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Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

Chidosengan

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Why does it says Miciaiah's chance lowers just because Zelda's is still a magic character? That's like saying Capt. Falcon can't make because Mario can already punch.

I don't know about you but it doesn't make sense to lower her chances just because of that logic.

Oh yeah, you should have an "UNCONFIRMED" section for those in your list who didn't make it as fighters, pokeballs, or assist. (ex. Tom Nook :hurray!: )
 

Smooth Criminal

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* Smooth Criminal mopes into Wiseguy's thread, looking deflated and absolutely miserable. Considering that this is a forum for all things that are Smash, Smooth's disappointment clearly relates to the new information that has been doled out by Sakurai and Company. Before the inevitable questions of "why?" and "what's wrong?" are asked, SC weakly gestures to the picture below.*




* Lower lip drawn out and pouting, Smooth stalks off of the center stage and sulks in a sundry corner somewhere.*

>.>; As you can tell, this update has made me sad. I was hoping that Zamus was going to be something that you hold A for, not something that's accessible after a super attack. I'm still hoping that you can freely switch between Samus and Zamus at the character select screen.

Smooth Criminal
 

DonkeySmasher

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
761
i'm happy (not for the actual way she transforms but the fact that it was my prediction when i saw the first trailer my first time)

anyway let's say that holding a allows you to be zamus first also this makes her able to use a fs making her samus after the attack

after thinking of that i stole this idea

ok time for some Zamus fs speculation...
i'm going to say she will find the Varia Suit and will touch it equiping it... but for all of us who has played a metroid game we know equipping a new suit causes a shockwave i'm going to guess that that shockwave will be the thing that causes damage
 

PrinnyFlute

Smash Journeyman
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Mar 20, 2007
Messages
331
People are counting Geno as a Square rep now? I'd say he's in a completely different class than a 'rep.'
Square can't make any cash off of him without Nintendo's blessing. They've got no use for him whatsoever outside of rereleasing SMRPG on Virtual Console. As far as Squeenix is concerned, Geno's stuffed in a box in a janitor's closet somewhere, and if Sakurai wants to walk in and dust him off with their easily-given permission, hey! ;) More marketing for when they pop SMRPG on the VC.

Which is quite different from, say, Chocobo or Black Mage, who ARE major trademarks and would require a bevy of legal fees and time to make sure nobody's stepping on anybody elses toes by letting them appear in a Wii casual fighting title. ESPECIALLY with FF: Dissidia coming out on PSP. There's a chance they wouldn't let that happen at all, so as hardcore FF fans have to get their fix with a game by Square and not a guest appearance in another fighting game that's already going to sell millions of copies.


But...yeah. I play Samus now and then, and this transformation thing is getting me a little bummed. As much as I trust Sakurai...are you really going to tell me that I can't use her FS if I don't want to have to fight as a different character entirely?
 

Wiseguy

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I never played a Pikmin game, so it wouldn't really bother me if there wasn't another Pikmin game. You know what I want? You're gonna have to wait for it. No, just kidding, I want a Star Fox game for the Wii.

Do the right thing, Nintendo! Bring back Star Fox, for everlasting peace!
A Star Fox game for Wii would be great too, but frankly I think Pikmin is a WAAAAY better series. You should really hunt down Pikmin 1 and 2. Awesome games.

They were going to make a Starfox game for the Wii, but then Fox got eaten by yellow Pikmin halfway through production.
That's why he looks so different in Brawl. It's not the same Fox, just some stand in. The new guys real name is Bernard.
So THAT'S how Sakurai decided to gimp the high tier characters... hopefully Sheik was also ripped apart and gragged piece by piece to the Pikmin's onion, where he/she/it/potatoe could be converted into hundreds and hundreds of Pikmin!

Why does it says Miciaiah's chance lowers just because Zelda's is still a magic character? That's like saying Capt. Falcon can't make because Mario can already punch.

I don't know about you but it doesn't make sense to lower her chances just because of that logic.

