Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Ferro De Lupe]

If they do a character, and my theory is right, I'm thinking it will be Yoshi.

 

[DonkeySmasher]

i would prefer to see a very original fs for dk maybe some kind of crazy combo in which he throws punches kicks the opponent around the air then slam him down into the ground and finish off with a big punch

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...commence the drum roll.

Is it a character...?

* The buzzer sounds.*

Nope. Another "how to" tutorial. And this one is a bit strange...actually holding in a button for a series of consecutive attacks?

o.o;

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

His bongo drums, of course. sound shock waves.

His coconut gun...

His invincibility barrel...

He asks Crancky to give them a lecture...

 

[Wiseguy]

Urgh... thanks alot Sakurai. That update was totally worthy staying up until 4:00 AM for. LAME!

Goodnight all.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

His coconut gun...(can fire in spurts!)

(If he shoots ya, it's gonna hurt!)

His invincibility barrel...

He asks Crancky to give them a lecture...

Fixed.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

Urgh... thanks alot Sakurai. That update was totally worthy staying up until 4:00 AM for. LAME!

Goodnight all.

*Laughs at WiseGuy*

We get them at 2...

 

[Phaazoid]

i get them at 11. but my parents make me go to bed at 10. and i'll bet the reason they have confirmed bowser and zelda (and more soon to come) is because these are the ones playable in the E3 demo. i'll bet yoshi and donkey kong will be confirmed too. and fox's Final Smash. as for DK's final smash... Giga Donkey Kong!. nahh, krankey kongs lectures are scarier.

 

[Copperpot]

From what I've read in an interview (on IGN, I think), there will not be a playable demo at E3. Nintendo says that they may have it in a playable form at another upcoming event, though (my guess would be E4). Due to the obscurity of Sakurai's little 'information dribs', I'm going to go out on a limb and theorize that Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Peach and Ness will show up as returning cast. Then, he'll most likely show off four or five newcomers (Ridley, Lucario/Deoxys, King Dedede, Bowser Jr., and a third party character).

Wisey,
The pics look good. If anything, they at least provide for the 'feel' of the stages, with the Float Islands being cascade in a dusky atmosphere, and Mt. Dedede shown way up on top of a mountain with wind, clouds, and the whole she-bang.

 

[Wiseguy]

I was going to do an Assist Trophy list update today, but that update completely sapped me of my spirit. An update devoted entirely to Standard Combos? Really?

i get them at 11. but my parents make me go to bed at 10. and i'll bet the reason they have confirmed bowser and zelda (and more soon to come) is because these are the ones playable in the E3 demo. i'll bet yoshi and donkey kong will be confirmed too. and fox's Final Smash. as for DK's final smash... Giga Donkey Kong!. nahh, krankey kongs lectures are scarier.

No E3 demo, but we'll hopefully see a new trailer and a release date. I suspect Sakurai will give us lame updates this whole week in the leadup to the Wednedday Press conference.

From what I've read in an interview (on IGN, I think), there will not be a playable demo at E3. Nintendo says that they may have it in a playable form at another upcoming event, though (my guess would be E4). Due to the obscurity of Sakurai's little 'information dribs', I'm going to go out on a limb and theorize that Captain Falcon, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Peach and Ness will show up as returning cast. Then, he'll most likely show off four or five newcomers (Ridley, Lucario/Deoxys, King Dedede, Bowser Jr., and a third party character).

Wisey,
The pics look good. If anything, they at least provide for the 'feel' of the stages, with the Float Islands being cascade in a dusky atmosphere, and Mt. Dedede shown way up on top of a mountain with wind, clouds, and the whole she-bang.

I'm glad you like the pic.

My prediction fr the trailer (assuming there is one...) is that we with see all the returning characters and 5 newcomers (Diddy, Ridley, Ike, Olimar and Sonic).

 

[McFox]

Here's the thing though. Geno wasn't actually nominated the second-most number of times. If I understand correctly (and I'm pretty sure that I do (not meaning to sound cocky, just saying that I think I understand what happened)), Sakurai not only had his poll, but he then had a blog of sorts where he commented on the poll. This is why I say he's interested in Geno. Not only was Geno nominated a lot, but Sakurai actively commented on him four times in the blog. The only other character he commented on more than that was Dedede. I don't know exactly what was said.

So there you go. When people say X character was nominated Y number of times, that's not actually accurate. The truth is, we have no idea how many times each character was nominated, because Japanese gamers were simply asked to mail Sakurai. There's no way to track that. We can only track how many times he talked about the entries he received. So he posted things about Dedede 5 times, and Geno (and I believe Diddy was the other second place) 4 times. To my knowledge, he didn't comment on Black Mage once, even though somebody surely suggested him.

 

[Wiseguy]

Here's the thing though. Geno wasn't actually nominated the second-most number of times. If I understand correctly (and I'm pretty sure that I do (not meaning to sound cocky, just saying that I think I understand what happened)), Sakurai not only had his poll, but he then had a blog of sorts where he commented on the poll. This is why I say he's interested in Geno. Not only was Geno nominated a lot, but Sakurai actively commented on him four times in the blog. The only other character he commented on more than that was Dedede. I don't know exactly what was said.

So there you go. When people say X character was nominated Y number of times, that's not actually accurate. The truth is, we have no idea how many times each character was nominated, because Japanese gamers were simply asked to mail Sakurai. There's no way to track that. We can only track how many times he talked about the entries he received. So he posted things about Dedede 5 times, and Geno (and I believe Diddy was the other second place) 4 times. To my knowledge, he didn't comment on Black Mage once, even though somebody surely suggested him.

I'll admit it's a fair argument. Why would Sakurai mention an obscure character like Geno four times if he wasn't at least CONSIDERING putting him in Brawl?

However, I think there is a distinction between characters Sakurai would LIKE to include and ones he actually will. Consider MetaKnight and King Dedede. Sakurai feels a special attachment to these chracters, since he had a hand in creating them. One would think that if he were choosing characters for Melee based solely on which ones that he wanted to include - these two would most certainly have made the cut. To me, this demonstrates that Sakurai isn't so self serving as to include obscure characters like he likes at the expense of influential and popular characters. For this reason, I suspect that if Sakurai decided to include one Square character, he would consider not only which one he considers to be the mot unique and appealing - but also which one that has a prominent place in videogame history like Mario, Link and Solid Snake. By this standard, Geno falls short.

HOWEVER, Smash is not only about the Marios of the videogame industry, but the Pits as well. In other words, we are bound to see one or two obscure-yet-awesome retro characters like ROB, Balloon Fighter and Mac. So perhaps it is these characters that Geno is competing with rather than Black Mage or Sora who would serve as a representative of Square Enix.

 

[Masque]

HOWEVER, Smash is not only about the Marios of the videogame industry, but the Pits as well. In other words, we are bound to see one or two obscure-yet-awesome retro characters like ROB, Balloon Fighter and Mac. So perhaps it is these characters that Geno is competing with rather than Black Mage or Sora who would serve as a representative of Square Enix.

R.O.B. will be an AT, guaranteed. As much of the cameo spotlight as he has been receiving lately, his appearances are always a way of saying, "Hey! Remember me, the NES robot? Haha, yeah, good times, man."

On the other hand, BF and Mac have pretty good chances. Rumor has it that BF was included in the Melee beta (hence the alternate music on Icicle Mountain). Sakurai has also commented on the Punch-Out!! series' international popularity, and his excitement about the character of Mac himself bodes well for his inclusion this time around.

 

[Copperpot]

I'll admit it's a fair argument. Why would Sakurai mention an obscure character like Geno four times if he wasn't at least CONSIDERING putting him in Brawl?

I don't know. Why would he?

However, I think there is a distinction between characters Sakurai would LIKE to include and ones he actually will. Consider MetaKnight and King Dedede. Sakurai feels a special attachment to these chracters, since he had a hand in creating them. One would think that if he were choosing characters for Melee based solely on which ones that he wanted to include - these two would most certainly have made the cut. To me, this demonstrates that Sakurai isn't so self serving as to include obscure characters like he likes at the expense of influential and popular characters. For this reason, I suspect that if Sakurai decided to include one Square character, he would consider not only which one he considers to be the mot unique and appealing - but also which one that has a prominent place in videogame history like Mario, Link and Solid Snake. By this standard, Geno falls short.

It's been mentioned that the reason that Sakurai didn't include other characters from his creative pallette was because he didn't necessarily feel that it was his place to put a bunch of his own work in a game with the higher-up Nintendo characters. Now that he's reached the point where he's ready to pursue other projects, the gloves are coming off, which can already be told by the inclusion of Metaknight.

Now, if what I wrote above is true, then Sakurai's reached the point where he is drawing some focus onto characters that he shows interest in. We know that he's shown interest in Geno through his comments on his Blog.

