PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[BTmoney]

lets say a fox is drill shining on my shield, if i buffer roll or jump, do i get shined, is there timing, i dont understand

You have to input the c-stick direction while you're in shield stun to do it perfectly. But since people don't shield pressure frame perfect you actually gain a few frames yourself to buffer something out (i.e. even if you input your roll 1 or 2 frames late you'll be fine most of the time vs. extended shield pressure in practice) to get out of it. Even though you're not "buffering" it technically if you do it late but you get me?

Actually, while arguing about frame data in some Westballz thread I learned you can actually buffer a roll out of every single pressure string OTHER than a fresh Fox double shine (so you can roll before the 3rd shine of a tripple shine or the 4th etc. you can roll as long as the shine isn't fresh [and it's basically never going to be fresh] AND it's not the second shine. My point is you can pretty much always roll unless Fox just died and he double shines your shield starting with a fresh shine.). IIRC literally everything else as far as space animal shield pressure goes is subject to being checked with buffered role or spot doge as long as you do it while you're in shield stun.

I'm not sure if you can buffer a roll out of a frame perfect Fox or Falco shine->grab (it matters since Fox's shine has less stun but he jumps faster and Falco's shine has more stun and he jumps slower) but I am pretty sure you can.

Look at where the gaps are though (this isn't entirely "correct" or at least it's not all encompassing but what it says is true/right for its purpose):

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/shield-pressure-frame-data.278616/

In a nutshell, your fastest option (rolling which is invincible on the 4th frame, or a spot doge which is faster but keeps you in place) is generally faster than their tightest option (a late nair followed by a shine or etc.). You can also more easily do your option frame perfect more than they can. This increasingly becomes in your favor since basically everything they hit your shield with is stale (so they lose a frame or two of shield stun while their lag stays the same from landing or jumping or whatever) so you get slightly bigger windows.

edit:

And jumping OOS can be good too, depends though. I'll have to think about that and ask around though to figure out how much you can move your hurtbox per frame and things like that.

Also I mess around with buffering a jump OOS with the c-stick for a shine OOS with Fox. But I usually use the control stick since I practiced double shining that way. I will say that it's a better motion to move the c-stick up and push B (and hold down) to shine. You barely have to move your thumb from the top of the c-stick to B (With Falco I use Y sometimes since his is easy). That's probably the best way to do consistent grounded shines OOS, with Fox at least. But I get by just using up on the control stick to shine OOS. I buffer everything else though.

 

[Bones0]

Buffering for shine OoS doesn't help. I explained why multiple times on the last page or so...

Using tap jump buffers for 3 frames, so it has the same issue as regular buffering but not as severe. Y is the way to go.

As far as what cannot be escaped by rolls (invincible frame 4), these are the ones I know about for sure:
FOX
- Late bair shine
- Multishine

FALCO
- Late bair shine
- Late dair shine
- Multishine

You can buffer rolls out of either character's fresh, frame perfect shine grab, Fox's drill shine, shine upsmash, and basically every other option I didn't list. I may go through all of Falco's pressure strings and put them in the hitboxes and frame data thread so people can stop asking what works and what doesn't.

Source

 

[BTmoney]

You CAN roll out of either character's multishine. The only time you can't is when Fox had a fresh first shine. Also because of the way the jump mechanics work the first two shines are 1 (or 2) frame closer to each other than the 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th etc. You can roll out of multishines. Additionally once shine stales you can roll out of Fox's double shine.

I don't know how freshness affects Falco but you can also roll out of his stale multishines.

I know this since I've been corrected thoroughly about this

Edit:
Bones if you were to do that you'd have to account for staleness and possibly expand on Fox's guide since that lacks some information.

Also we know you explained yourself before. I just don't agree. How fast your OOS option comes out is reliant to how fast you initialize it by inputing your jump. A buffered jump out of shield stun is better than reacting late to your shield stun ending and then pushing jump and losing frames. It doesn't make you "shine" faster. It just makes the the sequence come out faster and end sooner since chances are you're not jumping oos from shield stun frame perfectly.

 

[Xyzz]

There isn't anything to agree / disagree. Just start applying logic to that thought process already agrhagraghraghrarghhhh :x

edit: sorry, this looks harsher than I intended it to. It's just that this whole matter really isn't something that holds much relevance for improving ones play, nor is there any point in discussing this, because it's a simple fact.
Again: You could be more perfect with a nonbuffered -> buffered type of chain, but the one you guys keep suggesting just makes no sense, and I just can't manage to imagine how you manage to arrive at that conclusion after giving the matter some thought.

