PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Rocketpowerchill]

speaking of ledge hop lasers, doing a higher quicker jump from the ledge is bad, i used to get tippered alot just doing my same habits over and over again. what are the best ways to get up from the ledge
and is there a ledge dash with falco that i will keep my invinciblity enough so i can jab/grab whatever? i know you can with doc

 

[Mogwai]

y'all ready for evo?!

been taking them mental notes on ic's vs falco..

mogwai is in my pool!

Aight, see you in winner's finals (L ain't no thang, I got this).

 

[Xyzz]

speaking of ledge hop lasers, doing a higher quicker jump from the ledge is bad, i used to get tippered alot just doing my same habits over and over again. what are the best ways to get up from the ledge
and is there a ledge dash with falco that i will keep my invinciblity enough so i can jab/grab whatever? i know you can with doc

A perfectly executed ledge dash with Falco leaves you with a double digit number (I want to say 14, but can't quite recall it) of frames where you are invincible. So yeah, that's probably one of the best things you can do. I wouldn't recommend to jab them, but shield / roll / shine / grab / ftilt (and some other, more situational things) are all fairly good options after the LD.
Aerials from the ledge have their merit, but you need to be careful not to fall for wd back > fsmash shenanigans.
Wavelands from side plats are cool as well. Punishable and everything but they really leave you in a great position when they work out (wavelanding away from the stage > rejump > phantasm cancel on the top plat is really fun on Yoshis :D).
If they are totally accustomed to you doing fancy stuff like that all the time, and you're below 100% damage the normal ledge getup is pretty cool as well (rather fast, and the place you end up in is not really one they can cover to well, because they need to respect you coming up with a ledge dash / whatever).
LHDL is also perfectly alright, just not as a "grab ledge, turn off brain, auto LHDL" - way to handle things.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

lol auto ledge lasers is definitely mango sandbagging
and i need to work on that hax ledge dash since its so powerful

 

[mayhem]

Hi! I faced Android in a tournament roughly a month ago. I was a bit overwhelmed by his aggressive playstyle because all of the sheiks in Finland play very defensive. So feel free to comment and I would appricitiate any tips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpOuMvFJ1_A (only first game is with falco, feel free to comment other chars aswell if you want )

 

[Bones0]

lol auto ledge lasers is definitely mango sandbagging
and i need to work on that hax ledge dash since its so powerful

Falco can't really utilize reverse ledgedashes.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

Falco can't really utilize reverse ledgedashes.

i mean not the reverse ones hax does, he does his regular ledge dash silly far, i think everyone shud get better at it since i get fsmash jank **** all the time cuz i messed it up lol
hax is pretty frame perfect so its hard to

 

[noobird]

Really sad for dr.pp after his convincing win over armada; felt like he wasn't getting as much off his shines as usual, especially vs mango .

 

[BTmoney]

Yeah it's a shame because I know he could have played better (and it looked like he knew that too)

He didn't seem to have that flawless execution and punish game that he had versus Armada. That being said I know PPs happy to have beaten Armada (did you see his tweet lol). I bet it's really satisfying when you're the type of player who wants to focus on playing as perfectly as you can and always exert as much control as possible. I imagine finally being able to play almost perfectly, achieve something you always knew you could have, and to see all the things you conceptualized come to fruition would be extremely satisfying. His spacing was phenomenal! vs Armada! Everything was on point!

 

[Bones0]

PP's vs. Peach is nothing short of inspirational. I think he just needs to rethink his approach to the Fox matchup a bit. Sometimes the character you have the most practice with can give you the most trouble if the opponent has a style different from that of your training partner (in this case, Twitch's Fox). That's just my sense off the top of my head. Maybe he knows more detailed reasons he is losing to Mango's Fox. As far as ICs go, that matchup is just ridiculous. I definitely wish I could sit down with an IC player for a few hours and try to figure it out. I definitely think it's one of the least fleshed out matchups Falco has.

 

[Deleted member]

As far as ICs go, that matchup is just ridiculous. I definitely wish I could sit down with an IC player for a few hours and try to figure it out. I definitely think it's one of the least fleshed out matchups Falco has.

