Bones0
Smash Legend
Thanks. Someone else actually already pointed out that I shine uselessly. I will just have to focus on it more next time because I thought I had mostly stopped that.
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Thanks. Someone else actually already pointed out that I shine uselessly. I will just have to focus on it more next time because I thought I had mostly stopped that.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Upload some real matches and I'll critique. There's no point on giving you advice where you don't need it. That guy obviously isn't very experienced, so you don't need help playing against someone that level. It seems like that video would only serve to show your tech skill, which doesn't really matter much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyOXdCpqD7g&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This us the guy who's trained me since 08. Him, me, and silly kyle are the best players here.
Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
This us the guy who's trained me since 08. Him, me, and silly kyle are the best players here.
Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
How exactly do you have problems with peach? I need specific scenarios.
Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
You don't need to tell me how good Jackie is, he used to live in Portland. Considering how good Jackie is, I was impressed with your games. Your Falco seems pretty solid.
Your platform work is pretty good in combos, you could probably benefit from using U-tilt/B-air to poke through platforms when applicable. However, you don't really seem to use the platforms defensively/from neutral. In fact, your neutral game seems to mainly compose of shl and sh nair. Increasing the amount of mixups you do could help you out, because most of the time jackie got in was against you using either of those options. Work some more defensive options, or maybe some defensive platform use in.
Sometimes your pop them up, and then follow up with a shine, even if you can't get a follow up. You should try using more D-air/B-air in those situations. You should also try some more utilts, instead of shines (situations where you don't get anything from shine).
You don't shield very often, and I don't think you ever really punish oos. Because of this, usually if he tries to go for something unsafe, he only gets punished with a laser or positioning, so he can often use stomps and the like without too much fear. You need to make him respect your defense. If you forced him to be more cautious, and have to mix up by going for lower reward moves, you wouldn't get comboed so hard.
I don't know what your U-tilt beats, but it is a pretty good antiair, so it would probably beat some of his sh approaches, which could make him have to commit more. Probably would make it so he couldn't nair as often, under fear of you utilting him. His nair is a really good tool for covering large areas, and converts momentum to combos, so tricking him into using it less would help you out. Even if you traded with a move, would work pretty well. . .
The last game was pretty funny. . .
Again, I'm not a Falco main, and I'm still learning, so I could be wrong, these are just my thoughts.
I miss Jackie.
Your platform work is pretty good in combos, you could probably benefit from using U-tilt/B-air to poke through platforms when applicable. However, you don't really seem to use the platforms defensively/from neutral. In fact, your neutral game seems to mainly compose of shl and sh nair. Increasing the amount of mixups you do could help you out, because most of the time jackie got in was against you using either of those options. Work some more defensive options, or maybe some defensive platform use in.
Sometimes your pop them up, and then follow up with a shine, even if you can't get a follow up. You should try using more D-air/B-air in those situations. You should also try some more utilts, instead of shines (situations where you don't get anything from shine).
You don't shield very often, and I don't think you ever really punish oos. Because of this, usually if he tries to go for something unsafe, he only gets punished with a laser or positioning, so he can often use stomps and the like without too much fear. You need to make him respect your defense. If you forced him to be more cautious, and have to mix up by going for lower reward moves, you wouldn't get comboed so hard.
I don't know what your U-tilt beats, but it is a pretty good antiair, so it would probably beat some of his sh approaches, which could make him have to commit more. Probably would make it so he couldn't nair as often, under fear of you utilting him. His nair is a really good tool for covering large areas, and converts momentum to combos, so tricking him into using it less would help you out. Even if you traded with a move, would work pretty well. . .
The last game was pretty funny. . .
Again, I'm not a Falco main, and I'm still learning, so I could be wrong, these are just my thoughts.
I miss Jackie.
