Palpi
Smash Hero
jumpman, nobody is always consistant, no matter what character, that remark was pretty stupid
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Marth losses to mk and ddd 40:60 and maybe rob.The consensus seems to be Marth has no bad matchups other than MK.
They outplay them.How is 5th inconsistent? Assuming you mean a major tourny 5th is still consistent when you usually get around 3rd.
I just don't see how Wario could be better than marth. Yes marth may be doing better in tournies right now, but that doesn't change which character is actually better. A seriously bad match up against MK is nothing you can just shrug off. How have marth's been dealing with high level MKs these days anyway?
Until he gets D3 offstage.Marth losses to mk and ddd 40:60 and maybe rob.
Oh so true. I have a buddy of mine who plays diddy a lot and his "Naners" as he calls them can be more frustrating then damaging. if I get worked up with irritation over them i seem to hit them more, but if you stay level headed and just make sure to take note of them you can get around them easy. Truth be told, if you get on top of one throw it back cause diddy trips over them just the same as you do if ya throw them back.IMO Ii believe the DK and Diddy matchup is 55-45 in Diddys favor But!!!! it isnt that bad as ppl think its actually pretty easy to avoid bananas and diddys move etc i will post a video of me vs ADHD in friendlies it wasnt so serious but you will see how you can fight Diddy and avoids his bananas
Diddy has ADHD doing amazing stuff from time to time, but I believe Falco to be the better character based on matchups. Diddy gets at least 60/40'd by snake, probably a lot worse. Then again, Diddy be laying traps so IDK.Pierce is in the SBR, so I guess he can't make his predictions anymore.
At the moment, it's probably something like this:
MK
Snake
Diddy
Falco
ICs
Marth
Wario
DDD
Wario has been disappointing lately and the consensus seems to be Marth has no bad matchups other than MK. Diddy has amazing potential but this doesn't always show in tournament results. ADHD has been placing well frequently, beating players like Ally. However, he also has placed 5th etc. So he's not consistent. ADHD is also the only really good Diddy.
DDD hasn't had good results at all, so I put him below Marth and Wario.
You guys should know the SBR starts the tier list project way before the release of the tier list, so it will probably be a rough analyses of the current metagame.
Dedede is not better than Wario. Wario has a hard counter (as of now) in the ICs, a tough matchup with Falco, and a few bad matches in high tier. (ZSS has an advantage either 55:45 or 60:40 and Pika I think is 60:40 or so.) Wario I think has bad matchups against Marth, Peach, and maybe Luigi which are less of a big deal.Diddy has ADHD doing amazing stuff from time to time, but I believe Falco to be the better character based on matchups. Diddy gets at least 60/40'd by snake, probably a lot worse. Then again, Diddy be laying traps so IDK.
I believe Icies are way overrated for reasons that DMG has stated. They suffer way too much from counter picks and gay play. Platform camping, gliding under stages etc. I think Meep said that if Icies lose game 1 they can't reasonably be expected to win a set since they'll just be gayed by the counter pick.
DDD is definitely better than ice climbers and probably better than Marth as a character but being ***** by falco and icies doesn't help his case. Marth only has meta as a really tough matchup with only one soft counter in DDD and some scattered slight disadvantages scattered through high tier + snake.
I can't speak for wario >_> Meh, this is how I'd expect the list to look as of today:
Mk
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario
Marth
DDD
Icies
And this is my personal opinion:
Mk
Snake
Falco
Diddy
Marth
DDD
Wario
Olimar.
Wario has insane aerial momentum, which is a great strength, but he doesn't have much in the way of range at all. Quite stubby range actually. And is slightly limited when it comes to KOing moves.
Falco has his lasers, CG, and reflector, but a very gimpable recovery, and lacks KOing moves.
Diddy Kong has his amazing bananas, but lacks good KOing moves, is on the light side when it comes to weight, and is only average in range.
Snake's air game, while slow, is still very strong and worth fearing. He doesn't need to approach at all with his nades and tilts, and while his recovery is somewhat gimpable, there are worse ones out there, and it still has great range.
That's a player error, not a character error. Yes, some characters can punish Cypher. However, a good Snake will keep that to a minimal, most likely by recovering high/DIing high, and Nairing down. Or something like that.In the words of Hitomi of DoA. All it takes is one good hit.....I find snakes recovery if used improperly just once, is good meteor smash material especially for heavier characters with a strong spike.