HOWEVER, Smash is not only about the Marios of the videogame industry, but the Pits as well. In other words, we are bound to see one or two obscure-yet-awesome retro characters like ROB, Balloon Fighter and Mac. So perhaps it is these characters that Geno is competing with rather than Black Mage or Sora who would serve as a representative of Square Enix.

Could be, but I'd rather take it from the point of view that Geno is a third-party character first and a retro character second. He's competing for that third-party slot before you even think about whether he's a classic or newbie to the gaming industry. However, when combining that with the fact that Sakurai has expressed that he's 'aiming' for characters that some will have to do some research in order to recognize, Geno holds more than a stick to some of the other really well known characters like Megaman and Sonic.

 

[Arteen]

HOWEVER, Smash is not only about the Marios of the videogame industry, but the Pits as well. In other words, we are bound to see one or two obscure-yet-awesome retro characters like ROB, Balloon Fighter and Mac. So perhaps it is these characters that Geno is competing with rather than Black Mage or Sora who would serve as a representative of Square Enix.

Geno is still at another disadvantage, because he's not just an obscure character, but a supporting character as well. Balloon Fighter, Mac, and Pit are all in starring roles in their respective games.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Arteen's right, if we're gonna go retro, at least start with the guys who have a video game! Geno is only a secondary character in his appearances with Nintendo and really should be the last third party/retro person put in, seeing as we don't want to waste a space that could be used for Little Mac, Baloon Fighter, or Sonic and Megaman

 

[Johnknight1]

Prepare to be amazed, astonished, destroyed in a nuvlear-like Phazon explosion in Metroid Prime 3 (somehow...), and have your throat slit by a wild Pichu (then Pichu will achieve god tier status, lol!)! Johnknight1's updated character predictions are here, and here they are! Enjoy, and of course, responses are always welcome:

Mario series: (5)
-Mario: Original, O and Doc NEEDS to be an alternate outfit! That is a must!
-Luigi: Still somewat a clone Super Luigified Clone, lol!
-Bowser: Original, and is the best looking character in Brawl yet!
Peach: Original
Bowser Jr.: The last character who I added to my list, who's pretty neat, but NO SHADOW MARIO AT ALL! HA!

Donkey Kong series: (3)
-Donkey Kong: Prepare to rap, and play your bongos, because DK is back again!
-Diddy Kong: Don't mess with this monkey, because you won't get him off your back!
-K. Rool: After comparing the K. Rool and Dixie Kong fanbase and reconizability, K. Rool wins by a good margin. Bowser Clone

Despite me picking K. Rool, Dixie still has a decent shot, so don't count her out!

The Legend of Zelda series: (5)
-Link: Check
-Zelda: Anyone want to bet a million dollars Zelda won't make it...aww too bad!
-Wind Waker/cel-shaded Link: Luigified-Link clone
-Ganondorf: With his sword, otherwise he'll be a super Luigified Capt. Falcon clone.
-Midna (w/t or w/o Wolf Link): Regardless of having Wolf Link or no, I think Midna makes the cut.

If Midna doesn't make it Shiek or Vatti will.

Metroid series: (4)
-Samus: Check
-ZSS: Check
-Ridley: Almost...got...him...
-Dark Samus: The main villian of Prime 1 (in a sense), 2, and the upcoming 3 shall pwn! Luigified-Samus clone

Kirby series: (3)
-Kirby: Give him his SSB64 skills, or give me death (minus the cheap spams)
-Meta Knight: slash slash slash slash! SUPER COMBO!
-King Dedede: Long name, lots of skill, plus a mallet. What's to hate=???

Star Fox series: (4)
-Fox: In
-Falco: In, and redone! Luigified-Fox clone
-Krystal: Why not, she has a original and awsome staff, and a original=pwnage!
-Wolf: O YA! Fox clone

Pokemon: (5)
-Pikachu: Confirmed
-Jigglypuff: It shall prove it's pwnage yet again, of course!
-Lucario: Super desired, and I doubt it won't make it!
-Mewtwo: Redemption! Revenge of the lowest tier character of all!
-Deoxys: Insanely cool and awsome! somewat Luigified-Mewtwo clone

F-Zero: (1)
-Capt. Falcon: With Goroh out of the hunt, only Pico is cool. And since I hate Black Shadow more than any character wanted for Brawl yet, I'm not even going to consider him. Sega always finds a way to think of lame villians, lol!

Earth Bound: (2)
-Ness: Super COOL!
-Lucas: Awsome, and makes me and my fellow Earth Bound cult followers happy! No more Pikachu sacrificing! YAE! Ness Clone

Fire Emblem: (3)
-Ike: Of course
-Marth: Awsome, as always!
-Undecieded 3rd FE slot: I prefer Roy returning, but Black Knight, Hector, and Sigurd would be awsome as well! Regardless, they will be a Marth, maybe Ike Clone.

Other Nintendo characters:
Wario Ware characers: (1)
-Wario: In, and gassy!

Yoshi Series: (1)
-Yoshi: dAair shall return in all it's glory, and who knows...Yoshi could actually get SUPER good moves this time!

Pikmin Series:
-Capt. Olimar: Pikmin everywhere, o Pikmin everywhere! Prepare to be eaten by canibolist creatures! *evil laugh*

Other Nintendo Characters: (4)
-Pit: Ya, he's in.
-Miis: Now that I have created mutant Miis, I'll throw people off their game with them! Don't steal my idea, and I didn't say this...or did I=???
-Ice Climbers: The most original characters IMO, are back for another pwnageable round (I made that word up, lol! XD)
-G&W: Why not=??? He's easy to make, and he's super awsome!

3rd Party Characters: (4)
-Solid F****** Snake: Watch out Pichu...*Snake slits Pichu's throat!*
-Sonic: Most desired character, and why shouldn't he be in=???
-Megaman: MEGAMAN! YEll it everyone! MEGAMAN!
-Geno: Due to Goroh not making it, Geno makes the cut! YAE Geno!

Characters that Still have a Good Shot IMO:
-Ballon Fight
-Mach Rider
-Little Mac
-Johnknight1 (okay not really)
-Pichu: (just jk, just jk...don't eat me!)
-Pico: Maybe, but seriously unlikely.
-Blazekein: In case Deoxys doesn't make it
-Crono: In the case Square gets a rep and it's not Geno!


37 Original Moveset Characters, and 9 Clones (still=HA!) 46 characters, and IMO it is a amazing list! (then again I made it, lol! )

Now that's an even more impressive list than I've ever made before, and who wouldn't be satified/extremely happy with 80%-90% of that list AT LEAST=??? Any thoughts, comments, questions, or ratings are well appreciated!

O, and Wiseguy, Shiek players are on a downfall. Here is the 2006-2007 official SWF tier list thread (link). It is basically based off which characters are used most and are most successful in tournaments, and Shiek players are on a downfall, for sure, though Shiek is still the 3rd highest due to good recovery, insane combos, and the Zelda/Shiek transformation mindgames.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=81928

^^^^ Just thought I'd throw that in there for you Wiseguy, for the heck of it! I thought it was intresting at least... Also, other people might find it intresting as well if they haven't already seen it.

@ Arteen
Obscure isn't a reason, it's a opinion, and he was about as important as Mario in that game. Not quite as important, but very important in terms of story development, much like Midna was in Twilight Princess. Therefore he is a major character, and when it comes down to it, I think possible newcomers to SSB will be primalarly judged by 5 things!

They are:

-Reconizability: How reconizable they are, especially towards smashers. Geno is somewat reconizable, and with his huge fanbase, he's extremely reconizable.

-How big/important they are in Video Gaming: Was their roll big, and important in a game or games they starred in, and did it advance video gaming in any way, shape, or form positively. Geno was important to the story, and SMRPG set the limit for RPGs, as well as became a instant classic.

-Originality: How original are they=??? Geno is super original, so he passes this one effortlessly.

Fanbase: Having a fanbase is huge, and Geno is virtually saved by a ginaormous fanbase! Definitely one of the biggest!

How much a character is wanted or not (I guess you can call it acceptance): We won't see Waluigi In Brawl because more people don't want him than want him, but for Geno, defnitely more want him than not, or are neutral. Overall, Geno is accepted very positively by classic gamers, most SSB fans, and even Sakurai himself!

My verdict for Geno: He passes, but he has a 3rd party category and a bunch of other contenders to deal with, and his chances are uncertain. However, I think he'll make it, but again, this is debateable!

-Johnknight1

 

[goodkid]

I hope another Metroid series bounty hunter will appear. Sylux is a good example.

A pic. of him

 

[Arteen]

Star Fox series: (4)
-Fox: In
-Falco: In, and redone! Luigified-Fox clone
-Krystal: Why not, she has a original and awsome staff, and a original=pwnage!
-Wolf: O YA! Fox clone

Two Fox clones seems like overkill, even if one is Luigified. Also, Wolf looks and is built basically the same as Fox, so I don't think he would be that interesting of an addition if he played almost exactly the same as Fox as well. I also don't think Star Fox deserves four reps.

