Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Xanderous]

Well we need a Ninja. I think we can all agree on that.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Rest your fears aside Xanderous, I'm sure that some of that kick arse ninja stuff will be delivered by the now gun-less Snake

 

[Copperpot]

Sorry for butting in. I thought I'd offer some food-for-thought on the whole Sheik matter:

Hey that's unfair. Characters like Dr. Mario deserve to be cut because they fail both the practical and romantic test. Dr. Mario is both redundant as a clone with very few differences from the original AND he's unworthy because he's little more than Mario in a costume. Sheik may be just Zelda in a costume, but in terms of gameplay she's guilty of no crime worth cutting her for. That's important to note when debating for her total destruction, hm?

I'm pretty sure that there are very (and when I say very, I mean very) few people that endorse Doctor Mario coming back as a filler spot. As far as we can all tell here, he's most likely gone (or a costume change).

Sheik does sport a couple of 'splotches' on her record regarding gameplay. Some of her moves were hideously miscalculated, making them much more powerful than they should be. Also, because of this, Zelda herself has become almost completely overshadowed by her counterpart. Now, a question for you, why should a "costume" of a character (with apparently no major gameplay flaws) negate the use of the character whom said costume originates?

Yeah, but the Star Wars prequels suck. And TP is supposedly set just a few decades after Oot. I know they've got a volcano nearby, but even taking that into account I'd say brand new mountains is pushing it, wouldn't you? Anyway, like I said, I think the game is made first, and then fit into the timeline to please the continuity fans.
But whatever, I don't think either of us is going to convince the other on this anytime soon, so I'll move on to something else. Agreed?

Um, agreed . . .

Important? She's the titular character.
And if we're getting into other worthy characters, Midna is beaten by Vaati for importance (as the only other recurring villan in the series) and by freakin' TINGLE in terms of appearances. Don't get me wrong, I loved Midna, but was she really that important to tthe series as a whole?

Midna was about as important as Sheik was, if not more (in their respective games, not the entire series). At least, she did more to help Link than Sheik did . . . crazy kids and their miniature harps . . .

Really? You've never played a character in smash bros just because you liked the character? It's always because they'll give you some kinda tactical advantage?

I can't believe that. I sure know I've spent a great deal of time struggling to make Bowser work for me (somebody's got to keep the magic alive!), and I've always assumed that most people eventually tend to fall into that pattern.
And is it really unlikely that someone would want to try playing as Sheik? As I've said before: she's a ninja. Ninjas are popular. I think it more likely that people saw Sheik, tried her, started winning and then went from there. By the time they were into smash enough to discover that she was top tier, it was too late.

I can sympathize with you as far as the Bowser thing is concerned; his factory's still open, but it's making something else . . .

The Sheik thing is awfully coincedental though, don't you think?

Hey, guys! This character is WAY easier to win with than the rest! I think I'll play with her from now on! *swoon*

Frankly, I agree with you that Sheik isn't much outside of smash bros. And if she wasn't already a character, I'd be with you. But as I've mentioned earlier, I'm too much of a pack rat to give away a perfectly good character once they've already made it into the roster.
What will cutting Sheik solve? Zelda may get another move (assuming they handle transformations the same in Brawl as they do in Melee), but if Zamus really is enough like Sheik to replace her, what has been acomplished? Sheik attached to a new character and under a new name? Big whoop.
Personaly, I'd prefer a unique Zamus over Zamus as a Sheik replacement, and an entire character over one new move for Zelda

You point in bold pretty much reiterated my main point against all of the Sheik supporters.

Sheik has a new model (Zamus) but the same moveset? Who cares, as long as she plays the same?

 

[Zettai Kurayami]

nice predictions

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that 90% of this stuff is going to happen.

 

[lordsturm473]

@Copperpot: None taken. It's all good, I might have taken it the wrong way anyways, but now that I've had my fresh air (and a visit to the dentist ), I think I can present a point with more clarity now.

Let's not forget two things about this game's audience:

1) There are more people than the audience at SmashBoards who will play Brawl. LOTS more, thanks to Nintendo's new strategy at who they're marketing their products for. Their marketing is working soo well, that my freaking 40-year old AUNT got one for her husband, and they don't have any kids and I doubt they've played a video game in their lives before then. I'm not saying that they'll end up playing Brawl, but it's just an example of how wide the potential audience is.

2) This is kinda the same idea as the first point, but how informed do you believe this audience will be? A lot of these people who would potentially go out to buy Brawl will have played Wii Sports, Twilight Princess, and maybe Raving Rabbids and WarioWare, and this will more than likely be their first Brawl experience. Being such, Sakurai will probably like to showcase not only the newer cast of Nintendo characters, but especially the characters that the audience will most likely see in the near future on their Wii's.

Samus on Melee was a good example of this, because the Metroid series was a relatively obscure, almost Kid Icarus-like series in the Nintendo universe before Melee, then Samus appeared in Prime and Fusion, and it was almost like SSBM "primed" (hehehe, word choice FTW) the Gamecube audience for those games. The reverse of this is, obviously, Marth and Roy in SSBM, where their popularity in Smash led to an American Fire Emblem release, rather than the release of a game inspiring their character addition.

Since I have to go soon, I'll just end saying that Brawl, based on the new projected audience and its experience with videogames, can only really afford to have a couple of obscure characters that a new audience wouldn't recognize. And if I had to choose an obscure character, there'd probably be a few more faces that come to mind before Shiek does.

EDIT: I know this is noobish, but First on page 100! w00t.

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

^Only under your page settings... I'm halfway through page 75.

 

[Johnknight1]

You know Nintendo, they always have to be secretive and surprising with their games. I wouldn't be shocked if they announced a huge game later today.

New...Wii....Zelda...now!!!!!!! New DS...Metroid...please!

Good E3 Wii game trailers so far! (real trailers, not 15 seconds!)

-Metroid Prime 3: Corruption - This game's graphics are super awsome compared to how good they were last time, and I really don't care about graphics, but Samus looks awsome, along with that ice hunter! Can't wait!

-Super Mario Galaxy - The bumble bee Mario looks intresting, and hopefully Racoon and Tacaroon Mario return from my fav Mario game, Super Mario Bros. 3: N00b PWNAGE! Hopefully a hammer guy power too, maybe fireball mario...this is making me excited!

-Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles: Sure RE5 looks better, but this still looks pretty darn good!

-Guitar Heroes III - Yes it's coming to the Wii, and I'm excited! Time to break more lamps, chairs, and guitar controllers! I am a very violent person, lol jk!

Haven't seen any other Wii games other than that and the Brawl trailer, the super short, but still awsome one. Hopefully we get more mini-trailers, along with REAL trailers in the future! That would rock! And congratz on 100 pages of posts Wiseguy! A job well done my friend!

 

[DJ Napps]

WARNING: Overly long rant ahead. Proceed with caution.
Okay Wiseguy- digg this...

Im usually with you on most of your opinions, youre a smart man- i admit that.

Then, i saw your update on Bonk, then a puppy died.

I couldnt believe u had picked Bonk over my dude B-man. Blasphemy!
Contrary to belief, Bomberman is not simply a man of bombs. Sure he was in earlier classics such as Bomberman '93 and '94, but has been heavily updated since.
Im not gunna bore you with all of them but if youre interested, go to the support board(http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72276).
So that kills your "no moves" arguement.

As for the "more original, not generic" debate, this can be said for many game characters. For example, Mario is just a simple plumber who can jump three times and throw fire. Link is generic dude with a sword. Bonk is a caveman with a big head and a club. Donkey Kong is just a giant monkey, etc., etc. Ya digg?

Also, Bomberman is a much better rep. for Hudson than Bonk. He is basically the icon of Hudson itself. If you go to hudsonsoft.com, guess who youll see...Bomberman. He was in 2 games with other current Brawlers.
He fought against both Wario and Snake in other fighting games. That puts him in the Mario universe, which is more that can be said for Bonk or even Sonic or Snake, for that matter. His fanbase is rather significant in both Japan and the US, yet is he isnt overly popular or overrated (*cough*Sonic*cough*).
Bomberman is also on the Virtual Console and has been on the NES, SNES, TurboGrafix, N64, etc. and will soon be on a game for the Wii, which, yet again, cannot be said for our beloved Bonk.
Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against Bonk, i just strongly preffer Bomberman.

I hope i didnt discourage or annoy you, i just felt the need for this to b said.

Lets just face it, Bomberman pwns over Bonk. Period.

 

[axi0n]

Alright, I've updated my Brawl predictions, anyone care to give it a rate?

Mario Series (6)

1.Mario
2.Luigi - It would be nice if he was even more luigified...
3.Peach - Keep her old moves and maybe a emotion for a Final Smash
4.Bowser
5.Jr. Bowser/Shadow Mario - You could argue that 3 Mario's doesnt seem right, but we had 2 almost identical Mario's in Melee and these 3 are very very different... Plus this one is a transformation so it wouldnt take up a character slot by itself.
6.Paper Mario - Still alittle iffy about him but he could have a unique moveset with moves from Thousand Year Door and Super Paper Mario

Zelda Series (5)

1.Link
2.Young Link - Wind Waker Style, luigified
3.Zelda - Once again... NO SHIEK
4.Ganondorf - New moves, including sword
5.Midna & Wolf Link (Or Midna alone, both could work, so I'll let you decide)

Pokemon Series (5)

1.Pikachu
2.Jigglypuff - I'm pretty sure we're stuck with it
3.Mewtwo - Sure we could have Deoxys but Mewtwo fits better IMO
4.Blaziken - Say what you will about Blaziken but this guy was made for Brawl! He IS the best 3rd generation choice followed only by Deoxys...
5.Lucario - He's popular everywhere and perfect for Brawl, enough said?

Donkey Kong Series (2)

1.Donkey Kong - CONFIRMED! Like we didn't see it coming...
2.Diddy Kong - Personally I like the Diddy/Dixie duo idea better, but it's true Diddy has enough moves to fight on his own...

