PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[JKJ]

Combo him with Shine DJ Dair until.....roughly 42%. Then start pushing him offstage or mixing in Utilt Dair platform tech chase(unless he's by the edge then the tech chase is easy anyway.) If you push him off high it's okay because then you can just Bair him a lot or shoot him a lot or both for free damage.

Edgeguard Marth when he's close by seeing if you can force a swing. If you can then just shield and counterattack or CC. Marth can't do anything off of a sword hit if you are preparing to counter it well. Most Marths grab the edge now so you can just grab the edge and rising Bair him. The idea, as you're kind of seeing, is to kick Marth away until he has to use his DJ and start up-B'ing.

When he has to up-B, there's an interesting game that begins to be played. You, as Falco, can DJ regrab the edge on reaction to Marth's side Bs and otherwise wait through the up-B. Should you mess up or be caught without edge invincibility, you can still DJ backward/in place to regrab the edge OR do an edgestand into Dsmash. DJ'ing backward is for when Marth tries to up-B right to the edge(you will grab it first), and edgestand is for when Marth does up-B far away to avoid an attack or goes into you(probably onstage.)

Recovering vs Marth is just one of those guessing games you go into without caring LOL. You have to pick stupid options sometimes and if you're scared you won't do it. Side B'ing higher into Marth is good for going through his jab, going high then side B canceling is classic but still very good. Try not to up-B to the edge terribly much because Marth's like Dtilt. Going low however is pretty good because it lets you tech to side B him or the edge so that's super powerful. Delay the tech input on counter btw.


Edgeguarding Sheik is just grabbing the edge and sometimes rising Bair lol. Doesn't matter if she gets the edge kinda like Marth you can just do the Mango thing and get on a side platform and drop Bair her. I'd rather shoot into attack/throw during their lag but that's me lol.

Sheik can't cover the edge well at all so going to the edge is great vs her.


I lost 66% of the matches, but every match was last stock, usually last hit. Unless the stage was FD or FoD in which case sometimes it was a blowout in my favor, or DL a blowout for him lol. I consider the losses to be based more on my lack of vs Falco training with Marth than a matchup thing. My Marth could totally handle Falco with more training and I learned a lot playing vs Mango(jab and Ftilt are apparently good in the matchup, for example.)

I always figured that recovering v Marth was impossible if they know what option you want to do. I guess I was right that there is no reliable way to recover against him but to be unpredictable *sigh*

Thanks for the insight, it really helps. Especially the delay on teching counter....didn't even know you could tech counter. MUST TRY

Do you have any advice for comboing Sheik? I never know what to do after connecting with a hit/getting a grab. You always seem to be able to combo her pretty well.

As to your Marth vs Mango, I was only going on hearsay as to what happened. I guess I was incorrect, but I heard that your Marth got destroyed. Obviously an overstatement by Mango fans lol
I still feel like your own Falco would destroy your Marth. Your Falco v Marth game is too good as Falco

Thanks for the continued high quality posts, insight, and advice. Much respect, i look forward to hopefully playing some friendlies with you at Apex!

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, why don't you play Fox? It would be Fox consummation, not the Fox player we deserve but the one we need.
Like old Jman but better.
(There's videos of Jman DD grabbing for about 95% of engagements for an entire set lol)

IMO most of your pressure strings and decisions when it comes to stage control work better with Fox and I've always thought your Falco played like a slow Fox with lasers. And it's not like you don't understand how a movement oriented character operates in neutral and the importance of patience, have you seen your Marth? Imagine your Marth with a sex kick and better kill options.

Just something I've thought about, no reason quit Falco or something like that but I'd love to see what seamless techskill and decision making would look like on Fox in 2013.

I do play Fox, he's one of my best secrets

I don't really know what purpose he would serve me outside of teams atm but I have a heck of a time playing that character. SO GOOD

I always figured that recovering v Marth was impossible if they know what option you want to do. I guess I was right that there is no reliable way to recover against him but to be unpredictable *sigh*

Thanks for the insight, it really helps. Especially the delay on teching counter....didn't even know you could tech counter. MUST TRY

Do you have any advice for comboing Sheik? I never know what to do after connecting with a hit/getting a grab. You always seem to be able to combo her pretty well.