F-Zero: (1)
-Capt. Falcon: With Goroh out of the hunt, only Pico is cool. And since I hate Black Shadow more than any character wanted for Brawl yet, I'm not even going to consider him. Sega always finds a way to think of lame villians, lol!

That was Nintendo who created Black Shadow for F-Zero X. SEGA only designed 11 of the 40-or-so characters in GX. Regardless, I expect Falcon as the only playable character as well. Ganondorf's moveset could fit Pico well, but I still doubt he'd make it in as playable.

I'd consider characters from other Nintendo franchises as well. Except for basically Olimar and third-party predictions, your predicted roster seems to expand on all the established franchises from Melee without adding more.

 

[Wiseguy]

R.O.B. will be an AT, guaranteed. As much of the cameo spotlight as he has been receiving lately, his appearances are always a way of saying, "Hey! Remember me, the NES robot? Haha, yeah, good times, man."

On the other hand, BF and Mac have pretty good chances. Rumor has it that BF was included in the Melee beta (hence the alternate music on Icicle Mountain). Sakurai has also commented on the Punch-Out!! series' international popularity, and his excitement about the character of Mac himself bodes well for his inclusion this time around.

Yeah, I'd say at least one more retro character will appear in the roster - and those three all stand a pretty good shot. Regardless of which one makes it (I still think ROB is the best choice...) the other two will surely be assist trophies.

It's been mentioned that the reason that Sakurai didn't include other characters from his creative pallette was because he didn't necessarily feel that it was his place to put a bunch of his own work in a game with the higher-up Nintendo characters. Now that he's reached the point where he's ready to pursue other projects, the gloves are coming off, which can already be told by the inclusion of Metaknight.

Now, if what I wrote above is true, then Sakurai's reached the point where he is drawing some focus onto characters that he shows interest in. We know that he's shown interest in Geno through his comments on his Blog.

I think MetaKight's inclusion has more to do with the fact that a bigger roster makes one or two more characters from the Kirby series justifiable. So Meat wasn't JUST original and liked by Sakurai, but he was a worthy addition in his own right. Geno's inclusion would be due to grace alone, not becuase the character plays a particularily big role in the Mario series.

Could be, but I'd rather take it from the point of view that Geno is a third-party character first and a retro character second. He's competing for that third-party slot before you even think about whether he's a classic or newbie to the gaming industry. However, when combining that with the fact that Sakurai has expressed that he's 'aiming' for characters that some will have to do some research in order to recognize, Geno holds more than a stick to some of the other really well known characters like Megaman and Sonic.

Sakurai has always included a few obscure characters in Smash. Ness in SSB64 and Icew Climbers in Melee are examples of this. But whether Geno is competing with Balloon Fighter and ROB or Black Mage and Sora - the conclusion is the same: he has an uphill battle (or did, since the roster is onbviously finalized at this point.)

Geno is still at another disadvantage, because he's not just an obscure character, but a supporting character as well. Balloon Fighter, Mac, and Pit are all in starring roles in their respective games.

Arteen's right, if we're gonna go retro, at least start with the guys who have a video game! Geno is only a secondary character in his appearances with Nintendo and really should be the last third party/retro person put in, seeing as we don't want to waste a space that could be used for Little Mac, Baloon Fighter, or Sonic and Megaman

Yeah, there is that going against him as well. Think about it: if Geno hadn't been mentioned more by Sakurai, would he now be considered any more likely than Malo?

Prepare to be amazed, astonished, destroyed in a nuvlear-like Phazon explosion in Metroid Prime 3 (somehow...), and have your throat slit by a wild Pichu (then Pichu will achieve god tier status, lol!)! Johnknight1's updated character predictions are here, and here they are! Enjoy, and of course, responses are always welcome:

Mario series: (5)
-Mario: Original, O and Doc NEEDS to be an alternate outfit! That is a must!
-Luigi: Still somewat a clone Super Luigified Clone, lol!
-Bowser: Original, and is the best looking character in Brawl yet!
Peach: Original
Bowser Jr.: The last character who I added to my list, who's pretty neat, but NO SHADOW MARIO AT ALL! HA!

Donkey Kong series: (3)
-Donkey Kong: Prepare to rap, and play your bongos, because DK is back again!
-Diddy Kong: Don't mess with this monkey, because you won't get him off your back!
-K. Rool: After comparing the K. Rool and Dixie Kong fanbase and reconizability, K. Rool wins by a good margin. Bowser Clone

Despite me picking K. Rool, Dixie still has a decent shot, so don't count her out!

The Legend of Zelda series: (5)
-Link: Check
-Zelda: Anyone want to bet a million dollars Zelda won't make it...aww too bad!
-Wind Waker/cel-shaded Link: Luigified-Link clone
-Ganondorf: With his sword, otherwise he'll be a super Luigified Capt. Falcon clone.
-Midna (w/t or w/o Wolf Link): Regardless of having Wolf Link or no, I think Midna makes the cut.

If Midna doesn't make it Shiek or Vatti will.

Metroid series: (4)
-Samus: Check
-ZSS: Check
-Ridley: Almost...got...him...
-Dark Samus: The main villian of Prime 1 (in a sense), 2, and the upcoming 3 shall pwn! Luigified-Samus clone

Kirby series: (3)
-Kirby: Give him his SSB64 skills, or give me death (minus the cheap spams)
-Meta Knight: slash slash slash slash! SUPER COMBO!
-King Dedede: Long name, lots of skill, plus a mallet. What's to hate=???

Star Fox series: (4)
-Fox: In
-Falco: In, and redone! Luigified-Fox clone
-Krystal: Why not, she has a original and awsome staff, and a original=pwnage!
-Wolf: O YA! Fox clone

Pokemon: (5)
-Pikachu: Confirmed
-Jigglypuff: It shall prove it's pwnage yet again, of course!
-Lucario: Super desired, and I doubt it won't make it!
-Mewtwo: Redemption! Revenge of the lowest tier character of all!
-Deoxys: Insanely cool and awsome! somewat Luigified-Mewtwo clone

F-Zero: (1)
-Capt. Falcon: With Goroh out of the hunt, only Pico is cool. And since I hate Black Shadow more than any character wanted for Brawl yet, I'm not even going to consider him. Sega always finds a way to think of lame villians, lol!

Earth Bound: (2)
-Ness: Super COOL!
-Lucas: Awsome, and makes me and my fellow Earth Bound cult followers happy! No more Pikachu sacrificing! YAE! Ness Clone

Fire Emblem: (3)
-Ike: Of course
-Marth: Awsome, as always!
-Undecieded 3rd FE slot: I prefer Roy returning, but Black Knight, Hector, and Sigurd would be awsome as well! Regardless, they will be a Marth, maybe Ike Clone.

Other Nintendo characters:
Wario Ware characers: (1)
-Wario: In, and gassy!

Yoshi Series: (1)
-Yoshi: dAair shall return in all it's glory, and who knows...Yoshi could actually get SUPER good moves this time!

Pikmin Series:
-Capt. Olimar: Pikmin everywhere, o Pikmin everywhere! Prepare to be eaten by canibolist creatures! *evil laugh*

Other Nintendo Characters: (4)
-Pit: Ya, he's in.
-Miis: Now that I have created mutant Miis, I'll throw people off their game with them! Don't steal my idea, and I didn't say this...or did I=???
-Ice Climbers: The most original characters IMO, are back for another pwnageable round (I made that word up, lol! XD)
-G&W: Why not=??? He's easy to make, and he's super awsome!

3rd Party Characters: (4)
-Solid F****** Snake: Watch out Pichu...*Snake slits Pichu's throat!*
-Sonic: Most desired character, and why shouldn't he be in=???
-Megaman: MEGAMAN! YEll it everyone! MEGAMAN!
-Geno: Due to Goroh not making it, Geno makes the cut! YAE Geno!

Characters that Still have a Good Shot IMO:
-Ballon Fight
-Mach Rider
-Little Mac
-Johnknight1 (okay not really)
-Pichu: (just jk, just jk...don't eat me!)
-Pico: Maybe, but seriously unlikely.
-Blazekein: In case Deoxys doesn't make it
-Crono: In the case Square gets a rep and it's not Geno!


37 Original Moveset Characters, and 9 Clones (still=HA!) 46 characters, and IMO it is a amazing list! (then again I made it, lol! )

Now that's an even more impressive list than I've ever made before, and who wouldn't be satified/extremely happy with 80%-90% of that list AT LEAST=??? Any thoughts, comments, questions, or ratings are well appreciated!

I have to say, that is a mighty fine list. I would be satisfied with that certainly - though I'd be in favor of cutting characters like Marth and ICs in favor of reps from different series.

