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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

BTmoney

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if you want to shine while "running" you have to run cancel. Simply hold down whenever you want to stop then push B down or keep holding down and push B. You can't crouch in your initial dash or while dash dancing so you have to be in the "run" stage and not in the initial "dash/foxtrot" stage.

You can jump cancel your dash into a shine though, but that's more of a Fox thing too. Still useful for Falco but his dash is much shorter than Fox's dash so you can run cancel into a shine a lot of the time.

As far as application goes it's a 1-frame punish/combo starter (shine's hitbox comes out on frame 1, 1 frame is the smallest unit of time in melee so basically shine and rest IIRC are the quickest moves to come out in the game). Shine is everything lol. Their shines are the exact same size as yours so they are just spacing better or using the move more correctly in general. But you'll get it, it's not hard.
 

Rocketpowerchill

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yea being able to jc your shines out of dashing is a good way to punish

also, i used to have trouble shield dropping until i watched a set where axe was commentating and revealed his strat for shield dropping which was to full tilt forward and slide down into the first divit in the control stick, im pretty late i guess but now i can shield drop without risk of spot dodging :)
but is shield dropping any quicker than isai dropping
forexample if 2 falcos shl on a platform 1 shield dropping 1 isai dropping, will the one doing the buffered shield drop be quicker?
 

Divinokage

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yea being able to jc your shines out of dashing is a good way to punish

also, i used to have trouble shield dropping until i watched a set where axe was commentating and revealed his strat for shield dropping which was to full tilt forward and slide down into the first divit in the control stick, im pretty late i guess but now i can shield drop without risk of spot dodging :)
but is shield dropping any quicker than isai dropping
forexample if 2 falcos shl on a platform 1 shield dropping 1 isai dropping, will the one doing the buffered shield drop be quicker?

Doesnt matter if its faster or not. Shield dropping is to either punish a shielded aerial or to get back positioning by being under your opponent.
 

RedGamer

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sheild dropping while marth is under you up tilting = getting put back on the platform and having to try a different aproach = a wase of time and percent
 

ArcNatural

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sheild dropping while marth is under you up tilting = getting put back on the platform and having to try a different aproach = a wase of time and percent

Not so, you can easily shield drop after the uptilt hits the shield and hit them before they can respond.
 

Purpletuce

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Yeah, the only thing that might stop you is if you're a floaty on a high platform? Falco should have no problem. Especially if you opt for a punish like shine.
 

RedGamer

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Not so, you can easily shield drop after the uptilt hits the shield and hit them before they can respond.
Yeah, the only thing that might stop you is if you're a floaty on a high platform? Falco should have no problem. Especially if you opt for a punish like shine.
You're bad.
Using shield drop to punish Marth's uptilt on platforms should be taught as a "basic" advanced tech by now.
OKAY!! I GET IT! I will try that tonight at smashfest.
 

Mahone

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Do you get that if you don't know something you shouldnt post acting like you do and potentially confuse other players?


Or do you just get this ONE specific example?
 

Keblerelf

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Do you get that if you don't know something you shouldnt post acting like you do and potentially confuse other players?


Or do you just get this ONE specific example?
so you're saying he only speak up if he has the right answer? I thought the point of the boards was to exchange information and learn stuff and all that jazz. He posted something he thought was right, was actually wrong, and now he knows the right answer and other people know too.

How is this bad
 

Ziodyne

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shield-dropping is the baby of advanced techniques

everyone wants to treat it with love and care

don't hurt the baby guys~
 

Bones0

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so you're saying he only speak up if he has the right answer? I thought the point of the boards was to exchange information and learn stuff and all that jazz. He posted something he thought was right, was actually wrong, and now he knows the right answer and other people know too.

How is this bad
You can speak up and ask questions all you want, but to go around calling a technique bad or useless when you obviously don't have any experience with it is just dumb. If everyone just posted their opinions as fact no matter how uneducated they are on the topic, it'd be even more impossible to find good information on Smash Boards than it already is.
 

Rocketpowerchill

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haha its all good
point of the boards is to hear out other peoples ideas and opinions and ask questions
probably always gonna be discussion since someone as good as pp doesnt babysit this thread
but i know enough to take in what i ask about and im even thankful that theres even a place where people enjoy discussing my mainz

i dont see this system changing until smashboards becomes a goverment agency and each different zone of SB branches off into different government buildings, like 1 for melee, and 1 for other smash games
and the masterminds behind these posts are followed and watched
also it wud be located in the narrow streets of D.C. where a big ass 500in flat screen wud display majors and other important livestreams for that day
but smash has about 10-15 years before it gets confidential
 

RedGamer

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You can speak up and ask questions all you want, but to go around calling a technique bad or useless when you obviously don't have any experience with it is just dumb. If everyone just posted their opinions as fact no matter how uneducated they are on the topic, it'd be even more impossible to find good information on Smash Boards than it already is.
to be very honest, I remember saying that I live in a region with 7 other marth players.
I've tried shield dropping against them, and what I said would happen has happened to me every single time.
why am I getting hate for posting my own personal experiences?