Metroid Series (2)

1.Samus/Zamus - I have this feeling Zamus is going to be a separate character, but for now I'm just going to hope I'm proven wrong...
2.Ridley - I personally havn't even played a Metroid game but this guy is tied for first on my most wanted character list!

Star Fox Series (3)
1.Fox - I'm diggin the new DBZ Squirrel look :D
2.Falco - Sorry Wolf fans but I think Falco has a better shot...
3.Krystal - Staff user FTW

Kirby Series (3)
1.Kirby
2.Meta-Knight - Confirmed :D
3.King Dedede - Everyone predicts this so why not? :|

Fire Emblem Series (3)
-Although I really want Lyn to be in I think these 3 are more likely
1.Marth - He was the first lord and all...
2.Ike - I don't see whats so great about him but he has a pretty good shot...
3.Micaiah - They could show her off in Brawl to sell copies of her game, plus she would be pretty awesome.

Other (8)
1.Captain Falcon - With Goroh unconfirmed I think Falcon will be the lone F-Zero representative...
2.Ness/Lucas - One or the other, I don't really care...
3.Ice Climbers - I really doubt they will get cut, being so unique and all! They need a makeover though! Anime-ish style like Pit!
4.Pit - Confirmed :D
5.Olimar - He would pwn with a moveset that used Pikmin
6.Mii - The best idea I've ever heard! So much possibilities!
7.Yoshi - With his stage confirmed and all, you'd have to be a looney to think hes not coming back!
8.Wario

3rd Party (3)
1.Snake - I'm happy to have him though I wish he wore one of his awesome suits from MGS3...
2.Sonic - Never really cared for Sonic but he seems to be the best choice for 3rd party!
3.Megaman - I'd rather have Viewtiful Joe but Megaman seems more likely being to Capcom what Mario is to Nintendo...

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Wow Wiseguy, you've gone from a list that lasted one page into this 100 page thread. I still don't know how you pulled it off.

Now, as for some of the characters I can't decide who will get in: Krystal vs. Wolf, Midna vs. WW Link, Lucario vs. Deoxys, Sheik vs. Everyone here. Okay, that last part was a joke, (But how true) but seriously, which will get the final cut, The villian or the girl, the imp or the... uh cel shaded... person... thing. Who will win in the battle for a tiny square on the selection screen. (I say Wolf, Midna, and Deoxys, but that's just me.)

And on another note, I don't quite like all the negitive stuff about Miis, I know there's no room for characters so estranged, but if the Ice Climbers and Pit could come in, why not someone more recent as an icon that represents the Wii.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

I guess as far as Sheik goes, the argument isn't made that she'll only return for her moveset because the actual character is worthless. It's more that 90% of the people that do want Sheik to return more than likely don't really care if Zelda's mansformation (I am so ****ing copyrighting that,) returns; they just like flipping around like a ninja and winning matches. So a lot of us are confident that it would just make more sense to get a different character entirely, (any Ninja-like Nintendo character, really,) and drop that Sheik moveset in.

I don't see how Zelda and Sheik not being joined at the hip makes Smash any less fun.

But, like, moving on. I am getting more worried that where we may have previously thought Smash was an endless universe of possibilities, things are going to start getting a little more predictable from here on out. With the advent of AT's and the elimination of Goroh, I worry, like many, that the roster might be smaller than we'd originally thought.

I'd venture we're looking at less than 35 at this rate, and it'll probably end up being, instead of a new revolution in Smashing with obscure characters and surprises beating the snot out of Mario and Link, a simple expansion of Melee's roster with a few flourishes on the side.

The formula I'm picking out so far is this. So far, we haven't seen any truly obscure characters playable in Smash. Only the highly, highly retro: The rumored Balloon Fighter and existing Ice Climbers were both staples of Nintendo's big early 8-bit series that closely followed the release of the NES, (as is Kid Icarus,) and Mr. Game & Watch has long been acknowledged as one of Nintendo's true pioneering characters. We're going to see a more honed game with a few more major series characters, one or two more retro characters added to the current number (as it stands...two!) and possibly a truly obscure character. Maybe even two of those. I'm still not entirely sure how Sakurai's going to handle third party characters. Though it would seem more respectful to let Snake and Sonic bring a buddy along, it's more than likely they'll be treated as 'guests' and stuck on opposite corners of the character select screen all by their lonesome.

So I suppose here's my very lame, ghost of a character chart based on this.

Returners:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Yoshi
Bowser
DK
Zelda
Link
Ganondorf
Kirby
Pikachu
Jigglypuff (Yeah, I think she will. Stop laughing at me!)
Captain Falcon
Fox
Falco
Samus

16 slots already!

"Replaced" Characters - These characters won't be cut outright, but they may be replaced by similar ones.
Ness (It has been said that Sakurai wanted to replace Ness with Lucas during the development of Melee.)
Mewtwo (If he's gone, we all know another important and/or legendary pokemon will be stepping right up for the slot.)
Young Link (A lot of people seem to think we're going to see WW Link in his place. While I have no real qualms with that, I do think it's a possibility that lone Midna could actually take his spot -- though she wouldn't take his moveset, she would be the essential 'cuter' Zelda character Young Link always embodied.)

Confirmed Newcomers -
Snake
Pit
Wario
Zero Suit Samus
Meta-Knight

Shoe-Ins (or MOSTLY Shoe-ins,) -
Diddy Kong
Sonic
King Dedede

Etc. Slots-
New Pokemon/Pichu slot eater (aside from Mewtwo's possible replacement. I'm betting on Lucario myself, but I'm still fairly sure Pichu will be dropped and replaced with some new-fangled pokeyman no matter what happens.)
Two Fire Emblem characters. (Honestly I don't know jack about FE besides what my buddies tell me.)
Three slots here to divide amongst retro and highly obscure, considering Pit somewhat already counts for retro.

These logical eliminations (at least in my eyes,) all add up to 33, meaning there are only two slots left. (Well, only one slot left if Sheik returns as herself/attached to Zelda/in a new character's body. I do think there's a remote possibility that Zamus could end up being tweaked into the new Sheik, moveset-wise. She's lithe, sleek, and has both projectile and...whippy, chainy thing.) How would these theoretically be spent?

(Note a slot may also be eaten if both Ness and Lucas, or any two Mother characters make it in.)

 

[jimmysilverrims]

The solution? Giant dartboard. Every canidate and is pinned up. Sakurai flings a dart and pick what it hits. Please have good aim and try not to hit Metapod!

 

[Viroxor]

I feel like ever since Krystal got added into the series, she's caused nothing but problems. Please forgive my further use of emulated dialogue, but I'm on a roll.

*Star Fox Adventures*
Fox: Alright, Falco's gone, Peppy retired, Slippy works somewhere else. I'm free!
Krystal: Fox, come to Sauria and rescue me so you can help me free my planet.
Fox: ****!

*Star Fox Assault*
Fox: Okay, we beat Oikonny and his fleet, destroyed Pigma, and found out something new about Star Wolf. Let's call it a day.
Krystal: No, something's wrong on Sauria, let's go check it out.
Falco and Slippy: Aw man.
Fox: Can we kick back for a minute?
Krystal: No.
Fox: Dang.

*Star Fox Command*
Krystal: I am angry at Fox. He kicked me off the team and I can't figure out why. I'm gonna piss him off by joining Star Wolf and going out with Panther.
Fox: Why can't you just leave me alone?
Krystal: I don't like you.
Falco: *Shoots Krystal* Haha.

Don't deny that it's true. At least Wolf doesn't constantly try to wear out his teammates with overall useless stuff.

 

[DonkeySmasher]

hey johnknight did you also see the boo suit for galaxy

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Listen, I can list to you the reasons we want Sheik out:

1. Two transformations is a little much, I never really liked the transformation idea and felt it didn't fit in with the game

2. We have the whole Twilight Princess theme and Shiek doesn't fit the bill

3. Shiek was a passing character, she taught a few songs, told you where to go and poofed away, did she fight? No. Did Midna fight as an actual sidekide-like secondary character? Yes. Which brings me to number...

4. Other characters deserve the spot more. If it means getting rid of Shiek (One of my mains) to get Midna, then so be it. I'm not the first to say this but if you want new, cool characters you need to get rid of the less worthy. That's the reason people want to give Shiek the boot. We just want other people more. If I could I'd love to have every character back in (Not you Pichu. You can go die.) but the sad truth is we an't, so if they need to gut out Shiek to put in Midna or Wolf Link, so be it.

And that's all I have to say about that.

QFT.

I agree wholeheartedly with all of your points, Jimmy.

* Cracks his neck and decides to leap into the fray.*

I'd like to insert my two cents into the Sheik argument.

Though Sheik is my main in Melee, I am all for the character getting axed. I'm one of those rare individuals (I think Wiseguy and Fawriel pointed this out at some point) that actually enjoys the character for what "it" (yes, "it;" the he/she/it/potato gag is just too good to not reference in some way ) is and how "it" plays. Not just because "it's" cheap or wins me matches (the latter being far from the truth; Mario mains and even a Roy main destroyed my Sheik at some point or another when I went to tourneys consistently). I have a thing for quick, agile characters in all of the fighting games that I have ever played---Cammy from Street Fighter, Chip Zanuff from Guilty Gear (though I pretty much main everybody in GGX2, so go figure), Maxi from Soul Calibur...the list could go on. Though characters like Fox and Falcon were quick on their toes, they just didn't have the same appeal to me as Sheik (LoZ trumps those franchises in my book). "It" just oozed cool; even in OoT, when it just directed Link hither and thither, there was a mystique that surrounded the character; almost subliminal, if you will. Being the complete doofus that I was at the time, I was genuinely surprised when I found out that it was indeed Zelda parading around as a Sheikah. It made me like the alter ego even more and made me wonder what it would be like to take control of the character in the context of the game.

My wishes were answered in Melee, needless to say.

