PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[RedGamer]

Guys, I hate marth. I hate him. It's the kind of hate that would make the devil proud.
I also have the misfortune of living within a region that has 7 marth players. Since we only have about 9 regularly active players, the fact that 7 of them main marth disturb me.
I used to try to avoid this problem by picking up falcon. It worked for a while, but now it doesn't.
I've gone back to playing falco against marth and it's not that bad.
I was learning the matchup and I started to get better at it...until a brawl player tagged Nike20 decided to come out of melee retirement and skunk me 15-0.
I wasn't actually counting, but we were playing for about 45 mins and I didn't beat him once so it's a guess.

I was frustrated. Not because I was losing (since I'm used to it), but because of why I was losing (missing fast-falls AND l-cancels?! really, fingers?)
I know I was doing something wrong in those matches, but I couldn't put my finger on it (cause it was missing every L-cancel I attempted at the time)
I tried mixing up my lasers, changing my approaches, switching my playstyle, etc.
Please watch my matches and tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Falco vs Marth 1
Falco vs Marth 2
Falco vs Marth 3

Thanks

And on that note about the Falcon thats pretty fair...

I c wat u did thar

 

[Dr Peepee]

shine grab instead of shield pressure

pressure is more of a mixup for momentum stuff the way I see/use it

 

[Bones0]

Guys, I hate marth. I hate him. It's the kind of hate that would make the devil proud.
I also have the misfortune of living within a region that has 7 marth players. Since we only have about 9 regularly active players, the fact that 7 of them main marth disturb me.
I used to try to avoid this problem by picking up falcon. It worked for a while, but now it doesn't.
I've gone back to playing falco against marth and it's not that bad.
I was learning the matchup and I started to get better at it...until a brawl player tagged Nike20 decided to come out of melee retirement and skunk me 15-0.
I wasn't actually counting, but we were playing for about 45 mins and I didn't beat him once so it's a guess.

I was frustrated. Not because I was losing (since I'm used to it), but because of why I was losing (missing fast-falls AND l-cancels?! really, fingers?)
I know I was doing something wrong in those matches, but I couldn't put my finger on it (cause it was missing every L-cancel I attempted at the time)
I tried mixing up my lasers, changing my approaches, switching my playstyle, etc.
Please watch my matches and tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Falco vs Marth 1
Falco vs Marth 2
Falco vs Marth 3

Thanks

It's basically impossible to watch with that quality, but a few things to work on:
- DD after lasers more
- Grab the ledge and abuse invinc when edgeguarding
- Practice turn around lasers so you don't side-B off stage
- Practice up-B angles
- Uthrow should be your go-to throw (FH or quick DJ uair/fair)

All of those you can practice pretty well vs. comps so no johns.

 

[RedGamer]

I was frustrated. Not because I was losing, but because of why I was losing.

but a few things to work on:
Practice turn around lasers so you don't side-B off stage

I'm actually very good at this and I know that I am, that's part of the reason I was frustrated for messing it up.

Practice up-B angles

yes, sir.

Uthrow should be your go-to throw (FH or quick DJ uair/fair).

I feel like that would just return me to neutral, and I hate the neutral game vs marth. I'm always ****ing it up.

Edit: tech skill was only an issue for that day.
the problem is even when my tech skill is on point I still get ****ed up pretty badly.
Any matchup advice?

 

[Bones0]

I'm actually very good at this and I know that I am, that's part of the reason I was frustrated for messing it up.

I feel like that would just return me to neutral, and I hate the neutral game vs marth. I'm always ****ing it up.

You may be good at in practice when you are focused entirely on it, but usually when people mess up tech things under pressure it's because they are focusing on other things and don't have the proper amount of muscle memory to execute mindlessly. Maybe you're right and you just choked though, can't say for sure.

Uthrow uair combos, and even if you don't combo directly out of it, you certainly don't reset to neutral. They are up in the air, where Marth sucks most. Watch PP toss M2K around and practice uthrow uairing/dairing/fairing in Training Mode so you know how fast you can move after throwing Marth.

 

[RedGamer]

You may be good at in practice when you are focused entirely on it, but usually when people mess up tech things under pressure it's because they are focusing on other things and don't have the proper amount of muscle memory to execute mindlessly. Maybe you're right and you just choked though, can't say for sure.