My exact text conversation with Dr. Peepee from Saturday:

Max [3:30] Dude I bet chi that you were gonna get 17th lol. I think I lost the bet. Glad your hard work paid off dude.
Kevin [3:32] Lmao well I'm not done yet but hey thanks
Max [5:39] Ok i'm working so I can't watch the stream. Did you win yet? Did you play anyone after hax?
Kevin [5:44] I'm in winners semis and no one after hax done for the day
Max [5:48] Hax played ****ing beautiful against you considering how gay that match is. Do you know who you have first for tomorrow?
Kevin [5:51] I also was dumb =(
Kevin [5:51] I have wobbles
Max [5:53] All of the foxes are out basically so you have a really good chance to play both hbox and wobbles. Got a plan?
Kevin [6:35] Well I am def playin wobbles lol. And wobbles not much of a plan yet but Hbox patience and nairs lol like always
Max [6:41] I think you should come up with a plan for wobbles on fountain, you basically have to autoban final and fountain is his first pick every time.
Kevin [6:57] Right yeah that's fair. I think ill play slowly so I don't get caught slippin on the low plats. Not sure how to kill nana fast so I guess nair her a ton
Max [7:12] I'd say only do aerials if they're already separated, the double shield is like the low platform where you let the climbers get sketchy conversions into deathgrabs. Slow play is imo the right answer but it might be better to just move around and wait for him to jump after you so you can fish for low risk ways to separate them. I don't have the answers, I just want you to think about it so you have a plan.
Kevin [7:31] I would like to aerial once he's shielding he can't deal with it but otherwise slow play and well timed lasers is good. I don't want to fall into him he can shift too quickly. Forcing horizontal play is my best thing anyway.
Max [7:41] I remember watching you play wobbles at apex and the set was really slow and awkward but at least you didn't get caught by any surprises. Anyway congrats on outplacing crush. I'll be watching you tomorrow.Good luck, not that you need it.
Kevin [9:05] Thanks ill focus up and talk more about it later probly

Now go watch his match vs Wobbles and let's talk about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1db9ZCqsqY

Yes Kevin that includes you.

 

[knightpraetor]

i didn't notice till now that pp's last stock was lost cause he light shielded after a laser..i'm guessing he thought he didn't have time to do anything but shield popo's fair cause he was desynched (though he did have time actually). Too hard to perfectly judge every desynch, even for pros

i felt like pp was too aggro with aerial approaches, but actually I think he got about as much off of them as he lost. if he'd played a little safer around CC I think he would have been fine.

edit: i only now realized just how ridiculously well wobbles played. some of the desynchs he used to land his grabs were quite impressive.

 

[Bones0]

Well first thing's first, I don't think it's even possible to do FF aerials into shine on ICs shield. I think ICs double shields make it take too long to reach the ground in time to shine before Popo can get a grab out if you did the aerial before the peak of your jump. The only type of aerials that seem safe are super late ones on their shield, ones spaced horizontally out of their grab range (which isn't even hard), and ones spaced vertically out of their grab range (FHing aerials to plats primarily).

There's also the option to cross ICs up, but this honestly seems really difficult no matter how you are spaced. They slide so far, especially if they are light shielding, that even an overshot aerial won't cross them up. Perhaps SHing past them and aerialing only after you've crossed them up can help to prevent the sliding from being an issue, but I don't see the use in crossing up in the first place. The only benefit of crossing up is you won't get grabbed, but when that threat is easily outspaced in the first place and the alternative threats are bairs OoS and a quicker WD dsmash, I'm inclined to fight them from the front. PP did get one FH cross up bair at the beginning that seemed okay, but it also seems like catching onto that thing would result in some pretty nasty bairs for ICs.

The core problem PP seemed to have (and one I have often as well) is that no matter how safe you play, you can't get an actual hit. There's a lot of scary aerials on shields and attempts to get dip down shines from plats, but they all just get shielded and all of their counterattacks are so much scarier than any hit you might land 1/10 times. The last stock is just painful to watch because all PP had to do was edgehog Nana after utilting Popo. There also seemed to be a lot of instances where PP was way too close to Wobbles off of spawn for no real reason. ICs aren't fast enough to abuse their invincibility, especially on Falco who can FH away as soon as they come down to cut off bottom mid, so getting killed like that is a waste (4:08, 6:55, and almost 2:03). At low percents, I don't think hitting Nana is ever a safe decision. ICs seem to love baiting Nana at lower percents where they won't lose her as a result (6:18).