As to your Marth vs Mango, I was only going on hearsay as to what happened. I guess I was incorrect, but I heard that your Marth got destroyed. Obviously an overstatement by Mango fans lol
I still feel like your own Falco would destroy your Marth. Your Falco v Marth game is too good as Falco

Thanks for the continued high quality posts, insight, and advice. Much respect, i look forward to hopefully playing some friendlies with you at Apex!

Grab Uthrow Sheik and if the lasers hit you get a combo but if they don't then just roll with it. Falco can still destroy Sheik from below with Bair and Utilt so don't freak out for auto-hit moves. You can get way more mileage out of making her lose her DJ and then kicking her over and over lmao.

If you get a shine then it's a lot like Marth honestly. I'd recommend doing roughly the same thing(shine DJ dair etc etc) until you learn when you can do variations with Utilt or double Dair for mixup DI kills.

Falco has more experience than Marth, but over time.......


Edit: oh, and thank you very much! =)

 

[Iron Dragon]

snip

This convo will probably go on for too long so if you want to talk about it more you can PM me or I can etc but one last reply....

Pioneering something =/= same as ripping it off. In addition, I think it's a little bit easier to compare 2011 and 2013 than it is 2013 to 2004 or 2008 even etc.

I'd also say that there were definitely Foxes who played like Jman before Jman. PC Chris was doing it really well and though there is limited footage of Forward's Fox from 2007-2008 (what there is of it is all negative/bad matches) I would say he also was doing it as well (though anything about Forward said by me you should probably take with a grain of salt).

AND ONE LAST THING is that I think Leffen's tech skill is STILL a lot lot cleaner, and that's one thing that never changes.

 

[BTmoney]

I don't really know what purpose he would serve me outside of teams atm but I have a heck of a time playing that character. SO GOOD

Other than being the best player in the galaxy.

This convo will probably go on for too long so if you want to talk about it more you can PM me or I can etc but one last reply....

I'll send you a PM sometime soon-ish. I like talking about things like this especially since I apparently have alternative ideas.

 

[RedGamer]

Hey guys I'm looking for some critique on my falco vs falcon.

My only disclaimer is that this is the first falcon main I've played.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxkaSe46gis

Thanks in advance.

I can help with this. the other non-marth-main here is a falcon main.


basically, you're shooting lasers too close (laser spacing).
he might just jump full stage nair so try your best to stay out of that range.
if you can't get out of there, then try to hit his nair with a laser. usually a high laser.

know his approach options and mix up your lasers. His short hop nair (no fast fall) will go over low lasers and His raptor boost (Side-B) will go under high lasers.
if he approaches from a platform, Up tilt is an anti-air. yep, yep. Also high lasers work too.
If he just runs at you with an aerial, try doing some cross-ups by running underneath his attack and attacking him from behind.

when falcon is in shield: shoot a mid laser to rough him up a bit, then shoot high lasers above his shield to keep him there. Grab -> up throw -> Follow-up ( I like shine for stages with platforms)
or shinegrab if you're feeling fancy. I also noticed you got stuck in your shine quite often. try not to do that.
also try not to miss as many L cancels.
But who knows, maybe you were just having an off day like I was in that marth vs falco video I uploaded. If not, practice your L cancels and don't get grabbed.

edge guarding vs falcon: Super simple. All you have to do is knock him off the stage and edgehog, AND DON'T LET GO OF THE EDGE!
back air cover sooooooo many of falcon's recovery options, so if you have to let go just back air.

being edge guarded by falcon: start doing more ledge hop double lasers. they usually hit.

On FD: he will probably be doing full jump nairs to counter your lasers, in which case just full jump -> nair to counter his full jum nair.
try short hop laser -> double jump double laser to bait out the full jump, then full jump nair/dair to catch him.