Oh yeah, you should have an "UNCONFIRMED" section for those in your list who didn't make it as fighters, pokeballs, or assist. (ex. Tom Nook :hurray!: )
Well, one of the reasons that I felt Miciaiah stood such a high chance was the uniqueness of her moveset. Once it revealed that Zelda was still just a magic user, it seemed to me that she was no longer had that niche within the roster. I think thinks she stands a good shot, but I just don't see her as as much of a shoe in as I once did.

An Unconfirmed list sounds like a pretty good idea. Maybe in my next update....

well tom nook is still on the list, he hasnt got around to it.
ACK! He isn't supposed to be.... I edited Resseti's profile I (with a link to KevRed's moveset) yesterday but for some reason it isn't there... I'll edit it back in right now.

* Smooth Criminal mopes into Wiseguy's thread, looking deflated and absolutely miserable. Considering that this is a forum for all things that are Smash, Smooth's disappointment clearly relates to the new information that has been doled out by Sakurai and Company. Before the inevitable questions of "why?" and "what's wrong?" are asked, SC weakly gestures to the picture below.*




* Lower lip drawn out and pouting, Smooth stalks off of the center stage and sulks in a sundry corner somewhere.*

>.>; As you can tell, this update has made me sad. I was hoping that Zamus was going to be something that you hold A for, not something that's accessible after a super attack. I'm still hoping that you can freely switch between Samus and Zamus at the character select screen.

Smooth Criminal
I'm sorry you feel disappointed, but I'm not surprised. I saw this one coming ever since the infamous update where Salurai said that Samus would only remove her suit "under certain condiditions." The good news is that "conditions" implies more there is more than one way to make Smaus shed her armour. High dammages might also do the trick, and it's even possible that Zamus will be an ultra-difficult-to-get unlockable character.

But in the end, this is only bad if you plan on playing without items. I love items, so I know I'll be trying to convinve my firends to play with them as much as possible. If players play as Sakurai inytends (with items) then I think Zamus will be a neat addition regardless.

People are counting Geno as a Square rep now? I'd say he's in a completely different class than a 'rep.'
Square can't make any cash off of him without Nintendo's blessing. They've got no use for him whatsoever outside of rereleasing SMRPG on Virtual Console. As far as Squeenix is concerned, Geno's stuffed in a box in a janitor's closet somewhere, and if Sakurai wants to walk in and dust him off with their easily-given permission, hey! ;) More marketing for when they pop SMRPG on the VC.

Which is quite different from, say, Chocobo or Black Mage, who ARE major trademarks and would require a bevy of legal fees and time to make sure nobody's stepping on anybody elses toes by letting them appear in a Wii casual fighting title. ESPECIALLY with FF: Dissidia coming out on PSP. There's a chance they wouldn't let that happen at all, so as hardcore FF fans have to get their fix with a game by Square and not a guest appearance in another fighting game that's already going to sell millions of copies.


But...yeah. I play Samus now and then, and this transformation thing is getting me a little bummed. As much as I trust Sakurai...are you really going to tell me that I can't use her FS if I don't want to have to fight as a different character entirely?
I agree that Geno is in a completely different class. If Sakurai is looking for a character to represent Square, then he will likely be looking for someone like Black Mage. If he is looking for an awesome-yet-obscure character from Nintendo's past, then Geno has a good chance - even though he is technically owned by Square.

The PSP fighter is an interesting point. It is possible that Square might be reluctant to make any of their characters available for Brawl when they have their own similar game in the works....

The Zamus transformation will probably only last until you are KO'd, and her enhanced speed and transfigurable pistol likely make her a useful fighter in her own right. So, personally, I have no probelm with it.
 

LukeFonFabre

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I'd still like it if there was a way to start off as ZS Samus from the go a la Shiek, rather than wait for the elusive Smash ball to appear and fight everyone else for it. Though the beam is pure ownage, Pit looks like he's about to disintegrate. The more I think about, the more I like the addition, but I've been pretty psyched to play ZS Samus that I'd be miffed if you had such limited access to her.