Striking to FoD seems weird. Even being the FoD junkie I am, I would prefer DL, BF, then YS in that order. DL and BF obviously just have great plats to abuse, and even though YS is small, you can kill Nana (and Popo ofc) ridiculously early with shines off the top or aerials/smashes off the side. The only benefit I see of having FoD over YS is that the top plat is higher, but they're able to FH uair on either stage, so what does the extra height really do for you? If anything, it only makes approaches from the top more telegraphed and prevents you dipping down as far with shines while still being able to DJ WL back to the top plat.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If I Dair with while they are shielding, then can they do an aerial OoS before I could input a shine?

Learning more about Melee.

 

[BTmoney]

If I Dair with while they are shielding, then can they do an aerial OoS before I could input a shine?

Learning more about Melee.

depends how/when you fast fall and how high or low on shield you are. But if you do it "right" no they can't

(that's the short answer)

 

[Xyzz]

No they can't. Perfectly executed they have two actionable frames while you're still in l cancel lag and can't input the shine yet. Therefore anything that's not happening on frame 2 (or invincible on frame three) will lose to shine.
So the only things that can squeeze between are some up b moves with invincibility on their start up (e.g. Samus / Bowser). Again, that is assuming perfect execution and no staleness on the dair.

In case you're curious: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/scotus-frame-data-q-a-request-thread.112627/ has tons of shield pressure data.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Depends on what aerial, but usually no, especially not if you time your Dair in such a way that it hits when you almost land on the ground, AKA a late dair. I'm pretty sure a late dair always guarantees a shine to hit him or his shield.


About PP vs Wobbles, I think PP underestimated just how creative Wobbles is with his ability on how to get a grab and especially how even a grab with just popo can result in wobbling, like his 2nd stock on Fountain, where he tried to Dsmash kill Nana, he got greedy and paid for it.
And took too much % while trying to kill sopo early on.

I'd also like to point out 6:20 in PP vs wobbles. I'm not sure if Wobbles did the dash attack with Nana on purpose just to bait Peepee, but if he did, that was extremely good. He got baited into punishing Nana while still being vulnerable himself, and that's absolutely never worth it. Unless you can kill her, there's no reason to go for Nana while Popo is still able to get at you.

It is tempting though.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Thanks peepz. Why is waveshining useful with ? Does it help him combo at all or is it for mere positioning?

 

[Dr Peepee]

salt

yeah I should flesh out ICs better. I think I'll do a write-up on the video right now actually as I watch it.

 

[Xyzz]

The time people are unable to act after being hit by a shine is ridiculous, so you have all the time in the world to wave dash out and then react to their DI and follow up with something useful.
Just trying to follow them with an immediate jump rarely results in anything against people with good DI.

 

[noobird]

Thanks peepz. Why is waveshining useful with ? Does it help him combo at all or is it for mere positioning?

Well you can't really continue combos if the opponent actually DI's your shine unless you waveshine so yeah comboing. I mean you should also be wavedashing (or wavelanding) out of shine a lot of the time (unless you're shield pressuring, hitconfirm the shine near the edge and they DI poorly giving you a free dair, etc. you can figure out the other situations =P).

@pp: would you also be willing to talk about your match vs mango? in particular, i'm wondering whether you not getting much off of your shines was due to nerves or something he was doing. also, why did you opt for so many grabs?

I really hope you start dominating tourneys because you've really shown a devotion to this game few other players can match <3

 

[Bones0]

I'd also like to point out 6:20 in PP vs wobbles. I'm not sure if Wobbles did the dash attack with Nana on purpose just to bait Peepee, but if he did, that was extremely good. He got baited into punishing Nana while still being vulnerable himself, and that's absolutely never worth it. Unless you can kill her, there's no reason to go for Nana while Popo is still able to get at you.

It is tempting though.

I'm pretty sure Wobbles tried to dash attack but Popo got hit by the laser (meaning Nana didn't, and therefore went through with the DA). Then he saw PP attack Nana and was still thinking about using DA so he just did it again. I'd be surprised if his thought process was much different than that.