I found myself getting hype during that second match on battlefield

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

yea good set
i think the mu looks alot less free since falco and falcon both have stupid amounts of combos on eachother
the only difference is lasers stop his movement and falcons recovery is free

 

[Sauce Boss]

Anyone have any input on the transition from playing Fox->Falco? I'm making the switch based off of a mix of realizing I enjoy playing falco alot more and disliking being in no control over the match as fox. (though that is not a probable issue with most fox players it is with me)

 

[Bones0]

Anyone have any input on the transition from playing Fox->Falco? I'm making the switch based off of a mix of realizing I enjoy playing falco alot more and disliking being in no control over the match as fox. (though that is not a probable issue with most fox players it is with me)

I think Fox has more control over a match than Falco, but w/e. There's nothing to really learn in particular. Falco is completely different than Fox so you kind of just have to learn how to play Falco.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

is powershielding a legitimate skill in melee, like a necessity so great that lacking powershielding wud hurt your own playstyle?, or is it you know... it happens sometimes, then he gets a powershield grab.
i hardly ever see a marth with an outstanding powershield game, probably cuz the2013 falco isnt gonna get away with too much shls anyway

but ive seen other guys use it like zhu, which can change momentum or put someone deeper in a hole.
i never learned the timing and when i try and be fancy and go for a powershield, i protect myself so i usually shield sooner than when your supposed to cuz im afraid of being hit.

i just think knowing how to powershield more extensively for both projectiles and moves ( which is an absolutely amazing option ) wud benefit a player of any character

also doesnt certain mus and characters rely on powerhshielding for punishing and approaching
like against falco or anyone with a good projectile
or like a peach who can punish quick with like a nair right idk?

 

[Xyzz]

Do you see the top5 use constant power shields?
No? Why would you get the idea it could be 'mandatory' then?

Do you see some people use it to great effect?
Yeah? So it's apparently helpful and you can see if it's something you want to implement into your gameplay.

 

[Bones0]

Powershielding is a (really powerful) mixup.

 

[RedGamer]

I find myself powershielding when I don't mean to. for me, it's just reaction. kinda like a "oh crap the knee came out of nowhere! I sure don't want it to hit me" type thing. I now powershield every other attack using the same knee jerk reaction. (pun intended)

 

[BTmoney]

Grab Uthrow Sheik and if the lasers hit you get a combo but if they don't then just roll with it. Falco can still destroy Sheik from below with Bair and Utilt so don't freak out for auto-hit moves. You can get way more mileage out of making her lose her DJ and then kicking her over and over lmao.

Okay lol I don't know how Falco's uthrow works at all. They only get hit by the lasers if they don't DI it yes? Idk if someone could fill me in more that would be great because my grab game with Falco is trash.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can DI to the side and avoid lasers or not DI it and get hit by lasers haha. You can still get hit if you dodge the lasers but it depends on percent.

 

[Deleted member]

honestly it seems like upthrow combos get much easier if they DI out of the lasers, not sure why. must be one of those feel things.

 

[KP17]

Is there always enough time to react to which way the opponent SDI's the lasers on uthrow?

 

[Bones0]

How the **** are you supposed to play Falco dittos? I'm getting pissed. It just feels like a bunch of random lasers and then I start getting comboed. I try to use platforms, but every approach from them just seems super telegraphed.

 

[KP17]

every laser in falco dittos are more important than in other matchups imo. platforms aren't the only way to deal with lasers. i havent seen any vids of yours, bones, but i suggest working on your shield + movement game in between lasers. ccing lasers works as well, but its pretty situational

 

[Bones0]

every laser in falco dittos are more important than in other matchups imo. platforms aren't the only way to deal with lasers. i havent seen any vids of yours, bones, but i suggest working on your shield + movement game in between lasers. ccing lasers works as well, but its pretty situational

I PS a good amount, but I don't want to rely on it and I can WD OoS after shielding lasers, but they still just steamroll me with a SHFFL.

 

[KP17]

some things i am working on right now is mixing up wd OOS forwards with backwards whilst observing what the falco wants to do with lasers. if youre getting steamrolled by a shffl'd dair I think that youre being too predictable with the WD.

another thing about the ditto is that you have to have a happy medium between dealing with the other falco's lasers and pressuring with your own lasers. At mid range I enjoy laser stalemate situations where we both have similar timings, bc then I laser dash shield in quick succession in order to get my laser out then block the other one, with a high chance of powershielding, in addition to gaining a little bit of space. This scenario also works to my advantage when i pull of the power shield bc alot of falcos will become more predictable after getting hit by 2 rather quick lasers, and many will miss their inputs bc they try to move after the first and get jammed by the second.

if youre getting hit by shffl'd nair, it really depends on the range. if the other falco is overshooting or predicting your retreat, in many cases you can cc it, esp if you get hit by the weak hitbox. when you know you cc'd it go for a shine and start your own punishment.

this is all general advice, ill search you on YT to see if i can help you out any more

 

[Dr Peepee]

honestly it seems like upthrow combos get much easier if they DI out of the lasers, not sure why. must be one of those feel things.