For Brawl, though, I feel Sheik is irrelevant as a playable character. Though one could argue that it's about the overreaching history that a character has, I firmly believe that some characters in the Smash franchise are colored by the game they emanate from. Zelda is a good example of this. The essence of Link's character is like a paint-by-numbers montage; there were slews of games to pool from for a great moveset. Poor Zelda played the damsel-in-distress for X amount of those games; aside from a couple of minor cantrips (ala LttP), what in the hell could she do that was so great? It's not like she could go "she-bam!" and whup the crap outta baddies. Link always pulled her fat out of the fire.

Here comes OoT, though. Zelda is actually shown to be a competent and intrinsically powerful magic-user (blessing Link's arrows with the power of light, pinning Ganon to the ground with powerful magicks, changing her bloody gender, etc). This undoubtedly helped to shape and mold her character into what she was. Out from this mold sprang Sheik; since she did help move the plot along (and moving the plot along is one of the most important things to do when crafting a story; as a writer, I am cognizant of this fact), that gave her just enough clout to be added in.

Here comes TP. I haven't played it, but Wisey and Mendez have made it a point to spoil **** for me. Zelda's back, people. Still a magic-user (with a sword attachment). But wait. Where is Sheik?

Nowhere. TP is an entirely new game set with new characters (well, sort of). Because of this, canonically, Sheik is obsolete. She should have no bearing on this current incarnation of Zelda because, technically, it isn't the same character. Yeah, we all saw Din's Fire in that little vignette of a trailer from E3; however, that would still be a sensible addition to her moveset. Though it emanates from OoT, it's just a spell; something that anybody as savvy at sorcery as our resident Triforce of Wisdom wielder should know. It could easily carry over. The transformation mechanic, however, is an entirely different animal. There was no alter ego in TP; there was simply Zelda, the sorceress and princess. Like before, I think Sakurai and Company will go with what's most recent for Zelda in terms of appearance and gameplay because that seems the way to go with the character.

Blargh. I know my argument was inconsistent in some places, but hey. I'm tired and I'm participating.

Lol.

Smooth Criminal

Edit: Wow. One hundred pages of goodness, Wiseguy. Awesome.

 

[DonkeySmasher]

you know this thread might have just hit 100 pages but it probably has the most words due to these long post debates

and i love it

well wiseguy you should be bittersweet

there's now an animal crossing stage but tom nook is one of the spectators in the town so he's probably not a character

 

[PrinnyFlute]

A fist full of truth.

Couldn't agree more. I think the matter of continuity is more becoming a personal preference. Where a lot of people play each game through thinking, "Here I am, rescuing Zelda again," myself, and likely others concerned with the same, are thinking about how this particular scheme fits into Ganon's grand plan, and the diverse cast of side-characters who bring a different Hyrule to life in every game.

When it comes to a comparison of TP Zelda and OoT Zelda, I honestly almost feel as if it would be doing a diservice to TP Zelda to stick her with Sheik. Despite being the same character by name and appearance, both Zeldas were of different determination and handled their situations fairly differently from one another, making them honestly seem like different people entirely. (Which they kind of are.)

Whereas our Ocarina Princess found herself in exile, far from the pleasantries of royal life, and found it in her own abilities to get out there and counteract Ganondorf actively. She ultimately was a bit of a proactive tomboy, which is a pretty big contrast to our tower bound, sheltered TP Zelda, who had her own strength. She worked on the principle of noble sacrifice, and even when she seemed helpless to her situation, I always was of the notion that her entrapment was somehow necessary to hold Hyrule together what she could.

The idea of that Princess mansforming into a rough and tumble ninja warrior kinda gives me the jeebies.

 

[Lord_Deathborne]

Check this out:

Tom Nook = UNCONFIRMED!

Wasn't even good enough to be an AT...

 

[Wiseguy]

Hi there everyone. Before I begin one of mt annoyingly long posts where I try and respond to just about EVERBODY who has posted on my little thread, there is something I want to get off my chest.

Unlike some snobish videogame journalists (1up.com in particular) who have called Nintendo's Press Conferance a total disaster, I felt that Nintendo did a great job. Nintendo is truly becoming the company it promised to be: one that appeals to gamers of all tastes. For the ultra hardcore, Prime 3 and Umbrella Chronicles looked amazing. For the casual market Brain Age 2 and Wii Fit will no doubt secure Nintendo's utter dominance. All the while, Mario Galaxy and Phantom Hourglass have the potential to do what was once thought impossible: bridge the gulf between hardcore gamers and casual non-gamers and create something that will appeal to both. Call me crazy, but I think videogame journalists should remain objective enough not to blast a game company for releasing games that don't appeal purely to the hardcore audience.

I'm not even that disappointed that Brawl was a no show (aside that 15 second clip). As far as I'm concerned, if Sakurai and his team want to devote their time to completing the game instead of playing show and tell, that's fine. We still have the Dojo updates afterall.

HOWEVER what does worry me is that when Reggie announced Brawl's release date in their press conferance he never once used the words "Smash Bros" and "online" in the same sentense. If fact, it's pretty unnerving that Nintendo has never once confirmed that Brawl would have online multiplayer of any kind. I think it's great that we're getting Brawl before year's end (at least in North America) but if means releasing the game before Sakurai has time to include online multiplayer, I would rather wait a few months until March of 2008.

What about you guys? Would you be willing to wait longer for Brawl if it meant the inclusion of online play?

Yep. Mario is first rescuing Princess Toadstool (this is before she was given her Japanese name to unify things) from Bowser for the umpteenth time. Then, once Mario and Bowser's duel is about to climax, a giant sword falls from the sky and into Bowser's Keep, sending the trio flying. Mario then meets up with Mallow, but they have no idea what's really going on. It's once they meet Geno that the chaos with the Smithy gang booting Bowser out of his castle and the Star Road falling apart that is explained. Then Peach (err, Toadstool ) and Bowser are recruited to help save the Star Road.

After that, their quest changes from re-rescuing Princess Peach to gathering the lost Star Pieces and defeating the Smithy Gang so Geno can repair the Star Road, letting everyone get their wishes again, and so on and so forth.

So yeah, the Midna/Geno analogy is pretty accurate.

Though, Mallow does get some cool character development, but it's not central to the main story.

Fair enough. If Geno is truly the Midna of SMRPG, then he stands a decent shot of appearing in Brawl. But will Sakurai deem the SNES classic as relivant and important enough to warent a Brawl representative? I hope so, becuase Geno has what might be the highest potential out of any Retro charcater for a fun an unique moveset.

No lie! I can't remember the Big N ever releasing so many AAA titles so close to one another. Ah, this will truly be a great 2007 indeed

Yep this year will truly be one for the record books.

So it seems like we have some actual debates going on here again rather then just discussions on the latest updates.

As for talking to Square about letting Geno in, it shouldn't be that hard...

Sakurai: Sup Random Square Dude.

RSD: essOH i hraed U leik mudkipz.

Sakurai: How's the pie?

RSD: SO GOOD

Sakurai: Oh, bye teh wai, can we use Geno in Brawl?

RSD: Ya, lol.

Sakurai: kthxby

I just had that exact conversation earlier today, word for word. Weird...

Anyway, I rather avoid the whole Zelda time line debate since to me, figuring that out seems more confusing then finding a cure for Cancer.

Fair enough.

Even as pro-Sheik, I'm still aware that she can be picked up and used pretty well within like ten minutes of playing as her, unlike other powerful characters like Fox who takes a large amount of time and effort to do very good with. Plus, I hardly play as her for some reason.

That that's primaril the reason why I despise the character so, though I like to think I can still judge the character somewhat objectively. Well, maybe not... but I can at least fake it.

I drew that because no character in Smash is alike from what their like in their own games. The difference between Mario and the many Zeldas is, it's generally been accepted that there has only be one Mario or at least hardly anything suggesting more then one. While TP Zelda and OoT Zelda are different characters, their both still Zelda in some way. Sheik may have been unique to OoT Zelda, but what's there to stop a second Sheik?

Beacue there IS no second Sheik is base a Brawl chatracter on. Brawl is about paying homage to actual characters from videogames, not just including charcaters that could have interesting movesets. Zelda earned her spot in Brawl by appearing in Twilight Princess. What games has Sheik appeared in since Melee?

Sheik's move set taking as much time to program as a totally new move set? I disagree for two reasons. One, can't they simply port animations over from Melee? My basics for that is in the second trailer, characters were shown with animations from Melee that were most likely placeholders, like Pit's standing animation being just like Young Link's. Second, reusing an old move set is easier because it's already thought up, unlike thinking up new moves (or rather, deciding which ones to use). Oh and BTW, we all know Sheik is really a shemale .

How would it be extra work or out of place?

Well, the way I see it bringing a character over from Melee could be no less time consuming than an entirely new character. It's more than simply cutting and paisting the moveset from one character model to another, the moves have to be properly synched to the new character model and balanced for the new roster. We also don't know how drastcially Brawl's engine (the "guts" of the game if you will) has been modified, so it might be simplier simply to reprogram the moveset from scractch. Reagrdless, that time should not go to an unworthy character like Sheik - but instead to a whole new Zelda character like Midna.

Keep in mind that the actual conceiving of the moveset is not the hardpart. Sakurai has no doubt thron away better moveset ideas than we could ever come up with. It's the programing, synching and balancing that takes time.

Move sets or not, Giga Bowser is still another form of Bowser that only exists in the Smash games and he never done it in any of the Mario games. As for Captain Falcon shooting a beam out of his arm, I would agree that is out of place and characters who moves are made up do fit in with them to some degree. You seem to act like the difference between TP Zelda and OoT Zelda is like the difference between Kirby and Pikachu. Sure their not quite the same, but their not like totally different people either. TP Zelda and OoT Zelda are still both a Zelda who both use magic, both are princesses, have a similar role in Hyrule, and more. Heck, in that teaser, it seems pretty clear that Zelda is using Din's Fire, which never existed in TP. What's stopping TP Zelda from transforming into a newly created TP style Sheik? You seem so focused on that transforming into OoT is the only possible option.