 

[noobird]

Don't buffer if you want to grounded shine oos lol. If you don't care then buffer. Also buffer roll gets you out of all shield pressure but will get you butthurt in the long run.

 

[Kadano]

In my opinion, the best thing to do against all kinds of shield pressure is shield SDI away. If you time it right (smash during hitlag (4 frame window), keep pressed away for SASDI), double shine connects only if your opponent is very close to you before he shines—closer than this:

The main problem about using SSDI to escape shield pressure is that it can hardly be done on reaction. If Fox nairs your shield, your reaction (on the first frame of his nair) time must be 8 frames or less, which is possible but unlikely. So you have to guess when the next attack will hit your shield.
Giving up space is not too bad, I think—even when you’re standing next to the ledge, falling off will make you grab it before your opponent could do anything to you.

 

[BTmoney]

@Kadano is 1 SDI input sufficient?

 

[Bones0]

You CAN roll out of either character's multishine. The only time you can't is when Fox had a fresh first shine. Also because of the way the jump mechanics work the first two shines are 1 (or 2) frame closer to each other than the 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th etc. You can roll out of multishines. Additionally once shine stales you can roll out of Fox's double shine.

I don't know how freshness affects Falco but you can also roll out of his stale multishines.

I know this since I've been corrected thoroughly about this

Edit:
Bones if you were to do that you'd have to account for staleness and possibly expand on Fox's guide since that lacks some information.

If you believe you can roll out of multishines, can you edit these to reflect how it really works?

FOX
1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8
9
10 Airborne, Shine, Hitlag
11 Hitlag
12 Hitlag
13 Hitlag
14
15
16 Land, Start Jump
17
18
19 Airborne, Shine

FALCO
1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne, Shine, Hitlag
14 Hitlag
15 Hitlag
16 Hitlag
17 Hitlag
18
19
20 Start Jump
21
22
23
24
25 Airborne, Shine, Hitlag

Accounting for staleness shouldn't be too hard. I'm not going to do Fox's though. That's twice the work for a character I barely even play anymore.

Also we know you explained yourself before. I just don't agree. How fast your OOS option comes out is reliant to how fast you initialize it by inputing your jump. A buffered jump out of shield stun is better than reacting late to your shield stun ending and then pushing jump and losing frames. It doesn't make you "shine" faster. It just makes the the sequence come out faster and end sooner since chances are you're not jumping oos from shield stun frame perfectly.

How fast your OoS option comes out is completely dependent on when you input the attack, not the jump. You can buffer a jump all you want, but the timing of your attack is still based on your sense of when shield stun will end. If you want to FH OoS as fast as possible, by all means buffer it. I do that myself. But if you are trying to attack immediately OoS, buffering simply leaves you exposed out of your shield for a few frames before you input the attack. You can't buffer the attack along with the jump, so the attack must be timed manually. If the attack must be timed manually, then there's no way that buffering the jump or not would have any effect on when you input the attack.

Reading your last two sentences are completely contradictory. If buffering the jump doesn't make you shine faster (which you say), then why would you want to buffer the jump? So you can get OoS faster and... get hit? The "sequence" (being the 5 jumpsquat frames + shine) definitely starts sooner if you buffer the jump, but it doesn't reach the shine part of the sequence any sooner, so it's not only pointless, but detrimental. I realize that I am not jumping OoS from stun frame perfectly when I shine OoS. I am also not shining frame perfectly. If you buffer your jump you will surely jump frame perfectly, but you won't shine any earlier because you can't react to jumpsquat, so why on Earth would you want to jump earlier if there's no benefit? If you had some reason to want to shine as high as possible OoS, then I think buffering would be a great way of maximizing how high you are, but otherwise, it's a horrible idea.

In my opinion, the best thing to do against all kinds of shield pressure is shield SDI away. If you time it right (smash during hitlag (4 frame window), keep pressed away for SASDI), double shine connects only if your opponent is very close to you before he shines—closer than this:

The main problem about using SSDI to escape shield pressure is that it can hardly be done on reaction. If Fox nairs your shield, your reaction (on the first frame of his nair) time must be 8 frames or less, which is possible but unlikely. So you have to guess when the next attack will hit your shield.
Giving up space is not too bad, I think—even when you’re standing next to the ledge, falling off will make you grab it before your opponent could do anything to you.