Edit: maybe I should say a waste of MY time and percent
 

Bones0

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to be very honest, I remember saying that I live in a region with 7 other marth players.
I've tried shield dropping against them, and what I said would happen has happened to me every single time.
why am I getting hate for posting my own personal experiences?

Edit: maybe I should say a waste of MY time and percent
Then say something like, "Everytime I shield drop vs. Marths, I get hit right back on top of the platform. Am I doing it wrong or does it just not work?" Then everyone could simply point out that you're waiting too long to do the shield drop. The whole disagreement with everyone started because you just drew a conclusion from your own experience without considering other possibilities.
 

Ijuka

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By the way. You can "ccc" Falco's dair approach at low %s. You just need to jump into it. This way you're instantly sent into the ground without lag. At least in Falco vs Fox you can punish a SHFFL dair approach with a shine if you jump into it.

It's a risk if they decide to nair instead, of course.
 

Monib

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Is FD really the worst stage for a falco against Marth because of the 0-death chain grab?
I mean, I get that part but wouldnt a smaller stage (like FoD for example) be worse? He could edgeguard you at a smaller % because the stage is so damn small.
Meanwhile you could mix up your DIs for the chain grab and maybe screw him up? I don't know, thinking aloud here.
 

Bones0

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Is FD really the worst stage for a falco against Marth because of the 0-death chain grab?
I mean, I get that part but wouldnt a smaller stage (like FoD for example) be worse? He could edgeguard you at a smaller % because the stage is so damn small.
Meanwhile you could mix up your DIs for the chain grab and maybe screw him up? I don't know, thinking aloud here.
People overrate how much the CG matters, but there's a lot of other aspects of FD that are bad for Falco. First of all, you don't have any platforms to combo with. This can be okay if you get a solid pillar going and read their SDI on your shines, but off of stray hits at mid percents, you lose the ability to chase his landing onto plats and potentially kill hiim off the top sooner than you could off the side.

Another major factor that no plats plays is that you basically can't recover at all. Usually only way you're getting back is if they mess up since you don't have the option to ledge cancel side-Bs on even up-B/side-B onto the top plat if you're recovering from high up. You either up-B which Marth can intercept, side-B to the ledge which Marth can cover really well with dtilt, or you side-B on stage and suffer massive lag and have to survival DI a tipper or just get thrown off stage/into an fsmash or combo that sends you off stage. In short, going off stage on FD is not good news, and it's already pretty bad news on other stages.

Furthermore, platforms can be really helpful for neutral or situations where Marth is trying to pin you down, even including during his respawn invincibility. In true neutral situations, a lack of platforms just limits your mixups. There are plenty of situations where you can go onto plats to cover options more efficiently (when Marth is on the ledge is a big one), so playing entirely ground-based will naturally force you into more difficult coverage options. If Marth worked you to the ledge on most stages, you can jump to platforms to regain your composure and find a way back down with lasers or w/e. On FD, you get no such option. If you get trapped to the ledge, there is no "jump over Marth" option, which means the only way to regain stage control is to go through him. As you can imagine, what follows you getting cornered is what usually happens when people without swords try to go through people with swords. To get a brief idea of how this all comes into play, just analyze how useful your FHs are on DL/BF and compare that to FD/PS. FHing is obviously still good, but it's much more based on what your opponent is doing and how you can come down from that FH safely instead of forcing the opponent to react to your upward movement and countering their reaction.

With all this in mind, I don't think FD is some unwinnable stage for Falco vs. Marth. In fact, even though it's quite difficult, I'm tempted to consider DL worse for Marth than FD is for Falco. Marth loses a LOT of stuff on DL that he relies on in the matchup: keeping Falco pinned, limiting recovery options, and compact/nonexistent plats for optimal comboing just to name a few. Just accept the limitations FD imposes on you, and you will be much more prepared to take on Marth or any CGing character on FD. The reason most people get wrecked so hard on FD is because they try to play it like every other stage. Melee's a whole different game without platforms, so make sure you treat it as such.
 