However, I think the significance of Goroh's trophification is greater than you realize. 1 F-Zero rep is the bare minimum we could have expected for that series, and if ALL the series are treated so harshly, we can also anticipate that all the other series will also be given the bare minnimum. I also think the Assist Trophy sort of bursts my earlier theory of TONS of playable clones. It's looking more like we'll see a smaller, more unique playable roster with several hundred runnersup included as ATs.

O, and Wiseguy, Shiek players are on a downfall. Here is the 2006-2007 official SWF tier list thread (link). It is basically based off which characters are used most and are most successful in tournaments, and Shiek players are on a downfall, for sure, though Shiek is still the 3rd highest due to good recovery, insane combos, and the Zelda/Shiek transformation mindgames.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=81928

^^^^ Just thought I'd throw that in there for you Wiseguy, for the heck of it! I thought it was intresting at least... Also, other people might find it intresting as well if they haven't already seen it.

Well, Sheik is hardly in free fall, but I guess it is interesting that he/she/it/potatoe's ultra cheap movset is slightly less effective than it once was.

Yeah, yeah. Skill trumps character selection, yadda yadda. I'll still cheer when that abomination is axed.

@ Arteen
Obscure isn't a reason, it's a opinion, and he was about as important as Mario in that game. Not quite as important, but very important in terms of story development, much like Midna was in Twilight Princess. Therefore he is a major character, and when it comes down to it, I think possible newcomers to SSB will be primalarly judged by 5 things!

Midna was MORE important to TP's story than Link. I beleive Geno and Malo were not the main focus of SMRPG, but just sidekicks to Mario in his quest.

They are:

-Reconizability: How reconizable they are, especially towards smashers. Geno is somewat reconizable, and with his huge fanbase, he's extremely reconizable.

-How big/important they are in Video Gaming: Was their roll big, and important in a game or games they starred in, and did it advance video gaming in any way, shape, or form positively. Geno was important to the story, and SMRPG set the limit for RPGs, as well as became a instant classic.

-Originality: How original are they=??? Geno is super original, so he passes this one effortlessly.

Fanbase: Having a fanbase is huge, and Geno is virtually saved by a ginaormous fanbase! Definitely one of the biggest!

How much a character is wanted or not (I guess you can call it acceptance): We won't see Waluigi In Brawl because more people don't want him than want him, but for Geno, defnitely more want him than not, or are neutral. Overall, Geno is accepted very positively by classic gamers, most SSB fans, and even Sakurai himself!

My verdict for Geno: He passes, but he has a 3rd party category and a bunch of other contenders to deal with, and his chances are uncertain. However, I think he'll make it, but again, this is debateable!

-Johnknight1

I think Geno fails in all these areas, save for originality.

Recognizability: His has a distinct look certainly, but if you showed his picture to 10 random people on the street - you'd be lucky if one knew who he was.

Important to videogaming: A supporting character in a single game and a cameo in a second in not terribly important in comparison to legends like Mario, Link, Snake, Simon Belmont, etc. The Mario RPGs have a ton of unique sidekicks (Paper Mario 2 in particular) so Geno isn't all that important.

Originality: He's about as unique as they come. That alone might be enough to get him a spot on the roster.

Fanbase: "Huge"? Like, Pikachu huge? Final Fantasy huge? Sorry, but the only place where they talk about him to the best of my knowlege in Smashboards and other Smash sites. Geno has a small, but devoted cult following.

I hope another Metroid series bounty hunter will appear. Sylux is a good example.

A pic. of him

Metroid Hunters is a great game and Sylux is one of my favorite hunters. I think he could make a great playable character in Brawl. However, given the series small following in Japan, I think his chances are small. But I could definitely see all the Hunters appearing as Assist trophies.

 

[Devastlian]

However, I think the significance of Goroh's trophification is greater than you realize. 1 F-Zero rep is the bare minimum we could have expected for that series, and if ALL the series are treated so harshly, we can also anticipate that all the other series will also be given the bare minnimum. I also think the Assist Trophy sort of bursts my earlier theory of TONS of playable clones. It's looking more like we'll see a smaller, more unique playable roster with several hundred runnersup included as ATs.

Several hundred? I somehow doubt we'll get more ATs than there were trophies in SSBM...<_< And hopefully they just won't crap out that many just using every throw-away character they can find and make ones with awesome, obscure characters since, barring the adventure mode enemies and the characters/items/other content in the game itself that were made into trophies, all of the trophies in SSBM were awesome and obscure.

 

[Mini Mic]

I personally wouldn't expect any more then 20-30 AT's, their not like trophies like melee where they can just design them, they actually have to be animated this time and could you see something like a gamecube as an AT?

Yay 100 posts!!

 

[Devastlian]

Speaking of which...

Looks like they bumped up the textures for Samurai Goroh and Dr. Wright's trophies and added animation. Samurai Goroh's still crouch-liked and Dr. Wright's hand looks frozen in place. So...they probably just blew through all the cool/doable SSBM trophies and turned them into ATs...or something.

Regardless, this is a rather cool update.

 

[Wiseguy]

Several hundred? I somehow doubt we'll get more ATs than there were trophies in SSBM...<_< And hopefully they just won't crap out that many just using every throw-away character they can find and make ones with awesome, obscure characters since, barring the adventure mode enemies and the characters/items/other content in the game itself that were made into trophies, all of the trophies in SSBM were awesome and obscure.

Maybe SEVERAL hundred is an exageration...

There were 290 trophies in Melee. I think we could see 150-200 trophies n Brawl - each representing a character from videogame history. From the Goomba to the Happy mask Salesman and everyone in between!

I personally wouldn't expect any more then 20-30 AT's, their not like trophies like melee where they can just design them, they actually have to be animated this time and could you see something like a gamecube as an AT?

Yay 100 posts!!

Maybe. We'll have to wait and see.

Speaking of which...

Looks like they bumped up the textures for Samurai Goroh and Dr. Wright's trophies and added animation. Samurai Goroh's still crouch-liked and Dr. Wright's hand looks frozen in place. So...they probably just blew through all the cool/doable SSBM trophies and turned them into ATs...or something.

Regardless, this is a rather cool update.

I must admit, for a second I failed to notice the item icon above him and was gacking at the revelation that Dr. Wright was joiining the roster. Just when I was kicking myself for not even putting the character in my runnerup list, I noticed that he was only an AT. I agree that this is a great update - even it odesn't tell us much about the final roster will look like...

A Hitler mustache and a masive green fro? Deadly combination.

 

[Masque]

Say what you will about Dr. Wright's popularity, but I classify him as rather obscure. It seems like the REALLY niche characters are likely to be ATs. Pit and IC, however, were both from notable Nintendo games, more "retro" than "niche". Seeing Dr. Wright gives me hope that the more popular--but still obscure-ish--characters have a chance at the roster (save Goro, of course), while really unlikely candidates are going to be ATs.

 

[DonkeySmasher]

sakurai did say that many of the ATs will be noticed only by the hardcore crowd therefore i'm placing my bets on old games

examples are wart, stanley, and retro heroes (mach rider)

so when i saw wright i was not surprised he is the only true staple to the simcity series and its retro

with ATs i expect the unexpected (although minions are both expected and probable chain chomp FTW)

 

[Numa Dude]

I have another stage idea. The chamber of the sages in the sacred realm from OoT. You would start off in the chamber of the sages fighting on the triforce pedestal that Link stands on when he saves a sage (it would of course be bigger than it is in OoT) and in the background would be the six pedestals the sages stand on. The sages will sometimes appear on there pedestal and fire a blast of energy at you. After a while of fighting the screen would glow white and transform into the different boss rooms in the different temples in the order forest, fire, water, spirit and shadow. While in these rooms the bosses you fought in these rooms will sometimes appear and attack. Phantom Ganon will appear and shoot balls of magic, Volvagia will knock down rubble from the ceiling, The water temple boss (forgot the name) will grab a character and shake him up, Twinrova would shoot different elemental beams at you and Bongo Bongo will continuously hit the stage making the characters unbalanced and harder to controll. After the shadow temple it would return back to the chamber of the sages.

 

[DonkeySmasher]

here's another stage idea k rool's pirate ship

imagine the ship in rainbow cruise only in a much larger scale (a bit bigger than corneria) there will be a large mast in the center of the stage giving you two platforms also there will be barrels somewhere acting as a wall

finally if k rool is not in the game he'll occasionally fall from the sky he himself will do some damage. after he falls there are two target signs on the boat in which cannonballs will fall from these do a lot of damage since there's a warning
this IMO will make good hazards that increase strategy on the map the song will be a remake of the final boss song in dkc

 

[RBinator]

After reading the first two posts with the predictions and the latest few posts in this topic, I don't think I really missed anything important by skipping over a thousand posts did I? I guess it's time for me to open some cans of oversize worms, with a pretty long post on what I think about some of the characters talked about, which will likely lead to debates that been happening for a long time now.

