PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

How you want to DI utilt is heavily dependent on a ton of random factors like stage, percent, stock count, positioning, etc. At lower percents, you can't do anything to get out of utilt combos aside from SDIing wonky to mess them up. I'd focus more on the actual strategy of your DI. By that I mean, instead of worrying about getting out of the combo, worry about how the combo will continue. I often DI away from the direction Marth is facing when he utilts because even though I'll go straight up and get utilted 2-3 more times, it can keep me in the center of the stage instead of at the ledge or give me an escape route via the top plat way sooner than if I am above side plats. Marth's combos get way worse when you figure out how to avoid getting sent off stage because Marth sucks at KOing. I'll survival DI upward moves at 50% even if it means taking 60% more because I will eventually get out, and when I do Marth no longer has grab followups, which is a HUGE DEAL. By contrast, you could combo DI at 50% so you only take 20%, but then you're off stage and likely to get edgeguarded, and even if you get back, you're at a percent where they can still get a grab followup to knock you back off stage.

Obviously, I'm not suggesting that you NEVER DI towards the ledge. Sometimes it's fine if you can slide off or if you are at a good height/position to recover, but more often than not it's what Marth's expect and want. When you start DIing to keep yourself in the center of the stage, Marth has to start using more fair/nair to knock you off instead of utilt/uair, and once he has to start using those moves, you introduce all kinds of DI mixups that give you escape opportunities where there were previously none. You should just be able to feel it in your gut, but let's say the Marth you are playing keeps utilting. When he realizes you've DIed to center stage on three utilts in a row, he has a tendency to choose the next move as one to knock you off stage. If you know when he commits to that move, you can DI it away and live.

Oh, and that reminds me, never jump during Marth combos. You NEED that DJ to have any hope of getting back in even the most generous edgeguard scenarios. Please, please, please don't be that Falco that jumps out after the second or third move of a combo and the Marth simply uses his giant sword to restart the combo. Even when there's a platform you think you can jump to or something, it's still really risky.

But to go back to the actual utilt combo in the beginning, the most important thing is to not do NO DI. Neutral DI on utilt is terribad and is basically the worst of both worlds. If you DI in you get comboed more and aren't by the ledge, and if you DI away you get comboed less but are stuck at the ledge, but no DI at all just means they can continue the combo and you are closer to the ledge. It also leads to super frustrating utilt-dair gimps at 50% or so where you feel like your stock was robbed because he landed a lucky utilt when you weren't ready for it.

Okay thanks xyzz. Second question, when I get knocked down and I'm going to tech (whether it be roll left, roll right, getupattack or just get up) I seem to be eating the tipper of a fsmash. It seems whenever I get up, I can't block right away (i.e. free opening for a hit). Is there a timing to this? What am i doing wrong? Am I doing something wrong, or is the game just like that (where you have a brief period of openness after recovering from a knockdown).

Magus compiled all the tech frame data HERE. Here's the data that applies to Falco directly ('cause I'm such a cool guy, though not nearly as cool as Magus):

Techs & Getups Frame Data

Mostly self-explanatory. The "Horizontal Movement At" number is my best judgement of the frame you'd be reading and reacting to for the roll in that direction when techchasing. The higher the number is the less time you'll have after reading it to punish before the roll ends.

In general, the ones with high distance and movement values will be more difficult to punish by reaction, though the size and position of the character matters as well like for Bowser his size effectively negates a fair amount of the distance it covers.


Universal and Shared Data


Tech-Neutral

Total: 26
Invincible:
1-20 - [Everyone Else]
1-24 - Pichu, Pikachu
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tech-Wall

Total:
25 - Ice Climbers
30 - Donkey Kong
31 - [Everyone Else]

IASA: 6 (Input an upwards direction anywhere on 1-4 for walljump tech on 6)

Invincible:
1-14 - [Everyone Else]
1-19 - Ganondorf (Walljump teching or performing any action will cancel his extra invincibility to the normal 14)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tech-Wall Jump

Total: 40
IASA: 1
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tech-Ceiling

Total:
26 - [Everyone Else]
25 - Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Kirby