About his camp game also...how is his camp very good at all, when he can only attack every 5 seconds because of his grenades pullout, cooking, and eventual explosion? His projectile is even more predictable then Din's fire, at least Zelda gets to pick when it explodes, everyone can just count to 3 when snake pulls out his grenade. Sure its hard to approach him because of his crazy disjoints, but why would you need to? the majority of the cast have projectiles, and in my opinion they often beat out snakes.Those weaknesses don't matter cause his camp game, weight, tilts, and grabs (and nair) destroy most of the cast.
I don't think so. I think you're just theory crafting too hard.His strengths are overrated and his weaknesses are underexploited.
What about semi-spikes?That's a player error, not a character error. Yes, some characters can punish Cypher. However, a good Snake will keep that to a minimal, most likely by recovering high/DIing high, and Nairing down. Or something like that.
I think this a pretty accurate statement. Everybody knows Snake has many flaws, but why is nobody exploiting them well? It's very arguable that the player with the most matchup knowledge on top/high tier characters is M2K, and he still has trouble approaching and beating Ally. Whether they place 2nd and 3rd as Snake/Diddy or Diddy/Snake I think will be a result of the BBR deciding the tier off of actual results or theoretical data. I think the tier should look something like this:Bottom line is that Snake has a ton of flaws. But so far people have been unable to exploit them. If and when people find a way to get through his camping game to exploit his flaws he should go down. As of yet it hasn't happened and there is really no denying on any grounds that Snake is the second best in the game.
No safe approach options, poor air game, poor gimp game, poor air mobility, poor recovery.Name three of his flaws.
This is the exact reason the Marth vs. Snake MU has people thinking it's 55-45 rather than 60-40. Marth can juggle very well and Snake is big time juggle bait and we're starting to see top level Marth's compete well with top level Snake's (MikeHAZE and Ally). If some other characters can find a way to exploit these weakness of Snake and change their MU ratios closer to even or putting Snake at a disadvantage, I think we could easily see Snake fall beneath Diddy Kong.His air game is poor because he has bad mobility AND because it is predictable.
Predictable is a lot worse then poor. A LOT worse.I think people need to differentiate between a poor air game, and a predictable air game.
im sure many characters wish they has a 28% aerial or just one as powerful and long lasting like his bair
his lack of ability to cover himself from the front/bottom while landing is the major factor here imo. if he could b-reverse a grenade into a bair instantly, well maybe that would fix things lol
^This. Many other characters have this same fault of poor recoveries, but when you look at it, Snake probably has an above average recovery. He can recover from pretty much anywhere offstage given the ability to tech the stage. You push Snake far enough offstage, it's not enough. He'll just keep coming back until he finally dies from a strong it. And because of this it gives him plenty of time to find that one time you mess up and he gets back on stage. And from there, you are stuck having to deal with a disadvantage.Snakes B reversal and fast fall speed make his air recovery harder to predict than you're making it sound, especially if he recovers high, PLUS he can drop nades/C4s/Nikitas on the way down. Im not saying its not punisheable etc but if Snake recovers high he's usually far from helpless, and as long as he outsmarts you on the way down he can usually avoid taking damage.
Thats why it's easier said than done. There's always the mix up factor, mainly against good snakes.
I know he has decent options if he recovers high but he doesnt always have to be hit while he's in the air to be juggled. He has less options as he's landing and it's easier to get him back into the air at this point. Take Marth for example, and you can see this in videos of MikeHAZE and Ally. He doesn't necessarily hit him in mid air with an aerial to juggle him, a lot of the time he reads his landing and pivot grabs into an U-throw to reset the situation.Snakes B reversal and fast fall speed make his air recovery harder to predict than you're making it sound, especially if he recovers high, PLUS he can drop nades/C4s/Nikitas on the way down. Im not saying its not punisheable etc but if Snake recovers high he's usually far from helpless, and as long as he outsmarts you on the way down he can usually avoid taking damage.
Thats why it's easier said than done. There's always the mix up factor, mainly against good snakes.
There you go again, another scenario with multiple outs. Snake can either go for the stage, or go for the ledge. By recovering on high, you cannot cover all of these options. By going for the stage, you need to try to predict his landing path which could either be far out from the ledge or closer to it. He can mix it up with b-reversals to change his landing site. You take the aerial approach, he just air dodges past you. Or, if you decide to go far ahead of him, the ledge is always there. And if you guard the ledge, he has more methods of mixing it up.He doesn't necessarily hit him in mid air with an aerial to juggle him, a lot of the time he reads his landing and pivot grabs into an U-throw to reset the situation.