Thanks for the feedback. Jackie used to routinely 3 stock me, but recently I've had a winning record vs him. Won the last two local tournaments against him. :3
I TRY to punish OOS, but I just suck at it. I usually input dair/shine/etc too fast and roll/spot dodge instead of doing what I wanted to do. I don't have a lot of practice attacking out of shield.
I TRY to punish OOS, but I just suck at it. I usually input dair/shine/etc too fast and roll/spot dodge instead of doing what I wanted to do. I don't have a lot of practice attacking out of shield.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
That is strange, haven't heard of that before. . . maybe mess around with another character who uses their shield often and work in some oos practice. Maybe you've never gotten oos punishes, which caused you to not be in practice with them, which caused you to not get them, etc etc (loop). I'd suggest Peach.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I suggest the c-stick. buffering everything oos is so delicious
Bones0
Smash Legend
I don't think punishing Falcon OoS is even that reliable. Knee and stomp have so much stun, nair and uair have so much range, gentleman protects him from most OoS options when he's facing you, and dash away is a threat when he's not.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Some things like shine out of shield -> waveland onto platform are pretty safe oos. Also, he can dash away form shield or gentleman, but if you never do any oos punishes, he will have no reason to do those, and instead will opt for bigger things on your shield. If you can convince Falcon to have to mix in jabs on your shield, or straight up running away from your shield, then you'll be in better shape than just letting him chase your rolls/jumps.
I'm good at OOS options with every character in the game EXCEPT falco. Something about Falco's jumpsquat just makes me derp it up. Falcon I kinda derp the stomp OOS, too, but peach/marth/fox/ganon/puff/etc, no problem.
Actually my Fox shine OOS reactions are kinda amazing. I really like fighting Falco mains with Fox. I have a pretty good record out of state vs Falcos with my Fox.
Bones, you actually can punish Falcon OOS pretty reliable. Delayed Fair/Bair can be problematic. Gentleman is a free grab/punish unless you're pretty high percent. Vs Falcon I like to either A. judge when he does something and buffer c stick short hop > dair (haven't practiced this since november, though. i have some vids in december before apex where I did this a lot vs jackie and okami.) or I like to just spam shield grab, but also hold down, and mash L+A. What this does is if they miss the timing on their aerial, you grab them. If you're below 50%, you CC grab their gentleman. Most Falcons don't go for aerial > dash dance to beat this option, because most people don't go for the spam CC grab option. This is more of an AZ thing.
Actually my Fox shine OOS reactions are kinda amazing. I really like fighting Falco mains with Fox. I have a pretty good record out of state vs Falcos with my Fox.
Bones, you actually can punish Falcon OOS pretty reliable. Delayed Fair/Bair can be problematic. Gentleman is a free grab/punish unless you're pretty high percent. Vs Falcon I like to either A. judge when he does something and buffer c stick short hop > dair (haven't practiced this since november, though. i have some vids in december before apex where I did this a lot vs jackie and okami.) or I like to just spam shield grab, but also hold down, and mash L+A. What this does is if they miss the timing on their aerial, you grab them. If you're below 50%, you CC grab their gentleman. Most Falcons don't go for aerial > dash dance to beat this option, because most people don't go for the spam CC grab option. This is more of an AZ thing.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Buffering a jump won't help in that situation because your dair will still come out when you input it. All buffering the jump does is make you vulnerable for a few more frames before you input the dair. Almost every Falcon I see relies pretty heavily on DDing after doing aerials on shield, not unlike Marth.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Buffering the jump will simply make you jump as soon as possible. If you're slow to jump already, it will make you vulnerable sooner, but allow you to dair sooner. If you're already jumping asap, nothing should change. The only difference is if you're trying to have maximum momentum in either direction (Hold left/right with control stick, jump with cstick), or consistently jump asap.
Although I'm not really an expert at jumping out of shield. . .
Although I'm not really an expert at jumping out of shield. . .
Bones, I've played every high level falcon except for darkrain. They all go for the gentleman option first when I played them. That's why I mentioned that spamming grab+cc is good at low percent.