I disagree with your last statement though. As long as you can kill Nana, it usually seems worth it to get rid of her and take the Sopo punish. I will shine Nana off the top all day even if it means getting hit by a stray Popo uair on my way back down. Stuff like smash attacking Nana to her death by the ledge when you're going to get fsmashed or dsmashed by Popo is obviously a bit different, but still worth it as long as you won't definitely die. Even if you will definitely die, a stock lead can make it worth it to me. If I'm up 2 to 1 and can get rid of Nana by SDing, I'm inclined to take that deal much like a Jiggs resting with a 3-2 lead even if she knows she'll get KOed or punished hard off of respawn (resulting in a 2-1 lead).

Oh, whoops, just realized you said "unless you can kill her." I agree.

 

[Dr Peepee]

0:24- planned too far ahead(or was lazy?) for some reason and shined. this puts me above ICs even though he had to put himself in lag and desync to get off of a platform at the very start. I missed an opportunity, but I also didn't know I had it. I should remember that ICs could be desync'd easier getting off of a platform.

--also got lucky with that Dair. I should have just landed on a platform and/or been okay taking small damage instead of potentially landing into a grab.

0:28- classic over-DD. I was afraid or not thinking or both. I should have instead pressed my advantage when I got him and put him into shield with a spaced aerial on dash forward. he couldn't use a fast forward option and I just seemed to forget that.

0:29- terrible jab. I should have just WD'd back or FH'd away since I whiffed laggy Dtilt.

0:30- then I keep trying to laser in really hard? I'm not sure why I'm not incrementally controlling stage here. Had I waited and lasered in place a bit more in either of these situations he would have run into me and I could have shine comboed or at least pressured.

0:33- risky risky plays into dash away and over-DD. I should have just gotten control like I finally did and then just gotten closer and spaced Dair/Fsmash on em.

0:35- spaced a Dair just in time for wobbles to set up his perfect desync trap on me. If I had continued to pressure or just waited after Dair'ing I could have reacted to the Fair instead of running away like I should have since that's all he could have done besides roll.

0:37- ran in without lasering and too deep=stupid. should have set up lasers and gotten closer first.

I'd just like to take this moment to say this is not what I recommend anyone to do to play this matchup LOL. I should have been lasering and getting close then spacing and reacting. Instead I lasered from too far away and then overaggro'd into freak out because it didn't work and I could be grabbed or smashed. I'll do this for the rest of stock 1 but I'm not seeing much difference here. Solidly outplayed I def deserved to lose.

0:43- Should have Dair'd but am too worried about being grabbed. ICs are short so I shouldn't have Bair'd. I could have even grabbed there I bet.

0:48- moved in too hard without really tricking him and was too far away.

0:51- lasering forward hard isn't a good idea unless a very good read is had or a less mobile laser is first established. looked like desperation to establish pressure and break momentum.

0:57- just nair or even dsmash if unsure. lol.

yeah I can't do this anymore. I did learn my lesson though.

I don't know when I'll ever play an ICs again, but if I do and have a chance to record it I will to show you guys something better since I haven't shown a good match vs them online ever iirc. =p

 

[Dr Peepee]

Mango was more of the same iirc, but I kept grabbing because he kept, well, shielding lol. Same reason Axe did it if you watch him fight Mango. Mango just KEEPS running in and shielding lmao.

I'll do that one now because why not.

 

[Deleted member]

wtf is that avatar LOL

 

[Dr Peepee]

0:31- LOL. Think I was a bit surprised I read him iirc. He does like doing that though. Should have SH forward then Dair'd.

0:35- mango likes doing spotdodge on me in particular because I like some direct things for pressure probably. Guess I should have shine grabbed.

0:38- should've ftilt'd or at least held down lol. I knew he wanted out. ah well.

0:44- wtf. Should have grabbed or just lasered into grab/shine/pressure.

0:55- should have jump shined not sure why I risked the uptilt....

0:57- should have held shield or shield DI'd away at least. mango was still fighting for pressure and wasn't ready to grab.

1:02- wow what were those decisions. roll in immediately without waiting, nair off the platform(possibly a bait but i'm not giving myself any credit for this match LOL,) and then sh bair? should have just shielded or ducked or utilted if I thought he would come in. bair is most safe though so not the worst of all 3 decisions there. that dash attack afterward though....ew. Should have just lasered or maybe even grabbed.

1:04- he got me but I should be ready to move vs fox often. when I see shield I should WD or FH most likely.