Uthrow uair combos, and even if you don't combo directly out of it, you certainly don't reset to neutral. They are up in the air, where Marth sucks most. Watch PP toss M2K around and practice uthrow uairing/dairing/fairing in Training Mode so you know how fast you can move after throwing Marth.

I practice against people under pressure so I can avoid choking like I did, and to gain a proper understanding of what works and what doesn't.
That's why I rarely practice in training mode. It feels empty.

In the case of marth in the air, I know his options are d-air, counter, and side-b momentum stall -> fair.
How do I cover all of his options?

 

[Bones0]

I practice against people under pressure so I can avoid choking like I did, and to gain a proper understanding of what works and what doesn't.
That's why I rarely practice in training mode. It feels empty.

In the case of marth in the air, I know his options are d-air, counter, and side-b momentum stall -> fair.
How do I cover all of his options?

Hit him before he's out of stun or if you can't, just wait and mix up your timings (perhaps SHing towards the space beneath him to bait out the counter attack).

 

[RedGamer]

how do I play against an agro marth? Or a zoning marth? defensive marth? etc

 

[CyberZixx]

Force his hand with well placed lasers. Don't blindly run into the Marth.

 

[RedGamer]

Force his hand with well placed lasers. Don't blindly run into the Marth.

could you be more specific?

 

[CyberZixx]

could you be more specific?

I don't have a firm handle on the match up as I am learning it myself but I like to play a defensive, movement based Marth and not rushdown or force a conversion myself. I find Lasers mess with my style of play. I am forced to do something about them when I am trying to set the pace of the match myself. I feel as if I am forced to be more active then i'd like and have to find a find a way around them.

A Falco that is more aggressive and tries to pressure me I can deal with so much easier. Now this is just what works on me. Maybe rushdown with lasers will work on them. Experiment with it I suppose.

 

[RedGamer]

the marths I play are rushdown style and we are even. "why don't you play falco?'" I would ask. their response: "nah I like marth"

then we switch characters and I pwn them. If I didn't have such blinding hate for that character, I would actually try to learn him.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You just don't know the matchup. Once you know how to limit Marth, the style doesn't matter all that much.

Shoot Marth outside of his Fsmash/dash attack range. Then move in if he pops shield at all or you see him flailing. Don't always go right in but getting grabs in this case is amazing. Shine grabs work too.

If they rush you then just shoot them so they stop that lol. If they keep on coming then just Dair them as they approach or WD back and punish their lag. CC also works well on Marth as does run up shield sometimes.

 

[JKJ]

Dr peepee, I'd be very interested to hear your take on the Marth matchup. I struggle with it constantly and never seem to be able to get a good handle on it.
How should I combo him/limit his options/edgeguard him/avoid being grabbed?
also is there any reliable way to recover vs marth?
you really seem to be able to handle marths well, im wondering if you have any tips.

Also ditto for sheik if possible
thanks in advance for any advice you can give me

 

[RedGamer]

Dr peepee, I'd be very interested to hear your take on the Marth matchup. I struggle with it constantly and never seem to be able to get a good handle on it.
How should I combo him/limit his options/edgeguard him/avoid being grabbed?
also is there any reliable way to recover vs marth?
you really seem to be able to handle marths well, im wondering if you have any tips.

Also ditto for sheik if possible
thanks in advance for any advice you can give me

this x 2 billion

 

[Bones0]

Shoot Marth outside of his [...] dash attack range.

I wasn't aware such a range existed.

This is really old (almost 2 years? OMG...), but it should be mostly good stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

style is a limiting concept that encourages sub-optimal play. the sooner you drop any notion of style the better off you'll be.