SSDIing isn't as hard to do as you might think. Most SHFFLs are pretty telegraphed, so you can pretty much assume an airborne spacie on top of you is going to aerial 90% of the time, and that means you can SSDI the aerial itself and hopefully avoid the shine all together, which makes it that much easier when you want to shield grab after shine because you don't have any new shield stun from it.

As far as spacing goes, it's worth noting that you can move slightly towards the opponent by angling the stick. I basically do it out of habit at this point because I'm usually double shining from a dash SHFFL in their direction anyway.

 

[Xyzz]

Also: Isn't SSDIing kind of a option select in the case of furry on top of you (that sounds pretty perverted, haha) anyways? I mean if everything goes as expected, you'll input SSDI as expected, and if they aren't inputting an aerial, they are most certaily going for some empty hop > grab shenanigans, and you'll roll out of that, right?
Reading SSDI and dashing to follow their roll after an empty hop... 2018 metagame :D

 

[BTmoney]

Ill respond in a sec. I'm on my phone and I have to find some old posts.

 

[Kadano]

@ Kadano is 1 SDI input sufficient?

If you are standing away at least as far as in the pic, yes in most cases. SASDI doesn’t do much compared to a single SSDI.

If you believe you can roll out of multishines, can you edit these to reflect how it really works?

Those lists you copied are wrong. Fox doesn’t land on frame 16 but on frame 17. Also, he can’t jump on that frame as he’d do a mid-air jump that way. Here is the data for multishines:
Fox
1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8 (no shieldstun if staleness mod is <0.9)
9
10 Airborne, Shine, Hitlag
11 Hitlag
12 Hitlag
13 Hitlag
14
15
16
17 Land (no shieldstun if staleness mod is <0.9)
18 Start jump
19
20
21 Airborne, Shine, Hitlag
Repeat from frame 11. Assuming shine isn’t very stale (if stale multiplier¹ is below 0.9, shield stun will last 1 frame less so frames 8 and 17 would be red instead of green)

Falco
1 Shine, hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start jump
9
10 (no shieldstun if staleness mod is <0.85)
11
12
13 Airborne, shine, hitlag
14 Hitlag
15 Hitlag
16 Hitlag
17 Hitlag
18
19
20
21 Land
22 Start jump (no shieldstun if staleness mod is <0.85)
23
24
25
26
27 Airborne, Shine, Hitlag
Repeat from frame 14. Assuming shine isn’t very stale (if stale multiplier¹ is below 0.85, shield stun will last 1 frame less so frames 10 and 22 would be red instead of green. At maximum staleness, hitlag is 4 instead of 5 and shieldstun 3 instead of 5; due to this effectively shortening the list by two entries this is not shown in the list.)


¹There are 9 spots in the staling queue. Whenever you deal damage with an attack, that attack gets written to the first spot and all previous entries shift down by 1. The first spot decreases the damage dealt by subsequent use of that attack by 9%, the second spot by 8% and so on. If all staling spots contain the same attack, the next use of it will only do 55% of unstaled damage.

How fast your OoS option comes out is completely dependent on when you input the attack, not the jump. You can buffer a jump all you want, but the timing of your attack is still based on your sense of when shield stun will end. If you want to FH OoS as fast as possible, by all means buffer it. I do that myself. But if you are trying to attack immediately OoS, buffering simply leaves you exposed out of your shield for a few frames before you input the attack. You can't buffer the attack along with the jump, so the attack must be timed manually. If the attack must be timed manually, then there's no way that buffering the jump or not would have any effect on when you input the attack.

While I agree with you in general, I do think it might be faster to slide from C-Stick up to B than from Y to B, so that might be a real benefit. Still you have to precisely know when shield stun will end or you risk pressing too early or too late—that risk is much smaller when using Y→B.

SSDIing isn't as hard to do as you might think. Most SHFFLs are pretty telegraphed, so you can pretty much assume an airborne spacie on top of you is going to aerial 90% of the time, and that means you can SSDI the aerial itself and hopefully avoid the shine all together, which makes it that much easier when you want to shield grab after shine because you don't have any new shield stun from it.

I don’t think it’s hard, it’s just not possible to do it on reaction during shield pressure so you need to guess and might get baited. I do realise these are very unrealistic, TAS-like scenarios, but I prefer to make overly safe statements/research than to generalize. You never know what future players will come up with.

As far as spacing goes, it's worth noting that you can move slightly towards the opponent by angling the stick. I basically do it out of habit at this point because I'm usually double shining from a dash SHFFL in their direction anyway.