The thing about buffer jump is that you can't mess it up. I input things too fast and end up doing spot dodges, and rolls.
Buffer jump is good for:
Easy shine oos
Max momentum fade away aerials.
Full jumping to safety.
Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
The thing about buffer jump is that you can't mess it up. I input things too fast and end up doing spot dodges, and rolls.
Buffer jump is good for:
Easy shine oos
Max momentum fade away aerials.
Full jumping to safety.
Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
Bones0
Smash Legend
The fact that it allows you to dair sooner doesn't actually let you dair sooner because you aren't going to input it until you think the stun has ended and you have left the ground. You can't react to when you jump, so the timing of your dair will be the same regardless of whether or not you buffer the jump.Buffering the jump will simply make you jump as soon as possible. If you're slow to jump already, it will make you vulnerable sooner, but allow you to dair sooner. If you're already jumping asap, nothing should change. The only difference is if you're trying to have maximum momentum in either direction (Hold left/right with control stick, jump with cstick), or consistently jump asap.
Although I'm not really an expert at jumping out of shield. . .
I guess keep CC grabbing if it works for you. I will try it myself if I notice someone using Gentleman vs. me.
If you input shine or dair OoS too fast, then buffering will just make it so you empty jump (input during jumpsquat) or spotdodge (input before shield stun ends). The fact of the matter is you have to know when shield stun ends in order to dair asap like I explained above.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Falco has such ****ty grabs for a high tier character (Fox, Sheik, Puff, Marth, Peach). CC grab poops on Falcon a lot harder in other MUs.
And Bones0 why you are stating something so obvious repeatedly, yes buffering the jump OOS does not explicitly make you do whatever your next input is faster.
However if one component is frame perfect (the buffered jump) and the other one has a normal amount of input error then that sequence will be faster than the sequence where you don't buffer your jump and you do your next input equally imperfect. That is implied and I'm pretty sure everyone figured that out.
conducive to being faster =! not conducive to being faster
And Bones0 why you are stating something so obvious repeatedly, yes buffering the jump OOS does not explicitly make you do whatever your next input is faster.
However if one component is frame perfect (the buffered jump) and the other one has a normal amount of input error then that sequence will be faster than the sequence where you don't buffer your jump and you do your next input equally imperfect. That is implied and I'm pretty sure everyone figured that out.
conducive to being faster =! not conducive to being faster
D
Deleted member
Guest
falco's grabs are pretty good.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I'm so bad at Falco I stopped playing him lol. But I would like to know what you mean since I never had a good out of grab game with Falco. His grabs seem pretty roundabout and don't offer much instant gratification (in my experience).
oukd
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Messages
- 1,464
pretty good doesnt cut it
i want my free dair confirm to infinite combo on every conversion out of neutral
but yeah i do like falco's grabs. landing grabs as falco is pretty free thanks to (imo) laser/shinegrab. following up on them might not be super guaranteed (still a good chance) but you still get decent positional advantage out of his throws. and if you *do* manage a followup then bam 9999% combo aw ye
on the flipside, i feel like going for a strong followup out of a throw is often a hefty commitment, since missing can cost you a lot. but the fact that the option is there feels pretty good imo
i want my free dair confirm to infinite combo on every conversion out of neutral
but yeah i do like falco's grabs. landing grabs as falco is pretty free thanks to (imo) laser/shinegrab. following up on them might not be super guaranteed (still a good chance) but you still get decent positional advantage out of his throws. and if you *do* manage a followup then bam 9999% combo aw ye
on the flipside, i feel like going for a strong followup out of a throw is often a hefty commitment, since missing can cost you a lot. but the fact that the option is there feels pretty good imo
hey man <3333
Falcos grabs are so amazing. <3 every one of his throws either has a direct follow up, or put you at an advantageous position. grabbing a lot also conditions them to play a certain way that gives you the opportunity for hard punishes.