Invincible:
1-18 - Bowser
1-17 - Dr Mario, Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Luigi, Mario, Mewtwo, Ness, Sheik
1-15 - Donkey Kong
1-14 - Falco, Fox, Yoshi
1-13 - Link, Marth, Pichu, Pikachu, Roy, Young Link
1-12 - Samus
1-11 - Captain Falcon, Ganondorf
NONE - Peach, Zelda
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Non-Teched Floor (Back & Stomach)

Total: 26
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Non-Teched Ceiling/Wall

Invincible: 1-15
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Getup-Neutral (Back)

Total: 30
Invincible:
1-24 - Donkey Kong
1-23 - [Everyone Else]
1-22 - Marth, Roy
1-20 - Ice Climbers, Peach, Sheik, Zelda
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Getup-Neutral (Stomach)

Total: 30
Invincible:
1-23 - [Everyone Else]
1-22 - Marth, Roy
1-20 - Ice Climbers, Peach, Sheik, Zelda
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Falco

Tech-Roll Forward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 9
Distance: 14.4 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Tech-Roll Backward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 6
Distance: 14.4 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Getup-Attack (Back)
Total: 49
Hit: 17-19 (Front), 24-26 (Behind)
Invincible: 1-26

Getup-Attack (Stomach)
Total: 49
Hit: 19-20 (Behind), 25-26 (Front)
Invincible: 1-26

Getup-Roll Forward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 6
Distance: 12.4 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Forward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 8
Distance: 12.6 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Backward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 12
Distance: 12.8 ft
Invincible: 12-29 (Not a typo. If the roll takes you to an edge you will slip off unless an attack is timed on that exact frame)

Getup-Roll Backward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 5
Distance: 12.6 ft
Invincible: 1-24

 

[Monib]

Dayum. Thanks for the framedata friend! (also i loled at the "truth" ). How would you go about approaching a Marth, because I can't go from above, his uptilt beats my dair. He spaces me out well so that I can't come in with shl and a sh aerial (i.e. nair).
What should I do? To be more specific, lets use a stage. On Yoshi's story, what would I do to approach the **** with the sword?

 

[Xyzz]

When you start DIing to keep yourself in the center of the stage, Marth has to start using more fair/nair to knock you off instead of utilt/uair

**** fair/nair, go fsmash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gptvWcPxfI :D

 

[Bones0]

Dayum. Thanks for the framedata friend! (also i loled at the "truth" ). How would you go about approaching a Marth, because I can't go from above, his uptilt beats my dair. He spaces me out well so that I can't come in with shl and a sh aerial (i.e. nair).
What should I do? To be more specific, lets use a stage. On Yoshi's story, what would I do to approach the **** with the sword?

You can't outright approach Marth; you have to trap him first. If he's utilting your SHFFLs, you aren't DDing enough. DD when he think you will approach and utilt preemptively, and then you punish the utilt lag (it's hard, but possible). If he's just waiting, start lasering and he will have to make the first move. If he shields, that's your chance to either pounce on his shield or DD to bait his OoS option in anticipation of you pouncing on his shield. You should naturally opt for DDing since it is safer. If you pounce and you're wrong, you'll get counterattacked. If you DD and you're wrong (i.e. he doesn't do something punishable like fair OoS), all he can really do is stay shielding or WD in place/away. Most Marths will WD away as their go to OoS option because it's the safest, but this allows you to take stage. Once he's cornered he loses that option and is forced to either come at you, WD to the ledge, or jump, all of which are bad places for him. YS and FoD are great stages to practice this because they're small which means if you get Marth to shield and do an OoS option properly, you will either punish his bad OoS option or he'll do a single WD and already be cornered by the ledge. If you notice them opting for way more shielding than moving away, start grabbing and crossing him up with aerials. If you go for a cross up, make sure you are close enough that he can't WD back pivot grab you on reaction. If you SH for an aerial at any point and realize he's not going to be within range, laser or DJ out of the SH. If you can't do these on reaction, you are probably doing your aerials too early anyway.