 

[Iron Dragon]

i love your posts max, i just find it unfortunate when you're forced to say the same things because people don't understand/grasp what you say.

also i don't have much knowledge on marth vs falco myself so im out on advice for this one o.o and i cant ask sean anymore lol

 

[Deleted member]

the basis of marth vs falco is that marth loses his main advantage in the neutral of having the ability to move freely and aggressively without commitment. because of this, marth has to revert to the weaker strategy of attacking falco's attacks under the premise that the sword will generally win those exchanges. the problem here is that marth's swings are slow and quite punishable on their own save really well spaced fair/dtilt, so your neutral game quickly devolves into fishing for those moves into grabs or tech chase opportunities into grabs for what i hope are obvious reasons. falco also has a respectable punishment game on marth because marth's combo weight is pretty bad and he has little chance to check falco between hits by throwing out moves because again they're pretty slow, at least compared to falco's.

the trade-off for all of this is that when marth gets you, he REALLY gets you (as usual) and marth can convert into a kill quite quickly if he's given the chance to do so. this creates all sorts of risk/reward evaluations in the neutral game, where falco has the upper hand (falco always has the advantage in neutral obviously) but marth is generally the more dangerous character after a successful conversion. the MU ends up being pretty even, or perhaps slight marth advantage given the tournament rules (basically can DL64 be banned or not).

@ JKJ: i don't think there's another player with a marth that can sufficiently challenge kevin's falco at the moment besides his own of course. and frankly, i think kevin's marth would straight fuck his own falco in a heads-up match.

 

[Bones0]

style is a limiting concept that encourages sub-optimal play. the sooner you drop any notion of style the better off you'll be.

I don't see a problem with viewing things in terms of styles as long as you're intent on finding the best style and not set on some cookie-cutter model just because it's easier or it arbitrarily appeals to how you want to play instead of how you should play. I just view each player's style as a collection of their overall decision making processes though. If you define it as something different than I'd see why you're so opposed to the concept. I just find it helps me to take a snapshot of my current style so I can compare it to an ideal style of what would be best. The only reason the concept of style seems to trip up peoples' improvement is because they limit their perception of a style. They want their improvement to end on a style that is easy when in reality the ideal style (if there even is such a thing) is extremely complex and cannot be easily conveyed.

I think this demonstrated really well in poor competitive games because they tend to have more distinct styles instead of the subtle nuance of style you find it deep games. There is a clear best "style" for Tic-Tac-Toe since following a few set rules means you will never lose and always win if the opponent makes a mistake. Then you have even worse competitive games like barlw in which everyone is super campy and the spectrum of style seems less vast than that of Melee because there are simply a lot less options. That's my take on the subject.

@ JKJ: i don't think there's another player with a marth that can sufficiently challenge kevin's falco at the moment besides his own of course. and frankly, i think kevin's marth would straight fuck his own falco in a heads-up match.

lol Really? Even PP admitted Mango was whooping his Marth pretty hard in friendlies.

 

[JKJ]

Yeah PP's Marth apparently got scraped. Mango's v. Marth game is really top notch, as is Peepee's. PP's Marth couldn't touch either his or Mango's Falco. Though his Marth is gdlk

 

[Deleted member]

when did that happen?

either way i said that the marths were subpar, not the falcos.

 

[Iron Dragon]

yeah i was about to say to re-read max's post lol.

and max it apparently happened in a bunch of friendly sets the night before zenith

 

[BTmoney]

Compiling all of Max's posts for masturbatory/reasons

 

[Xyzz]

the MU ends up being pretty even, or perhaps slight marth advantage given the tournament rules (basically can DL64 be banned or not).

Can I read this as "DL is worse for Marth than FD is for Falco, compared to their respective 2nd worst stages in the MU"? (: (I kinda feel agreeing to it :D)

And I agree with bones. A style is something each player simply has. We shouldn't strive for a style, but for optimal play in each situation; but our current understanding of "optimal play" is resulting in something that can very well be called "a style".

 

[Vixen]

it kinda is, Xyzz. Falco can chose not to be grabbed on FD. Played right, his laser game is even more potent on FD due to a lack of side platforms.

 

[Iron Dragon]

Can I read this as "DL is worse for Marth than FD is for Falco, compared to their respective 2nd worst stages in the MU"? (: (I kinda feel agreeing to it :D)

And I agree with bones. A style is something each player simply has. We shouldn't strive for a style, but for optimal play in each situation; but our current understanding of "optimal play" is resulting in something that can very well be called "a style".

To me the only thing I can think of as "style" is the difference in who uses sub-optimal decisions at better times. We know that optimal decisions will not always be the best decisions in given situations, adapting is key of course.

On that note I think my perception/definition of style is probably the best thing to define it in an objectively good way. Everything else/the way other people define style is generally just plain awful.