I'm all for completely unique abilites being giving to characters when it is convenient to do so. I don't really care that Mario can't shoot red lightning from his hands in his actual games, becuase as a Final Smash it makes sense in the context Smash Bros. Din's fire (and Zelda's other 2 magic attacks named after the 3 Goddesses in the Zelda series) are also examples of this. Zelda never actually used Link's magic attacks, - but they don't seem at all out of place.

Sheik, however, was not simply made up for Melee - that ability is very, very specific to OoT and the Zelda in that game so it would be harder to explain away than merely a fire attack named after the Goddess Din (who is a constant in all the Triforce Zelda storylines).

Well, what something like the below put your mind at ease with TP Zelda transformating into Sheik?

"Zelda can transform into her alter ego, Sheik. Now hold up I hear you say, isn't that impossible for her to do? Well, while learning how to cast spells like Din's Fire from reading through her history on one of her great grandmas, Zelda decided to learn how to transform into Sheik."

Forgive my bluntness, but no. That just doesn't do it for me.

One thing I would like to note that others also brought up with other things quoted word from word from the site. The stuff was originally in Japanese and then brought over into English and due to the nature of the Japanese language, there's quite a bit of room for how the words can be brought into English. Of course, this doesn't stop certain stuff said from being clean cut, but which stuff, another debate altogether. Anyway, if you're gonna quote word to word, you should also point out that it said "The design of this particular Link comes from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess." It didn't said "This Link comes from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess." This could mean just the design, not the whole character himself. You also say based, while being based off of and actually being isn't quite the same thing. It's like how the other Links and Zeldas are based off of one, but isn't exactly one of them. It could be said that the Link in Four Swords is based off of Wind Waker Link, but isn't quite him. Food for thought.

Everything you said is true, but I still think the wording at least implies that Sakurai is aware that there are multiple Link's. Otherwsie, he could have said "Link has a new appearance from his latest game - Twilight Princess." So, while it's nothing conclusive it is suggestive that Sakurai is at least aware of Zelda continuity - even if he doesn't see it as that important to Smash Bros.

While I'm not sure, wouldn't Aonuma care more about what could make Brawl fun in terms of Zelda characters then worrying about story and continuity when the Smash series is non-canon to all series that show up in it?

Yes, but ANY character could be given a fun moveset - so why not give one to a worthy Zelda character instead? Both Midna and Tingle would be really unique addtions.

Who decides what's reasonable outside the creators of the game? What if the "rules" change from game to game? If we could be Melee, how can we say that the rules bent in that game was or was not the limit. This seems like one of the things that could be debated forever with very little basics to go off of. Might just be better sticking to other things people debated and argued about for such a long time now.

Again, I have a strange gut feeling that somehow Sheik herself won't be returning, regardless of how I may defend her. I usually expect the worst when I have mixed feelings about things and the fact remains that there's pretty much nothing that actually suggests Sheik will return and that they simply won't change Zelda's down B move.

I know Sheik wasn't the only thing discussed here, including counter arguments to other characters I talked about, but I rather keep my focus on a subject as big as this for the moment.

Obviously Sakurai's opion is all that really matters. Everything else is just fun speculation. We'll just have to wait for Sakurai to reveal more of Zelda's moveset before we know's Sheik's fate for certain.

But who is more important that Marth in the FE series=??? Ike is argueable, but other than that no one is more important, PERIOD! Also, yae for Dec 3rd (My dad is going to be mad his birthday), and yae for a MGS4 trailer! YIPEEE!

You mentioned cutting IC and Marth, but not G&W. Intresting...

The MGS trailer is awesome. Oddly enough, I hear that the stuff at the begining about "war is the oil of the twenty first century" is actually an elaborate metaphor for the PS3. I tried listening to the words again, but I still can't tell if that's true or not...

Oh, and by the way: G&W should be cut too. Happy?

Well Goroh has appeared in every F-Zero game, and is the only character to do so (CApt. Falcon didn't appear in a GBA one, while Goroh did). He's the 2nd most important character...and I HATE BLACK SHADOW! I'll be baised this once, and I don't think I'll back down. However, Pico still like he's got a chance, and if there are 2 F-Zero reps, Pico should definitely be one of them!

Black Shadow sucks. SUCKS! Worst villian of all time. I really, really hate him. Pico is a much better choice, but with Goroh deemed unworthy it appears that Falcon will be the solo rep for his series once again.

Fanbase: Compared to how much he is wanted in Brawl. I saw a petition with well over 10,000 signatures, that wanted Nintendo to make SMRPG 2 (not a weak scruby PS3 fanboy boycott on Capcom for making Devil May Cry 4 go multipconsole). Look at the Geno thread, it's one of the biggest in comparision to others.

Overall, Geno passes with flying colors in 2 of those categories, stands decent in 2, and doesn't do so well in 1, give or take! He stands a fair chance for the last few spots, now see how Black Mage will stack up.

I strongly suspect that those 10,000 people are the only people on the planet who know who Geno is. Geno is undoubtebly awesome, and those hardcore Nintendo fan who know him tend to like him alot - but if you compare the SMRPG fanbase to the Final Fantasy fanbase today, it really is no contest. I still say Geno's only assest is his originality, which might just be enough to get him a spot on the roster. It worked for Ice Climbers, afterall.

You darned lucky americans. Here, have a look at my release dates (and then add a week to each, because usually the rest of Europe>Spain in terms of releases). Yeah, no Brawl 'til 2008, no Metroid 'till october, Paper Mario comes here in september (still!), and we don't even have a date for Galaxy. And to show for it, we have... a Tingle rupee-collecting game. Excuse me while I start destroying nearby objects in a fit of rage.

Ye gods, I hate you, Nintendo Europe. I mean, why the hell do you need to lose the Christmas campaign for such a bestselling title as Brawl? Because of that difficult English-to-English translation maybe? Or because of that transition to PAL that would probably take a few days at most? (it's probably mere hours). Ohhh, I know, it must be because you can't find a distributor for the best-****ing-selling title in the console!

Seriously, forgive the language, but I am kinda angry right now.

Sigh... anyway, I hope you people keep me informed when you get Brawl, if you don't mind. It's good to know at least some people I know will be playing the thing over Christmas.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=29g57XTYgLE

In all fairness, you Euros also got Mario Strikers months ago, and we still have to wait a whole few weeks for that one. So it all evens out right? RIGHT?

*Runs away*

OMFG!!! SHEIK'S A POTATO??!?!?!!


IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

Indeed. Go spread the word.

Did anyone else notice in the sample video on the DOJO site that when Fox jumped and was in the Firefox animation, his gun wasn't out. Didn't they say that his gun wasn't going to be holstered? Maybe it goes away for some moves....

Anyway, I'm kinda indifferent to the whole Sheik debate. I do think that if (s)he does return, it wont be as a transformation, but as a separate character. My opinion is that if they do put sheik in then the moveset will be nerfed, resulting in a not so played character. Though I'm sure that there are some people out there that will play regardless.

I would rather Falco return, as opposed to Wolf. Just not as clone-ish. My reasoning for that is that I don't like the idea of Wolf being another clone. We already have one, why ditch one for another? But you never know, perhaps if Pokemon can get 4 representatives, why can't SF?

I kinda want Marth to return, but I'm not sure if they'll nerf him if he does come back. So maybe a new, better FE representative will be the better choice. Who knows.

When I read the idea of ditching Pichu for another joke character, for some reason my mind went towards Toad. I really can't think of an interesting moveset, but the idea of Toad beating down some powerhouse like Giga Bowser is pretty funny.

Yeah, I also noticed the absense of Fox's laser on the Standard combo update. It should be interesting to see how dramatically his moveset is altered for Brawl.

I think Mii would be the perfect joke character.

Mr. Burns FTW!

"Eeeeexcelent....."

You know, as unappealing as this originally sounds to me, I might even live with it for two reasons:
1) Get rid of Pichu! A waste of a character, clone or otherwise.
2) Bring in Toad! I dunno if I could live with him as a joke character, though. Toad really does have fighting potential.

Toad is a possibility, joke character or no. It all depends if Sakurai wants yet another Mario character after the four mains and Bowser Jr. (who is all but guaranteed, in my view).

You're a Yoshi! >_>

Anywho, I've contemplated the idea of Toad being in Smash before. Not opposed to it, but I'm not supportive of it either. Toad has gotten annoying after Mario 64. His voice is just... eh. That's just my opinion, sorry Toad lovers. I loved him back in the old school days. SMB3 FTW.

But you know who I'd love to see as an assist trophy(s). The Koopa Kids. @#$%. Yeah.

And yes, I concur. I need me some F-zero action. Though I never beat F-zero cube. >_> Game is hard as hell.

Koopa Kids... those could be neat ATs. Good idea.

Not trying to take sides here, but one of Wiseguy's points is that "Shiek is just an alter ego of one supporting character in one Zelda game", where the game he references, of course, is Ocarina of Time. OoT wasn't just "one Zelda game", it was perhaps the defining game in the entire series, and in the opinion of many, perhaps the greatest game of all time, not just the series itself. Whenever someone thinks the LoZ series, I'd bet that OoT is the first thing that comes to mind for most people. While in my personal opinion, TP is better, it's just the facts that show that OoT isn't just any Zelda game.
GameRankings.com (a site that compiles reviews and ranks games based on average review scores from many sources) shows OoT as being the #1 game of all time. Granted, it counts ports as separate games, but OoT still towers over every other game's average score (97.7% versus the #2 game's 96.4% (the original Soul Calibur)).
Personally, I hate Shiek like you do, Wiseguy, but OoT's status as a classic has to be taken into account. And Shiek also has sentimental value, as well. When I first played through OoT, I never saw Zelda's transformation coming. It was the biggest plot twist I ever knew back then. Granted I was a kid, but still, the reminders of those golden days are still present.
Link: http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/simpleratings.asp

There is no questioning that OoT is a very important game in the series (though I would say MM is superior) but that game got it's due when 5 OoT characters were included in Melee. Right now, TP (whichm I consider to be the best in the series) is the game getting all the hype and positive reviews so I think it's that game's turn to shine.