Xyzz

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I think FD easily is the worst stage against a Marth who's decently proficient at CG and performing combos that aren't escapable via platforms anymore. They really, really hit hard there ;) I don't think it's that bad, because you in return can count on your laser game being somewhat more effective without platforms to worry about as well, but it's pretty certainly the worst stage (lots of falcos rather enjoy small stages in the match up, e.g. for having an easier time comboing marth into some place where a dair will spike him to his death, and the smaller area preventing him from using his incredible movement to its full extent).
 

Bones0

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I don't think FD really buffs Falco's laser game that much vs. Marth. Maybe if Marths actually used plats vs. lasers I could agree, but every Marth I've played seems to avoid plats like the plague. Vs. these types of Marths (i.e. the majority), FD actually hurts your laser game because you can't laser down from plats to surprise them. Every laser you shoot is much more telegraphed because as soon so SH on FD you've pretty much committed to a laser, aerial, or DJ (generally too risky). On other stages, plats open up empty SH options into DJ WLs so Marth can't just assume you're going to land when you SH. It sounds like nit picking, but I think it's kind of a big deal. DJing away on FD is just so much worse than on other stages.

People equate the flatness of FD with better laser game, but Marths deal just fine with lasers when they're on the ground so there's no reason for it to bother them. If you're talking about Fox or Sheik I would definitely agree it buffs your laser game. I personally like using plats in Marth vs. Falco, and I remember Taj showing great usage of them at Genesis 2 where he would do stuff like FH onto side plats and drop through with a fair, but it doesn't seem to have caught on with the general Marth population (because they're all a bunch of followers that want to play exactly like '07 Mew2King; yeah, I said it).
 

Xyzz

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Well, I always feel like they are way more limited on FD... maybe the Marth's of the folks I play are using more plats than most people. But I definitely agree with DJ being rather bad on FD, I just don't think it's that big of an issue (in regards to the laser game, it really sucks when trying to escape from bad situations)... (:
The guarantee that I will land after a short hop is fine to me, I think, since they can't know whether Falco will shoot a laser, attempt to aerial them, or just empty hop waveland on the ground. It's somewhat more committed than on other stages, but I don't really ever sh > dj anyways. Maybe I should :D
 

Bones0

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Well, I always feel like they are way more limited on FD... maybe the Marth's of the folks I play are using more plats than most people. But I definitely agree with DJ being rather bad on FD, I just don't think it's that big of an issue (in regards to the laser game, it really sucks when trying to escape from bad situations)... (:
The guarantee that I will land after a short hop is fine to me, I think, since they can't know whether Falco will shoot a laser, attempt to aerial them, or just empty hop waveland on the ground. It's somewhat more committed than on other stages, but I don't really ever sh > dj anyways. Maybe I should :D
If you're looking to incorporate more SH into DJ, I recommend starting out by shining mid air on their shield when they would normally expect you to aerial, and DJ WL. It is a safe way to see what people like to do in terms of grabbing or WDing away. Once you know they really like WDing away, you can laser to catch them, and if they really like shield grabbing, you can aerial more often. It's kinda dangerous vs. other characters at higher percents because you may get your DJ robbed by something like Sheik's nair OoS, but the worst thing Marth can really do is fair OoS, and they usually won't do it in time since they're expecting aerial shield stun. And of course, if you actually hit them with the shine as they try to move, you are already committed to WLing so you can combo right out of it. Going deeper on their shield before shining makes it a ilttle riskier, but you're also a lot more likely to catch their shield grab attempts or OoS options with a shine.
 

Rocketpowerchill

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i feel falco vs marth on fd is so even cuz while lasers are easier to react to then lasers from plats, it creates the sense that "i will not be approaching" which is good because pp always stays like 3 character lengths away,
this is why its probably my favorite match up cuz the more stage you control the more options you take away from your opponent, and you can ultimately bait a reaction to their bad position and capitalize on more space or an edgeguard

as far as chaingrabbed, i panic mostly but ive been putting my focuses on teching so that calms me a little, and with a guaranteed get out at 16% only really high calibur marths will react sufficiently enough to **** you up

you think cross up is the best option for arial approach on fd, considering the stage control changes instantly it is best to play safer and get the marth to do something oos rather than pressure on a sketchy open area for them to grab you
i legit think if your forcing him out of grab range all the time they will be free imo
 

Monib

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Thanks for the replies fellas, appreciated. What is DJ by the way?
EDIT: Remembered another question.
Is uthrow really the best for falco? I mean, maybe I'm doing something wrong here, but I don't quite get the %s I want to. I personally enjoy dthrowing and tech chasing, usually 2-3 times, and on the fourth chase I do a dsmash (depending on their location, could result in them going offstage in which case I mutilate their pathetic souls with my heel to their face.)
 