The reason why buffer jump is good is because the jump is what i mess up. because i don't have to worry about shield stun due to buffering the jump, it makes it easy for me just to react to my own jumpsquat.
The reason why buffer jump is good is because the jump is what i mess up. because i don't have to worry about shield stun due to buffering the jump, it makes it easy for me just to react to my own jumpsquat.
D
Deleted member
Guest
falco's grabs are used for positioning more than combos. you can do combos too with upthrow but it's better to put your opponent where you need them to be so you can shift back into falco's "neutral" game (it's never really neutral with falco) and use your ability to control your opponent without committing to leverage something else favorable for you to exploit. think of it like when marth downthrows you off the edge, where it's not really a combo but you're kinda screwed no matter what you do as long as marth covers your options properly? it's like that.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Oksas, I didn't mean to possibly offend you, but you simply don't seem to be as good as your opponent in the videos I watched. The good news is (IMO) that smash is more about learning than having experience, so you always will have the ability to improve. Right now you just seem less experienced, so in your games vs Mizuki, he seemed limited.
Keep at it. :D
Keep at it. :D
She*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWP00pY0DdI
can you critique our falco dittos? I feel really crappy at that match up. x_x
my games vs Cyrain, Kels, Slox, and Bones really helped, but I still feel like I'm doing everything wrong. Or at least too slowly.
Bones0
Smash Legend
That'd be true if you reacted to the jump OoS, but you can't. I keep repeating it because people keep suggesting that buffering a jump will lead to shining or aerialing sooner OoS. Obviously it enables you to do those things faster, but the only way you're going to do them fast enough is if you know exactly when shield stun ends.
I don't think any of his throws combo on any character if they just DI properly. Grabbing only conditions them to play a certain way if they view the grabs as a threat. If they are content with DIing uthrows behind you and not getting punished then they will continue to ***** out their shield until they can punish you back (which will usually be much more critical because it's Falco).
You have a 5-frame reaction time? Damn. That's pretty gdlk.
It's more than conditioning - Falco's throws put him in an advantageous position.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Whoa, she? That's pretty cool and uncommon. Considering you skill level and gender, I don't see how you don't have any money. You are good enough that you would beat most players that people don't know by name, but not so good that you are a known name. Plus being female, many gamers will probably underestimate you. You could probably afford a setup after a day of 1-5$ MMs at a decent sized tourney.
Also, (may have happened already), I hope at some point someone is being stupid/complaining etc because of your gender, and then you style on them. That would be funny as hell. . .
Edit: Whoa, I saw the Falco dittos, and I thought the guy's Falco was much better, so I rewatched the Falcon videos. Turns out when I randomly browsed your matches, I only saw the ones where Oksas did poorly. I thought you 3/4stocked him every time. Darn my laziness. Sorry Oksas.
Also, (may have happened already), I hope at some point someone is being stupid/complaining etc because of your gender, and then you style on them. That would be funny as hell. . .
Edit: Whoa, I saw the Falco dittos, and I thought the guy's Falco was much better, so I rewatched the Falcon videos. Turns out when I randomly browsed your matches, I only saw the ones where Oksas did poorly. I thought you 3/4stocked him every time. Darn my laziness. Sorry Oksas.
The gender thing happened at Apex quite often. Also Kings of Cali 1, a lot of people underestimated me.
I'd potentially make more money, but sometimes those $1 money matches are difficult enough to attempt. I don't like to gamble. I've lived my entire life far below the poverty like (I make 11k a year, just as an FYI) so for me, $1 is a lot. o.o
Also I probably would be a known name if I attended more out of region tournaments. I've beaten Axe, GG7, Jetfour, Okami, and Silly Kyle in-region. I nearly beat M2K at NYTE, and I've had extremely close sets vs the majority of North America's best players.
In friendlies at Zenith I was beating Kels's Fox, Slox's Fox and trading games with his Falco, took some games off Cyrain, was going even with Twebb (he got me in bracket though), took games off M2K, nearly beat Hax$ in pools (phantom shine FTL). Probably a lot more, but I don't remember all that well.
