Project M Social Thread Gold

[Raccoon Chuck]

Eh, I'm not sure enough users of the social thread or the boards in general know the difference between underplayed and terrible. And let's not nerf lucas, I'd give the kid some time, and in the meanwhile we can dig up some anti-Lucas tech.

Given ye old Knee Barrage and up air combos, I'd be fine having Falcon's recovery kept where it is thank you.

 

[Ting Sing]

...and buff some bad characters in subtle ways (give Falcon's up-B a wall kick like Mario's...

Piqued my interest. Falcon with a wall-jumpable up-B? Well, maybe if the second up-B given from the wall jump was shortened, that would be interesting. Or if his Up-B could be angled a little more horizontally the more you hold forward, or something.

 

[Phan7om]

Make Falcon's Up-B a kill move

Eh, I'm not sure enough users of the social thread or the boards in general know the difference between underplayed and terrible.

Its more like they think the character's popularity determines how viable the character is, they look at Melee's highly developed meta and notice that the popular characters are the best ones so they automatically assume its the same for PM... I dont agree with it, but I assume thats subconsciously the case.

 

[Yung Mei]

Make Falcon's Up-B a kill move

this or change side b so you can walljump out, imagine all the sick combos

 

[MechWarriorNY]

@ThatGuyYouMightKnow Thank you for prioritizing logic and reason over hurt feelings.

For some reason you want to discredit all new players.

I really like when communities I am part of thrive freely


I DON'T like your kind of people; the vocal minority that that silent majority can't be bothered with the effort to silence forcefully.

"One bad apple spoils the whole barrel."

 

[QuickRat]

I've never played any Mother games but as soon as I saw that, I thought it was supposed to be an anorexic Mewtwo or something.

It's this guy, from MOTHER (or EarthBound Zero, if you preffer):

Spoiler

 

[Lizalfos]

Make Falcon's Up-B a kill move

Its more like they think the character's popularity determines how viable the character is, they look at Melee's highly developed meta and notice that the popular characters are the best ones so they automatically assume its the same for PM... I dont agree with it, but I assume thats subconsciously the case.

Its more than that. Its that you buff unpopular characters so that people try them and they become popular. Game designers do it all the time. Often they make negligible buffs in the hopes that someone will pick a character up and buff it.

Not that it should be done excessively, or in P:M's case right now, at all.

@ThatGuyYouMightKnow Thank you for prioritizing logic and reason over hurt feelings.


I really like when communities I am part of thrive freely


I DON'T like your kind of people; the vocal minority that that silent majority can't be bothered with the effort to silence forcefully.

"One bad apple spoils the whole barrel."

Our reasoning is that as a new game, our metagame is developing and shouldn't be tampered with excessively, and that even those who are using gimmicks are pioneering the metagame. Would you appreciate it if you were inventing, learning, and building up your Project M character that has existed in no game prior, then people from Melee, who have all of the tech, fundamentals, and matchups laid out for them, started saying that you are bad, and because you lack the fundamentals of people who have played a game since they were kids, you don't receive any credit for spending countless hours with your character in the lab. Its saying that being a master of one game is better than the other. Melee is a game of fundamentals. Project M is a game about new matchups, mechanics, and fundamentals.

I'm sorry if you don't respect those who are actively making Project: M a better game with every tournament winning.
I'm sorry you went into this game thinking you could ride your Melee fundamentals as a crutch without learning anything new.
I'm sorry you think I'm making Illogical points. From my perspective, disliking players because they have more knowledge, rather than fundamental skill, is a major prejudice and you should work it out.

Just to show how fatally flawed your logic is I'm going to apply it to Melee.
"Fox players are 90% riding on their characters and not their skill."
"HaxDashing is a gimmick that give an unfair advantage to people who know about it when recovering to stage."

Edit: I'm confused Mech do you agree with M2K?

 

[Lizalfos]

Ten Double Posts

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Tethers stop working after 3 uses without touching the ground (which I honestly think is a little too little). I'd say increase tethers to a 4 grab limit, but also apply this limit to normal upB recoveries (I don't know how this would interact with ROB?). How's that sound? This is just the first thought to come to mind, so it's probably not very refined.

An increase to the height of Tink's recovery would pretty much only make bomb jumping easier, as the tether is generally more useful at the range where you don't need to AGT. I suppose if they reinstitute Melee tethers (ewwww) the buff to upB would be more necessary so Tink has more than one option on stuff like Lylat.

Jiggs and Sheik need buffs, but it would be difficult to buff them without breaking some of their already positive Melee matchups. I think Jiggs needs something better than (or some sort of minor buff to) Sing, and the same applies to Sheik's chain. That said, Jiggs isn't bad, but she's pretty much outclassed and you can do anything you want to do with her better with another character. Sheik has a difficult time playing against floaties that she can't gimp very well, so some sort of recovery buff might be something to look into so she can go a little deeper. But these changes might make these charters sort of broken against melee top tiers and their like (fastfallers with mediocre or worse recoveries).

