Do all this in the next major release and let the game sit for a solid year or more and I think that would be the best way to achieve a future gold edition.

@ trash? this is honestly the reason why I have a tough time getting back into Melee. I look at the top 8 and can't find anyone I like. I look at the rest of the roster and know for a fact I'm not even remotely competent enough to make them work without first making my fundamentals good.

 

[Ting Sing]

@ GP&B 100% agreed. Although I do main Falcon.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=205184

Huh...So yeah, THIS just happened.

I'm sure some Mother fans in here are probably gonna eat this up, eh?

Surprised it took this long, though. Even if it's a vertex instead of a model.

 

[Rᴏb]

People complain that PM updates too often and that the PMBR shouldn't fix the toxic gameplay they advertently cause from time to time. "Just let the metagame develop!!"

People then complain about said toxic gameplay. "Nerf boomerang/fireballs/Mewtwo/fox/recoveries!!" "Sonic is, at least, ridiculous."

Who do we listen to?

 

[Ting Sing]

@ Kaye Cruiser Mother fan reporting and oh god is that supposed to be Giegue/Giygas??

 

[GP&B]

People complain that PM updates too often and that the PMBR shouldn't fix the toxic gameplay they advertently cause from time to time. "Just let the metagame develop!!"

People then complain about said toxic gameplay. "Nerf boomerang/fireballs/Mewtwo/fox/recoveries!!" "Sonic is, at least, ridiculous."

Who do we listen to?

The ones providing detailed assessments that point to where the core issue lies. Shoutouts to @ Praxis for exposing that Diddy's only big problem with recovery is random barrel nonsense. We need more of that.

Though to be fair on the Mario fireball nerf talk, the biggest problem with this is that Mario didn't even need it to begin with. He was arguably high tier already.

 

[Lizalfos]

Honestly, its more a statement about the community then the game, and m2ks not the only person whos expressed that sentiment. People just have to accept that its really easy to win off gimmicky game mechanics and MUs in PM compared to other games, especially right now. Its only annoying when people get egos about being good though or try to deny the role it plays in results.

Let me put it this way too.

Brawl players wont and dont start playing Melee and see high/top level success without putting in a significant amount of effort.

Melee players wont and dont start playing Brawl and see high/top level success without putting in a significant amount of effort.

And of course Ive never heard of a PMer move to Brawl/Melee and do well.

However you see this happen all the time when people start playing PM. People who suddenly pick up the game and in a couple weeks theyre making upsets then 2-3 months later suddenly theyre high/top level players, especially if they come from a successful melee/brawl background.

On top of this, there are many good PM players that did play melee or brawl for a very long time without doing very well, then suddenly switch over and start seeing success but still do poorly in other games.

The point being people who are mostly PM players collectively dont have developed fundamentals like you see in other communities atm. Emukiller himself has stated this.

But I play falco. Falco da best. Good in all the games. How can I gimmick you as Falco? Basically I'm automatically better than you because Falco.

Only character that I'm sure needs a buff is Jiggs, maybe Sheik, but def Jiggs

 

[Praxis]

People complain that PM updates too often and that the PMBR shouldn't fix the toxic gameplay they advertently cause from time to time. "Just let the metagame develop!!"

People then complain about said toxic gameplay. "Nerf boomerang/fireballs/Mewtwo/fox/recoveries!!" "Sonic is, at least, ridiculous."

Who do we listen to?

Listen to David Sirlin.

From the book "Playing to Win":


http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick.

Replace "ban" with "nerf".

Assume the tactic isn't OP, spend time in the lab looking for counters to it, try it on other people and see if they have counters to it, and if and only if after all of these the tactics seem to break the game, document it and start an open discussion about it.

However, the majority of people posting decide to define anything they don't like dealing with as "toxic" and argue that it should be nerfed. Imagine how many edge situation tricks we'd never have figured out if we could have just patched out anything "too good" out of Melee. We'd have definitely nerfed Fox's uthrow > uair instead of discovering that we can SDI it.

Bonus quote:

Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.

Only in the ultra-rare case that the player is right and the game is worth saving and the game without the ultra-tactic is a ten times better game—only then is the notion even worth fighting for. And even in this case, it may take time for the game to mature enough for a great percentage of the best players and tournament organizers to realize that tactic should, indeed, be banned. Before an official ban takes place, there can also be something called “soft ban.” Let’s look at an example.

 

[Lizalfos]

Listen to David Sirlin.

From the book "Playing to Win":


http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html




Replace "ban" with "nerf".

Assume the tactic isn't OP, spend time in the lab looking for counters to it, try it on other people and see if they have counters to it, and if and only if after all of these the tactics seem to break the game, document it and start an open discussion about it.

However, the majority of people posting decide to define anything they don't like dealing with as "toxic" and argue that it should be nerfed. Imagine how many edge situation tricks we'd never have figured out if we could have just patched out anything "too good" out of Melee. We'd have definitely nerfed Fox's uthrow > uair instead of discovering that we can SDI it.

Bonus quote:

Yeah, I kinda would hate to see diddy nerfs now. I have no idea what else people are trying to get nerfed, but def don't want MewTwo, PSI Kids, or Diddy nerfs. I could live if swallow-sides were gone, but taking them out is unnecessary.

Jigs is still terrible, it sucks too because you can't change much without ruining the way it was in Melee. I literally can only think of rest always killing off the top and killing every time, or a stupid sing buff.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Oh dear, I spaced against a new move in a new game and retaliated with a punish revolving around Melee rules and former techniques from within the game? I'm such a fraud someone shoot me and nerf Roy to hell becuz new.