At Apex, I was beating HDL in friendlies (Nearly beat him in bracket, too. Choked last game.
), Was beating Reno, Cyrain, PBnJ, Slox's Fox and Falcon, pretty much every Falcon main who looked at me crosseyed, all of the low and mid tier players in general except for DJN who bodied me, and bodied pretty much everyone at Project M. Kings of Cali I choked vs Tafo game 2,which made me miss bracket. Was beating Tee Ay Eye in friendlies :'(
Historically, I've been one of the top players in AZ since as early as 2010. I'm not really a random.
Also BTW, Axe, Tai, Taj, Wobbles, etc live extremely far away from me. 2 hour drive minimum. I work weekends, which means I can't attend Phoenix tournaments. I don't play with them often, so all I really play with are Oksas and Jackie. Silly Kyle's a little flake and never shows his face.
I'd potentially make more money, but sometimes those $1 money matches are difficult enough to attempt. I don't like to gamble. I've lived my entire life far below the poverty like (I make 11k a year, just as an FYI) so for me, $1 is a lot. o.o
Also I probably would be a known name if I attended more out of region tournaments. I've beaten Axe, GG7, Jetfour, Okami, and Silly Kyle in-region. I nearly beat M2K at NYTE, and I've had extremely close sets vs the majority of North America's best players.
In friendlies at Zenith I was beating Kels's Fox, Slox's Fox and trading games with his Falco, took some games off Cyrain, was going even with Twebb (he got me in bracket though), took games off M2K, nearly beat Hax$ in pools (phantom shine FTL). Probably a lot more, but I don't remember all that well.
At Apex, I was beating HDL in friendlies (Nearly beat him in bracket, too. Choked last game.
), Was beating Reno, Cyrain, PBnJ, Slox's Fox and Falcon, pretty much every Falcon main who looked at me crosseyed, all of the low and mid tier players in general except for DJN who bodied me, and bodied pretty much everyone at Project M. Kings of Cali I choked vs Tafo game 2,which made me miss bracket. Was beating Tee Ay Eye in friendlies :'(Historically, I've been one of the top players in AZ since as early as 2010. I'm not really a random.
Also BTW, Axe, Tai, Taj, Wobbles, etc live extremely far away from me. 2 hour drive minimum. I work weekends, which means I can't attend Phoenix tournaments. I don't play with them often, so all I really play with are Oksas and Jackie. Silly Kyle's a little flake and never shows his face.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
@the buffer jump - dair issue:
All of the people who still don't get why Bones is right: Think about it that way: how many frames after you hit up on the control stick do you hit dair? Hint: You're always trying for the same number, so no matter when the jump actually happens, your dair will happen precisely that number later after the input. So if you press it nine frames later, your dair may be delayed 0 to 4 frames, depending on when hitstun ends.
If you claim, that you always manage to input the dair exactly the frame you're leaving the ground, you should give the concept of buffering some thought. It's an attempt to not needing to be frame perfect. If you press dair exactly five frames after hitting up on the c-stick, you've got two possible outcomes: Either you timed your jump perfectly (in which case there was no need to buffer), or you still input the jump in hitstun and it'll happen with a slight delay (when the hitstun ends) and subsequently the dair won't happen because it's input while you're still in jumpsquat.
You could gain speed by having a two step sequence of a buffered and non-buffered thing, if the buffer-able thing would come second, but not the other way around.
All of the people who still don't get why Bones is right: Think about it that way: how many frames after you hit up on the control stick do you hit dair? Hint: You're always trying for the same number, so no matter when the jump actually happens, your dair will happen precisely that number later after the input. So if you press it nine frames later, your dair may be delayed 0 to 4 frames, depending on when hitstun ends.