Still, it means the chances of another Metroid character are pretty much guaranteed now, so come on Ridley:chuckle:
 

Smooth Criminal

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It's not that I don't wanna play with items, Wisey. I personally have nothing against playing with items, FFAs, and all that jazz every so often. I'm far from being like Dylan and most of the "pros" littered throughout the board that consider items to be verboten (I do take tournaments seriously---kinda. I mean, I play to win but if I lose that's okay too---chilling with a bunch of dorks like myself who enjoy an awesome game really rounds out the experience for me). It's just Zamus seems really cool and I was hoping for a more complete answer as per her availability. Quite frankly, I was going to give Zamus a shot right after Metaknight and end up making her my secondary character for tourney play (perhaps my primary character, if she plays to my liking). But now, well...

...hell. I'm being so bloody negative. Lol. Answers will be more forthcoming in the future, no doubt.

Smooth Criminal
 

Copperpot

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The update (as some of you have already said) near completely reiterates what I had guessed when I first came on-board here, even what you mentioned, Wisey, about her suit breaking off after taking so much damage.

The only problem this poses, if you lose the transformation after losing a stock, is that players are only going to be able to use her at mid to high percentages. I can already picture a multitude of situations where said players will get to throw off the Varia Suit and immediately get killed afterward, preventing them from being able to do anything at all.

This is, however, the best possible way he could have implemented a transformation. It addresses some of the key issues that arose with the Zelda/Shiek switching, mainly that there is no switching altogether. Basically, if players had their choice, one would always be picked over the other, where Sakurai has now made it clear that, if you're going to play the character, you're going to play both sides of the character.

Another aspect it helps to resolve: if Zamus is anything like Shiek, opponents are going to hate her. At least this time if you have to fight "Shiek", you get a decent percentage lead on her.

And lastly, this adds an overall unpredictability to Samus' character. With Zelda, you knew what she was going to do, it was pretty much the same thing every time. Now, players fighting against Samus are going to have to make a pretty big adjustment mid-game to accomodate for the change from a long-ranged opponent to a 'kick-you-in-the-face' opponent.
 

LukeFonFabre

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I'm not sure I understand Copperpot. I don't see how Samus is necessarily in high percentages when she uses her FS, seeing as theoretically they can be used at 0% seeing as its item based.
 

Copperpot

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I'm not sure I understand Copperpot. I don't see how Samus is necessarily in high percentages when she uses her FS, seeing as theoretically they can be used at 0% seeing as its item based.
Yeah, but I'm going to assume that in most battles I won't be expecting a Smash Ball to pop up right as the match starts. I would make a wager that the majority of fights will be well on their way before this can even be pulled off.
 

LukeFonFabre

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Depends how random they are. And depending on when it appears you could be very healthy when you pick it up, if it appears shortly after you got ko'd.

Still, I get the feeling that the transformation is permanent for the rest of the match. Once you turn into ZS Samus that's it until it's finished, but that's just the impression I get.
 

jimmysilverrims

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It would be an interesting Ace-In-The Hole, Samus is taking so much damage (We'll say 150)that she's going to be KO'd any second now. She recieves a punch to the back. Her suit falls off and her percentage is restored to half of it's original state (75) and she's back to fighting. Or perhaps instead of being halved her percentage would go down at a fairly quick rate as Zamus in enveloped in a light, but she is vulnerable and if is hit it will slow to a halt.
 

Copperpot

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I highly doubt that the transformation is permanent, and the best reason I can come up with to counter it is a simple question. Why would it be? If you can come up with a decent reply to that in any way, shape, or form, then continue to have your doubts, but if you can't answer it (honestly), I suggest that you rethink your predictions.

Do we all think Sakurai is stupid or something? Take a look at the Zero Suit Samus thread; it's filled to the brim with a bunch of whiners and nay-sayers.

Next time something happens that we all don't quite expect, try having a bit of faith in his decision before going off the deep end and making radical claims about 'game balance being in jeopardy'.

(I'm not speaking to anyone specifically, but our group as a whole.)
 