Ironically, I played Melee at a friend's house before I ever tried a Zelda game, so when I played OoT the Sheik disgusie did not take me by surprise at all. So Sheik kinda spoiled the game's ending for me.

Hmmm.... maybe that was where my lifelong hatred of the character began.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/804/804234p1.html

:sobs :

It's sad, but at least Sakurai is hard at work completing the game rather than wasting time preparing lengthy trailers and demos. As long as the update continue (and online is confirmed) I'll be content.

I just found this thread and it is pretty cool. I just highly disagree with you on Tingle. You, as well as many other people know I backed Tingle up for a good chance in Brawl. HE HAS A CHANCE! At least you put possible. Am I the only Tingle fan on this whole site?! I made the guy a moveset before! Why does no one like him? HMS is cool as well. Tingle has as much of a chance as Marth(just about). They are both very popular in Japan and believe it(no or nots), Tingle is getting popular here as well...just very slowly. Marths main edge is only that he was in Melee as a playable character. Tingle was an enviroment showing they did think of him. I'm just saying that you people criticize him too much. He is not that bad.

Anyways, TGS and E for All are the next big events.

Tingle does stand a fair chance, I just think Midna has a greater chance - since her role in TP was so great while TIngle's appeal is still somewhat... limited. If a sixth Zelda character makes the cut, it will surely be him.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=A4VA4gD_hjY

i know this is smash forum but watch this galaxy clip

Good clip. Galaxy looks really, really good. Who said Wii games can't have incredible visuals?

Hey that's unfair. Characters like Dr. Mario deserve to be cut because they fail both the practical and romantic test. Dr. Mario is both redundant as a clone with very few differences from the original AND he's unworthy because he's little more than Mario in a costume. Sheik may be just Zelda in a costume, but in terms of gameplay she's guilty of no crime worth cutting her for. That's important to note when debating for her total destruction, hm?

However, Doc took a small ammount of development time to include. It wasn't like he was included at the expense of Wario or Didddy. Zelda/Sheik on the other hand took as much time to include as two characters, and yet people tend to only use Sheik. One character for the price of two. Nice. We didin't really want to play as Skull Kid anyway....

Yeah, but the Star Wars prequels suck. And TP is supposedly set just a few decades after Oot. I know they've got a volcano nearby, but even taking that into account I'd say brand new mountains is pushing it, wouldn't you? Anyway, like I said, I think the game is made first, and then fit into the timeline to please the continuity fans.
But whatever, I don't think either of us is going to convince the other on this anytime soon, so I'll move on to something else. Agreed?

The Star Wars prequels do suck (just don't tell Johnknight1...) and contradict the original series in a number of ways. However, in the Star Wars timeline, they are no less relevant. Thus, even if the Zelda games contradict each other it does not mean that the timeline is nonexistant - just poorly thought out.

And the time between OoT and TP is never clearly defined. It could be several decades or several centuries.

But yeah, let's move on. There's no point in arguing semantics.

Important? She's the titular character.
And if we're getting into other worthy characters, Midna is beaten by Vaati for importance (as the only other recurring villan in the series) and by freakin' TINGLE in terms of appearances. Don't get me wrong, I loved Midna, but was she really that important to tthe series as a whole?

I would argue, yes she is. Just as OoT was a landmark in the series, so is Twilight Princess a very important instalment in the series. Not only is it the Wii's killer ap, but it will reportedly be the final tradition Zelda game (whatever that means...)

In comaprison, Vaati's games are far less important. His first game (FS) was little more than a mini game for ALttP GBA, his second (FSA) is the least popular game in the series becuase it reqiured the purchase of multiple BGAs and Link cables. His third game (MC) is the only reason he should even be considered for a pot in Brawl - but his role in that game (and all the games combined) is minimal comapred to Midna's starring role in TP.

Really? You've never played a character in smash bros just because you liked the character? It's always because they'll give you some kinda tactical advantage?

I can't believe that. I sure know I've spent a great deal of time struggling to make Bowser work for me (somebody's got to keep the magic alive!), and I've always assumed that most people eventually tend to fall into that pattern.
And is it really unlikely that someone would want to try playing as Sheik? As I've said before: she's a ninja. Ninjas are popular. I think it more likely that people saw Sheik, tried her, started winning and then went from there. By the time they were into smash enough to discover that she was top tier, it was too late.

You've got me there. I'm a huge DK fan.

To be fair, I suppose it's possible that a few people picked Sheik up becuase they liked the character. Butb that's true of all the characters in Melee. Doc is my main, for example. No matter who you remove, somone will be offended. The only fair way to approach it is to judge charcaters on their worthiness outside of Smash and then try and make them all balanced and fun to play as.

Frankly, I agree with you that Sheik isn't much outside of smash bros. And if she wasn't already a character, I'd be with you. But as I've mentioned earlier, I'm too much of a pack rat to give away a perfectly good character once they've already made it into the roster.
What will cutting Sheik solve? Zelda may get another move (assuming they handle transformations the same in Brawl as they do in Melee), but if Zamus really is enough like Sheik to replace her, what has been acomplished? Sheik attached to a new character and under a new name? Big whoop.
Personaly, I'd prefer a unique Zamus over Zamus as a Sheik replacement, and an entire character over one new move for Zelda

I'd rather stop this madness and do away with transformations, but Sakurai specifically stated that Zamus was not a pure character addition. Instead, Samus will remove her suit under "certain conditions."

Also remember: for every character cut, there will be more time for new character additions.
If Sakurai keeps a pacrat mentality, Brawl will essentially be Melee with pritier graphics.

Listen, I can list to you the reasons we want Sheik out:

1. Two transformations is a little much, I never really liked the transformation idea and felt it didn't fit in with the game

2. We have the whole Twilight Princess theme and Shiek doesn't fit the bill

3. Shiek was a passing character, she taught a few songs, told you where to go and poofed away, did she fight? No. Did Midna fight as an actual sidekide-like secondary character? Yes. Which brings me to number...

4. Other characters deserve the spot more. If it means getting rid of Shiek (One of my mains) to get Midna, then so be it. I'm not the first to say this but if you want new, cool characters you need to get rid of the less worthy. That's the reason people want to give Shiek the boot. We just want other people more. If I could I'd love to have every character back in (Not you Pichu. You can go die.) but the sad truth is we an't, so if they need to gut out Shiek to put in Midna or Wolf Link, so be it.

And that's all I have to say about that.

That sums it up pretty well atually. Thanks for making me feel good about my bet with Samusrules93, where is Sheik is confirmed I have to use a Sheik sig of his making for an entire month. Don't worry SR93, I have your WW Link sig all ready.

Oh I didn't read the other pages but all of this is about Sheik...again! Please don't go into the Midna, Vaati, Tingle, Happy Mask Salesman, Skull Kid discussion again. Me(Tingles side), Numa, Wiseguy, LukeFon, Stryks and whoever discussed that to death. We covered everything. And why does everyone hate Tingle?! I just want a reason besides 'he's gay' or 'he's ugly' or anything like that.
Anyways to the Sheik stuff, It looks like Brawl will be TP for Zelda so I don't think so.
-She is a 10 year old character that occured in no other game
-There are other deserving characters. I am sure a few people know here that I don't want Midna for Brawl(she's okay but don't want her in)and I'd rather her than Sheik.
-everything has been said about both sides so I ain't preeching on with this.

I guess we do talk about Zelda character alot on this thread. But hey, it's a pretty important series in case you haven't heard.

Right, so if the Sheik things dropped then...

...

...

There's nothing else to complain about!!!

How about we complain about the long wait for season seven of the greatest show on televison: 24! I expect the next season to involve Jack Bauer killing terrorists in new and creative ways while continuing to push the boundaries of all that is awesome.

Well we need a Ninja. I think we can all agree on that.

Yeah, but can't we have ninja who isn't transgendered?

nice predictions

Tahnk you.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that 90% of this stuff is going to happen.

That would be great. But if Sonic and other 3rd parties are in the roster, why nothing at E3? I was expecting Sega to be cashing in on Brawl's popularity in order to sell more Sonic games.

@Copperpot: None taken. It's all good, I might have taken it the wrong way anyways, but now that I've had my fresh air (and a visit to the dentist ), I think I can present a point with more clarity now.

Let's not forget two things about this game's audience:

1) There are more people than the audience at SmashBoards who will play Brawl. LOTS more, thanks to Nintendo's new strategy at who they're marketing their products for. Their marketing is working soo well, that my freaking 40-year old AUNT got one for her husband, and they don't have any kids and I doubt they've played a video game in their lives before then. I'm not saying that they'll end up playing Brawl, but it's just an example of how wide the potential audience is.

2) This is kinda the same idea as the first point, but how informed do you believe this audience will be? A lot of these people who would potentially go out to buy Brawl will have played Wii Sports, Twilight Princess, and maybe Raving Rabbids and WarioWare, and this will more than likely be their first Brawl experience. Being such, Sakurai will probably like to showcase not only the newer cast of Nintendo characters, but especially the characters that the audience will most likely see in the near future on their Wii's.

Samus on Melee was a good example of this, because the Metroid series was a relatively obscure, almost Kid Icarus-like series in the Nintendo universe before Melee, then Samus appeared in Prime and Fusion, and it was almost like SSBM "primed" (hehehe, word choice FTW) the Gamecube audience for those games. The reverse of this is, obviously, Marth and Roy in SSBM, where their popularity in Smash led to an American Fire Emblem release, rather than the release of a game inspiring their character addition.

Since I have to go soon, I'll just end saying that Brawl, based on the new projected audience and its experience with videogames, can only really afford to have a couple of obscure characters that a new audience wouldn't recognize. And if I had to choose an obscure character, there'd probably be a few more faces that come to mind before Shiek does.

EDIT: I know this is noobish, but First on page 100! w00t.

That's a very well reasoned arguement. You make an excellent point.

Wow. 100 pages already. Thanks to everyone for making this thread a place where nonforamal and well thought out debates can thrive.

^Only under your page settings... I'm halfway through page 75.

Well in that case, I revoke my thanks.