Bones0

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Thanks for the replies fellas, appreciated. What is DJ by the way?
EDIT: Remembered another question.
Is uthrow really the best for falco? I mean, maybe I'm doing something wrong here, but I don't quite get the %s I want to. I personally enjoy dthrowing and tech chasing, usually 2-3 times, and on the fourth chase I do a dsmash (depending on their location, could result in them going offstage in which case I mutilate their pathetic souls with my heel to their face.)
DJ = Double Jump

Yes, uthrow is the best. It's the only throw that combos in most situations. Dthrowing and tech chasing isn't guaranteed unless you're close enough to the ledge so that you can cover both tech rolls, but not so close that they can slide off (if they slide off they can grab the ledge immediately). In any other situation, tech rolling limits Falco to just a SHL followup, and you are basically resetting the situation with a slide advantage. It can be a good mixup, don't get me wrong, especially vs. Fox since he gets thrown so quickly and can't tech and vs. Puff who gets thrown so quickly teching is actually difficult, but vs. everyone else they can tech on reaction (something your opponents are probably just not good at).

Instead of hoping they mess up, you can just uthrow and keep them above you. I think Falco's juggle game is a lot better than most people give it credit for. The DI mixups on uairs vs. bairs/dairs is devastating, and his SH, FH, and fall speed combination lets him really work all the different angles above him and still get down in time to keep them from landing if he missed (utilt especially). Just be super conscientious of trading, especially after DJing, and you should get some good damage from uthrow. Also, make sure you are actually doing your uthrow aerials correct in the first place. Go to Training Mode and make sure you are doing it fast enough that they are comboing.
 

Monib

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True, I do think I give too much time before I jump. Alright, I'll give the uthrow another chance (first practicing in training mode) and see how things go.
I like this thread, lots of info I could use in my game.
 

TwistedWinds

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I'm curious, how much does SDI affect knockback on Falco's shine? I can't quite figure out why Bones mentioned reading your opponents SDI in order to combo without platforms. I always though DI played more of a role that SDI with shine combos. I couldn't find any info about SDI and Falco's shine through searching either. :(
 

Bones0

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I'm curious, how much does SDI affect knockback on Falco's shine? I can't quite figure out why Bones mentioned reading your opponents SDI in order to combo without platforms. I always though DI played more of a role that SDI with shine combos. I couldn't find any info about SDI and Falco's shine through searching either. :(
SDI doesn't affect your KB or trajectory (to the best of my knowledge). It simply moves you to the side during hitlag (assuming you SDI left or right) which makes it that much harder to Falco to catch up to you since he is so slow. For proper pillar combos you usually want to dair after the peak of your jump, but when people get full DI to the side they are often just barely within range of a DJ FF dair. With that extra bit of SDI, it usually isn't possible to FF before the dair, and you usually won't be able to get to the ground fast enough to combo from a dair if you didn't FF before it.
 

Monib

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Is there any way to get out of Marth's utilt loop? Maybe not loop but like, when he just keeps uptilting you because you're a fastfalling turkey.
 

Xyzz

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Correctly seeing which part of the utilt they're going to hit you with and then DI perpendicular away from that (they have a nice image on that in Kadano's thread on the boards, use their resources against them! :D)... I'm not sure whether that will theoretically allow escape, but it makes it the hardest for them to follow up.
 

Monib

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Okay thanks xyzz. Second question, when I get knocked down and I'm going to tech (whether it be roll left, roll right, getupattack or just get up) I seem to be eating the tipper of a fsmash. It seems whenever I get up, I can't block right away (i.e. free opening for a hit). Is there a timing to this? What am i doing wrong? Am I doing something wrong, or is the game just like that (where you have a brief period of openness after recovering from a knockdown).
 

Divinokage

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Okay thanks xyzz. Second question, when I get knocked down and I'm going to tech (whether it be roll left, roll right, getupattack or just get up) I seem to be eating the tipper of a fsmash. It seems whenever I get up, I can't block right away (i.e. free opening for a hit). Is there a timing to this? What am i doing wrong? Am I doing something wrong, or is the game just like that (where you have a brief period of openness after recovering from a knockdown).
Ya if you tech and you do either of those, there is a period of time where you can keep getting hit, it's exactly how you extend your combos. You have to guess where he's gonna go after knocking them down.
 
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