 

[Lizalfos]

I think that Up-B recoveries in general are fine with ledge grabs, but with Mew2 its that you are completely invincible and entirely only the ledge the whole time, or at least a vast majority.

Shiek and Jigs are outclassed. I don't understand why giving Sheik the absurd D-throw game is so bad, but I prolly just don't understand.

I think melee tethers are cool but they don't have to be on all characters, they can vary from melee to brawl tethers. Tink keeps the Brawl, maybe Link could get melee. I think people want Melee tethers for Samus, but even then it can vary from ice and fire forms.

these changes might make these charters sort of broken against melee top tiers and their like Falco.

Fixed.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

I really don't have any problem with tethers, but what I'd really like to see changed is how invincibility frames function. I remember someone brought up the idea of invincibility being halved each time a regrab is performed, and that would be a nice little touch. Wouldn't have an effect on hax dashing though.

 

[Lizalfos]

Seriously, all the talk about ledge grabbing outside of M2 (even then its not felt that this makes M2 gamebreaking) is kinda pointless. Changing it makes such a massive difference to currently established mechanics in a metagame that doesn't require the change. Ledge Grab limits exist in tournaments, stuff like ChuDat camping Junebug (Hilarious) don't actually grant the player a win.

 

[GP&B]

In other news, I got my new cooling pad for my laptop and it is glorious.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ standardtoaster
Yeah a list of what changed would be really nice!

 

[trash?]

CAPTAIN FALCON CHANGES:

-his 64 version is his coolest version just make it that
-like for real, you can combo into falcon punch quickly and consistently in SSB64 and if you don't think that's rad you're boring as heck

 

[standardtoaster]

i'll get you that list later today

 

[Bleck]

standardtoaster don't play with us like that

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

@ Kaye Cruiser Mother fan reporting and oh god is that supposed to be Giegue/Giygas??

Eeeeyup. Pretty much.

I've never played any Mother games but as soon as I saw that, I thought it was supposed to be a more anorexic Mewtwo or something.

Fixed.

Well, technically, Mewtwo is a less anorexic Giegue/Giygas to begin with since Giygas came first, but yeah. I can see that. lol

 

[StarshipGroove]

One far-fetched idea I have is that if Diddy Kong overcharges his jetpack it blows up, which launches Diddy vertically with fire damage, and the rocketbarrels fly away wildly

Idk I just like the rocketbarrels. Doing away with them completely is sad.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

What if we give Bowser Luigi's wavedash, Peaches float, and voice acting courtesy of Gordon Ramsay?

Edit: In all seriousness, NO ONE TOUCHES DEM ROCKETBARRELS!

 

[Player -0]

Purely IMO since this is a social thread:

I want to see Diddy's misfire barrels go away (I'll miss you, buddies) and Mewtwo's up-B stall go away and that's it. Pit's dthrow needs to have more knockback scaling so it doesn't chain to death, I'd give Fox his lasers back, and buff some bad characters in subtle ways (give Falcon's up-B a wall kick like Mario's, improve Roy somehow, improve Ganondorf, improve Jigglypuff by making her pound take 2/3rds of a shield off and a jump-cancellable sing, increase the height of Toon Link's up-B and a better OOS option, maybe tiny tiny buffs to a couple other characters like Bowser). I'd also make some audio/visual changes to Sonic to make his moves look more distinct.

I also want to see some mechanic to punish repeated ledge regrabs without touching the ground that makes stalling ineffective, to eliminate stalling techniques.

TLink's Up B is fine. His recovery has a tether, bomb jumps, wall jumps, Up-B (that kills) to cancel tether in case someone is hogging. His Up-B also works as an amazing OoS option. TLink doesn't really need anything.

 

[Phan7om]

I honestly always thought they should give z-tethers 1 time use basically like how it was in Melee, while leaving up-b tethers the same.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Why? When you use a tether it's your recovery, but when your recovery is a tether it gets 3 uses?

 

[Player -0]

Why? When you use a tether it's your recovery, but when your recovery is a tether it gets 3 uses?

The logic behind it is probably because people with other Up-B stuff can rely on that and forcing the person off the tether makes it so it's easier to punish whereas Up B Tether doods get boned.


Not sure if I like the suggestion but it definitely would be an interesting take on nerfing Lucas'/Link's/TLink's/etc. edgehogging capabilities and recovering capabilities.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

why would you nerf them though
tink, link, samus, and lucas aren't OP edgehoggers
tether's aren't OP
they're punishable already

 

[The_Altrox]

What if we give Bowser Luigi's wavedash, Peaches float, and voice acting courtesy of Gordon Ramsay?

Dear @Strong Bad,

I second @ Raccoon Chuck 's notion.

Love, The_Altrox

But seriously, on the M2K topic, on the very off chance that I were to become good at Smash 4, would I fall into the category of fraudulent? Because I really have never been good at Melee and why I enjoy playing it, I do not plan on focusing on my Melee play when I vastly prefer PM

 

[Lizalfos]

One far-fetched idea I have is that if Diddy Kong overcharges his jetpack it blows up, which launches Diddy vertically with fire damage, and the rocketbarrels fly away wildly

Idk I just like the rocketbarrels. Doing away with them completely is sad.