 

[Xyzz]

The optimal play in a given situation is influenced by how you acted in the past and how your opponent has reacted to it. Meaning if you expect him to expect you to do X, you should do Y that counters his counter.
Basically the same thing, yeah.

 

[ElloEddy]

marth vs falco ..is slightly in falco favor in this new meta..where ppl just laugh at lasers .....and realize how as falco is once he gets touched

 

[FrootLoop]

Smash is not really a game about guessing. Option coverage is so strong to the point of removing player interaction. It's like marth chaingrabbing fox on FD. Yes, you can use your controller to change the picture on the screen. No, it's not going to influence the outcome. Positionally winning situations like this occur even without either character being in hitstun, it's just less obvious. This is why I think "adapting" in the sense that smashers always use is extremely overrated.

 

[Bones0]

Smash is not really a game about guessing. Option coverage is so strong to the point of removing player interaction. It's like marth chaingrabbing fox on FD. Yes, you can use your controller to change the picture on the screen. No, it's not going to influence the outcome. Positionally winning situations like this occur even without either character being in hitstun, it's just less obvious. This is why I think "adapting" in the sense that smashers always use is extremely overrated.

I don't agree at all that just because you can cover a lot of options that the game isn't extremely interactive between the players. Using your example of Marth CGing Fox on FD, the Fox could DI off stage and try to do something that way or DI to the center and get comboed longer. There are a million variables that change how those two interactions will work and Marth can hardly cover every option optimally (if he can even cover them at all). If that were the case, people wouldn't need good DI or teching habits or mixups out of wakeup/when falling downwards to the stage.

Most situations give the disadvantaged player at least one out, and even if the opponent is capable of covering all of the options, the way they cover those options will lead to different punish strengths. People only want to talk about hard reading, but soft reading seems to be extremely important in Melee. It's usually beneficial to guess their decision as a main option you will cover with the strongest punish, and then you cover options that seem less likely with less effective punishes. A good example is Mango's staple up-B above GUAs. When he DJs above a person landing on a plat, he may soft read a tech roll that he has spaced himself for so he can bair them, but if they tech roll the other way or miss the tech and GUA through his attack, he can always land with a dair or up-B above them instead. Those punishes aren't as strong as the bair that would have KOed, but it's better than not covering the options at all, and trying to cover them all equally is usually impossible so reading well is a necessity.

 

[FrootLoop]

I don't agree at all that just because you can cover a lot of options that the game isn't extremely interactive between the players. Using your example of Marth CGing Fox on FD, the Fox could DI off stage and try to do something that way or DI to the center and get comboed longer.

Not just a lot of options, all options. 1 player game. Yes he can influence the picture on the screen, no he can't avoid death.

There are a million variables that change how those two interactions will work and Marth can hardly cover every option optimally (if he can even cover them at all). If that were the case, people wouldn't need good DI or teching habits or mixups out of wakeup/when falling downwards to the stage.

The only reason for these is that people are bad, so you want to test all corners of their coverage incase their badness lets you out.

Most situations give the disadvantaged player at least one out, and even if the opponent is capable of covering all of the options, the way they cover those options will lead to different punish strengths.

Disagree with the first part, there are endless positions that are just plain losing. Enough such that you can play your entire game around getting them. Disagree with the second part. Given that there are these available losing positions, punishes are all equivalent so long as they keep you in a bad spot.

A good example is Mango's staple up-B above GUAs.

LOOOOOL

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr peepee, I'd be very interested to hear your take on the Marth matchup. I struggle with it constantly and never seem to be able to get a good handle on it.
How should I combo him/limit his options/edgeguard him/avoid being grabbed?
also is there any reliable way to recover vs marth?
you really seem to be able to handle marths well, im wondering if you have any tips.

Also ditto for sheik if possible
thanks in advance for any advice you can give me

Combo him with Shine DJ Dair until.....roughly 42%. Then start pushing him offstage or mixing in Utilt Dair platform tech chase(unless he's by the edge then the tech chase is easy anyway.) If you push him off high it's okay because then you can just Bair him a lot or shoot him a lot or both for free damage.

Edgeguard Marth when he's close by seeing if you can force a swing. If you can then just shield and counterattack or CC. Marth can't do anything off of a sword hit if you are preparing to counter it well. Most Marths grab the edge now so you can just grab the edge and rising Bair him. The idea, as you're kind of seeing, is to kick Marth away until he has to use his DJ and start up-B'ing.