New...Wii....Zelda...now!!!!!!! New DS...Metroid...please!

Good E3 Wii game trailers so far! (real trailers, not 15 seconds!)

-Metroid Prime 3: Corruption - This game's graphics are super awsome compared to how good they were last time, and I really don't care about graphics, but Samus looks awsome, along with that ice hunter! Can't wait!

-Super Mario Galaxy - The bumble bee Mario looks intresting, and hopefully Racoon and Tacaroon Mario return from my fav Mario game, Super Mario Bros. 3: N00b PWNAGE! Hopefully a hammer guy power too, maybe fireball mario...this is making me excited!

-Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles: Sure RE5 looks better, but this still looks pretty darn good!

-Guitar Heroes III - Yes it's coming to the Wii, and I'm excited! Time to break more lamps, chairs, and guitar controllers! I am a very violent person, lol jk!

Haven't seen any other Wii games other than that and the Brawl trailer, the super short, but still awsome one. Hopefully we get more mini-trailers, along with REAL trailers in the future! That would rock! And congratz on 100 pages of posts Wiseguy! A job well done my friend!

Agreed on all counts. Phantom Hourglass looks amazing as well. What I can't understand is why Nintendo is keeping so quiet about Goddess of Dawn and Bataleon Wars 2...

WARNING: Overly long rant ahead. Proceed with caution.
Okay Wiseguy- digg this...

Im usually with you on most of your opinions, youre a smart man- i admit that.

Then, i saw your update on Bonk, then a puppy died.

A puppy? Awww I feel terrible... wait, are you using my own tactics against me?

I couldnt believe u had picked Bonk over my dude B-man. Blasphemy!
Contrary to belief, Bomberman is not simply a man of bombs. Sure he was in earlier classics such as Bomberman '93 and '94, but has been heavily updated since.
Im not gunna bore you with all of them but if youre interested, go to the support board(http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72276).
So that kills your "no moves" arguement.

I've poked asround the B-man thread before and many people have pointed out that he has bombs with special abilities - like fire bombs and wind bombs.... but those still count as bombs, right? Or does the character have other abiliites I am unaware of?

As for the "more original, not generic" debate, this can be said for many game characters. For example, Mario is just a simple plumber who can jump three times and throw fire. Link is generic dude with a sword. Bonk is a caveman with a big head and a club. Donkey Kong is just a giant monkey, etc., etc. Ya digg?

Plumbers, Cavemen and giant monkeys generic? You've lost me. Those are all unique ideas for a for a videogame protagonist. Bomerman is... a man. And Bomerman is popular because of his games, not because the character is all that compelling. Bonk, however, rose to greatness out sheer force of peronality. He's a freakin caveman, dude - and he solves all his probelms with a headbutt. What's not to love?

Also, Bomberman is a much better rep. for Hudson than Bonk. He is basically the icon of Hudson itself. If you go to hudsonsoft.com, guess who youll see...Bomberman. He was in 2 games with other current Brawlers.
He fought against both Wario and Snake in other fighting games. That puts him in the Mario universe, which is more that can be said for Bonk or even Sonic or Snake, for that matter. His fanbase is rather significant in both Japan and the US, yet is he isnt overly popular or overrated (*cough*Sonic*cough*).
Bomberman is also on the Virtual Console and has been on the NES, SNES, TurboGrafix, N64, etc. and will soon be on a game for the Wii, which, yet again, cannot be said for our beloved Bonk.
Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against Bonk, i just strongly preffer Bomberman.

Bomerman is far more iconic than Bonk becuase he's been around forever and his rivalry with Wario should not be overlooked. However, Bonk brings something even more important: he completes the epic 16 bit console war rivalry betweem Mario, Sonic and Bonk. Having them all in the same game would be historic. Bonk has also become a superstar on virtual console. Last holiday, Bonk's Adventure was the most downloaded game on VC.

The way I see it, it's about even. Bomerman is the more popular and iconic, while Bonk has more of a nalstalga factor (though Bomerman also has that) and brings a much more unique presence to the roster and has a greater potential for a unique moveset.

I hope i didnt discourage or annoy you, i just felt the need for this to b said.

Lets just face it, Bomberman pwns over Bonk. Period.

Hey, no prob. I was hoping the Bomerman defenece force would show up. A little divewrsity of opinion keeps this thread interesting.

Alright, I've updated my Brawl predictions, anyone care to give it a rate?

Mario Series (6)

1.Mario
2.Luigi - It would be nice if he was even more luigified...
3.Peach - Keep her old moves and maybe a emotion for a Final Smash
4.Bowser
5.Jr. Bowser/Shadow Mario - You could argue that 3 Mario's doesnt seem right, but we had 2 almost identical Mario's in Melee and these 3 are very very different... Plus this one is a transformation so it wouldnt take up a character slot by itself.
6.Paper Mario - Still alittle iffy about him but he could have a unique moveset with moves from Thousand Year Door and Super Paper Mario

Zelda Series (5)

1.Link
2.Young Link - Wind Waker Style, luigified
3.Zelda - Once again... NO SHIEK
4.Ganondorf - New moves, including sword
5.Midna & Wolf Link (Or Midna alone, both could work, so I'll let you decide)

Pokemon Series (5)

1.Pikachu
2.Jigglypuff - I'm pretty sure we're stuck with it
3.Mewtwo - Sure we could have Deoxys but Mewtwo fits better IMO
4.Blaziken - Say what you will about Blaziken but this guy was made for Brawl! He IS the best 3rd generation choice followed only by Deoxys...
5.Lucario - He's popular everywhere and perfect for Brawl, enough said?

Donkey Kong Series (2)

1.Donkey Kong - CONFIRMED! Like we didn't see it coming...
2.Diddy Kong - Personally I like the Diddy/Dixie duo idea better, but it's true Diddy has enough moves to fight on his own...

Metroid Series (2)

1.Samus/Zamus - I have this feeling Zamus is going to be a separate character, but for now I'm just going to hope I'm proven wrong...
2.Ridley - I personally havn't even played a Metroid game but this guy is tied for first on my most wanted character list!

Star Fox Series (3)
1.Fox - I'm diggin the new DBZ Squirrel look :D
2.Falco - Sorry Wolf fans but I think Falco has a better shot...
3.Krystal - Staff user FTW

Kirby Series (3)
1.Kirby
2.Meta-Knight - Confirmed :D
3.King Dedede - Everyone predicts this so why not? :|

Fire Emblem Series (3)
-Although I really want Lyn to be in I think these 3 are more likely
1.Marth - He was the first lord and all...
2.Ike - I don't see whats so great about him but he has a pretty good shot...
3.Micaiah - They could show her off in Brawl to sell copies of her game, plus she would be pretty awesome.

Other (8)
1.Captain Falcon - With Goroh unconfirmed I think Falcon will be the lone F-Zero representative...
2.Ness/Lucas - One or the other, I don't really care...
3.Ice Climbers - I really doubt they will get cut, being so unique and all! They need a makeover though! Anime-ish style like Pit!
4.Pit - Confirmed :D
5.Olimar - He would pwn with a moveset that used Pikmin
6.Mii - The best idea I've ever heard! So much possibilities!
7.Yoshi - With his stage confirmed and all, you'd have to be a looney to think hes not coming back!
8.Wario

3rd Party (3)
1.Snake - I'm happy to have him though I wish he wore one of his awesome suits from MGS3...
2.Sonic - Never really cared for Sonic but he seems to be the best choice for 3rd party!
3.Megaman - I'd rather have Viewtiful Joe but Megaman seems more likely being to Capcom what Mario is to Nintendo...

That is one awesome moveset. Maybe it's becuase it's almost 4:00 am, but I see no major falts (though I wouldn't keep IC or Marth...) so 9.9/10 for me.

Come to think of it, I forgot to rate Johnkight1's list a few pages back. If I recall correctly, it was about a 9.7

Wow Wiseguy, you've gone from a list that lasted one page into this 100 page thread. I still don't know how you pulled it off.

Now, as for some of the characters I can't decide who will get in: Krystal vs. Wolf, Midna vs. WW Link, Lucario vs. Deoxys, Sheik vs. Everyone here. Okay, that last part was a joke, (But how true) but seriously, which will get the final cut, The villian or the girl, the imp or the... uh cel shaded... person... thing. Who will win in the battle for a tiny square on the selection screen. (I say Wolf, Midna, and Deoxys, but that's just me.)

And on another note, I don't quite like all the negitive stuff about Miis, I know there's no room for characters so estranged, but if the Ice Climbers and Pit could come in, why not someone more recent as an icon that represents the Wii.

Hmmm...

1) Krystal- she has a much greater potential for a unique moveset with her staff.

2) Young Link- Mindna is more than worthy of the fifth spot, but there's no way Young Link is being cut. He's starred in 5 games in the last years, inlcuding the sublime WW and the upcomin Phantom Hourglass.

3) Lucario or Dexoys? Don't care. Sorry..

I guess as far as Sheik goes, the argument isn't made that she'll only return for her moveset because the actual character is worthless. It's more that 90% of the people that do want Sheik to return more than likely don't really care if Zelda's mansformation (I am so ****ing copyrighting that,) returns; they just like flipping around like a ninja and winning matches. So a lot of us are confident that it would just make more sense to get a different character entirely, (any Ninja-like Nintendo character, really,) and drop that Sheik moveset in.

I don't see how Zelda and Sheik not being joined at the hip makes Smash any less fun.

But, like, moving on. I am getting more worried that where we may have previously thought Smash was an endless universe of possibilities, things are going to start getting a little more predictable from here on out. With the advent of AT's and the elimination of Goroh, I worry, like many, that the roster might be smaller than we'd originally thought.

I'd venture we're looking at less than 35 at this rate, and it'll probably end up being, instead of a new revolution in Smashing with obscure characters and surprises beating the snot out of Mario and Link, a simple expansion of Melee's roster with a few flourishes on the side.