This is kinda cool actually, really punishable, only works if you are high anyway. XD

 

[Phan7om]

There's a fine line, cuz you can visually tell whether someone is actually good at the game or if they are just abusing gimmicks. M2k was talking about the latter. If you come from Melee/Brawl and actually incorporate important and well executed fundamentals in your gameplay and you get far in tourney, there shouldn't be any johns if M2K loses to you. But if M2K is saying that people who are smart but not as smart as him are getting just as far as him because of gimmicks, thats his fault. When a new game is born, the skill gap is a lot smaller, he should know that. Gimmicks will die eventually and the ones who were truly good will still be truly good at the game.

 

[Bleck]

Can somebody explain to me what a 'gimmick' is.

 

[Phan7om]

Can somebody explain to me what a 'gimmick' is.

Basically **** that doesnt look like it should work, but works... aka, something new that hasnt been in any smash game so far and is viable because no one knows how to deal with it.

 

[Bleck]

...so, basically M2K is saying that anyone he doesn't know how to beat is actually bad at the game?

Still not sure why anyone cares what he thinks.

 

[Phan7om]

...so, basically M2K is saying that anyone he doesn't know how to beat is actually bad at the game?

Still not sure why anyone cares what he thinks.

More like anything he doesnt know how to beat means that its borderline OP and carrying the player, not the players skill. Hes been saying stuff like that for the longest of time in both Melee and Brawl. Main reason why I like to call him the worlds best noob lmao.

 

[Soft Serve]

Can somebody explain to me what a 'gimmick' is.

No one knows what a gimmick is

 

[Lizalfos]

There's a fine line, cuz you can visually tell whether someone is actually good at the game or if they are just abusing gimmicks. M2k was talking about the latter. If you come from Melee/Brawl and actually incorporate important and well executed fundamentals in your gameplay and you get far in tourney, there shouldn't be any johns if M2K loses to you. But if M2K is saying that people who are smart but not as smart as him are getting just as far as him because of gimmicks, thats his fault. When a new game is born, the skill gap is a lot smaller, he should know that. Gimmicks will die eventually and the ones who were truly good will still be truly good at the game.

Yeah, what was off putting is the idea that P:M only people were frauds. He just ended the sentence that way and it came across horribly.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

If m2k really thinks that PM is for scrubs, then he should MM me at D&D.

 

[SunJester]

I asked a PMBR member for insight on character balance, this is the response he gave me.

Spoiler

 

[Phan7om]

Idk, its hard to explain... i know exactly what M2K means but a lot of people still kinda misunderstand him. Its not just strictly
"If you play PM, your a scrub... get gud and play Melee" or anything like that. But similar.

Its more like
"Melee takes high technical prowess on top of having to think and predict in order to be good, PM has options built out for you in any situation, so not as much thought has to go into getting good at it"... basically what Armada and Dr.PP PPMD both said before, nothing too new.

Idk, thats still not quite his point... i dont really know how to explain it perfectly. Whether its true or not im not going to comment on, but basically thats what he meant.

 

[Fortress]

Idk, its hard to explain... i know exactly what M2K means but a lot of people still kinda misunderstand him. Its not just strictly
"If you play PM, your a scrub... get gud and play Melee" or anything like that. But similar.

Its more like
"Melee takes high technical prowess on top of having to think and predict in order to be good, PM has options built out for you in any situation, so not as much thought has to go into getting good at it"

Idk, thats still not quite his point... i dont really know how to explain it perfectly. Whether its true or not im not going to comment on, but basically thats what he meant.

It's easier to compete and the tools to perform at a higher level are more accessible. It's not a bad thing that PM's easier. I don't enjoy playing Melee much, but I still think it takes more of a certain kind of skill to play it over PM. I'm fine with PM being dumbed down slightly, it's why I'll be switching over to S4 when it's out.

There's a huge degree of truth to the fact that players at a lower skill level in PM can get away with all kinds of amazing shenanigans because of how much easier they are to access when you stack it up against Melee. You compare it to... Blanka vs Ryu in Street Fighter. Pit two players against one another at a similar level, and the Blanka player can mash **** out and probably win more often than the Ryu, whose character's learning curve is much higher, and much more rewarding later on.

PM's got a different dynamic going on than Melee, in that all of the tools that you need to succeed are much easier to use and rely on. Put a PM-only Weegee in Melee, for instance, and I can almost guarantee that they'll be flattened by a Melee/PM vet.

 

[Bleck]

Melee's technical skill requirements are higher than PM's, but that means as much as it says. It doesn't make it a better game, nor does it make a Melee player's accomplishments somehow worth more than another player's in PM.

 

[| Kailex |]

Why are you all so idiotic, where's the fun in debating crap with m2k, you could use this precious time to have fun in bed (holding hands)