1:10- reading that roll since forever. I should have FH'd instead.

1:21- grabbed far too late and fox is fast, and then jab was bad since he couldn't attack me since I was invincible. Should have just lasered or dashed into him for grab or pressure.

1:22- came in with no laser and no delayed aerial so I deserved to be grabbed. overaggression.

1:24- Same roll as the one I died for. No thought when cornered and still not willing to play incrementally and work slower lasers and control the opponent.

1:27- people have been getting that roll on me for years(even at pound 5) and I don't know why it works. Am I just not FF'ing or pushing shine too late?

1:29- Still not willing to bait Mango into attacking me and wanting to hit him. Logical things happen. Should have lasered or played slower and fished to see if he wanted to attack with dashes into him into observe or FH away if I felt pressured.

Eh then I kinda get away with stuff anyway and it looks bad. Does anyone want me to keep doing this because it all looks like the same thing to me:

-stop overaggroing

-laser incrementally

-FH more/pick different options when cornered or under pressure




edit: max dude I'm

LIKE A ROCK

 

[noobird]

^the thinker? lol =P

and couldn't you have opted for a mix-up like double shine pressure instead of grab? getting a shine > grab no? (unlike falco, pika gets guaranteed followups from grab)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I mean I can but shine grab is fine in that I can get pseudo-followups that include shine or Dair sometimes and it also discourages shielding since I maintain control of the match and mixup advantage. It's an eventual punish.

Forgoing shines sometimes leads to many shines later, and grabbing when it works leads to momentum which leads to shines. Not a big deal imo.

 

[Jim Morrison]

1:27- people have been getting that roll on me for years(even at pound 5) and I don't know why it works. Am I just not FF'ing or pushing shine too late?

I think you're doing the weak N-air and even then, it's too early. You can very often roll inbetween shield pressure if aerials aren't delayed to the max.
If they C-stick buffer the roll, you rarely hit them.

 

[noobird]

^Wait what? Mango rolled between the shine and the rising nair; if anything, his nair isn't early enough.

 

[Jim Morrison]

There were 2 instances in a row, at 1:26 he rolled out of shine > N-air, at 1:27 he rolled out of N-air > Shine (PP tried shinegrab)

I think you're able to roll out after shine on shield even if the nair is as early as possible.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I guess it's tech or the move is too early.

Gotta test this.

 

[noobird]

There were 2 instances in a row, at 1:26 he rolled out of shine > N-air, at 1:27 he rolled out of N-air > Shine (PP tried shinegrab)

I think you're able to roll out after shine on shield even if the nair is as early as possible.

oh i see - sorry about that.

@pp: buffered roll beats every shield pressure option if shine is staled; I don't know that it's always safe though (in the sense that you can't chase the roll)

 

[Seagull Joe]

in melee is fun. I bet I could be okish at melee if I practiced.

Kevin, I want a rematch MM in vs next time I see you. I beat Kadaj/Neo everytime, but lost to you...Kevin>Craig/Neo confirmed.

There were 2 instances in a row, at 1:26 he rolled out of shine > N-air, at 1:27 he rolled out of N-air > Shine (PP tried shinegrab)

I think you're able to roll out after shine on shield even if the nair is as early as possible.

Can you shieldgrab while in shine?

 

[Dr Peepee]

shhhh seagull people don't need to know that LMAO my low profile

(but aight let's battle)

 

[Bones0]

Can you shieldgrab while in shine?

No, but you can jump cancel the shine and grab during the jumpsquat frames, hence a shinegrab.

 

[michael_li]

I'll share a secret with you guys.

When you have rumble on and someone is pressuring your shield it will rumble. You can wait for the rumble to stop then do something out of shield .

When your under crazy pressure buffer a roll by holding the shield button and C-Stick the direction that you want to roll and the game will roll on the first frame it can.

Use spotdodge, it *****.

Want to do fast nair out of shield? Buffer it by holding your shield button and C-Stick upwards and when you jump out press Z.

 

[Bones0]

I give up.

 

[knightpraetor]

YESSS... INVADE THE FALCO BOARDS MY CHILDREN...LET BONES KNOW MY PAIN...

 

[Xyzz]

I give up.

I think we should start a petition to be allowed to resort to physical violence at this point.