The formula I'm picking out so far is this. So far, we haven't seen any truly obscure characters playable in Smash. Only the highly, highly retro: The rumored Balloon Fighter and existing Ice Climbers were both staples of Nintendo's big early 8-bit series that closely followed the release of the NES, (as is Kid Icarus,) and Mr. Game & Watch has long been acknowledged as one of Nintendo's true pioneering characters. We're going to see a more honed game with a few more major series characters, one or two more retro characters added to the current number (as it stands...two!) and possibly a truly obscure character. Maybe even two of those. I'm still not entirely sure how Sakurai's going to handle third party characters. Though it would seem more respectful to let Snake and Sonic bring a buddy along, it's more than likely they'll be treated as 'guests' and stuck on opposite corners of the character select screen all by their lonesome.

So I suppose here's my very lame, ghost of a character chart based on this.

Returners:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Yoshi
Bowser
DK
Zelda
Link
Ganondorf
Kirby
Pikachu
Jigglypuff (Yeah, I think she will. Stop laughing at me!)
Captain Falcon
Fox
Falco
Samus

16 slots already!

"Replaced" Characters - These characters won't be cut outright, but they may be replaced by similar ones.
Ness (It has been said that Sakurai wanted to replace Ness with Lucas during the development of Melee.)
Mewtwo (If he's gone, we all know another important and/or legendary pokemon will be stepping right up for the slot.)
Young Link (A lot of people seem to think we're going to see WW Link in his place. While I have no real qualms with that, I do think it's a possibility that lone Midna could actually take his spot -- though she wouldn't take his moveset, she would be the essential 'cuter' Zelda character Young Link always embodied.)

Confirmed Newcomers -
Snake
Pit
Wario
Zero Suit Samus
Meta-Knight

Shoe-Ins (or MOSTLY Shoe-ins,) -
Diddy Kong
Sonic
King Dedede

Etc. Slots-
New Pokemon/Pichu slot eater (aside from Mewtwo's possible replacement. I'm betting on Lucario myself, but I'm still fairly sure Pichu will be dropped and replaced with some new-fangled pokeyman no matter what happens.)
Two Fire Emblem characters. (Honestly I don't know jack about FE besides what my buddies tell me.)
Three slots here to divide amongst retro and highly obscure, considering Pit somewhat already counts for retro.

These logical eliminations (at least in my eyes,) all add up to 33, meaning there are only two slots left. (Well, only one slot left if Sheik returns as herself/attached to Zelda/in a new character's body. I do think there's a remote possibility that Zamus could end up being tweaked into the new Sheik, moveset-wise. She's lithe, sleek, and has both projectile and...whippy, chainy thing.) How would these theoretically be spent?

I agree with you on this. Is looking like the maximum we can expect.

Hmm.. I'd say Olimar DEFINITELY deserves one of those spots....

The solution? Giant dartboard. Every canidate and is pinned up. Sakurai flings a dart and pick what it hits. Please have good aim and try not to hit Metapod!

We have a winner!

I feel like ever since Krystal got added into the series, she's caused nothing but problems. Please forgive my further use of emulated dialogue, but I'm on a roll.

*Star Fox Adventures*
Fox: Alright, Falco's gone, Peppy retired, Slippy works somewhere else. I'm free!
Krystal: Fox, come to Sauria and rescue me so you can help me free my planet.
Fox: ****!

*Star Fox Assault*
Fox: Okay, we beat Oikonny and his fleet, destroyed Pigma, and found out something new about Star Wolf. Let's call it a day.
Krystal: No, something's wrong on Sauria, let's go check it out.
Falco and Slippy: Aw man.
Fox: Can we kick back for a minute?
Krystal: No.
Fox: Dang.

*Star Fox Command*
Krystal: I am angry at Fox. He kicked me off the team and I can't figure out why. I'm gonna piss him off by joining Star Wolf and going out with Panther.
Fox: Why can't you just leave me alone?
Krystal: I don't like you.
Falco: *Shoots Krystal* Haha.

Don't deny that it's true. At least Wolf doesn't constantly try to wear out his teammates with overall useless stuff.

Wow. Most SF fans reserve that kind of hatred for Slippy...

I don't feel too strongly about Krystal either way, but she's probebly the most likely after Fox.

hey johnknight did you also see the boo suit for galaxy

As if that game weren't awesome enough...

QFT.

I agree wholeheartedly with all of your points, Jimmy.

* Cracks his neck and decides to leap into the fray.*

I'd like to insert my two cents into the Sheik argument.

Though Sheik is my main in Melee, I am all for the character getting axed. I'm one of those rare individuals (I think Wiseguy and Fawriel pointed this out at some point) that actually enjoys the character for what "it" (yes, "it;" the he/she/it/potato gag is just too good to not reference in some way ) is and how "it" plays. Not just because "it's" cheap or wins me matches (the latter being far from the truth; Mario mains and even a Roy main destroyed my Sheik at some point or another when I went to tourneys consistently). I have a thing for quick, agile characters in all of the fighting games that I have ever played---Cammy from Street Fighter, Chip Zanuff from Guilty Gear (though I pretty much main everybody in GGX2, so go figure), Maxi from Soul Calibur...the list could go on. Though characters like Fox and Falcon were quick on their toes, they just didn't have the same appeal to me as Sheik (LoZ trumps those franchises in my book). "It" just oozed cool; even in OoT, when it just directed Link hither and thither, there was a mystique that surrounded the character; almost subliminal, if you will. Being the complete doofus that I was at the time, I was genuinely surprised when I found out that it was indeed Zelda parading around as a Sheikah. It made me like the alter ego even more and made me wonder what it would be like to take control of the character in the context of the game.

My wishes were answered in Melee, needless to say.

For Brawl, though, I feel Sheik is irrelevant as a playable character. Though one could argue that it's about the overreaching history that a character has, I firmly believe that some characters in the Smash franchise are colored by the game they emanate from. Zelda is a good example of this. The essence of Link's character is like a paint-by-numbers montage; there were slews of games to pool from for a great moveset. Poor Zelda played the damsel-in-distress for X amount of those games; aside from a couple of minor cantrips (ala LttP), what in the hell could she do that was so great? It's not like she could go "she-bam!" and whup the crap outta baddies. Link always pulled her fat out of the fire.

Here comes OoT, though. Zelda is actually shown to be a competent and intrinsically powerful magic-user (blessing Link's arrows with the power of light, pinning Ganon to the ground with powerful magicks, changing her bloody gender, etc). This undoubtedly helped to shape and mold her character into what she was. Out from this mold sprang Sheik; since she did help move the plot along (and moving the plot along is one of the most important things to do when crafting a story; as a writer, I am cognizant of this fact), that gave her just enough clout to be added in.

Here comes TP. I haven't played it, but Wisey and Mendez have made it a point to spoil **** for me. Zelda's back, people. Still a magic-user (with a sword attachment). But wait. Where is Sheik?

Nowhere. TP is an entirely new game set with new characters (well, sort of). Because of this, canonically, Sheik is obsolete. She should have no bearing on this current incarnation of Zelda because, technically, it isn't the same character. Yeah, we all saw Din's Fire in that little vignette of a trailer from E3; however, that would still be a sensible addition to her moveset. Though it emanates from OoT, it's just a spell; something that anybody as savvy at sorcery as our resident Triforce of Wisdom wielder should know. It could easily carry over. The transformation mechanic, however, is an entirely different animal. There was no alter ego in TP; there was simply Zelda, the sorceress and princess. Like before, I think Sakurai and Company will go with what's most recent for Zelda in terms of appearance and gameplay because that seems the way to go with the character.

Blargh. I know my argument was inconsistent in some places, but hey. I'm tired and I'm participating.

Lol.

Smooth Criminal

Edit: Wow. One hundred pages of goodness, Wiseguy. Awesome.

Wow, you've pretty much summed up the entire debate right there. Very well reasoned, and I like your uinque take on the debate a Sheik main.

you know this thread might have just hit 100 pages but it probably has the most words due to these long post debates

and i love it

well wiseguy you should be bittersweet

there's now an animal crossing stage but tom nook is one of the spectators in the town so he's probably not a character

Yeah, I just saw that too. Oh well, at least we get an incredible AC stage. I'll be playing Brawl every Friday at 8:00 hense forth.

To bed with me.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

[Soodey]

ITS SATURDAY AT 8
JK, but seriously its saturday

i need my sleep....

 

[MikaRabidKitsune]

Check this out:

Tom Nook = UNCONFIRMED!

Wasn't even good enough to be an AT...

You're doing it wrong.

More like this

 

[Lord_Deathborne]

You're doing it wrong.

More like this

LOL! Oh well... Another one bites the dust...

 

[DonkeySmasher]

just to add fuel to the fire look at zamus move in the air

now who else has a dair like that hmmm i think sheik

zamus is getting more evidence as an incarnation of sheik

now i am both terrified (is she broken) and happy (sheik's gone)

oh and is it just me or is bowser getting bigger every picture

 

[Convuls1on]

just to add fuel to the fire look at zamus move in the air

now who else has a dair like that hmmm i think sheik

zamus is getting more evidence as an incarnation of sheik

now i am both terrified (is she broken) and happy (sheik's gone)

Im happy(ier) because well. Zamus is alot hotter than her cross dressing friend Princess Zelda. lawl

 

[kma23]

Hey everybody, what I find disturbing is the fact that nintendo of america knows nothing about brawl and are learning about it on the same timline as us.It seem the one holding all the cards is in fact sakurai and ou only chance learning more is to kidnap sakurai and demand info.

p.s I'm going to chicago today at 6 am so ill be unreachable for a week

 

[OysterMeister]

Personally, I don't believe Sheik being cut will solve much. Zelda might be played by an extra handful of people, but nothing short of actual improvements to the character can bring Zelda out of mediocrity. But who knows, the down B she gains might be very very good.

And perhaps the loss of Sheik will allow the addition of other better characters, but as the saying goes, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Giving up what we have now in the hopes for something better later is a serious gamble. And even if it worked, how would we know? What if the time that would've been spent on Sheik goes into someone like Tingle? Would you be able to sleep with yourself? Huh, would you?