Wrath`

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its permenat because you can throw the leftovers of the armor around. If she was going to transform back,well wouldnt she need thoese?
 

LukeFonFabre

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Because why would Samus regain her armour just because she's been Ko'd? We already have experience with transformation characters, so tell me, pick Zelda as a character, then transform into Sheik and get Ko'd. When you respawn, do you revert back to Zelda? No, you don't, you're still Shiek. I imagine the same principle applies here, you just have much less freedom in transforming.

And no, I don't think Sakurai is stupid. But even the most intelligent of people can make poor decisions, and I'm honestly don't think that limiting a new character, especially one that he's hyped up so much, to something that he's already given the impression is not going be frequent is the best decision regarding ZS Samus. True, we don't know that she is limited to FS' yet, and I do have faith in Sakurai that he wants to make this game as fun as possible, but if the game's released and ZS Samus is only accessible through the Zero Beam, then I'll still consider it a poor decision on Sakurai's behalf.
 

Masque

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Do we all think Sakurai is stupid or something? Take a look at the Zero Suit Samus thread; it's filled to the brim with a bunch of whiners and nay-sayers.

Next time something happens that we all don't quite expect, try having a bit of faith in his decision before going off the deep end and making radical claims about 'game balance being in jeopardy'.

(I'm not speaking to anyone specifically, but our group as a whole.)
QFT, my friend. Despite the recent deconfirmations of fairly popular candidates (neither of which were recognized on Sakurai's poll, however) and the questions left in the wake of today's update, I still trust Sakurai's judgment. It seems to me as though he's pulling out all the stops for this game, and I'm more than satisfied with what I have seen thus far. All the spazzes need to calm down for a moment and wait for the next update. Who knows? It might hold all the answers.
 

Copperpot

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Because why would Samus regain her armour just because she's been Ko'd? We already have experience with transformation characters, so tell me, pick Zelda as a character, then transform into Sheik and get Ko'd. When you respawn, do you revert back to Zelda? No, you don't, you're still Shiek. I imagine the same principle applies here, you just have much less freedom in transforming.
If you should take ANYTHING from this update, it would be that this transformation is nearly nothing like Zelda/Sheik, and comparing it to such (in this light) is most likely doing the concept an injustice.

I'd imagine that there are multiple ways to make the transformation happen, but all of these conditions are determined by the battle, not the player. As such, when the player dies, they automatically default back to the character they started the match with (assuming you can choose). Saying that, in this particular case, Samus is like Zelda in which she should retain whatever her form was when she died is like saying that other characters should retain damage through death.

And no, I don't think Sakurai is stupid. But even the most intelligent of people can make poor decisions, and I'm honestly don't think that limiting a new character, especially one that he's hyped up so much, to something that he's already given the impression is not going be frequent is the best decision regarding ZS Samus. True, we don't know that she is limited to FS' yet, and I do have faith in Sakurai that he wants to make this game as fun as possible, but if the game's released and ZS Samus is only accessible through the Zero Beam, then I'll still consider it a poor decision on Sakurai's behalf.
Who says that this is limiting anything? All of these preconceived notions of limitation and wrong-doing are coming waaaaaay to early to even consider as rational or well-found. The Zero Suit could very-well be the best thing to happen to the character in Smash; for all we know, Samus could be top-tier just because of this change. But the most important thing to remember (especially considerring this past week's updates) is that we're most likely going to be wrong either way, and Sakurai could be moving in a completely different direction from what we've predicted.
 

LukeFonFabre

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If you should take ANYTHING from this update, it would be that this transformation is nearly nothing like Zelda/Sheik, and comparing it to such (in this light) is most likely doing the concept an injustice.
Why is it an injustice. They are both transformations and they both yield the same results. The only thing that's different is the method.