**** fair/nair, go fsmash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gptvWcPxfI :D

He was holding down the whole combo. lol

 

[Xyzz]

Good example of how you should *not* DI uptilt :D

 

[Monib]

**** fair/nair, go fsmash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gptvWcPxfI :D

LMAO, That's my game in a nutshell

You can't outright approach Marth; you have to trap him first. If he's utilting your SHFFLs, you aren't DDing enough. DD when he think you will approach and utilt preemptively, and then you punish the utilt lag (it's hard, but possible). If he's just waiting, start lasering and he will have to make the first move. If he shields, that's your chance to either pounce on his shield or DD to bait his OoS option in anticipation of you pouncing on his shield. You should naturally opt for DDing since it is safer. If you pounce and you're wrong, you'll get counterattacked. If you DD and you're wrong (i.e. he doesn't do something punishable like fair OoS), all he can really do is stay shielding or WD in place/away. Most Marths will WD away as their go to OoS option because it's the safest, but this allows you to take stage. Once he's cornered he loses that option and is forced to either come at you, WD to the ledge, or jump, all of which are bad places for him. YS and FoD are great stages to practice this because they're small which means if you get Marth to shield and do an OoS option properly, you will either punish his bad OoS option or he'll do a single WD and already be cornered by the ledge. If you notice them opting for way more shielding than moving away, start grabbing and crossing him up with aerials. If you go for a cross up, make sure you are close enough that he can't WD back pivot grab you on reaction. If you SH for an aerial at any point and realize he's not going to be within range, laser or DJ out of the SH. If you can't do these on reaction, you are probably doing your aerials too early anyway.

Hmm, I really think I should DD more. I tend to just get back up and run at him doing whatever I can. Thanks for the info bones, as per usual, you know what's up! =D

 

[Heero Yuy]

I recently picked up Falco as a main, or at least am strongly considering him over Peach, my current one.

Before I go off studying the matchup threads and stuff, can somebody tell me the general idea of how to play Falco in the current metagame? It just has to be short and sweet.

 

[Monib]

I recently picked up Falco as a main, or at least am strongly considering him over Peach, my current one.

Before I go off studying the matchup threads and stuff, can somebody tell me the general idea of how to play Falco in the current metagame? It just has to be short and sweet.

I'm not that great, so I'll probably get this wrong, but I'll try anyway.
If you've ever played marvel vs capcom 2, and you ever played a GOOD magneto.
Yea, like that. CONSTANT PRESSUREIZING

 

[Heero Yuy]

I've played a little MvC2 before and I actually kinda know what you mean. xD

 

[BTmoney]

I recently picked up Falco as a main, or at least am strongly considering him over Peach, my current one.

Before I go off studying the matchup threads and stuff, can somebody tell me the general idea of how to play Falco in the current metagame? It just has to be short and sweet.

1. You have lasers
2. Lower lasers basically can't/won't be power shielded
3. Limit how often you can get shield grabbed
4. I think Falco is notably more reliant on mixups (things like spacing your aerials on shield, double shining, shine grab etc.) than Fox is. Mostly because Fox operates much differently in neutral and has a better/staple grab. Fox is actually very linear, in my eyes, so Falco is pretty weird to me whenever I play someone who knows what they're doing.

Basically laser "spam" and either control your opponent to the best of your ability or try to remove stage from them. Apply pressure passive aggressively. Stay as safe as you can while pressuring. Good opponents will expose you. That's just what I think. Study Dr. PP play. He's a bit on the conservative side so determine for yourself when you want to be more aggressive but he hardly ever does anything "wrong" or unnecessarily unsafe. So learn from there.

 

[Heero Yuy]

^ Thanks. I've been marathoning a few Shiz (to view a older and simpler Falco) and PP videos already and they helped a lot.

Have one quick question about multishining. I seem to have a reasonable precision for the timing of the 2nd shine, but I'd like to know how exactly you all execute it with your fingers. Is it better to press the Y and B buttons separately (pointer and thumb) or would it be better to just cover both buttons with your thumb and twitch them back and forth?

 

[Tirno]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I figured out a while back that Falco can shield poke Marth's full shield using fair. I made some gifs to demonstrate.

I made these using Dolphin and did them frame by frame cause that's what I thought would be easiest, but this is by no means a TAS-only tactic. It's definitely doable, though having never practiced it seriously, I can't say for sure if one could become completely consistent at it. Note that it doesn't have to be done from a run, it's just a matter of spacing. So things like nair->shine->shield poke fair can be done. And of course, it only gets easier once Marth's shield is smaller.