When he has to up-B, there's an interesting game that begins to be played. You, as Falco, can DJ regrab the edge on reaction to Marth's side Bs and otherwise wait through the up-B. Should you mess up or be caught without edge invincibility, you can still DJ backward/in place to regrab the edge OR do an edgestand into Dsmash. DJ'ing backward is for when Marth tries to up-B right to the edge(you will grab it first), and edgestand is for when Marth does up-B far away to avoid an attack or goes into you(probably onstage.)

Recovering vs Marth is just one of those guessing games you go into without caring LOL. You have to pick stupid options sometimes and if you're scared you won't do it. Side B'ing higher into Marth is good for going through his jab, going high then side B canceling is classic but still very good. Try not to up-B to the edge terribly much because Marth's like Dtilt. Going low however is pretty good because it lets you tech to side B him or the edge so that's super powerful. Delay the tech input on counter btw.


Edgeguarding Sheik is just grabbing the edge and sometimes rising Bair lol. Doesn't matter if she gets the edge kinda like Marth you can just do the Mango thing and get on a side platform and drop Bair her. I'd rather shoot into attack/throw during their lag but that's me lol.

Sheik can't cover the edge well at all so going to the edge is great vs her.

style is a limiting concept that encourages sub-optimal play. the sooner you drop any notion of style the better off you'll be.

I like to currently consider style only as a preference for move choices within your "optimal play" idea. A blend of as many "styles" is best of course.

the basis of marth vs falco is that marth loses his main advantage in the neutral of having the ability to move freely and aggressively without commitment. because of this, marth has to revert to the weaker strategy of attacking falco's attacks under the premise that the sword will generally win those exchanges. the problem here is that marth's swings are slow and quite punishable on their own save really well spaced fair/dtilt, so your neutral game quickly devolves into fishing for those moves into grabs or tech chase opportunities into grabs for what i hope are obvious reasons. falco also has a respectable punishment game on marth because marth's combo weight is pretty bad and he has little chance to check falco between hits by throwing out moves because again they're pretty slow, at least compared to falco's.

the trade-off for all of this is that when marth gets you, he REALLY gets you (as usual) and marth can convert into a kill quite quickly if he's given the chance to do so. this creates all sorts of risk/reward evaluations in the neutral game, where falco has the upper hand (falco always has the advantage in neutral obviously) but marth is generally the more dangerous character after a successful conversion. the MU ends up being pretty even, or perhaps slight marth advantage given the tournament rules (basically can DL64 be banned or not).

@ JKJ: i don't think there's another player with a marth that can sufficiently challenge kevin's falco at the moment besides his own of course. and frankly, i think kevin's marth would straight fuck his own falco in a heads-up match.

Powershielding! He gets his DD back with dash back powershielding and this drastically changes the matchup.

Yeah PP's Marth apparently got scraped. Mango's v. Marth game is really top notch, as is Peepee's. PP's Marth couldn't touch either his or Mango's Falco. Though his Marth is gdlk

I lost 66% of the matches, but every match was last stock, usually last hit. Unless the stage was FD or FoD in which case sometimes it was a blowout in my favor, or DL a blowout for him lol. I consider the losses to be based more on my lack of vs Falco training with Marth than a matchup thing. My Marth could totally handle Falco with more training and I learned a lot playing vs Mango(jab and Ftilt are apparently good in the matchup, for example.)

 

[Bones0]

Yes, you can use your controller to change the picture on the screen. No, it's not going to influence the outcome.

If this is true, then why isn't top level play just a bunch of 02d'ing?

 

[Mahone]

Smash is not really a game about guessing. Option coverage is so strong to the point of removing player interaction. It's like marth chaingrabbing fox on FD. Yes, you can use your controller to change the picture on the screen. No, it's not going to influence the outcome. Positionally winning situations like this occur even without either character being in hitstun, it's just less obvious. This is why I think "adapting" in the sense that smashers always use is extremely overrated.

i think this is way more true for falco than most other characters, especially slow ones, so i wouldn't generalize it to "Smash"... you can cut off a lot of options with falco's lasers (especially since people are really bad with dealing with them atm) so it might seem like u can cover a lot/all options in a lot of situations but this is just not true for tons of characters in the cast such as jigglypuff

Also, I usually can tell an argument isn't that good when the example is marth vs fox on fd ROFL




FOR EXAMPLE CUZ IM BORED AND AN ASSHOLE


I think DI is really overrated in smash, i dont know why people bring it up like it makes smash different from other fighters.... CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING.... marth vs fox on fd with fox in a chaingrab, sure u CAN di, but the outcome is the same. People really overrate di.