Definitely. If Fox shines, does fsh nair and fastfalls, 1SSDI on both shine and nair will make you space away from another shine, though. So yeah, SSDI is pretty good.

Also: Isn't SSDIing kind of a option select in the case of furry on top of you (that sounds pretty perverted, haha) anyways? I mean if everything goes as expected, you'll input SSDI as expected, and if they aren't inputting an aerial, they are most certaily going for some empty hop > grab shenanigans, and you'll roll out of that, right?

It is, but if you are standing near the ledge, rolling towards it is something you definitely want to avoid.

 

[BTmoney]

Well you just saved me a lot of typing. Only thing left to emphasize is that the first shine is will basically never be fresh but that's understood

=]

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

yea i always thought that extended pressure was a good option since it will clip the other brosef with a shine
and you can react to your opponents response, plus it corners them offstage.

 

[BTmoney]

For as much as people claim to be good at chasing rolls, I don't ever see it. Unless it's like Falcon's roll.

I don't think good reaction time is only exclusive to high level play either. I roll like a madman (when pressured) and tend to get away with it whenever I chose to. But of course there are mix ups to deal with rolling

 

[Vixen]

I go through phases. At Genesis 2, and NYTE + Presently I was covering every option but the roll. At Apex and KoC 1 I was hunting for rolls mostly. Zenith I was mostly punishing retreating attempts.

 

[noobird]

While I agree with you in general, I do think it might be faster to slide from C-Stick up to B than from Y to B, so that might be a real benefit. Still you have to precisely know when shield stun will end or you risk pressing too early or too late—that risk is much smaller when using Y→B.

Wait what?? I'm a little confused here - if you can double shine or anything past that consistently and you choose to use Y to jump OOS then you're shining as soon as possible anyway (relative to when you input the jump)...

 

[Kadano]

Wait what?? I'm a little confused here - if you can double shine or anything past that consistently and you choose to use Y to jump OOS then you're shining as soon as possible anyway (relative to when you input the jump)...

I don’t see being able to double shine consistently as given for the player who wants to escape his opponent’s double shine.

 

[noobird]

I don’t see being able to double shine consistently as given for the player who wants to escape his opponent’s double shine.

I didn't mean it's a given, but if you can double shine then Y to B is as fast as/faster than going from C-stick to B. On a somewhat unrelated note, it's much easier to use the side of your thumb to hit B and the tip for Y rather than "sliding." Anyway, double shining is pretty easy and that's why I mentioned Y to B being faster.

I still advocate using Y to B only if you're going for grounded shine oos though and C-stick for other purposes such as shine b-air, mainly because shine b-air is harder to hit from grounded shine (jumpsquat right?).

 

[Bones0]

Here is the data for multishines...

Thanks, mang. So shielded attacks actually stale? I didn't know that. I thought they had to do damage.

I added that data to the Hitboxes and Frame Data thread for future reference so you can just direct people to that if they ask.

 

[KP17]

@Kadano: if you are ever bored, could you figure out when grounded side b can be used to tech chase and/or combo?

 

[Kadano]

Thanks, mang. So shielded attacks actually stale? I didn't know that. I thought they had to do damage.

You’re right about this, I made a thinking error. The list was still correct, but not the description. It’s fixed now. Thanks!

I added that data to the Hitboxes and Frame Data thread for future reference so you can just direct people to that if they ask.

Great, but please update it again with the new staling note.

 

[Bones0]

You’re right about this, I made a thinking error. The list was still correct, but not the description. It’s fixed now. Thanks!


Great, but please update it again with the new staling note.

Looking at your data, I'm a bit confused. Frames 18 and 19 are the second and third frame of shine. 20 is empty, and 21 is when you land. Does that mean it takes two frames to land even from a shine on your first airborne frame? What happens if you JC on one of those two frames? I didn't think it was possible to DJ after shining on the first airborne frame.

Possibly related question: Does SHing vs. FHing affect Falco's height enough to change how many frames it takes to land from shine on the first airborne frame? I don't understand the game well enough to know how the "in between frames" stuff works. Does the game figure out where you would have been if you didn't shine and then retroactively shine, or does it simply take your current position and change your state to that of a shine?