If you mess up or they tilt their shield, you might be put in a bad spot cause IIRC fair isn't as safe on block as Falco's other aerials, but I think a good fair on shield will still beat a grab by a frame or two, and crossing them up can prevent the grab.

I don't think it'll be game-changing, but it is interesting and possibly useful. What do y'all think?

 

[Mogwai]

biggest problem is that most people tilt their shields up vs. Falco approaches, though the fact that they can smash DI the first hit hurts as well. Still situationally useful, but not very practical in your average case IMO.

 

[V]

So do most of you have a pocket fox for puff or do you stick it out with falco?

 

[Bones0]

Damn, my fair shield poke trick has been discovered. lol While we're on the subject, any way you can test to see if a FF fair will shield poke (with the 2nd hit) a Marth tilting his shield up? Also, how much frame advantage do they have on 2-hit and 3-hit SH fairs? I feel like fair is always shield-grabbable even if you shine asap, but I can't tell.

 

[ArcNatural]

biggest problem is that most people tilt their shields up vs. Falco approaches, though the fact that they can smash DI the first hit hurts as well. Still situationally useful, but not very practical in your average case IMO.

Agreed, I always Shield DI up once i've confirmed a jump by Falco (and it's easy enough to follow trajectory and move shield accordingly). Now I may be wrong, but I've always done this because I figured the higher up you force Falco to initiate the shieldstun, the more time you have before they hit the ground to get out of hit/shield stun. Giving you a few precious frames to be able to jump oos or grab. Falcos can adjust and just delay their aerials, and that alternatively opens up other options as well.

It is cool that this shieldstabs from the neutral though.

 

[CyberZixx]

So do most of you have a pocket fox for puff or do you stick it out with falco?

Why would a Falco player ever need a secondary? They are flippin Falco!

 

[Bones0]

Why would a Falco player ever need a secondary? They are flippin Falco!

Yet Mango, PP, Zhu, Shiz, and Westballz have all used secondaries for certain matchups...

 

[CyberZixx]

Yet Mango, PP, Zhu, Shiz, and Westballz have all used secondaries for certain matchups...

That does not mean Falco needs a secondary. He hardly has any matchup bad enough for that.

 

[Bones0]

That does not mean Falco needs a secondary. He hardly has any matchup bad enough for that.

You probably shouldn't state things as if they are common sense when your position is at odds with what actually happens in practice. I would agree with you that Falco doesn't need a secondary, but I don't think any of the top 10 or so characters need one either. Just because Falco doesn't need secondaries doesn't mean they don't help or aren't the easiest way to get to the top.

 

[CyberZixx]

You probably shouldn't state things as if they are common sense when your position is at odds with what actually happens in practice. I would agree with you that Falco doesn't need a secondary, but I don't think any of the top 10 or so characters need one either. Just because Falco doesn't need secondaries doesn't mean they don't help or aren't the easiest way to get to the top.

I don't see why it would help that much to spread yourself over multiple character per match up when your main is perfectly capable of winning. Is it just me or do spacie mains seems to have the most secondarys. Not a judgement, just an observation. I wonder why that is.

 

[V]

Why would a Falco player ever need a secondary? They are flippin Falco!

They're copping out anyway (shots fired) so why not cop out more and pocket fox for puff?

 

[Heero Yuy]

I think Falco (or just the spacies and Puff) can generally win tournaments consistently by just going purist. The others, take Marth and Peach for example, have a more reasonable need for secondaries because they're heavily countered by Sheik and Puff, respectively. A pocket Fox would be necessary in any of those scenarios.

 

[CyberZixx]

I don't think Marth is counted by Sheik as hard as old match up knowledge states he is. He can win that match up for sure. I think Spacies, Marth, Shiek and Puff can go solo for sure. Peach and IC each have a hard match up in Puff and Peach, Falcon has trouble with Shiek but it I still possible to go only them. Ironcially Falcon, Peach, IC players seem more dedicated to their character than spacies despite have more match up troubles.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I'm gonna try to go full-blown Falco even though I have a really good Peach.