Depends on the matchup and their DI on the lasers and the %. I think it's also pretty hard to avoid the lasers at low percent on the throw. Sounds like a good first thing for Chi and myself to test lol.

Anyway it can be totally broken down into percent ranges but I mostly go on feel because I've done the throw to people so many times lol.

Is there always enough time to react to which way the opponent SDI's the lasers on uthrow?

SOMETIMES

Higher percents they stay stunned longer, and lower percents they can't SDI terribly far usually. Most people have SDI habits on the lasers anyway so if you struggle figuring it out at times go on what they have been doing.

How the **** are you supposed to play Falco dittos? I'm getting pissed. It just feels like a bunch of random lasers and then I start getting comboed. I try to use platforms, but every approach from them just seems super telegraphed.

Yeah I remember when this was me lol. Fortunately I play Falco dittos a ton now so it doesn't bother me anymore.

Learn to get out of laser stun and not put up your shield too early. You have way more time to move than you think.

Approaching from platforms IS very telegraphed that's why you feel that way lmao. Laser down from the platform and get your laser control that way. The vertical game is often how you will establish laser control and sometimes keep it when people start escaping vertically.

 

[KP17]

thanks peepee
but i have a quick question on DI'ing the lasers on uthrow: the hitlag is always the same (bc the damage is the same) so therefore the amount of SDI should be the same at all percents right? and then the regular DI which affects the trajectory is what changes with percent, right?

 

[Bones0]

thanks peepee
but i have a quick question on DI'ing the lasers on uthrow: the hitlag is always the same (bc the damage is the same) so therefore the amount of SDI should be the same at all percents right? and then the regular DI which affects the trajectory is what changes with percent, right?

Yeah, SDI distance doesn't vary.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

so ive heard some people saying that sdi the shine up completely ****s up a falco combo
obviously a shine back in the day usually meant death for fast fallers so i guess the whole metagame for falco dittos is just punish harder than the other falco and limit his conversions
if you sdi a shine left or right, does that mess up a falco combo, i think this matchups potential is ********
i think you gotta get the lead and run away and make your opponent lose his sanity imo

 

[Swann]

Falco dittos are 100/100 falco

 

[michael_li]

ill sum up falco dittos because i play them so much in falco land with my buddies bluntedobject, dieslow and sion.

you laser to force your opponent into shield or rolling
you should grab a lot, upthrows and fthrows
you should try to gimp when you got the chance
you lcancel everything
you crouch cancel stuff a lot
you powershield lasers a lot
you use spotdodge a lot
you shine out of shield sometimes
you combo your opponent really hard
you make sure your forward smash hits them
you dont edgeguard like a re.tard
you gotta have really good movement on platforms and execution

and lastly you gotta play good

 

[Jim Morrison]

Learn to get out of laser stun and not put up your shield too early. You have way more time to move than you think.

What do you mean, doc?

 

[RedGamer]

How the **** are you supposed to play Falco dittos? I'm getting pissed. It just feels like a bunch of random lasers and then I start getting comboed. I try to use platforms, but every approach from them just seems super telegraphed.

as a former falco player, a fellow smasher, and an asian once said to me...

if you get hit by my lasers, just try to reset. I'm getting my lasers out before you can get yours out.

He's asian so he must know what he's talking about, right?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What do you mean, doc?

Sleepy writing lol.

You gotta learn to deal with laser stun and realize it's not quite as potent as you may think it is. See how quickly you can dash/jump/laser back after you get shot and funny things start to happen. The important thing is not getting overwhelmed when you get shot and realize it still takes time for Falco to get to you and he can do it in intervals(lasers or SHFFLs but not a quick dash) but not all at once.

 

[Nintendude]

How the **** are you supposed to play Falco dittos? I'm getting pissed. It just feels like a bunch of random lasers and then I start getting comboed. I try to use platforms, but every approach from them just seems super telegraphed.