Does shine always take this long to land on platforms? I shineland on different platforms, and each different height seems to take shorter or longer amounts of time to land (Falco is definitely travelling different distances to land either way). DJing alters your SCDQ so that shinelanding is really easy because Falco's body can be halfway through a plat and you will shineland as your SCDQ changes back to the standing orientation. If you do this so that Falco moves a significant distance upwards or downwards to land immediately, does the shine hitbox come out where you inputted it, or does the game figure out that you are going to land first and put the shine hitbox where Falco does a mini teleport to?

 

[Kadano]

Looking at your data, I'm a bit confused. Frames 18 and 19 are the second and third frame of shine. 20 is empty, and 21 is when you land. Does that mean it takes two frames to land even from a shine on your first airborne frame? What happens if you JC on one of those two frames?

Yes. You do a mid-air jump.

Possibly related question: Does SHing vs. FHing affect Falco's height enough to change how many frames it takes to land from shine on the first airborne frame? I don't understand the game well enough to know how the "in between frames" stuff works. Does the game figure out where you would have been if you didn't shine and then retroactively shine, or does it simply take your current position and change your state to that of a shine?

Shine overrides sh/fh, so there is no position difference between holding the jump button for the entire kneebend animation and holding for less than that. Your SCDQ’s lowest corner also doesn’t lift off the ground when you shine on the first airborne frame. The other three SCDQ corners still take their aerial shine positions instead of grounded shine position. From frame 21 on, they change to the grounded shine ones, implying that Falco lands on that frame. I assume the aerial state flag (if Melee handles it that way) is changed from 0 to 1 after kneebend animation and only reverts back to 0 when the SCDQ’s lowest corner collides with a platform while Δy<0.

Does shine always take this long to land on platforms? I shineland on different platforms, and each different height seems to take shorter or longer amounts of time to land (Falco is definitely travelling different distances to land either way). DJing alters your SCDQ so that shinelanding is really easy because Falco's body can be halfway through a plat and you will shineland as your SCDQ changes back to the standing orientation. If you do this so that Falco moves a significant distance upwards or downwards to land immediately, does the shine hitbox come out where you inputted it, or does the game figure out that you are going to land first and put the shine hitbox where Falco does a mini teleport to?

This always results in invisible shine, which has no frame 1 hitbox at all.
If you wait a few frames longer than for invisible shine so you bring out a frame 1 hitbox, it takes about 6 frames of waiting after reflector comes out until you really land on the platform.

 

[Bones0]

This always results in invisible shine, which has no frame 1 hitbox at all.
If you wait a few frames longer than for invisible shine so you bring out a frame 1 hitbox, it takes about 6 frames of waiting after reflector comes out until you really land on the platform.

By invisible shines, do you mean there is no graphic and Falco turns blue (the one commonly used by running off stage and shining right before the ledge), or do you just mean there is a shine with no hitbox at all? I have definitely thought I hit peoples' shields with shinelands before but ended up missing, and I attributed it to the hitbox being lower than I expected, but if it doesn't appear at all that's crazy. Can any other moves do this, like Marth's counter perhaps (I bring up that because it seems like Marth's counter gives you downward momentum if you use it right as leave the ground comparable to a multishine).

 

[Kadano]

By invisible shines, do you mean there is no graphic and Falco turns blue (the one commonly used by running off stage and shining right before the ledge), or do you just mean there is a shine with no hitbox at all? I have definitely thought I hit peoples' shields with shinelands before but ended up missing, and I attributed it to the hitbox being lower than I expected, but if it doesn't appear at all that's crazy.

Can any other moves do this, like Marth's counter perhaps (I bring up that because it seems like Marth's counter gives you downward momentum if you use it right as leave the ground comparable to a multishine).

Yes, but it doesn’t make a functional difference. Counter reset’s vertical momentum (Δy) and its SCDQ’s lowest corner reaches down a bit more than his second jump’s SCDQ.

 

[Bones0]

Can you insta-land a Phantasm?

 

[Kadano]

Can you insta-land a Phantasm?

Yes, but I don’t see how this could be useful.

 

[Bones0]

Yes, but I don’t see how this could be useful.

Let me worry about that.

I remember reading a long time ago that Phantasm stalling was 1 frame away from being safe. Is this true? What if I shorten the Phantasm to end it sooner? Does the hitbox cover any significant area around the ledge?

Bonus question: Why can Fox grab the ledge during the startup of his side-B while Falco cannot? Does it have anything to do with the 3 extra frames?

I'm a curious guy, so if you decide my questions are not worth your time, I absolutely won't be offended. I would just feel dumb to miss an opportunity to ask someone who can find out.