 

[BTmoney]

Motion to move discussion towards optimizing/focusing on Falco's first-hit game

(as in lets talk about how to actually hit your opponent. If you don't immediately understand what I am poorly articulating, rewatch PP vs Armada at Evo and look at how often and cleanly he actually hit him. I think that is something that PP

Spoiler

it's always weird calling players who often go by their name by their tag, although I don't know PP personally. Everyone calls him Kevin and that sounds more natural to me. You can call me Victor. Hi

is very good at. Does anyone understand what I mean? I suppose what I'm saying is that when he's playing well he's an "accurate" player and his moves do percent. He doesn't hit shield a ton and I think that's something we should talk about especially as Falco).

 

[Heero Yuy]

I have to agree and I feel like sometimes Falco players stress shield pressure too much.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Tirno: Neat. Wouldn't do it much because Fair is not safe on block and sometimes hit lol.

Shield angled up: yup.

Getting good first hits:

You can grab a lot to force them not to shield but this will only help so much. Pressure can be subtle(dashes, slight delays, etc) and that should be emphasized far over going nuts on people when that can often lead to overextensions.

Basically what I'm saying is focus on pressure can be bad if you only see pressure as hitting a shield. All lasers are pressure and can, in a few moves usually, lead to clean hits. It's a bit of planning but it's good stuff.

There's a start.

 

[Swann]

I just wanted to say, Maxwell, that I binged all of the Hikaru no Go manga a couple months ago and I just now actually looked at your avatar. Cool stuff.

I would agree with the sentiment that

sometimes Falco players stress shield pressure too much

as more often than not it seems like there is no real net gain other than perhaps a small psychological/momentum advantage. If we instead stress "pressure" as a general concept, I think these Falcos gain immediate and significant advantages, especially in regard to the ability to force mistakes and get clean hits.

 

[CyberZixx]

I am with ya'll about shield pressure being over rated. Most times it never amounts to much at all. Just looks flashy.

I just wanted to say, Maxwell, that I binged all of the Hikaru no Go manga a couple months ago and I just now actually looked at your avatar. Cool stuff.

It is good stuff. I needed an avatar a couple months ago and was randomly feeling nostalgic about Hikaru No Go. I used to read that back in the day when I would buy monthly Shonen jumps. Was my favorite.

 

[Monib]

How do you beat Marth's nair? Like, I get rushed down by SHFFL nair and I can't find a poke to beat it + I can't shield grab :| Halp!

 

[Bones0]

How do you beat Marth's nair? Like, I get rushed down by SHFFL nair and I can't find a poke to beat it + I can't shield grab :| Halp!

You should be able to shield grab unless he spaces it. Try dashing forward a little into shield when you see Marth getting into position for a SHFFL nair. Moving forward a little will totally throw off his spacing. Even if you can't shield grab it, Marth can't do anything super dangerous after it. Just don't be predictable with your OoS option. If you can't shield it well in the first place, try to get used to ASDIing down and holding L any time you get hit by it. The first hit is very jab-like, so CC/ASDI down is your friend. In general, there's no way to beat nair directly. You can't beat any of Marth's moves directly cause he has a giant sword. That's just the nature of playing against Marth, so if you find yourself constantly trading or getting your attacks beat outright, you're playing the matchup wrong.

 

[Monib]

I see. I guess my frustration / stubborness leads me to believe i can turnaround bair him if i try 100 times. Maybe the 101st time will be different .
Thanks bones!

 

[SUNG666]

If the nair is delayed on your shield you can never shield grab it no matter how close it is, he'll be able to dash away/through you in time, but I don't think this is that important to you right now. You seem like a newer player, Monib. I wouldn't really focus on combos or getting combo'd or edgeguarding or recovering. I'd just try and understand how to get hits and how to avoid getting hit. To put it simply, try to bait out attacks and then go in and counter attack with your own aerial/grab/dash attack/etc. This is a concept you can apply to all matchups.

A general, fundamental way to play is to mix up your laser and dash dance game. Make it hard for him to go in at you and be ready to counter attack when he does commit. This is all so that you can get hits and avoid getting hit. If you notice that he likes to do something whenever you enter a certain distance between you and him then you can keep dding weaving around that range and wait for him to do it and then you can use that opportunity. You said he liked to rush at you with a sh nair, at what distance between you and him does he start it? How can you position yourself to hit him before or after his nair comes out? It's true that you can't beat marth's aerials outright if his angle of attack is good but as long as the hitbox ends (when the actual attack part of his nair ends) any one of your attacks can hit him without resistance. If you manage to space yourself facing away from him and sh while he is nairing and his nair ends below you, then your back air will hit him.