My Falco is scrubby as hell so take this with a big grain of salt but imo you should use platforms to regain stage control, not to approach. Whichever Falco is currently shooting lasers is the one on the offensive obviously. If the defensive Falco goes to a platform, offensive Falco has to start chasing you vertically. This can involve lasers from platforms or just engaging you directly with Bairs or shine wavelands and stuff. Both of them involve abandoning his ground control though, so if you can find a way to get back to the ground during this you can start lasering and now the situation is reversed. Simple situation would be offensive Falco jumps to a platform and lasers and defensive Falco reacts by dropping through the platform with a laser, thus establishing control.

Oh yeah and when you get a hit press buttons til the other Falco dies.

 

[michael_li]

lol if the falco is approaching you with lots of lasers you just shoot high lasers and stop him or you can powershield it. thats all there is to it man, you dont need a whole theory craft and 100 word essays on simple thing like this. its funny theres discussions about simple stuff like this.

 

[Divinokage]

lol if the falco is approaching you with lots of lasers you just shoot high lasers and stop him or you can powershield it. thats all there is to it man, you dont need a whole theory craft and 100 word essays on simple thing like this. its funny theres discussions about simple stuff like this.

It isn't that obvious for some. Hell, Im playing SF competitively and even then the basics of the game isn't obvious to me. right now. We all have to go through it. I have like 3300 PP and im still bottom scrub of this community. I thought I knew how to play but then.. lol.

Take for example DDing, some people only know how to use it to be patient but nothing else so often enough they'll get hit out of the dash dance because they will do it even though the spacing between you and the opponent isn't safe to do it. So next time, they'll have to go back to the drawing board, maybe not DD as often but counter-attack an incoming attack. (Assuming they already know how hitboxes interact with each other)

 

[michael_li]

your right roustane, i forgot not all pple are fortunate enough

 

[Bones0]

lol if the falco is approaching you with lots of lasers you just shoot high lasers and stop him or you can powershield it. thats all there is to it man, you dont need a whole theory craft and 100 word essays on simple thing like this. its funny theres discussions about simple stuff like this.

I'd love to see some footage of you playing Falco dittos vs. PP or Mango.

 

[michael_li]

maybe one day

 

[Purpletuce]

Michael, were you at NWM? You come up on occasion on my Facebook, and you like similar, but I can't tell.

 

[RedGamer]

I'd love to see some footage of you playing Falco dittos vs. PP or Mango.

oh, no wonder you're getting wrecked

 

[knightpraetor]

it's times like these that help me realize how much of a jerk i am...

*secretly pleased to see falco players unable to deal with lasers even when their char has much better options than most of the cast for dealing with them*

but yeah..use platforms a lot to regain neutral. Strike FD if you aren't the better gunman. shield high laser if they aren't on top of you when they laser so that you can get your own laser out. if they are getting on top of you and landing lasers on you with them just out of range...welcome to the losing game..where most of the cast starts their match vs falco..

you can give up stage space to regain control by ensuring that the laser hits you while you are far enough away that if the falco dashes in during the laser advantage the extra room means you will be out of stun just when he gets close enough to actually throw out moves. Giving up stage space is of course risky..but it's a hell of a lot better than sitting in shield and trying to wd out back hoping the falco is one of the 99,000 moronic falcos that attack shields

Honestly as long as you have a big stage this method of achieving neutral is probably one of the best.
Powershield is also decent of course.

but really, if you have platforms as falco you shouldn't have it that bad...plus you can do the same thing to him, so just learn to apply what he is doing to you

 

[Spaghetti]

YO GUYS, getting into the melee scene from being mostly a brawl player

how are you supposed to shine? i know about the combos like dair/nair/misinputted fair into shine, and shining when people are above you on platforms and wavelanding on the platform and whatnot, but whenever i watch pro falcos play their shines always seem to hit farther than mine - i can't get crouch cancelled shines to work because i always end up too far away to shine

also i see people like run up and shine - how does that even work? dont most characters' options outrange shine?

 

[Xyzz]

Run up shine is more of a fox thing, but it can work with Falco as well. The point is, if your opponent isn't putting a hitbox in front of him to prevent you from running in, you can just do that, haha. Or it might be a lag punishment where you move in and shine while he is still in lag.

Other people's shine reaching further: everybody thinks that. Keep in mind that sometimes hurtbox distortions from using moves extend them into a range where they'll be hit by shine where just standing still wouldn't have.