 

[Kadano]

I remember reading a long time ago that Phantasm stalling was 1 frame away from being safe. Is this true?

No, it is not true. To stay invincible all the way through, you need to let go of the ledge on the first possible frame and then phantasm on the first or second frame (both work) after that.

What if I shorten the Phantasm to end it sooner?

Then you die¹.

Bonus question: Why can Fox grab the ledge during the startup of his side-B while Falco cannot? Does it have anything to do with the 3 extra frames?[/quote]
Both Fox and Falco can grab the ledge as soon as on frame 29 after they let go of it. Because both usual requirements for grabbing the ledge (1. no ledge invincibility and 2. Δy<0) are existent on the early falling frames of Falco’s phantasm, I’m inclined to say that there is a threshold that doesn’t allow ledge regrab before 29 frame after letting go of the ledge.


¹You simply don’t grab the ledge, regardless of when you shortened. Don’t ask me why.

Edit: This has been figured out; you can’t grab the ledge while disabled regrab period is active.

 

[BTmoney]

Fun fact: Ledge hop double laser with Falco is stupidly easy to do with the control stick. I wasted like a month of my time on that lol.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

if you do it good you can ff the second laser

 

[Bones0]

No, it is not true. To stay invincible all the way through, you need to let go of the ledge on the first possible frame and then phantasm on the first or second frame (both work) after that.

Then you die¹.

Bonus question: Why can Fox grab the ledge during the startup of his side-B while Falco cannot? Does it have anything to do with the 3 extra frames?

Both Fox and Falco can grab the ledge as soon as on frame 29 after they let go of it. Because both usual requirements for grabbing the ledge (1. no ledge invincibility and 2. Δy<0) are existent on the early falling frames of Falco’s phantasm, I’m inclined to say that there is a threshold that doesn’t allow ledge regrab before 29 frame after letting go of the ledge.


¹You simply don’t grab the ledge, regardless of when you shortened. Don’t ask me why.[/quote]

What if you DJ before shortening a Phantasm towards the ledge (that's the only way I can do it anyway)? I'm basically wondering if I can use it to spike people riding the wall while being able to edgehog or LH an attack immediately after to cover other options.

Concerning Fox grabbing the ledge faster, I was referring to this (~0:25).

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

lol the slowed down phantasm looks sick and those sound effects are good
any tips on infinite side b ledge stall
i cant seem to do them with falco but can with fox, what is the hand motion

 

[noobird]

use c-stick to drop and then yeah but iirc there was a post not long ago actually explaining how phantasm stall is pretty not useful considering you have to be basically frame perfect to retain invincibility and someone can actually grab the edge while you're doing it and then you're screwed. so firebird stall - it's easier and there's more leeway for keeping invincibility.

 

[FrootLoop]

falco's is like frame perfect not recommended but then again neither characters is recommended.

also if you can fastfall ledgehop double laser you're doing something very wrong

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

na i was pretty sure you can fastfall before you shoot the second laser and still get it off
idk
and zhu makes that phantasm look so easy

 

[noobird]

No if you can fastfall it means your first laser is WAY too high and you're going to get punished hard. The only time that would be useful is if the other person is on a platform and you call them dropping with your first laser but that's an unnecessary risk. Every falco has that knee-jerk reaction to just lhdl whenever they're on the ledge but it's pretty bad.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

No if you can fastfall it means your first laser is WAY too high and you're going to get punished hard. The only time that would be useful is if the other person is on a platform and you call them dropping with your first laser but that's an unnecessary risk. Every falco has that knee-jerk reaction to just lhdl whenever they're on the ledge but it's pretty bad.

well thats what i was saying, you can most definitely shoot a rising laser (high as ****)
and a laser varying form low to on floor
i forgot if it has its uses on a stage like fd, anyone tell me if both can connect if fastfalled, like someone tall like marth

 

[BTmoney]

well thats what i was saying, you can most definitely shoot a rising laser (high as ****)
and a laser varying form low to on floor
i forgot if it has its uses on a stage like fd, anyone tell me if both can connect if fastfalled, like someone tall like marth

Are you saying to do a ledge hop, fast fall, then shoot two lasers?

Or lede hop, shoot a laser, fast fall, shoot another?

 

[noobird]

well thats what i was saying, you can most definitely shoot a rising laser (high as ****)

yes i know that's what you were saying and i think frootloop also knew. there's a reason he said you were doing something "very wrong." it's just bad.

@Ado: he means the latter. you can't fast fall and shoot two lasers