Zelda & Sheik: More people playing as Zelda if her alter ego was removed? For an easier example, take everything Melee was and remove Sheik from that, with Zelda still being underpowered. Now why would more people want to play as her when her [overpowered] form is not there? What would stop people from not playing as Zelda altogether? Now moving onto Brawl, they could balance the difference between Zelda and Sheik like how they originally intended without Sheik being so overpowered compared to Zelda. Then again, with or without Sheik, Zelda herself might likely be buffed up from her Melee counterpart.

Before the whole "TP Zelda can't transform into OoT Sheik" argument comes up, just because Brawl Zelda is based off of TP Zelda, along with the whole TP theme going on, doesn't mean they can't create a TP Sheik. That thought may seem odd to many fans who strongly stick with their TP Zelda reasoning if the transformation got in Brawl, but why should a matter of story have such a big impact on game play? No character in the Smash series (except the likes of Master Hand and others) ever stays completely true to how they were in their own games, since breaking apart more the others. Besides, it's not like we don't already have things that doesn't seem logically happening in Smash, like Link and Young Link co-existing, and more. Not to mention one of Zelda's most unique factors would be gone of Sheik was a different character or gone altogether. Simply put, logic seems to have very limited place in the Smash series.

Since Zamus will likely be brought up, why should Zamus be a Sheik clone when she could be unique in her own way? Regardless, I'm beginning to seriously wonder about Sheik showing up, as if they don't want to stop the fandom from discussing it by saying if she will be in or not. As for your hatred of Sheik being overpowered and easy to master (which I won't argue), simple, give her the nurf treatment. One more thing, would the creative mind of Sakurai let something as silly as this stop him from putting in Sheik if he wanted too? "Well, I'm not allow to make a TP style Sheik or remotely go outside the TP theme, so I'm gonna scrap a pretty original character. Not being in a new game for nine years is also automatic a reason to get rid of her. I'm also getting rid of Giga Bowser as Bowser's final smash because Bowser could never do that in any Mario games." Not that anyone here likely knows exactly how he thinks, but he sure has proven to be unique and careful in pleasing as many fans as possible.

Midna & Wolf Link: I'm pretty mixed about if Minda should show up alone or on top of Wolf Link. I have a feeling both solo Minda and the pair up is not very likely to show up compared to just one or the other. Sure Link and Young Link were different characters on Melee, but wasn't the "clones" put in to full up character slots and due to time limitations? With a lot more development time for Brawl, would they really resort to filling character slots again with "clones" now that they have a lot more development time?

Wolf: Why is he listed as a Fox clone? What's to stop him from getting a new move set, even if Falco doesn't return (I'll get to the bird soon enough)?

Black Knight: As much as I'm a fan of him, I wonder about how likely he is as a playable character since his originality factor, game play wise, doesn't seem much different from many of the other sword users. What's up with listing him as an Ike clone, when Ike on your list already sounds like a Luigi version of Marth? A clone of a clone? Being able to teleport and have ranged sword attacks alone could lead to a new move set.

R.O.B.: I have a feeling he's more likely to show up as an AT and have the "remember me?" factor then as a playable character, but then again, my feeling could be wrong and he could in fact be playable. But for now, I stand by my feelings.

Ice Climbers: One of the most original characters getting the cut? What's wrong with them? Obscure and retro ain't the same thing and they fit the latter.

Pichu: What's wrong with the purposely underpowered and joke character? There's quite a bit of bragging when you beat people around your skill level using such a character. It's like Dan from the Street Fighter games. If Pichu does get the boot, I think another "joke" character (doesn't have to be a Pokémon) should take his place.

Falco: *joins the angry mob despite him not being my main or even secondary* Well, Falco is pretty popular too just like Wolf, plus I think he had quite a bigger role in the series then Wolf. Falco also has a pretty unique playing style that's a lot different from Fox's.

Geno: I never heard of him before he was talked about almost as much as Sonic. I think there would be riots if he didn't get in as playable. If I'm not mistaken Sakurai doesn't consider him 3rd party, plus I'm sure there will be one or more characters who are the exception to the "rules" that affects how most other characters get in. I think Geno could easily be one of them.

 

[Wiseguy]

Say what you will about Dr. Wright's popularity, but I classify him as rather obscure. It seems like the REALLY niche characters are likely to be ATs. Pit and IC, however, were both from notable Nintendo games, more "retro" than "niche". Seeing Dr. Wright gives me hope that the more popular--but still obscure-ish--characters have a chance at the roster (save Goro, of course), while really unlikely candidates are going to be ATs.

I would certainly hope that is the case.

Still... poor Goroh.

sakurai did say that many of the ATs will be noticed only by the hardcore crowd therefore i'm placing my bets on old games

examples are wart, stanley, and retro heroes (mach rider)

so when i saw wright i was not surprised he is the only true staple to the simcity series and its retro

with ATs i expect the unexpected (although minions are both expected and probable chain chomp FTW)

Expecting the unexpected is always a wise decision when talking about Sakurai.

I have another stage idea. The chamber of the sages in the sacred realm from OoT. You would start off in the chamber of the sages fighting on the triforce pedestal that Link stands on when he saves a sage (it would of course be bigger than it is in OoT) and in the background would be the six pedestals the sages stand on. The sages will sometimes appear on there pedestal and fire a blast of energy at you. After a while of fighting the screen would glow white and transform into the different boss rooms in the different temples in the order forest, fire, water, spirit and shadow. While in these rooms the bosses you fought in these rooms will sometimes appear and attack. Phantom Ganon will appear and shoot balls of magic, Volvagia will knock down rubble from the ceiling, The water temple boss (forgot the name) will grab a character and shake him up, Twinrova would shoot different elemental beams at you and Bongo Bongo will continuously hit the stage making the characters unbalanced and harder to controll. After the shadow temple it would return back to the chamber of the sages.

I'm really, really liking this idea. That stage would be a perfect homage to OoT and it would be a perfect fit for the OoT comilatition theme reveled on dojo a few weeks ago. I'll include this on my list in my next update.

here's another stage idea k rool's pirate ship

imagine the ship in rainbow cruise only in a much larger scale (a bit bigger than corneria) there will be a large mast in the center of the stage giving you two platforms also there will be barrels somewhere acting as a wall

finally if k rool is not in the game he'll occasionally fall from the sky he himself will do some damage. after he falls there are two target signs on the boat in which cannonballs will fall from these do a lot of damage since there's a warning
this IMO will make good hazards that increase strategy on the map the song will be a remake of the final boss song in dkc

I find it hard to concieve of DK maps, but this one is a fine concept that could be well implememnted. Admittedly, this idea most likely wouldn't be implemented in addition to my Tetra's ship idea, but your idea is no less likely than mine. I'll definitely be puttin this on my lit as well.

After reading the first two posts with the predictions and the latest few posts in this topic, I don't think I really missed anything important by skipping over a thousand posts did I? I guess it's time for me to open some cans of oversize worms, with a pretty long post on what I think about some of the characters talked about, which will likely lead to debates that been happening for a long time now.

Well to be fair, along the way some people convinced me to change my list for some reason or another - though I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to wade through that ocean of text.

Thanks for taking the time to read my opinions offer your own.

Zelda & Sheik: More people playing as Zelda if her alter ego was removed? For an easier example, take everything Melee was and remove Sheik from that, with Zelda still being underpowered. Now why would more people want to play as her when her [overpowered] form is not there? What would stop people from not playing as Zelda altogether? Now moving onto Brawl, they could balance the difference between Zelda and Sheik like how they originally intended without Sheik being so overpowered compared to Zelda. Then again, with or without Sheik, Zelda herself might likely be buffed up from her Melee counterpart.

Well, in my experience Zelda is used even less than other equally useless characters like Mewtwo and Pichu - becuase few can resist the urge to press down B and play as her cheap alter ego. So all things being equal, Zelda would be used much more if she weren't joined at the hip with Sheik. And if she were buffed, as you pointed out, she would be used even more.

Before the whole "TP Zelda can't transform into OoT Sheik" argument comes up, just because Brawl Zelda is based off of TP Zelda, along with the whole TP theme going on, doesn't mean they can't create a TP Sheik. That thought may seem odd to many fans who strongly stick with their TP Zelda reasoning if the transformation got in Brawl, but why should a matter of story have such a big impact on game play?

No character in the Smash series (except the likes of Master Hand and others) ever stays completely true to how they were in their own games, since breaking apart more the others. Besides, it's not like we don't already have things that doesn't seem logically happening in Smash, like Link and Young Link co-existing, and more. Not to mention one of Zelda's most unique factors would be gone of Sheik was a different character or gone altogether. Simply put, logic seems to have very limited place in the Smash series.