If you claim, that you always manage to input the dair exactly the frame you're leaving the ground, you should give the concept of buffering some thought. It's an attempt to not needing to be frame perfect. If you press dair exactly five frames after hitting up on the c-stick, you've got two possible outcomes: Either you timed your jump perfectly (in which case there was no need to buffer), or you still input the jump in hitstun and it'll happen with a slight delay (when the hitstun ends) and subsequently the dair won't happen because it's input while you're still in jumpsquat.
You could gain speed by having a two step sequence of a buffered and non-buffered thing, if the buffer-able thing would come second, but not the other way around.
you buffer with cstick up, not control stick up, broski.
it's not so much that it's faster, so much is that it's easier to not mess up.
you're holding cstick up while shielding, because you'll jump as soon as the game allows you, then entering dair at the first possible frame. i use the jumpsquat animation as my visual cue to input dair for example.
an alternate strategy is just buffering a full jump back. this is extremely safe vs pretty much the entire cast.
it's not so much that it's faster, so much is that it's easier to not mess up.
you're holding cstick up while shielding, because you'll jump as soon as the game allows you, then entering dair at the first possible frame. i use the jumpsquat animation as my visual cue to input dair for example.
an alternate strategy is just buffering a full jump back. this is extremely safe vs pretty much the entire cast.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Let me have Bones answer this:
Regarding the c-stick: I never claimed otherwise; even explicitly stated the use of the c-stick.
you said control stick. >_>
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Geez, yeah, I messed it up. But later I actually write c-stick, it's hopefully kinda obvious which one I meant then, isn't it?
Also: To illustrate how ridiculous reacting to stuff in 5 frames is: With that time you would be able to side-step grabs on reaction. Not boring Samus tether grabs but rather normal 7 frames standing grabs.
Also: To illustrate how ridiculous reacting to stuff in 5 frames is: With that time you would be able to side-step grabs on reaction. Not boring Samus tether grabs but rather normal 7 frames standing grabs.
i used to spot dodge grabs, but playing against people like gg7 who fake the grab to knee got me ***** so much in 09/2010 that i stopped spot dodging on purpose entirely. >_>
Edit*
But yeah, I used to/probably could still spot dodge the grabs on reaction.
Taj does when he plays spacies.
Edit*
But yeah, I used to/probably could still spot dodge the grabs on reaction.
Taj does when he plays spacies.
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
is upthrow bair guaranteed, thats the best follow up cuz stage control and fluidness is key
i also dont know when people are suppose to buffer, but i feel like buffering full jump atfer an arial on shield is a good thing to do which i see alot of falcos like to jump out of marth and shieks shield.
and lazer grab will forever be broken until everyone starts powershielding alot of lasers for it to have and impact
i also dont know when people are suppose to buffer, but i feel like buffering full jump atfer an arial on shield is a good thing to do which i see alot of falcos like to jump out of marth and shieks shield.
and lazer grab will forever be broken until everyone starts powershielding alot of lasers for it to have and impact
It's actually a 50/50 if they can grab you first. I get grabbed out of laser grabs by peach and sheik a lot.
Jetfour will sdi the laser away and out space the grab sometimes. New tech.
Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
Jetfour will sdi the laser away and out space the grab sometimes. New tech.
Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
Bones0
Smash Legend
The average reaction time is between 12-13 frames. Reacting in 5 frames isn't feasible at all.
Your excuse doesn't make sense anyway. If you could react to grabs, then faking a grab shouldn't make you spotdodge... If you spotdodged before he actually started the grab, then you're obviously not reacting. You're predicting.
Like I've said before, I don't think Falco can combo anyone out of uthrow if they simply DI behind him so that no lasers hit. If anything, they might even be able to FF bair you before your throw lag ends. I can't test it effectively on my own.
I use buffer FHs all the time. It's great for when you want to jump at the beginning of a match, following a tech/tech roll, or after an opponent hits your shield from below a plat. I used it quite often in my matches with PBnJ and M2K if you want some in-game examples.
You're welcome not to believe me, bones.
Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2