I'd imagine that there are multiple ways to make the transformation happen, but all of these conditions are determined by the battle, not the player. As such, when the player dies, they automatically default back to the character they started the match with (assuming you can choose). Saying that, in this particular case, Samus is like Zelda in which she should retain whatever her form was when she died is like saying that other characters should retain damage through death.
Not really. Zelda transforms into Shiek and remains that way until you change back, even if you are ko'd. I'm comparing this situation with her because it's the most similar example we have. We know FS' aren't a common thing, and it would really emphasize the disadvantage of the Zero Beam by being stuck with ZS Samus for the rest of the match. Having Samus restored to her former self after being ko'd kind of defeats that purpose.

You still haven't really given a reason why Samus should regain her armour when she's ko'd.


Who says that this is limiting anything? All of these preconceived notions of limitation and wrong-doing are coming waaaaaay to early to even consider as rational or well-found. The Zero Suit could very-well be the best thing to happen to the character in Smash; for all we know, Samus could be top-tier just because of this change. But the most important thing to remember (especially considerring this past week's updates) is that we're most likely going to be wrong either way, and Sakurai could be moving in a completely different direction from what we've predicted.
It's limiting because Sakurai has pretty much stated that FS' aren't a common thing, and so far it's the only known way to access ZS Samus. Her accessibility is more limited than other characters as of right now, and until more light is shed on the matter, that's all we have to go now.

True, we can't say that this is the only way to access ZS Samus and it could benefit Samus in the long run, and I know Sakurai isn't stupid enough and I trust his overall decisions for the game (this is really the only update I've felt was a bad move so far, so it's not like he's given me reason to doubt him). But that still doesn't change the fact that currently I'm not fond of the idea, and until we get some reassurance that ZS Samus is obtainable in another way, then I doubt I ever will be.
 

Copperpot

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Understandable. Granted that he's only given this much information on the matter, I could see how it's easy to be a bit 'suspicious' on the matter. I just like to take the reserved approach to most situations.

One thing I've noticed that hasn't been brought up yet: this is an update commenting specifically on Samus' Final Smash, meaning that if there is any other method of transformation, he most likely won't touch base with that until a bio is made for Zero Suit Samus.
 

LukeFonFabre

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That's wise really. I guess I'm just a bit worried, though I'm sure Sakurai knows what he's doing regarding this whole matter. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

And someone on another thread pointed out how it was odd that despite this update, we weren't given a ZS Samus bio, which I feel is an interesting point. Perhaps there is more waiting to be revealed with this now inevitable update.
 

Wiseguy

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Some good predictions there but I think Falco and Shiek will still be in the Smash Bros Series
Thank you.

It's limiting because Sakurai has pretty much stated that FS' aren't a common thing, and so far it's the only known way to access ZS Samus. Her accessibility is more limited than other characters as of right now, and until more light is shed on the matter, that's all we have to go now.

True, we can't say that this is the only way to access ZS Samus and it could benefit Samus in the long run, and I know Sakurai isn't stupid enough and I trust his overall decisions for the game (this is really the only update I've felt was a bad move so far, so it's not like he's given me reason to doubt him). But that still doesn't change the fact that currently I'm not fond of the idea, and until we get some reassurance that ZS Samus is obtainable in another way, then I doubt I ever will be.
I agree that this is going to limit Zero Suit Samus' usefulness - but isn't that a good thing?

Zelda/Sheik was a total distaster becuase players could freely switch between the two. They were originally supposed to be one character with two movesets that the player could swap back and forth as the situation warented. Instead what happened was that everyone simply chooses the character they like best and ignored the other.

The reason I think that most people dislike this update is becuase they are still thinking of Samus and Zamus as separate characters. In fact, Samus and Zamus make up a single character - just with a wider range of abilities than before. By taking the actual transformation out of players hands, Samus users are going to have to master an entirely new set of abilities if they truly want to master the character.

Whether or not this decision is ultimately for the better remains to be seen, but I think this could be another stroke of genius on Sakurai's part.
 

LukeFonFabre

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I'd still like it if there was a way to actually choose ZS Samus from the go, if it turns out FS' aren't as common as we'd like them to be. Though it's nice to see that Sakurai has put a fresh new touch on transformation.

I also wonder if we are going to get even more instances of bringing items into a match, now that we have Wario's chopper and Samus' armour cluttering up the stage.
 