*Rubbs hands together with glee* Finally, a person who is pro-Sheik and willing to debate me about it.

First of all, you draw a distinction between Brawl Zelda and TP Zelda where none exists. The character model that Sakurai chose is based on the character in Twilight Princess - a separate individual entirely from OoT Zelda/Sheik. Having TP Zelda transform into a different person would be like Mario transforming into Wario.

As for "TP Sheik" the character doesn't exist, plain and simple. Why would they remake an OoT character in a Twilight Princess graphical style when there is anything but a shortage of genuine Twilight Princess characters who are far more worthy and unique than Sheik?

Many people assume that because Sheik is a transformation that she should be treated like an ability and not a character. But Sheik has a unique moveset that would require just as much time to program as any other unique character - and with only a minor supporting role in a decade old game under his/her/its/potatoe's belt she is not worthy of returning.

You are correct that Smash is not meant to be taken too seriously and no character is completely true to their game of game of origin - but that doesn't mean that a character's moveset can't be as remenisent of their game as possible. In cases where it is easiest to do so, Sakurai has been known to fudge continuity for the sake of fun gameplay (giving Ness Paula's Earthbound Psi powers, etc.) but I can't see Sakuraio and team doing extra work to include a gameplay mechanic that would be so obviously out of place.

Sheik WAS what made Zelda so unique in Melee - but with the inclusion of Zamus as a transformation, Zelda/Sheik would no longer be nearly as unique.

Since Zamus will likely be brought up, why should Zamus be a Sheik clone when she could be unique in her own way? Regardless, I'm beginning to seriously wonder about Sheik showing up, as if they don't want to stop the fandom from discussing it by saying if she will be in or not.

As for your hatred of Sheik being overpowered and easy to master (which I won't argue), simple, give her the nurf treatment.

One more thing, would the creative mind of Sakurai let something as silly as this stop him from putting in Sheik if he wanted too? "Well, I'm not allow to make a TP style Sheik or remotely go outside the TP theme, so I'm gonna scrap a pretty original character. Not being in a new game for nine years is also automatic a reason to get rid of her. I'm also getting rid of Giga Bowser as Bowser's final smash because Bowser could never do that in any Mario games." Not that anyone here likely knows exactly how he thinks, but he sure has proven to be unique and careful in pleasing as many fans as possible.

Zamus would not be a Sheik clone, but from what we've seen of her attacks, she fairly similar to Sheik in her fighting style. Throw in the fact that she is a transformation and it seems pretty obvious that Zamus was designed to soften the blow of Sheik's demise by being a replaceent for players who mained Sheik.

As you pointed out, noone knows what Sakurai thinks about Sheik. Inevitably, unique characters are going to be cut. There are only so many places on the roster and only so much time to devote to creating the roster. There is a list a mile long of potential newcomers who would be far more unique than Sheik and are far more worthy of being included in the greatest game series of all time.

It's a bit of a false comparison to equate Sheik with Giga Bowser. The former is a character with a separate and unique moveset while the later is a a bigger, uglier version of Bowser with the same moveset. There is also the fact that transforming into Giga Bowser is an ability unique ti Smash, which doesn't make it out of place. For example, Captain Falcon doesn't have many abilities in his game of origin to construct a moveset from so it makes sense to give him a completely madeup attack like Falcon Punch. But giving him an ability belonging to another character, like Samus' arm cannon, would be completely out of place.

Midna & Wolf Link: I'm pretty mixed about if Minda should show up alone or on top of Wolf Link. I have a feeling both solo Minda and the pair up is not very likely to show up compared to just one or the other. Sure Link and Young Link were different characters on Melee, but wasn't the "clones" put in to full up character slots and due to time limitations? With a lot more development time for Brawl, would they really resort to filling character slots again with "clones" now that they have a lot more development time?

Given the uniqueness of Midna/Wolflink I think Sakurai won't worry about having two versions of the same Link.

As for whether clones will be included, your guess is as good as mine. Clones require significantly less time to program than unique characters so logically thet can include more characters in the roster with a few clones - regardless of how much time they have. I origianlly had 9 clones on my list, but the revealation of Assist trophies now makes me beleive that characters not deemed worthy of a unique moveset will simply be made ATs rather than clones.

Wolf: Why is he listed as a Fox clone? What's to stop him from getting a new move set, even if Falco doesn't return (I'll get to the bird soon enough)?

Wolf is a clone on my list because he has a far greater chance of making the cut as a clone than he does as an original character. Unlike Krystal, he has never demonstrated any unique abilities to set himself apart in the Starfox games and as a clone he could be included in a fraction of the time. I was also trying to stay within a 40 character limit (while operating under the assumption that clones require a third of the development time as one unique character).

Black Knight: As much as I'm a fan of him, I wonder about how likely he is as a playable character since his originality factor, game play wise, doesn't seem much different from many of the other sword users. What's up with listing him as an Ike clone, when Ike on your list already sounds like a Luigi version of Marth? A clone of a clone? Being able to teleport and have ranged sword attacks alone could lead to a new move set.

Becuase Ike will most likely not be a Marth clone, but a Marth replacement. Thus, Brawl has one unique FE character and one clone - just like Melee. Ike has ranged sword attacks as well, so the only original move BK needs is a teloport as his up-B.

R.O.B.: I have a feeling he's more likely to show up as an AT and have the "remember me?" factor then as a playable character, but then again, my feeling could be wrong and he could in fact be playable. But for now, I stand by my feelings.

It could go either way, but I'll go out on a limb and say he will be the G&W replacement. No character is better suited to represent the NES era than he.

Ice Climbers: One of the most original characters getting the cut? What's wrong with them? Obscure and retro ain't the same thing and they fit the latter.

Nothing is wrong with ICs. ICs are both obscure and awesome - as are several dozen other retro Nintendo characters who deserve a turn in the spotlight. I just think that retro charcaters deserve a single guest appearance and nothing more.

Pichu: What's wrong with the purposely underpowered and joke character? There's quite a bit of bragging when you beat people around your skill level using such a character. It's like Dan from the Street Fighter games. If Pichu does get the boot, I think another "joke" character (doesn't have to be a Pokémon) should take his place.

I'd be fine with another joke character taking Pichu's place. In fact, whatever 4 Pokemon reps fans want would be fine with me.

Falco: *joins the angry mob despite him not being my main or even secondary* Well, Falco is pretty popular too just like Wolf, plus I think he had quite a bigger role in the series then Wolf. Falco also has a pretty unique playing style that's a lot different from Fox's.

I wouldn't say he's all that different from Fox in melee. There are differences, certainly, but he's still a Fox clone.

Frankly, I don't care which of the two is included as Fox's clone (which is what I feel they would be, though it is POSSIBLE to give a unique moveset to either or both). I chose Wolf becuase he hasn't yet had a turn in the sptlight.

Geno: I never heard of him before he was talked about almost as much as Sonic. I think there would be riots if he didn't get in as playable. If I'm not mistaken Sakurai doesn't consider him 3rd party, plus I'm sure there will be one or more characters who are the exception to the "rules" that affects how most other characters get in. I think Geno could easily be one of them.

There will undoubtebly be riots when and if Geno is MIA, but I still think his chances have been overblown. Whether or not Sakurai sees him as 3rd party is irrelivant becuase he is 100% owned by Square nevertheless.

Geno stands a fair chance, but I'm going to remain the skeptic to prepare people for the possibility of his absense from the roster.

 

[OysterMeister]

Well, I'm pro-Sheik and willing to join the debate. Hopefully this time around I can do a better job of it, huh?

Basically, I see it as this: there are two ways to approach smash. I'm gonna call them as the practical approach and the romantic approach.

With the practical approach, you ignore issues like continuity, relevance to the series, and so on. The only concern is the gameplay of Smash Bros. Under this light, Sheik has no reason to be cut. She's a unique and popular character, who's only real issues were being overpowered (which can easily be solved in Brawl with some well place nerfing), and tied to a weaker character (which can be solved with liberal use of buffing). I suppose you could also argue that Sheik should be cut to make room for an even more unique character who's even more fun to play as, but this is just opinion. There's no way to truly prove that one character is better than another until Brawl comes out, and by then it might be too late.
Now, with the romantic approach, things are trickier. This is where issues like continuity and being faithful to a series come into play. The biggest argument seems to be that Sheik has no right to play hooky with two Zeldas.
But come on. The Zelda series doesn't have separate Zeldas and Links anymore than it has a consistent timeline. And the Zelda series' timeline has holes big enough for the Titanic to sink in.
The Zelda series is more like a constant retelling of what is basically the same story (Link must save Zelda from Ganon). That's why the series was several sequels old before Miyamoto even admitted that, yes, these Links were all unconnected to each other. Under all the changed graphics and edited backstory, you're still Link, you're still gonna save that princess Zelda, and you still plan on beating Ganon.
So I see no reason to deny Zelda some feature or ability just because it spanned a game or two. Sakurai seemed to pull that brown hair out of nowhere. If you really must, take that as edvidence that this Zelda isn't from TP. But so far as I'm concerned, it's all the same Zelda.