Lasering is really vulnerable, if you tend to get hit as you're getting your laser out I'd recommend you thinking about what conditions were met when you did that laser. Was it after you entered a certain distance away from your opponent? How was it predictable? Mixing up dash dance makes it hard for your opponent to know when you're going to laser and they'll be more hesitant and might commit to more pre emptive actions that you might be able to punish.

But you don't have to/shouldn't establish or commit to a dash dance game before anything happens though. Sometimes going with the first option might be best if you see a guaranteed opportunity.

A great way to improve is to record playing against him. Play a set, go over it, he can talk about how he's hitting you or what he's looking for. Also think for yourself, every time you get hit, ask yourself why you got hit.

Just my thoughts. If you try this and see that it works then question why it really does.

 

[Monib]

If the nair is delayed on your shield you can never shield grab it no matter how close it is, he'll be able to dash away/through you in time, but I don't think this is that important to you right now. You seem like a newer player, Monib. I wouldn't really focus on combos or getting combo'd or edgeguarding or recovering. I'd just try and understand how to get hits and how to avoid getting hit. To put it simply, try to bait out attacks and then go in and counter attack with your own aerial/grab/dash attack/etc. This is a concept you can apply to all matchups.

A general, fundamental way to play is to mix up your laser and dash dance game. Make it hard for him to go in at you and be ready to counter attack when he does commit. This is all so that you can get hits and avoid getting hit. If you notice that he likes to do something whenever you enter a certain distance between you and him then you can keep dding weaving around that range and wait for him to do it and then you can use that opportunity. You said he liked to rush at you with a sh nair, at what distance between you and him does he start it? How can you position yourself to hit him before or after his nair comes out? It's true that you can't beat marth's aerials outright if his angle of attack is good but as long as the hitbox ends (when the actual attack part of his nair ends) any one of your attacks can hit him without resistance. If you manage to space yourself facing away from him and sh while he is nairing and his nair ends below you, then your back air will hit him.

Lasering is really vulnerable, if you tend to get hit as you're getting your laser out I'd recommend you thinking about what conditions were met when you did that laser. Was it after you entered a certain distance away from your opponent? How was it predictable? Mixing up dash dance makes it hard for your opponent to know when you're going to laser and they'll be more hesitant and might commit to more pre emptive actions that you might be able to punish.

But you don't have to/shouldn't establish or commit to a dash dance game before anything happens though. Sometimes going with the first option might be best if you see a guaranteed opportunity.

A great way to improve is to record playing against him. Play a set, go over it, he can talk about how he's hitting you or what he's looking for. Also think for yourself, every time you get hit, ask yourself why you got hit.

Just my thoughts. If you try this and see that it works then question why it really does.

Thanks for the response SUNG, I apologize if this comes out as defensive (not meant to be), but I'm not exactly a newer player, I just recently started using smashboards to my adv and getting rid of my scrubby play.
When I say scrubby play I mean not being able to imrpove on my own gameplay (rather than reflect on what happened and take advice, I get defensive and just go balls ---> wall). I think it may have to do with my maturing, but whatever it is I'm very capable of adapting to opponents play. That being said, I should mention one thing. When I read bones0's response, I immediately called up my bro and told him lets play again (we played after a few dota matches). I saw that block-grabbing worked meh when I didn't move, but when he said to step forward and screw up his spacing (which it certainly did) I was able to get a grab-uthrow into some nice %. This went on a few times before he changed his approach. That being said, during the game I had to figure out another way to beat what he was starting to ***** (as I kept getting licked by it). I had to re-think my plan for ass-kickery. Eventually I just thought of one thing. Bother. I was pretty much following him every where he went and I spaced myself in such a way where I could dair, bair or nair him without any sort of worry. That's not to say I didn't get hit a few times, which i did, but my point is that I rushed him down and when he put up his shield is when I was strongest, (which was my plan, as he went into more of a defense shield oos options type thing). All this to say that I pretty much used the same questions you stated above, but during the game / after end of match. I still thank you for the reply though :D

 

[Monib]

Ugh, don't know why editing isn't working when I do a quote. Anywho, a few things I wanted to add / correct up there. I definitely used DD more in such a way where I could bait out a ftilt or something like that. I also realized that I could always back out of a chain I was doing if I felt like it was a) leading nowhere or b) gonna get me killed / hit. I also improved my laser game (I did it at the distance he loved, where he could sh and ftilt me before the laser came out) so I kept that distance in mind and was always aware of it (sometimes I'd fake a sh into a wl and bait him into my trap).