 

[Player -0]

Yeah, I kinda would hate to see diddy nerfs now. I have no idea what else people are trying to get nerfed, but def don't want MewTwo, PSI Kids, or Diddy nerfs. I could live if swallow-sides were gone, but taking them out is unnecessary.

Jigs is still terrible, it sucks too because you can't change much without ruining the way it was in Melee. I literally can only think of rest always killing off the top and killing every time, or a stupid sing buff.

Swallowcide* -Cide is the thing for killing. Pesticide, homicide, etc.


I'm not sure if Lucas needs a killing Up Throw because of his ability to set up kills so well and B-Throw already has decent knockback later on (Not sure if it kills but at 160% I think it's really close, depending on the stage). M2's woop woop ledgestall is pretty meh. Diddy's Up-B misfire needs to be derped. Kirby's swallowcides are really gimmicky and people get wrecked super hard for some reason.

Pretty much really minor nerfs if any (Although nerfing Lucas' Up Throw is questionably big).

 

[MonkUnit]

http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=205184

Huh...So yeah, THIS just happened.

I'm sure some Mother fans in here are probably gonna eat this up, eh?

Surprised it took this long, though. Even if it's a vertex instead of a model.

I've never played any Mother games but as soon as I saw that, I thought it was supposed to be an anorexic Mewtwo or something.

 

[Praxis]

Yeah, I kinda would hate to see diddy nerfs now. I have no idea what else people are trying to get nerfed, but def don't want MewTwo, PSI Kids, or Diddy nerfs. I could live if swallow-sides were gone, but taking them out is unnecessary.

Jigs is still terrible, it sucks too because you can't change much without ruining the way it was in Melee. I literally can only think of rest always killing off the top and killing every time, or a stupid sing buff.

Purely IMO since this is a social thread:

I want to see Diddy's misfire barrels go away (I'll miss you, buddies) and Mewtwo's up-B stall go away and that's it. Pit's dthrow needs to have more knockback scaling so it doesn't chain to death, I'd give Fox his lasers back, and buff some bad characters in subtle ways (give Falcon's up-B a wall kick like Mario's, improve Roy somehow, improve Ganondorf, improve Jigglypuff by making her pound take 2/3rds of a shield off and a jump-cancellable sing, increase the height of Toon Link's up-B and a better OOS option, maybe tiny tiny buffs to a couple other characters like Bowser). I'd also make some audio/visual changes to Sonic to make his moves look more distinct.

I also want to see some mechanic to punish repeated ledge regrabs without touching the ground that makes stalling ineffective, to eliminate stalling techniques.

 

[Lizalfos]

Purely IMO since this is a social thread:

I want to see Diddy's misfire barrels go away (I'll miss you, buddies) and Mewtwo's up-B stall go away and that's it. Pit's dthrow needs to have more knockback scaling so it doesn't chain to death, I'd give Fox his lasers back, and buff some bad characters in subtle ways (give Falcon's up-B a wall kick like Mario's, improve Roy somehow, improve Ganondorf, improve Jigglypuff by making her pound take 2/3rds of a shield off maybe, increase the height of Toon Link's up-B and a better OOS option, maybe tiny tiny buffs to a couple other characters like Bowser). I'd also make some audio/visual changes to Sonic to make his moves look more distinct.

I also want to see some mechanic to punish repeated ledge regrabs without touching the ground that makes stalling ineffective, to eliminate stalling techniques.

I like the idea for the sonic visual overhaul. That seems like it would make the haters stop complaining about the ball thing as much, and it helps spectators who want to understand what moves a player is doing.

Does Tink really need buffs? Less people play him than most characters, but I don't think he is bad. Decent projectiles, meh recovery that has the AGT trick going for it, and solid kill moves.

Invincible infinite regrabs with MewTwo are dumb and should be made so that you at least have to drop down from ledge for a full sec until you can grab again with Up-b. That way its like the Sheik Up-b grab invincibility where at least you can technically ledgehog.

I'm afraid of Gannon buffs, same with the rest of your buffs, not that they are broken, just that its alot more changes than the meta needs right now.


RIP misfire barrels, you won't be remembered.

I'm not sure if Lucas needs a killing Up Throw because of his ability to set up kills so well and B-Throw already has decent knockback later on (Not sure if it kills but at 160% I think it's really close, depending on the stage).

Pretty much really minor nerfs if any (Although nerfing Lucas' Up Throw is questionably big).

I know, you want his up-throw to chaingrab Falco. YOU AREN'T WELCOME HERE!

 

[trash?]

tossing out all chaingrabs in general couldn't hurt much, really. like there ain't ever gonna be a point where chaingrabs aren't cheesy and metagame-devolving, because their purpose is to water something down to "get a grab and win"

and also maybe give ganon a move that isn't silly. or just put arty on stream so people can learn of the vortex

 

[Lizalfos]

tossing out all chaingrabs in general couldn't hurt much, really. like there ain't ever gonna be a point where chaingrabs aren't cheesy and metagame-devolving, because their purpose is to water something down to "get a grab and win"

and also maybe give ganon a move that isn't silly. or just put arty on stream so people can learn of the vortex

I appreciate your contribution to the Falcos Against Lords Foundation.

Only chain grabs that can't be DI'd and are to death percents are bad. None of these grabs really exist (apparently Pit has his d-throw to super high percents but I need to research that). Ice Climber handoffs are situational, hard to perform, and require space therefore they should remain. Furthermore, Ice Climbers aren't ever played so why discourage people from learning the character's ATs.

Honestly, I was going to say that Sheik needs her D-throw restored, so I think we are just thinking completely differently. XD

 

[Soft Serve]

The vortex IS REAL.

I'd be down to give Ganon a Green Hand Or a projectile Invincible Lariat for a "720" command grab on neutral b. If the move was actually useful, it could still feel impactful when it did land.