Oh, as as long as this makes for a decent segue...
I do catagorize Sheik as an ability of Zelda. But not in the practical sense. Practically, she's an intierly different character, with her own moveset, and friends, and keys...
But romantically, Sheik is an enchantment Zelda can put on herself. And I think this point of view can make a difference. Midna, Zant, Darunia, Wolf Link, Shadow Link... All these Zelda characters are minor compared to the big three. And honestly I'd include Sheik right in there with all of them as too insignificant or fleeting to make the Brawl roster except for one fact: which is that Sheik is really Zelda. And for me that's enough.
Practically, Sheik is a unique and popular character who only wants for a little balancing. Romantically, Sheik is a unique and awesome transformation ability of Zelda.

 

[DonkeySmasher]

you know what let sheik come back just nerf it to kingdom come also i can humiliate it with bumpers and banana peels

however i agree that sheik has no more originality or series reason to be in brawl

 

[Blackadder]

Her smashing time is up, I think.
Unless she is made into a sperate character, it would make NO sense for this incarnation of Zelda to change.
800th post FTW! :D

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Whoah, here I come, I guess. Though the stability of Zelda's timeline is a little questionable, I've got no doubts that it's pretty important to Aonuma and friends. It -has- been stated that there is a definitive documented timeline. Sakurai's known for his networking abilities, (I remember it said that he's in charge of Smash in the first place because he's so good with communicating and working with a large number of people,) and I think he's going to go on with Aonuma's wishes, if we're talking about continuity of character.

WW Zelda alone is the biggest reason why I really do think every Zelda is pretty seperate. You can say every Link is pretty much the same, sure. They don't speak and they always do the same things. But this isn't so much the case with Zelda, and the one from WW's a big example of that. She was a completely seperate person from the identity of what it is to be 'Zelda.'

That's not to say I'm 100% certain there won't be a Zelda/Sheik in Brawl. I think Sakurai could ignore the timeline, 'pretend' that this TP Zelda somehow learned some Sheikah magic, or anything he wants to do. I do think those are both pretty unlikely, though.

(It's also worth noting that, according to Aonuma, TP actually supposedly takes place in an 'alternate timeline' version of OoT.

Spoiler

Whereas Ganondorf successfully stormed Hyrule in OoT, he failed and was exiled by Hyrule's sages in TP.

This could make all of this speculation just a little more hairy.)


As far as Geno is concerned, as I keep saying, I think his technical third party status is highly different from any other third party character we've been seeing up 'til now. For Squeenix, Geno is literally deadweight. They're not going to make "Geno's Big Adventure," and start raking in the cash. It seems completely reasonable that if Sakurai really wanted Geno in, he'd only have to place one or two calls, have lunch somewhere, sign a quick piece of paper. No more than a few hours, tops, and likely not a dime of legal fees (seeing as I don't even know how often they use lawyers in Japan, considering the lax copyright laws.)

Think about it this way. Geno did appear in Superstar Saga, with the permission of Square, in the tutorial for a highly unimportant minigame. If they were willing to go through the trouble of getting 'permission' just for that, how much trouble could it have really been, and wouldn't it be even a quarter of that for a man with connections like Sakurai's?

To be realistic, the only way Square CAN profit off of Geno is to republish (DS or VC,) SMRPG with Nintendo's blessing. What better marketing for this than to have Geno in Brawl, give it a month for official "Who the heck is that?" time and then plop SMRPG on VC? ESPECIALLY if they monogram his trophy with "From SMRPG, SNES, 199X, Also AVAILABLE SOON ON VIRTUAL CONSOLE WEE-OOH WEE-OOH BUY NOW!"

 

[FrozenRoy]

Well...you said about stage ideas, so here is mine.

Sim City(Yes, this was inspired by Dr. Wright):

The landscape would be the top of various buildings. They would range from the largest being a skyscraper(Think Fourside's Skyscraper tops) and the smallest being about the house of Onett. Sense the earth is here, there is not bottom K.O.'s. Higher vertical ceiling then Horizontal. However, the twist is there every once in a while a random effect will happen. They are...
Fire: One of the buildings catch fire. If you touch the on fire building during this time, you will take 10% damage and be flung a little bit aways. After a while a fire-team will come out and put it out.
Riot: A bunch of sim-citizens come out from the buildings with Torchs and start throwing them. Each torch does about the same as Mr. G&W's Sausages in damage and knockback, with a little more variety in angles. After a while they will either run of the stage or the Police will come by and "escort" them out.
Plane Crash: A basic plane crashes into one of the buildings and explodes. Thing like the Banzai Bill from Peach's Castle.
Twister: A twister rips through the city, flinging anyone it touches around and doing 15% damage. Think of it like the Tornado from Hyrule Castle in SSB64.
Flood: A bunch of water rushes out around the screen. Anyone caught in the water will be shot up to the next building in knockback. During the time the water remains, the ground becomes K.O.able. After a while, the water will rush out.
The background for this will be another city, where sometimes one of the above effects will look like it is happening sometimes(And the flood will humorisly rush to the background city after the effect happening to the Sim City your in).

Also...for ATs, what about the Elite Beat Agents? Their game is very popular, they could do a ton of things and they are 1st party(I think). I am sure this has already probably been suggested...

 

[Wiseguy]

Well, I'm pro-Sheik and willing to join the debate. Hopefully this time around I can do
a better job of it, huh?

Yo OysterMeister. Welcome to the debate. Let's see if we can't put this issue to rest
once and for all...

Basically, I see it as this: there are two ways to approach smash. I'm gonna call them
as the practical approach and the romantic approach.

With the practical approach, you ignore issues like continuity, relevance to the series,
and so on. The only concern is the gameplay of Smash Bros. Under this light, Sheik has
no reason to be cut. She's a unique and popular character, who's only real issues were
being overpowered (which can easily be solved in Brawl with some well place nerfing),
and tied to a weaker character (which can be solved with liberal use of buffing). I
suppose you could also argue that Sheik should be cut to make room for an even more
unique character who's even more fun to play as, but this is just opinion. There's no
way to truly prove that one character is better than another until Brawl comes out, and
by then it might be too late.

Okay, but even by this standard isn't worthiness a factor as well? Shouldn't a character
be judged primarily on their imporance in videogames first and foremost? Should Hammer
Bros and Mario be judged as equal contenders for a spot on the roster because they have
an equal potentil for a fun and unique moveset?

Any way you look at it, including Sheik would be at the expense of a more worthy Zelda
representative. Midna was the main character in most recent Zelda game: Twilight Princess (a game that Sakurai seems the most favorable towards) Tingle is most reacurring character in the series aside from the Triforce Trio and even Vaati and Skull Kid have some importance. Sheik, on the other hand, is only the alter ego to a supporting character in a single game that was released ten years ago. Since programing a unique moveset (even one from Melee) is a time consuming process and ANY character has an equal potential for a unique moveset, why should this character be given special attanetion at the expense of Midna, Tingle, Vaati or Skull Kid?

Now, with the romantic approach, things are trickier. This is where issues like
continuity and being faithful to a series come into play. The biggest argument seems to
be that Sheik has no right to play hooky with two Zeldas.
But come on. The Zelda series doesn't have separate Zeldas and Links anymore than it
has a consistent timeline. And the Zelda series' timeline has holes big enough for the
Titanic to sink in.
The Zelda series is more like a constant retelling of what is basically the same story
(Link must save Zelda from Ganon). That's why the series was several sequels old before
Miyamoto even admitted that, yes, these Links were all unconnected to each other. Under
all the changed graphics and edited backstory, you're still Link, you're still gonna
save that princess Zelda, and you still plan on beating Ganon.
So I see no reason to deny Zelda some feature or ability just because it spanned a game
or two. Sakurai seemed to pull that brown hair out of nowhere. If you really must, take
that as edvidence that this Zelda isn't from TP. But so far as I'm concerned, it's all
the same Zelda.

Whether or not not you like it, the fact of the matter is that there are separate Zeldas and separate Links. Sure, the series as a whole is pretty convuluted and repetitive (I've found that trying to tie together the LoZ>Zelda 2, the ALttP>LA, OoA/OoS and the MC>FS>FSA story lines to be an excersive in futility) however the main series, which gravitiates around OoT, is pretty straightforward.

OoT has two endings, one where Old Link kills Ganon in the future and another that was created when Zelda sends Link back in time to where they first met as children. In the Future timeline, Ganon is selled away setting the stage for the events in WW and it's upcoming sequel: Phantom Hourglass. In the Past timeline, the events of MM immediately follow the ending of OoT, while Ganondorf (who never achieved world domination) is imprisoned in the Twili Relm by the Seven Sages - as depicted in Twilight Princess.