 

[Bones0]

Now I want to try a modded Melee that disables DI just to see how lame other FGs must be. rofl

 

[BTmoney]

PP, why don't you play Fox? It would be Fox consummation, not the Fox player we deserve but the one we need.
Like old Jman but better.
(There's videos of Jman DD grabbing for about 95% of engagements for an entire set lol)

IMO most of your pressure strings and decisions when it comes to stage control work better with Fox and I've always thought your Falco played like a slow Fox with lasers. And it's not like you don't understand how a movement oriented character operates in neutral and the importance of patience, have you seen your Marth? Imagine your Marth with a sex kick and better kill options.

Just something I've thought about, no reason quit Falco or something like that but I'd love to see what seamless techskill and decision making would look like on Fox in 2013.

 

[Squirt]

Hey guys I'm looking for some critique on my falco vs falcon.

My only disclaimer is that this is the first falcon main I've played.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxkaSe46gis

Thanks in advance.

 

[Iron Dragon]

PP, why don't you play Fox? It would be Fox consummation, not the Fox player we deserve but the one we need.
Like old Jman but better.
(There's videos of Jman DD grabbing for about 95% of engagements for an entire set lol)

IMO most of your pressure strings and decisions when it comes to stage control work better with Fox and I've always thought your Falco played like a slow Fox with lasers. And it's not like you don't understand how a movement oriented character operates in neutral and the importance of patience, have you seen your Marth? Imagine your Marth with a sex kick and better kill options.

Just something I've thought about, no reason quit Falco or something like that but I'd love to see what seamless techskill and decision making would look like on Fox in 2013.

You're in need of fundamental Fox play then? Watch Leffen as much as you can. Watch his matches from salty suite with Hbox, M2K, Shroomed etc and watch his bracket matches that are recorded and put up. You can learn a lot from him.

EDIT: And please don't listen to anyone who blindly assesses Leffen's Fox as a Jman clone/ripoff. Leffen to me is clearly better in every single way. Much much cleaner Fox than Jman ever was.

 

[BTmoney]

You're in need of fundamental Fox play then? Watch Leffen as much as you can. Watch his matches from salty suite with Hbox, M2K, Shroomed etc and watch his bracket matches that are recorded and put up. You can learn a lot from him.

EDIT: And please don't listen to anyone who blindly assesses Leffen's Fox as a Jman clone/ripoff. Leffen to me is clearly better in every single way. Much much cleaner Fox than Jman ever was.

Well when was Jman in his prime? I can't give you specific years but what, like 3+ years ago? It's hard to compare people at different parts of the metagame. You can however compare their relative dominance. At one point some people considered Jman the best Fox (I can't validate that, but I'm going off of what I have seen and heard). I personally think vintage Jman in his respective metagame is a little better than prime Leffen now or a year ago or whenever he is at his best. My Marth is cleaner than Ken's was in like 2004. The metagame grows and becomes more technical and violent exponentially with time. Every Fox player worth their salt should be better than the best Fox 4 years ago, at least that's my opinion on the matter.

I wrote a longer post out but I'll condense it down to I consider every patient Fox a Jman rip. Every time someone starts dash dance camping or they DD on someone's shield, follow noncommittal lines of play (I love when Jman does nothing in a high pressure situations and refuses to flinch or he'll make an insane play on someone because he won't commit first), or only uthrow I think of Jman. Watch Jman mango mango before mango was mangoing people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkAR_jMo5nk
(Tell me this entire video isn't "How good is Mango's dashdance" but Jman instead. And tell me that usmash didn't scream a mango thing.)

But I appreciate you pointing out those Leffen sets. I watched them before but I never noticed how good he was at all the micro interactions and he's super patient. He legitimately reminds me a ton of Jman and there's nothing wrong with that. I think he pioneered the patient Fox.