On another note, if Zamus truly is a replacement of Sheik, which IS quite possible, then we've gained nothing. No extra time for new characters, just time spent disguising an older one. Possibly a poetic end, considering Sheiks nature as a disguise.

It seems the biggest gain for cutting Sheik will be peace of mind. All those people who are uncomfortable seeing the new Zelda model become Sheik will be able to rest easy. And all the people who hate Sheik will also be able to relax... well, assuming that Zamus isn't the new Sheik. Otherwise it's pretty much the same hate with a new face.

Well, that's the end of my Sheik defense. The thread seems to be moving on, but I wanted to get my last licks in, so to speak.



Oh, one last thing. Wiseguy, I was going to bring up the Dedede as a Kirby clone thing, but it seems somebody beat me to it. Still, you did say that you still though it possible. Now, I happen to know quite a bit about animation, and if you're interested, I can tell you exactly why it's impossible for Dedede to be a clone. Purely in the scholarly pursuit of knowledge, and because it's something I actually know.
Still here? Cool. The answer is rigging. Think of it as the skeleton of the model. Without one, you can't animate a figure. Kirby's rig is missing certain parts that Dedede's rig would have to have, namley: elbows, wrists, a waist, and a neck. If Dedede was a Kirby clone, he'd wind up looking like Bowser when he's given Jiggy's moveset in those moveswap videos: just plain stupid.

 

[Devastlian]

Nowhere. TP is an entirely new game set with new characters (well, sort of). Because of this, canonically, Sheik is obsolete. She should have no bearing on this current incarnation of Zelda because, technically, it isn't the same character.

Canonically, Sheik never existed in the timeline that TP is in. Unless Link told Zelda about it or she somehow remembered it from the possible future it never happened in TP's history.

About online, I wouldn't be too disheartened if it's out...it'd be kinda cool, though. This silence and lack of comfirmation of its absence makes me think they want it to be some sort of suprise.

About SMG and MP3, both look awesome, can't wait, etc. etc. I liked this year's E3. I wasn't expecting a whole lot, TBH...Even though a good majority of the games I wanted to see weren't there. It was still pretty cool, though. MP3 title screen song is teh secks as is all of the SMG music...<_<

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

Now, before I start, I would like to say that I am not calling you wrong. Currently, the evidence DOES indicate that Nook will not be playable. (Just as the evidence indicates that Midna [w/ or w/o Wolf Link], Krystal, Wolf, Diddy, AND Sonic will be playable.)

HOWEVER...

Did it ever occur to you that it is possible for Tom Nook to be a background character when he's not fighting?

After all:
Kirby appears on one of his levels (not sure which one) in the background.
Captain Falcon's racer appears on both of his courses and who else would be driving Falcon's car, but Falcon himself. (It could be auto-pilot.)
Mr. G&W frequently appeared on Flat Zone. (Not even questionable.)

All three of these character are playable AND appear in the background...



AND, if worst case scenario were to happen and Nook isn't playable, there IS still Mr. Resetti who represents Animal Crossing just as equally as Nook and KK(?).

 

[Lord_Deathborne]

Now, before I start, I would like to say that I am not calling you wrong. Currently, the evidence DOES indicate that Nook will not be playable. (Just as the evidence indicates that Midna [w/ or w/o Wolf Link], Krystal, Wolf, Diddy, AND Sonic will be playable.)

HOWEVER...

Did it ever occur to you that it is possible for Tom Nook to be a background character when he's not fighting?

After all:
Kirby appears on one of his levels (not sure which one) in the background.
Captain Falcon's racer appears on both of his courses and who else would be driving Falcon's car, but Falcon himself. (It could be auto-pilot.)
Mr. G&W frequently appeared on Flat Zone. (Not even questionable.)

All three of these character are playable AND appear in the background...



AND, if worst case scenario were to happen and Nook isn't playable, there IS still Mr. Resetti who represents Animal Crossing just as equally as Nook and KK(?).

Now I'm not writing Nook off just yet either, but considering your argument, Blue Falcon =/= Captain Falcon in the flesh (and similarly, Fox's Arwing =/= Fox McCloud himself) and having actually played a few G&W titles, there are some games where several Mr. G&W-type characters are featured (for example Fire - 1980). And the "character" Mr. Game & Watch actually didn't exist before SSBM, as he was created to represent the entire G&W line... Not sure about the Kirby bit, though... I certainly can'tseem to recall him being present in the background of any stage... (other than breifly being present off in the horizon after getting smashed away, of course... )

 

[Devastlian]

Kirby appears on one of his levels (not sure which one) in the background.

I think you're thinking of Bronto Burt:

Captain Falcon's racer appears on both of his courses and who else would be driving Falcon's car, but Falcon himself. (It could be auto-pilot.)

The F-Zero racers (the Mute City ones anyway...I think the Big Blue ones are slightly smaller than the ones in the intro and the ones in F-Zero GX) are too small for people to ride in anyway so they're probably on auto-pilot or remote controlled.

Mr. G&W frequently appeared on Flat Zone. (Not even questionable.)

Well...other G&W people appear when he does his up-B move and in the G&W games so there're probably more than one.

Darnit, Lord_Deathborne.

 

[FrozenRoy]

WARNING: Pokemon rant ahead.

Okay, I like your list. It's good, fairly realistic.

Except for the pokemon section.

Only four is the first flaw IMO. Pokemon is the second most selling franchise of Nintendo(only Mario sells more games), one of the most competitive(Just check out Smogon.com to see how competitive) and generally considered good games.

I, myself, think 5 Pokemon reps would be acceptable(I have 6 myself, though my last one could easily be cut).

Now then, for this arguement I'm going to assume only 4 pomeon characters. In this case, I really think Mewtwo should get in before Deoxys(though Deoxys should be in if you have 5). Why?
Well, here's a list.

1. The "original" most powerful. In Red/Blue/Yellow(Hereby known as R/B/Y), he was close to unstoppable and actually banned(Becoming the first banned pokemon next to Mew).

2. If you go by Anime, most likely has the richest history. While Deoxys story is interesting, it just doesn't have the meat of Mewtwo's. Mewtwo got 2 movies of his own, plus an episode on the show.

3. In addition to my previous point, an antagonist. Pokemon does not have an antagonist so far that at the time was doing something evil(Deoxys just wanted his friend, Mewtwo believed that he should rule the world simply because of his own experiences and would go through anyone to achieve his goals).

4. I believe the third most popular pokemon(Pikachu and Meowth being 1 and 2, respectivelly).

5. Veteran, though this doesn't account for much of anything...

6. With so many powers at his disposal, he could easily have a much better and unique moveset then SSBM.

7. In both R/B/Y and their remakes, Mewtwo was found as kind-of a "final boss"-like character.

So, IMO, if you only choose 4 Pokemon reps then Mewtwo should go over Deoxys.

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

Now I'm not writing Nook off just yet either, but considering your argument, Blue Falcon =/= Captain Falcon in the flesh (and similarly, Fox's Arwing =/= Fox McCloud himself) and having actually played a few G&W titles, there are some games where several Mr. G&W-type characters are featured (for example Fire - 1980). And the "character" Mr. Game & Watch actually didn't exist before SSBM, as he was created to represent the entire G&W line... Not sure about the Kirby bit, though... I certainly can'tseem to recall him being present in the background of any stage... (other than breifly being present off in the horizon after getting smashed away, of course... )

Well, there IS another one that I remembered.

If Fox and Falco are both fighting in Corneria and one does their special taunt, then the one that doesn't do it appears in the Arwing. Thus, proving that the background characters CAN be fighting characters at the same time.



Again, not defending Nook, just helping to see all possible angles.

On one hand, I want him to represent a new franchise...
But, on the other, I don't care enough about him to actually be disappointed if he isn't playable.

 

[the grim lizard]

haHA...in your FACE, Wiseguy! Trying to tell me Tom Nook was gonna be in...

Tom Nook: Generic? I'd change my tune if I were you, unless you want the racoon goons knocking on your door.

Nuh nuh nuh nuh, nuh nuh nuh nuh, hey hey hey, goodbye...

 

[Phaazoid]

Mr. Ressetti. he would be a joke character at most, but i am pretty sure that this means tom nook is not playable. in no other stages was the person you played as so clearly in the background. i think he is disconfirmed, but might still make an AT. (or ressetti)

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

Mr. Ressetti. he would be a joke character at most, but i am pretty sure that this means tom nook is not playable. in no other stages was the person you played as so clearly in the background. i think he is disconfirmed, but might still make an AT. (or ressetti)

I would like to counter with:
Flat Zone featured Mr Game and Watch in the background, even while playing as him.

And another one:
Four people can play the exact same character at the exact same time...

And with this one too:
Nook could easily be programmed to only appear in the background when he is not being played.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Is he in the game? Ishe out of the game? Peersonnally, I don't care. If he got in the game they'd just not have Nook in the backround. If they don't put him in, it's just another uncomfirmed character, like Samurai Goro/h. All of the characters I want are pretty much confirmed for Brawl, although I would like more interesting characters in.

 

[HeroOfTime64]

I personally agree with jimmysilverrims. I'm fine with those character who have been confirmed for Brawl (and those characters that might as well have been confirmed for Brawl, I'm looking at you, Captain Falcon.) But the thing is, everybody in any Smash Bros game has one thing in common: THEY CAN FIGHT!!!

Have you seen Tom Nook punch someone's teeth out? That's what I thought.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Did Fox, Captain Falcon, Mr. Game and Watch, Peach, or Zelda fight before their debuets? No. At least not hand to hand combat. Most of that stuff they did was made up strictly for SSBM and why can't they do the same for Mr. Nook. I don't care if he's in or out, but let's not rule out the possibility. Animal Crossing is one of the most popular franchises out there. If they really wanted Nook in they'd find a moveset. If you're having trouble imagining a moveset go to the moveset thread and read up on what our shop-keeping raccoon can do.

 

[HeroOfTime64]

Yeah... One, The jolly old Cap did punch out teeth in his hayday. Or did I forget, isn't he a bounty hunter as well as a racer?