Thus, the main series does have separate Zeldas and Links, it does have a fixed timeline, the story arch has no big holes in it and all the plots in each game are actually not very similar at all.

But it doesn't matter what you or I think, all that matters is what Sakurai thinks. So let's ask him. Tell me Sakurai, what game is the Link character in Super Smash Bros Brawl from?

The design of this particular Link comes from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess.

Did you catch that? "This particular Link." That wording implies that this Link based on a specific character. Meaning, one of many. So it's safe to assume that sakurai doesn't see the series as one story repeating, with the same Link depicted in different ways, but as a series of different stories with a different Link and a different Zelda.

By the way, Zelda's hair in Twilight Princess is Brown - just like her appearance in Brawl. Further proof that the Zelda in Brawl is the character from Twilight Princess - a separate individual entirely from the Zelda/Sheik in OoT.

=

Oh, as as long as this makes for a decent segue...
I do catagorize Sheik as an ability of Zelda. But not in the practical sense.
Practically, she's an intierly different character, with her own moveset, and friends,
and keys...
But romantically, Sheik is an enchantment Zelda can put on herself. And I think this
point of view can make a difference. Midna, Zant, Darunia, Wolf Link, Shadow Link...
All these Zelda characters are minor compared to the big three. And honestly I'd
include Sheik right in there with all of them as too insignificant or fleeting to make
the Brawl roster except for one fact: which is that Sheik is really Zelda. And for me
that's enough.
Practically, Sheik is a unique and popular character who only wants for a little
balancing. Romantically, Sheik is a unique and awesome transformation ability of
Zelda.

So, the fact that Sheik is the same person as Zelda makes her worthy of being included over Midna, who was the main character in Twilight Princess? If that is the case, why is Sheik any more worthy than Tetra - another one of Zelda's alter egos?

It doesn't matter how you slice it. Practically, romantically, scientifically, hypothetically, mathematically, physiologically, metaphysically, hyperbole, baloney... Sheik is unworthy of returning of appearing in another instalment of Smash Bros.

you know what let sheik come back just nerf it to kingdom
come also i can humiliate it with bumpers and banana peels

however i agree that sheik has no more originality or series reason to be in
brawl

Sheik should not be included in any shape or form, in my view. I'm even opposed to the abomination appearing as an Assist Trophy. Sorry, but any good will good will I may have felt towards the character has evaporated over these past years. DEAH TO SHEIK!

Her smashing time is up, I think.
Unless she is made into a sperate character, it would make NO sense for this incarnation
of Zelda to change.
800th post FTW! :D

A-freakin-Men

Whoah, here I come, I guess. Though the stability of Zelda's timeline is a little questionable, I've got no doubts that it's pretty important to Aonuma and friends. It -has- been stated that there is a definitive documented timeline. Sakurai's known for his networking abilities, (I remember it said that he's in charge of Smash in the first place because he's so good with communicating and working with a large number of people,) and I think he's going to go on with Aonuma's wishes, if we're talking about continuity of character.

WW Zelda alone is the biggest reason why I really do think every Zelda is pretty seperate. You can say every Link is pretty much the same, sure. They don't speak and they always do the same things. But this isn't so much the case with Zelda, and the one from WW's a big example of that. She was a completely seperate person from the identity of what it is to be 'Zelda.'

That's not to say I'm 100% certain there won't be a Zelda/Sheik in Brawl. I think Sakurai could ignore the timeline, 'pretend' that this TP Zelda somehow learned some Sheikah magic, or anything he wants to do. I do think those are both pretty unlikely, though.

(It's also worth noting that, according to Aonuma, TP actually supposedly takes place in an 'alternate timeline' version of OoT.

Spoiler

Whereas Ganondorf successfully stormed Hyrule in OoT, he failed and was exiled by Hyrule's sages in TP.

This could make all of this speculation just a little more hairy.)


As far as Geno is concerned, as I keep saying, I think his technical third party status is highly different from any other third party character we've been seeing up 'til now. For Squeenix, Geno is literally deadweight. They're not going to make "Geno's Big Adventure," and start raking in the cash. It seems completely reasonable that if Sakurai really wanted Geno in, he'd only have to place one or two calls, have lunch somewhere, sign a quick piece of paper. No more than a few hours, tops, and likely not a dime of legal fees (seeing as I don't even know how often they use lawyers in Japan, considering the lax copyright laws.)

Think about it this way. Geno did appear in Superstar Saga, with the permission of Square, in the tutorial for a highly unimportant minigame. If they were willing to go through the trouble of getting 'permission' just for that, how much trouble could it have really been, and wouldn't it be even a quarter of that for a man with connections like Sakurai's?

To be realistic, the only way Square CAN profit off of Geno is to republish (DS or VC,) SMRPG with Nintendo's blessing. What better marketing for this than to have Geno in Brawl, give it a month for official "Who the heck is that?" time and then plop SMRPG on VC? ESPECIALLY if they monogram his trophy with "From SMRPG, SNES, 199X, Also AVAILABLE SOON ON VIRTUAL CONSOLE WEE-OOH WEE-OOH BUY NOW!"

I agree 100% on the Zelda timeline.

As for Geno, I agree that if Sakurai deems him worthy of being included it will happen. It's not like Square seems to value the character a great deal anyway. But I might it quite telling that if Sakurai hadn't mentioned the character specifically, we wouldn't even be talking about him. If Geno is confirmed, I'll be the first to cheer. But for now, I remain the skeptic.

Well...you said about stage ideas, so here is mine.

Sim City(Yes, this was inspired by Dr. Wright):

The landscape would be the top of various buildings. They would range from the largest being a skyscraper(Think Fourside's Skyscraper tops) and the smallest being about the house of Onett. Sense the earth is here, there is not bottom K.O.'s. Higher vertical ceiling then Horizontal. However, the twist is there every once in a while a random effect will happen. They are...
Fire: One of the buildings catch fire. If you touch the on fire building during this time, you will take 10% damage and be flung a little bit aways. After a while a fire-team will come out and put it out.
Riot: A bunch of sim-citizens come out from the buildings with Torchs and start throwing them. Each torch does about the same as Mr. G&W's Sausages in damage and knockback, with a little more variety in angles. After a while they will either run of the stage or the Police will come by and "escort" them out.
Plane Crash: A basic plane crashes into one of the buildings and explodes. Thing like the Banzai Bill from Peach's Castle.
Twister: A twister rips through the city, flinging anyone it touches around and doing 15% damage. Think of it like the Tornado from Hyrule Castle in SSB64.
Flood: A bunch of water rushes out around the screen. Anyone caught in the water will be shot up to the next building in knockback. During the time the water remains, the ground becomes K.O.able. After a while, the water will rush out.
The background for this will be another city, where sometimes one of the above effects will look like it is happening sometimes(And the flood will humorisly rush to the background city after the effect happening to the Sim City your in).

Also...for ATs, what about the Elite Beat Agents? Their game is very popular, they could do a ton of things and they are 1st party(I think). I am sure this has already probably been suggested...

Great concept for a stage. I don't know if we'll see stages for AT characters, but if we do Sim City is a no brainer.

I'm going to update my stage list now, then I'm off to a Smash touney. Ironically, this means I will miss the live feed of the Nintendo press Conferance, but hopefully when I return this evening there will be a new Brawl trailer to drool over.

 

[Phaazoid]

Yay, another pro shieker. welcome to this thread, RBinator. and thanks oystermiester.

@PrinnyFlute
how do you know that TP zelda didn't already know shiekah magic, but didn't use it in the game? smash brothers doesn't have to make sense. pikachu knows more than 4 moves. Unheard of! and for all of you pro ww/young linkers, (not me) how are they any less controversial than shiek? 2 links in one game? nahh, doesn't make sense.

and as for geno, sonic is getting in first. then, it is hard to choose between megaman and geno. personally i would like megaman better, but other people have different opinions.
and where is the best place to check out the live feed of the conference?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

WISEGUY.

You have another confirmed character. Check out the E3 teaser trailer and look real hard. Donkey Kong is in one of the shots, right at the tail end.

http://gametrailers.com/player/21541.html

I know I seem like one of those dorks that confirm characters just because of an announcement, but you can see DK in the shot. Clear as day.

Check it out, man.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Chibirobo]

WISEGUY.

You have another confirmed character. Check out the E3 teaser trailer and look real hard. Donkey Kong is in one of the shots, right at the tail end.

http://gametrailers.com/player/21541.html

I know I seem like one of those dorks that confirm characters just because of an announcement, but you can see DK in the shot. Clear as day.

Check it out, man.

Smooth Criminal

Hes right. There a thread that shows a still of it.

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

I don't think the link is working...