Corrections I wanted to make to the above response : Too many damn uses of That being said :| also a few words, but whatevz you get what I meant
Grateful for the response, as it is people like you who help me become better (I seriously feel like I'm making a pretty damn good improvement from my first post, even if I WAS losing to nair spamming). But I took a lot of it into consideration before your post.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

damn thats deep lol

this game is so broken for fox and falco, shine comes out on 1 frame, and shine grab beats everything i think?
and if you arial properly on shield and shine you beat their roll, shine upb what ever, so hitconfirm (whatever that means) for falco is hella good you can follow up with the flutterhush or maybe get a nair reacting to their di. and then the stage is yours again
and thats why i think marths the best character in the game tho rofl

 

[SUNG666]

You can buffer a spotdodge or roll between the shine and the grab (hold shield and hold C stick in a direction, left/right = roll, down = spotdodge, up = jump)

Monib, I made the assumption that you were a newer player after reading your posts about how to get out of up tilt loop and also how after you tech roll/get up/etc you have frames of vulnerability at the end before you can start to do anything (even shield). I probably should have said a newer player in the competitive scene or nothing at all.

No one should be embarrassed about losing to something when they haven't thought about how to beat it. Sometimes, if you don't know certain options in the game, it becomes really difficult to beat something (for instance... let's say against newer sheik players you can just dair shine pressure them constantly, but when you play against a better sheik and you get naired oos all the time you just lose and wonder why when you could double shine and stuff it completely). Questions are good, I don't want to stop you from asking them even if they might be basic.

2nd hit of fair on shield is -7 (exactly enough for the shield grab). But I still wouldn't do it unless their shield was a lot smaller because they could angle their shield up, block the first hit of fair, and then mash A for shield grab while holding down then they'll CC the 2nd hit and grab you way before you'll be able to shine.

 

[Monib]

You can buffer a spotdodge or roll between the shine and the grab (hold shield and hold C stick in a direction, left/right = roll, down = spotdodge, up = jump)

Monib, I made the assumption that you were a newer player after reading your posts about how to get out of up tilt loop and also how after you tech roll/get up/etc you have frames of vulnerability at the end before you can start to do anything (even shield). I probably should have said a newer player in the competitive scene or nothing at all.

No one should be embarrassed about losing to something when they haven't thought about how to beat it. Sometimes, if you don't know certain options in the game, it becomes really difficult to beat something (for instance... let's say against newer sheik players you can just dair shine pressure them constantly, but when you play against a better sheik and you get naired oos all the time you just lose and wonder why when you could double shine and stuff it completely). Questions are good, I don't want to stop you from asking them even if they might be basic.

2nd hit of fair on shield is -7 (exactly enough for the shield grab). But I still wouldn't do it unless their shield was a lot smaller because they could angle their shield up, block the first hit of fair, and then mash A for shield grab while holding down then they'll CC the 2nd hit and grab you way before you'll be able to shine.

You pretty much nailed it with that response . You're right though, I am new to the comp. scene and I really didn't know a lot of options with falco. Sure the combos I could hit pretty damn consistently but spacies / footsies....*fart* I was trash.
Slowly improving on it though! (Y)
Oh yeah and on the note of hitting a shield, if I cross em up (lets say, with a bair) can it go through a full shield (like one that covers the body) or does it not matter which direction he's facing?

 

[Bones0]

2nd hit of fair on shield is -7 (exactly enough for the shield grab). But I still wouldn't do it unless their shield was a lot smaller because they could angle their shield up, block the first hit of fair, and then mash A for shield grab while holding down then they'll CC the 2nd hit and grab you way before you'll be able to shine.

Thanks. I guess I'll just restrict fair usage to the backs of peoples' shields then.