Wiseguy

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I'd still like it if there was a way to actually choose ZS Samus from the go, if it turns out FS' aren't as common as we'd like them to be. Though it's nice to see that Sakurai has put a fresh new touch on transformation.

I also wonder if we are going to get even more instances of bringing items into a match, now that we have Wario's chopper and Samus' armour cluttering up the stage.
That's an interesting point. In the past, Link could creat his own bombs (a sort of item...) and Peach would occasionally pull a Bob-bomb out of nowhere... if sakurai is trying to blur the lines between character and item we could see more examples like Wario's chopper and Samus' armour.

I hope more of the Smash community at least gives the items a chance before turning them off. From the looks of it, Sakurai has put alot of thought in making the items varied and fun.
 

LukeFonFabre

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I'll definitely be keeping items on for a while, and I want to perform everyones FS at some point (not see, I want the satisfaction of using it against something>:D). That and I want to see all the AT's, as I doubt they'll reveal every single one of them on the website.

That and each item they've revealed so far looks like they could potentially fun.
 

Gypsy Lee

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I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere I heard that items were originally allowed in tournaments, but due to random Bomb-ombs and exploding capsules killing people, they had to be removed.

BTW Wiseguy, the link you added to that moveset is broken, and you spelled my name wrong XD.
 

Wiseguy

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Thank you for chiming in on a few points there, Wise. You covered a couple of things I was hinting at, but couldn't manage to express how I wanted to.
No prob. You made some great points.

I'll definitely be keeping items on for a while, and I want to perform everyones FS at some point (not see, I want the satisfaction of using it against something>:D). That and I want to see all the AT's, as I doubt they'll reveal every single one of them on the website.

That and each item they've revealed so far looks like they could potentially fun.
100% agreed. The Final Smash, Assist Trophy, Gooey Bomb and rocket launcher all look positively brilliant.

@ GL: I did? Sorry, let me check...
 

Elysium

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Well, the last update was.... interesting. I suppose I'm worried that Zamus will be the new sheik, and therefore possibly "overshadow" Samus. Though it's kinda confusing since we still don't know everything on FS's. It also just might be that I really wanted Zamus and Samus as separate slots. This will require some more thought.
 

Copperpot

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Ah, the good old days of item fights. I remember playing some 2v2's with a few of my buddies, and my teammate (no matter what he did) would always manage to somehow hit me with the bombs he threw. Now, it's become a sort of running joke we have.

In cases like that, items are well worth having on, because they provide more fun and laughter than they do inconveniences; however, in most 1v1's I prefer to have (most of) them turned off to take out the 'X-factor' out of the results.
 

O D I N

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It's possible they might have something were you hold the "A" button, and can be Zamus. Just listing a possibility(?). They've shown too many screenshots with Zamus in it for that not to happen. That'd be really stupid to have a character you can only access after you use an item. What about us non-item playing type pokemon?
 

Elysium

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Well still with the A trick, what if an Avid Samus player doesn't like Zamus playing style. It forces them to either learn Zamus, or avoid the smash ball. (assuming it can't be turned off.)

Actually, I just realized something. This isn't as bad as people (and myself) thought. *As long* as the FS can be turned off, there's really nothing to worry about. The only time we need to be worried is when all the info on FS's is out, and we learn if they can be turned off (or can't).

.... Well I thought I had it figured out.... oh well
 

the grim lizard

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It's possible they might have something were you hold the "A" button, and can be Zamus. Just listing a possibility(?). They've shown too many screenshots with Zamus in it for that not to happen. That'd be really stupid to have a character you can only access after you use an item. What about us non-item playing type pokemon?
This is the best argument for alternative Zamus playability case IMO. She has been in about half of the screenshots we've seen. And something tells me that they didn't just do it cuz they liked her so much. I'm thinking there's an easy way to become Zamus, whether it be in game or before starting. I'm not sure I care. As I've said all along, I trust what Sakurai has decided to do. And just like with everything else, I don't think we see the full story in the updates. They're just a taste.
 
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